Jump to content
Crazydog7

A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

Give the man a break. Running the Inquisition and the Union would strain the capabilities of even the most capable. Something is bound to fall through the cracks.

No. Because who Orso fucks, and risk getting  pregnant could be something that tears the union apart. If Orso sires a royal bastard onto the wrong person, that could easily be used as tool to usurp the current royal family. If he’s seduced and becomes enamored by an agent of the prophet or someone with ideals if Orso adopts could pose a problem for Glocka’s/Bayaaz’s plans. 

I mean Savine herself was only adopted by Glocka with the justification to protect her and Ardee from those who’d kill them as a threat.

Hell its not especially hard to make sure Orso’s shenanigans concerning  won’t cause too much a problem.  All Glocka had to do was threaten Hildi with torture/death if she didn’t inform him on everything going on with Orso’s day to day including who he has an affair with.

Either she complies, or she doesn’t and she’s killed then replaced with someone more compliant.

7 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

Might sound like I'm arguing semantics, but can we truly said that a man is in the closet when he himself doesn't seem to realize that he is gay (or at least bi)?

 BTW, after his last scene with Savine, it also seems to me that Freud would have a field day with that guy.

15 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I would say yes. In the closet simply means denying your sexuality to the world. 

 

7 hours ago, AzureOwl said:

Post-Valveck we only see her engage in the one business activity. And it didn't involve the workers.

Too little evidence yet to form a conclusion. 

On 9/21/2019 at 9:33 AM, Mark Antony said:

Yes. That’s the point. She does not come to see economic reform to be in her benefit. Her only lesson is that she wasn’t ruthless enough.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. On Savine:  she continues her ownership of numerous business interests and does nothing to improve the conditions, despite now understanding precisely how bad they are.  She is now even more morally culpable. 

2.  On Orso's fucking:  If he really has slept with 5000 women, then Glokta has solved the problem of royal bastards.  There must be dozens, and not particularly exceptional  in this generation notwithstanding any form of contraception around.  Maybe a royal bastard in House Isher would be a potent threat for the Crown, but there seems no suggestion that anyone has actually made an effort to trap Orso into a marriage that way. 

3.  On the Magi (which is what really interests me): It's fair that we don't know anything about the terms of the truce between Khalul and Bayaz (and whether Khalul has sent his agents to Glokta's household, for example).  And we don't know the exact nature of the problems Cawneil is creating for Bayaz.  But we do know from Red Country that Zacharius is also walking in Juven's footsteps, raising up an emperor/empire which is now rising in power.  I'm less interested in the politics than in the backstory, and Joe's ability to tantalize across seven books is incredible: 

1. What happened to Bedesh?

2.  Was Kanedias a power hungry monster (as the First Law trilogy suggests?) Or was he the civilized influence that the Red Country suggests? And if both, why was he dismissive to those in the Union and supportive of those in the Red Country? 

3.  What was the dragon supposed to do?

4.  Where is Jaremias (Kanedias' apprentice)?

5.  What happened between Shenkt and Bayaz?

The key players are still hidden behind the curtain, and we know so little about them still...

Edited by Gaston de Foix

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

1. On Savine:  she continues her ownership of numerous business interests and does nothing to improve the conditions, despite now understanding precisely how bad they are.  She is now even more morally culpable. 

2.  On Orso's fucking:  If he really has slept with 5000 women, then Glokta has solved the problem of royal bastards.  There must be dozens, and not particularly exceptional  in this generation notwithstanding any form of contraception around.  Maybe a royal bastard in House Isher would be a potent threat for the Crown, but there seems no suggestion that anyone has actually made an effort to trap Orso into a marriage that way. 

3.  On the Magi (which is what really interests me): It's fair that we don't know anything about the terms of the truce between Khalul and Bayaz (and whether Khalul has sent his agents to Glokta's household, for example).  And we don't know the exact nature of the problems Cawneil is creating for Bayaz.  But we do know from Red Country that Zacharius is also walking in Juven's footsteps, raising up an emperor/empire which is now rising in power.  I'm less interested in the politics than in the backstory, and Joe's ability to tantalize across seven books is incredible: 

1. What happened to Bedesh?

2.  Was Kanedias a power hungry monster (as the First Law trilogy suggests?) Or was he the civilized influence that the Red Country suggests? And if both, why was he dismissive to those in the Union and supportive of those in the Red Country? 

3.  What was the dragon supposed to do?

4.  Where is Jaremias (Kanedias' apprentice)?

5.  What happened between Shenkt and Bayaz?

The key players are still hidden behind the curtain, and we know so little about them still...

