A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[SeanF]

Does anyone else have the impression that Zuri is an Eater?

[A True Kaniggit]

What with her chomping her teeth at people? It crossed my mind. 

 

Also thought it was funny Orso got called the “Little Lamb” 

Trying to murky up the waters concerning Rikke’s prophecies, with another lamb about. 

[Crazydog7]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Does anyone else have the impression that Zuri is an Eater?

No just a capitalist although to be fair not  much difference between them and an eater.

 

The scene with Leo at the Capital was interesting.  Good to see that certain nobles of the kingdom aren't as house broken as the first of the Magi likes to think they are.  

And in a rare moment of (almost) empathy from Bayaz he was the only one that took Rikke at her word when she spoke of the long eye. 

[Rhom]

It crossed my mind on Zuri.

It also crossed my mind on Judge.  She was described as having black eyes and the only other real reference I can think of to black eyes in the book was the little Gurkish girl in the hand off chapter that remembered the Eaters with the black eyes.  There was also something more powerful about her than just being a crazy bitch in a breastplate.  Of course, I know that having black eyes is not a requisite for a Eater (as evidenced by Sulfur's mismatched eyes.)

[Rhom]

30 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Trying to murky up the waters concerning Rikke’s prophecies, with another lamb about. 

Yeah, in my early post in this thread I mentioned that I thought it was almost wrapped up entirely in the first couple of chapters... but then she reiterated it later and I thought it was more significant.  And I also don't know who the Owl would be.   

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 9/17/2019 at 7:09 AM, Gaston de Foix said:

3. What character growth did Savine demonstrate? Maybe the point was that she didn't/couldn't.  But you would think her experience would lead her to advocate for a more liberal policy towards the Breakers/Burners.  Nope: her lesson was to be more ruthless.  She and Stour Nightfall have much in common. 

 

Meh not really. She’s a person who prides herself on control. She does not allow her patriarch or mother to choose her husband, she rather than take comfort in her adoptive father’s power goes out and accumulates her own economic empire, she even keeps up fencing to make her body strong, and capable of defending itself should the need arise. The revolt made her feel the most powerless she’s ever felt in her entire life. Her reaction to double down on maintaining/securing power at whatever the cost, is understandable even if misguided.

It fits her character. 

Its’ something some(key word some not all or even most) people who’ve suffered abuse do to others. They inflict the same level cruelty.

Think of Glocka. He Was tortured by the Gurkish and would eventually become a torturer I suspect to establish some sense of control.

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh not really. She’s a person who prides herself on control. She does not allow her patriarch or mother to choose her husband, she rather than take comfort in her adoptive father’s power goes out and accumulates her own economic empire, she even keeps up fencing to make her body strong, and capable of defending itself should the need arise. The revolt made her feel the most powerless she’s ever felt in her entire life. Her reaction to double down on maintaining/securing power at whatever the cost, is understandable even if misguided.

It fits her character. 

Its’ something some(key word some not all or even most) people who’ve suffered abuse do to others. They inflict the same level cruelty.

Think of Glocka. He Was tortured by the Gurkish and would eventually become a torturer I suspect to establish some sense of control.

 

I didn't get the impression that Savine wanted to be more ruthless towards the workers.

She's certainly not a nice person, but I was getting the impression that seeing at first hand, both the conditions in Vallimir's factory, and the living standards of the poor, were helping her to realise there are limits to how far you can push people.

Any intelligent capitalist can grasp that reform is preferable to being strung up.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I didn't get the impression that Savine wanted to be more ruthless towards the workers.

She's certainly not a nice person, but I was getting the impression that seeing at first hand, both the conditions in Vallimir's factory, and the living standards of the poor, were helping her to realise there are limits to how far you can push people.

Any intelligent capitalist can grasp that reform is preferable to being strung up.