Now that Gurkhul is a busted flush (at least, until one of Uthman's sons emerges victorious) it would be interesting to see Khalul try to take control of the Union, via the Inquisition.

It was interesting as well to see that the Union did not suffer total defeat in Styria, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/19/2019 at 6:41 AM, Gaston de Foix said:

Point. 

There is more to Risinau's conversion than we have seen. I personally think it's Pike who is the Weaver, our worm in the apple, trying to overthrow the Union from within. 

I like this, before I started the book I'd seen on Joe's blog we were heading for some French revolution style storyline and I hoped it would be Glokta secretly fanning the flames in order to free the Union from Bayaz. I'm certain that's not the case but Pike is interesting, especially as the leaders of the Breakers seemed well aware of him. That Glokta was wrong about Risinau's character but is also frequently alluded too as never being wrong about a character indicates something fishy. 

So we're looking at an independant Angland allied with Stour taking over Adua from the visions of the flag over the towers. I worry about Leo's signs of racism if that happens.

The boy with Calder I'm thinking is another of his sons. We know his wife dies when Stour is young as Calder uses it as an excuse for indulging the boy. We know from The Heroes that Calder is a lover not a fighter so I would be shocked if he didn't have a mistress. It is totally reasonable that Calder would keep other children/rivals a secret from those not in his most inner circle. I think the description of the boy also matches that of Calder. I also wonder if he is the Owl, having been described with big eyes. I do hope the Owl doesn't turn out to be Bayaz putting Orso in his place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished the book! I greatly enjoyed it, and having recently reread the trilogy and Best Served Cold (and now on to the Heroes), it's really amazing to see how much the quality of Abercrombie's writing has improved. The chapter describing the revolution from many different perspectives may be the most harrowing chapter Abercrombie has written. I couldn't sleep after reading that- I can't remember the last time a book really affected me in this way. It's a first book of a trilogy, so of course there's a lot of setup, but I thought the pacing was also very well done (until the end, more on that below).

I thought the cast was generally excellent. Clover, Orso, and Savine are all among the best POV characters Abercrombie has created, imo. I also enjoyed Broad and Vick a lot. Rikke and Leo I'm less convinced of; they weren't bad, but at times they felt like they were in their own, much less serious world, with a clear villain and a lot of sex scenes. I can't say I really bought the "friendship" between Stour Nightfall and Leo. And if I have one bigger criticism of the book, it's that the book kind of peters to an end in Adua with so much time spent on this love square (pentagon if we include Jurand and Leo's closeted sexuality), though the last two chapters are pretty explosive. 

As for Savine's character... nothing she shows after her experience in the revolt shows that she's becoming a better person. Which is understandable, and written well, but she goes in one chapter from pleading for her life and promising that she'll be better to abandoning an orphan child in the next. And then she doesn't show any indication of wanting to change the systems of oppression she's responsible for. Like Glokta, she's pretty evil.

My impression is that the weaver is Bayaz; the description of the weaver having a ton of money put my mind right on Valint and Balk. We also see that Bayaz stirred up, or at least allowed for, Calder's northern war. Whatever his agenda is at the moment, he doesn't seem to mind weakening the union to get at it, especially if he is responsible for Jezal's death. On the other hand, I do like the theory that it's Pike and that this is Glokta's way of trying to get the union out of Bayaz's control. 

All in all, this is a great book and I'm very happy to be back in the world of The First Law. It's going to be a long year's wait...  

   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

So we're looking at an independant Angland allied with Stour taking over Adua from the visions of the flag over the towers. I worry about Leo's signs of racism if that happens.

The boy with Calder I'm thinking is another of his sons. We know his wife dies when Stour is young as Calder uses it as an excuse for indulging the boy. We know from The Heroes that Calder is a lover not a fighter so I would be shocked if he didn't have a mistress. It is totally reasonable that Calder would keep other children/rivals a secret from those not in his most inner circle. I think the description of the boy also matches that of Calder. I also wonder if he is the Owl, having been described with big eyes. I do hope the Owl doesn't turn out to be Bayaz putting Orso in his place.

1.  Do you have a page/chapter reference for the vision of the flag over the towers? I missed that. 

2.  It could well be one of Calder's by-blows. He's about the right age.  He might also be Black Dow's bastard, possibly? or Stranger-come-Knocking's son with Aliz?

3. My theory that the weaver is Pike (which I am myself only weakly committed to) is that Pike is running a long con on Glokta and the Union by rising up the ranks while fomenting revolution. 

4.  Bayaz's willingness to allow the North to invade Angland suggests that he sees these wars as forest fires.  But why would he want to destroy the Union he has created through revolution? Or maybe he is seeking to suborn the revolution from within. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Gaston de Foix said:

2.  On Orso's fucking:  If he really has slept with 5000 women, then Glokta has solved the problem of royal bastards.  There must be dozens, and not particularly exceptional  in this generation notwithstanding any form of contraception around.  Maybe a royal bastard in House Isher would be a potent threat for the Crown, but there seems no suggestion that anyone has actually made an effort to trap Orso into a marriage that way. 

Who said anything about marriage? Princes and Kings don’t ever have shot-gun weddings. If they impregnate a woman even a noble  the most they could hoped to do is make sure is well raised, nourished, and given a position of power when they come to court(assuming they’re a favored bastard or a bastard with a noble for a mother).

There is still a danger present in the type of  bastard that comes from a king and noblewoman. It could pose a legitimate challenger for the throne.

Jezal is known to be bastard, but because his mother is thought to be a nobleman, he looks and acts like a nobleman, and he’s been brought up as a nobleman, him becoming king isn’t too an inappropriate an idea to have happened.

11 hours ago, RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon said:

The boy with Calder I'm thinking is another of his sons. We know his wife dies when Stour is young as Calder uses it as an excuse for indulging the boy. We know from The Heroes that Calder is a lover not a fighter so I would be shocked if he didn't have a mistress. It is totally reasonable that Calder would keep other children/rivals a secret from those not in his most inner circle. I think the description of the boy also matches that of Calder. I also wonder if he is the Owl, having been described with big eyes. I do hope the Owl doesn't turn out to be Bayaz putting Orso in his place.

I’d legitimately be surprised if that is the case.  if Calder decided now to reveal another favored son of his to the world.

The boy has no name. No reputation. Say what you will about Stout people knows he’s a strong warrior. The type of warrior that would be recognized as being someone who could lead others to power.

Yes, there will be those who defect from Stout due to his kin slaying, but how many would through their weight to an untested boy king in waiting. 

Hell I honestly think Calder deciding not to have Shivers murder Scale is largely because Scale was able to play the part of king Calder could never play and Calder recognized that; that of a great warrior. Scale(like Jezal) presented the people a face they could respect/fear. Not to say he felt no affection for his brother-he should know a man like him fulfills no one's ideas on what a king should be.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liked the book overall. My main criticism is that it was almost too tightly plotted in how it resolved its central set pieces and then basically reset the board. The first trilogy might have been a little more arbitrary in its act breaks, but at least there was a sense of continuity in the overt conflicts like the Union vs. Bethod while the more intrigue laden plots simmered beneath the surface. The episodic nature of the conflicts in A Little Hatred leave the intrigue to carry most of the weight in terms of the ongoing story. I wasn't left all that curious about what Stour would do with his new chain or what Orso would do with his new crown because JA can go virtually anywhere given how he resolved most of what this book initially opened. The main question driving everything is what Bayaz is up to, and we've only been given a few clues to go on. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Dez said:

Liked the book overall. My main criticism is that it was almost too tightly plotted in how it resolved its central set pieces and then basically reset the board. The first trilogy might have been a little more arbitrary in its act breaks, but at least there was a sense of continuity in the overt conflicts like the Union vs. Bethod while the more intrigue laden plots simmered beneath the surface. The episodic nature of the conflicts in A Little Hatred leave the intrigue to carry most of the weight in terms of the ongoing story. I wasn't left all that curious about what Stour would do with his new chain or what Orso would do with his new crown because JA can go virtually anywhere given how he resolved most of what this book initially opened. The main question driving everything is what Bayaz is up to, and we've only been given a few clues to go on. 

 

 

This is an interesting way of putting it, and I think reflects some of my dissatisfaction with the last quarter of the book, its pacing, and its focus. I was very excited that the war in the north was over with a quarter of the book to go, because I didn't want to read another trilogy about a war over Angland, especially after The Heroes.  I was hoping the end of the war would lead to exciting new developments- but things stalled plotwise after that until the second to last chapter, as they did for the popular uprising and politics in the Union until the last chapter. I'm all for focus on character development, but you're right that it all felt a tad too neat, and it's still hard to say what this overall trilogy is going to be about.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though I feel a bit odd knowing that the author visits this board from time to time, I'll offer my thoughts:

1. I don't think there's a better author in the genre at injecting humor into his writing. I'm frequently screenshotting (I read on my phone) bits of phrasing to send to a friend. The humor is clever and without equal in my opinion.