 

“And yet living this way did not make Savine sorry for the people who were forced to do it every day. Who did it in the many buildings just like this one she profited from all across the Union. It only made her desperate never to live this way herself again. Perhaps that made her selfish. Wicked. Evil, even. While she fled whimpering through the city on the day of the uprising, she had sworn to a God she did not believe in that she would be good, if it meant she could live. Now she was happy to be evil, if it meant she could be clean.”

Excerpt From
A Little Hatred
Joe Abercrombie
She imo has learned nothing. She’s taking the erroneous lesson of if she was more ruthless, more disregarding of other human beings, she’d be better protected.

Before this uprising she proposed improving the living conditions of the children under her employ if only a little. Post-uprising we don’t see her try to make any sort of change within her businesses. 

Intelligent people can believe in some really heinous ideas especially when it comes to their own immediate profit.

Reform that could cut into economic gains is less tempting to rich ruthless capitalists than simply making the workers too afraid to do anything. 

 

[Gaston de Foix]

40 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

“And yet living this way did not make Savine sorry for the people who were forced to do it every day. Who did it in the many buildings just like this one she profited from all across the Union. It only made her desperate never to live this way herself again. Perhaps that made her selfish. Wicked. Evil, even. While she fled whimpering through the city on the day of the uprising, she had sworn to a God she did not believe in that she would be good, if it meant she could live. Now she was happy to be evil, if it meant she could be clean.”

Excerpt From
A Little Hatred
Joe Abercrombie
 

It's very human...very Glokta-esque. Except she doesn't have his excuse/justification of being in continuous physical pain, or indeed the self-doubt he expresses in his internal monologue. 

The Young Lamb seems to be Orso. The other Lamb is certainly not young anymore.  I took the owl to be Rikke herself, since owls symbolize wisdom, which is closely related to knowledge. 

[SeanF]

57 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

“And yet living this way did not make Savine sorry for the people who were forced to do it every day. Who did it in the many buildings just like this one she profited from all across the Union. It only made her desperate never to live this way herself again. Perhaps that made her selfish. Wicked. Evil, even. While she fled whimpering through the city on the day of the uprising, she had sworn to a God she did not believe in that she would be good, if it meant she could live. Now she was happy to be evil, if it meant she could be clean.”

Excerpt From
A Little Hatred
Joe Abercrombie
She imo has learned nothing. She’s taking the erroneous lesson of if she was more ruthless, more disregarding of other human beings, she’d be better protected.

Before this uprising she proposed improving the living conditions of the children under her employ if only a little. Post-uprising we don’t see her try to make any sort of change within her businesses. 

Intelligent people can believe in some really heinous ideas especially when it comes to their own immediate profit.

Reform that could cut into economic gains is less tempting to rich ruthless capitalists than simply making the workers too afraid to do anything. 

 

I'm not suggesting she would ever feel sorry for them.  But, she's an intelligent woman.  Just as her father realised that he couldn't hold Dagoska if 80% of the population were treated like shit, she might come to realise that things have to change if she wants them to stay the same.

In real life, that's why many rich and powerful people accept reforms, not from the goodness of their hearts.  

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I'm not suggesting she would ever feel sorry for them.  But, she's an intelligent woman.  Just as her father realised that he couldn't hold Dagoska if 80% of the population were treated like shit, she might come to realise that things have to change if she wants them to stay the same.

Her father who rather than budge on providing any sort of economic reform to appease the common man in the Union  has met any sort open grievance by them about the abuses the workers face with utter brutality?

The man who espouses that it’d be wrong to give workers a little bit more power given they would just ask for more?

Dagoska was doomed from the start. Glocka realized that. Nothing he did really mattered. Hell the poor girl he showed mercy to and tried to save turned out to be an enemy that would have and nearly did kill him. 

Savine’s inner thoughts show her thinking her failing was not being ruthless enough.

She could change her mind. After all she is human. But at this point her worldview on how to treat workers is still both gross, and perhaps in the long-term impractical.

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

It's very human...very Glokta-esque. Except she doesn't have his excuse/justification of being in continuous physical pain, or indeed the self-doubt he expresses in his internal monologue. 