2. I didn't love the choice to use so many children of characters from prior books as main characters. Feels a little too Terry Brooksian to me. For example, there's really no reason to have Rikke be the Dogman's daughter. 

3. Joe writes great battle scenes. We all know this.

4. I felt myself smirking when I read the section where Rikke and Savine swapped boy toys. I dunno, it felt a little soap opera I guess. Part of me wonders if Joe was writing this with a TV adaptation in mind.

Overall, I quite enjoyed the book. Looking forward to next year!

PS The Weaver is Bayaz. Book it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ninefingers said:

Though I feel a bit odd knowing that the author visits this board from time to time, I'll offer my thoughts:

1. I don't think there's a better author in the genre at injecting humor into his writing. I'm frequently screenshotting (I read on my phone) bits of phrasing to send to a friend. The humor is clever and without equal in my opinion.

 

Most definitely. I laughed so much while reading this book. It's hard to compare to all his other books, especially since I'm only just re-reading Heroes now and haven't read Red Country in years, but it may be his funniest book with the exception of Best Served Cold. Clover and Orso especially had many hilarious scenes, and lines of dialogue. Abercrombie's humour is definitely a reason he remains one of my favourite fantasy authors.

 

Edited by Caligula_K3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

I will if you can give me a motive...

It's hard to give a precise motive at this point, but it's probably worth pointing to Sulfur's conversation with Calder here. Bayaz is ok with weakening the Union as long as he can benefit from it and it leads to the transformation in Union society that he wants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It's hard to give a precise motive at this point, but it's probably worth pointing to Sulfur's conversation with Calder here. Bayaz is ok with weakening the Union as long as he can benefit from it and it leads to the transformation in Union society that he wants.

And don't forget Rikke's vision of a bald weaver with a bottomless purse.  I pretty much figured that sealed it as only one possibility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I’d legitimately be surprised if that is the case.  if Calder decided now to reveal another favored son of his to the world.

The boy has no name. No reputation. Say what you will about Stout people knows he’s a strong warrior. The type of warrior that would be recognized as being someone who could lead others to power.

Yes, there will be those who defect from Stout due to his kin slaying, but how many would through their weight to an untested boy king in waiting. 

Hell I honestly think Calder deciding not to have Shivers murder Scale is largely because Scale was able to play the part of king Calder could never play and Calder recognized that; that of a great warrior. Scale(like Jezal) presented the people a face they could respect/fear. Not to say he felt no affection for his brother-he should know a man like him fulfills no one's ideas on what a king should be.

Yes I didn't say anything about Calder putting the boy forward. Calder is crystal clear Stour is the future of the North, but that doesn't stop him having a bastard, which knowing his character I think is likely or him hiding the boy from the world which knowing Calder's past is also likely. 

None of this of course could stop the boy maybe being important in the future and he seemed to warrant an introduction of sorts. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Dez said:

Liked the book overall. My main criticism is that it was almost too tightly plotted in how it resolved its central set pieces and then basically reset the board. The first trilogy might have been a little more arbitrary in its act breaks, but at least there was a sense of continuity in the overt conflicts like the Union vs. Bethod while the more intrigue laden plots simmered beneath the surface. The episodic nature of the conflicts in A Little Hatred leave the intrigue to carry most of the weight in terms of the ongoing story.

 

 

I respectfully think we can't really form this opinion until we've read all three in this trilogy. 

I see the revolution as the Bethod war in the first trilogy, kicking off in the first book and working through all three. The northern plot is like Ghurkal. We've seen the alliance form between Brock and Stour, it will lead to war with the Union proper I'm sure. Seems to me these are all threads like the first trilogy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Received notification my copy arrived today.  But I was too sick with whatever it is that laying low so many of us around here to pick it up.  I could use it, that's for sure, stuck at home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finished the book. Really loved it. More later, but many of my thoughts captured in this thread. Only thing I thought that I haven’t seen here yet is that Broad is the Owl. Mainly superficial with the glasses, but he kept making me think owl when on screen. And it fits that Broad goes in on the people’s revolution and takes down Orso the Lamb. 

Edited by unJon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far I'm really enjoying how prince orso is far more intelligent than he at first appears. It makes a welcome change for abercrombie's "not quite what they seem" to be a positive thing.

Also enjoyed the french Revolution vibe during the uprising

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, red snow said:

So far I'm really enjoying how prince orso is far more intelligent than he at first appears. It makes a welcome change for abercrombie's "not quite what they seem" to be a positive thing.

Also enjoyed the french Revolution vibe during the uprising

At first, I though Orso was just another Ladisla, but he is way more intelligent and self aware than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×