I don’t accept Glokta’s torture being a justification for any of the heinous shit he’s done. Other people have suffered. Have been tortured and maimed. And not proceed to enact the same evils they endured on others.

We could understand Glocka’s motivation. But there’s a fine difference between understanding one’s motivation, and seeing that motivation as justification.

Like Ro remarked on hearing of abusive childhood of the man who sold her and her brother; having suffered abuse should make you less likely to hurt others not more.

Glocka’s  self-doubt is less to do with any feelings of morality and more to do with his increasing apathy concerning his work. Initially he got into torture to reestablish a sense of control, power, but overtime that feeling has waned and at that point he was just going through the motions.

2 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

The Young Lamb seems to be Orso. The other Lamb is certainly not young anymore.  I took the owl to be Rikke herself, since owls symbolize wisdom, which is closely related to knowledge. 

Hmm, why not Leo or Stout?

I mean in RCJ Logen went by Lamb and both men aspire to be like Logen.

Hell, Leo even spares Stout-something that the B9 was known to do with his opponents in the ring.

True he was dizzy as hell from getting his ass beat by Stout but still even in that state he could not help but emulate his hero. Anyone else find Caulder choosing Clove and Wonderful to try to manage Stout weird?

Like Stout is a violent, chauvinistic, reckless brute.

He’s immediately likely to brush off Wonderful because she’s an old woman regardless of her accomplishments as a warrior, and wonderful herself has a short-fuse when dealing with idiotic men making her particularly not up to the task of dealing with Stout.

Clove is an out of shape swords-master with no great reputation, and constantly espouses seeing no real importance in glory, and admits to being rather cowardly.

The two don’t even try to modulate  themselves to try to appeal to Stout.

They mostly tell him his plans are stupid and Clove half-heartily preaches how his own lack of self-caution, and want for glory has cost nearly cost him his head and how war is stupid and it’s good to be a coward and blah blah.

I found myself comparing Clove’s and Wonderful’s management of Stout with a another story I’ve read where one of the side plots concerned a merchant who was tasked by a queen keep her idiot son,  a young, reckless, prince from ruining his own conquest. The merchant appealed to the Prince’s weaknesses and vices. The merchant was submissive, made the prince feel in control and framed certain actions, in a way would appeal to the young prince’s worldview, he structured all his arguments to be ones that would resonate with the prince even they weren’t  ones he necessarily believed in.  Because the merchant knows he’s on thin ice.  The prince could kill the merchant(It was annoying to me Clove was as candid throughout the war with Stout given if Stout decided to torture and kill Clove, no one would stop Stout), with no real repercussions and because that’s the best way to get royalty to do what you want.

Hell think of Barristan and Ned convincing Robert not to fight. The most rational argument of he’s likely to get himself killed would not work so the two had to make an argument that appealed to Robert’s sense of pride.

I have to say I find it weird Savine expressed doubts concerning the existence of a god weird given the presence of Bayaaz in society. 

Also, I found it weird hearing about the prophet having sons. I don’t know why. But it’s got me thinking if Bayaaz has had kids and who’d they be. Like are each of his apprentices his sons? I don’t know I’m just spit balling ideas.

[BigFatCoward]

Finished it, loved it, going to read it again in a couple of weeks to look for a bit of extra detail. 

I still like Clover, better one of them lives than neither. 

A bit sad for Jezal, spent his whole life terrified, married to a woman that hated him, he was a bit of an arse but he deserved a blaze of glory rather than whatever mischief did him in.

Was relieved when it turned out to be Scale and not Dogman, the only decent person from the first trilogy still alive.

 

[Crazydog7]

I do like that Shivers is now working for the Dog Man after all that time doing black work first for Dow and then for Calder.  And Leo's mom managed to own every scene she was in.  I was watching I Cladius and she kept reminding me of Augustus's wife.  Old by this point in the story but she didn't fuck around. 

 

I have no doubt that Crawl was dead by this point in the story but it was funny as hell to see that Hardbread was still alive. 

[Gaston de Foix]

13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Hmm, why not Leo or Stout?

I mean in RCJ Logen went by Lamb and both men aspire to be like Logen.

Also, I found it weird hearing about the prophet having sons. I don’t know why. But it’s got me thinking if Bayaaz has had kids and who’d they be. Like are each of his apprentices his sons? I don’t know I’m just spit balling ideas.

Because they are already identified as wolf and lion in a separate vision Rikke has at the same time. 

I don't think Khalul has children: the reference is to Eaters.  Interesting thought about Bayaz having children.  I have often wondered, similarly, how all the Magi are so long-lived. We never really get an answer to that question. 

[A True Kaniggit]

So are we thinking that Khalul’s rumored “battle with a demon” was Ferro finally attacking him?

[Gaston de Foix]

16 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

So are we thinking that Khalul’s rumored “battle with a demon” was Ferro finally attacking him?

I assumed so.  Khalul is still around which doesn't bode well for Ferro's survival. 

I wonder what would happen if the House of the Maker is re-opened? Would Tolomei and/or Yulwei still be alive? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Because they are already identified as wolf and lion in a separate vision Rikke has at the same time. 

I don't think Khalul has children: the reference is to Eaters.  Interesting thought about Bayaz having children.  I have often wondered, similarly, how all the Magi are so long-lived. We never really get an answer to that question. 

Oh ok looking back I understand where my confusion was in terms of the prophet;

“Some say the Prophet was killed by a demon. Some say he overcame her and is recovering from the battle. The emperor has been cast down, and his five sons struggle with each other. The provinces declare their independence and look to their own survival. Warlords and bandits spring up everywhere”

I initially read that as Khaulu having sons he literally sired. 

7 hours ago, BigFatCoward said:

A bit sad for Jezal, spent his whole life terrified, married to a woman that hated him, he was a bit of an arse but he deserved a blaze of glory rather than whatever mischief did him in.

Meh, In the first book I’ll grant you he’s a bit of a brat(though I still found myself sympathizing with his plight and being peer-pressured by those around him-specifically Ardee to competitively play in a sport he doesn’t want)  at the end of the first trilogy I could confidently say I find Jezal to have turned into a good person. Him frantically searching through the rubble of his city trying to rescue survivors is possibly one of the most beautiful things in the series imo. He genuinely grew to care for the common man, and tried(albeit perhaps vainly), to convince Glocka to use government power to help his citizenry. It was sad to see him talk about the woes of the workers with Orso. He clearly still cares and wants to help his people but realizes he can’t.

The saddest thing to me isn’t that he was unable to die glorious. It’s that he didn’t have the opportunity to help his people.

 

[A True Kaniggit]

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oh ok looking back I understand where my confusion was in terms of the prophet;

“The emperor has been cast down, and his five sons struggle with each other. The provinces declare their independence and look to their own survival. Warlords and bandits spring up everywhere. It”

 

I initially read that as Khaulu having sons he literally sired.

Yeah. The emperor and Khalul are two separate people. So this quote is pertaining to the emperor’s biological children.

Khalul as “The Prophet” was the power behind the Gurkish throne the same way Bayaz is the power behind the Union throne. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

6 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Yeah. The emperor and Khalul are two separate people. So this quote is pertaining to the emperors biological children.

Khalul as “The Prophet” was the power behind the Gurkish throne the same way Bayuz is the power behind the Union throne. 

Damnit I knew that. Jesus Christ, first I misread the passage, then I wrongly quote  the passage I misread. 

[Gaston de Foix]

34 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Yeah. The emperor and Khalul are two separate people. So this quote is pertaining to the emperor’s biological children.

Khalul as “The Prophet” was the power behind the Gurkish throne the same way Bayaz is the power behind the Union throne. 

The Emperor was also Ferro's abuser.  It follows to reason that she first killed him and then went hunting for Khalul.