Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

[Queen Allyria]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Lyanna.

I think the careful reader will only conclude it is a possibility (and to be fair, R+L=J remains a possibility to this day). 

4 hours ago, JNR said:

It's part of it, along with Promise me Ned, etc. 

But in elevating the dream to "evidence," the careful reader should see everything in it, as Syrio Forel advocates, and not just what fits some preconception.

Hmmm. Maybe we need to add more pieces to the puzzle. The Lannister’s are involved in this somehow as well. Don’t forget the dreams of Jaime and Cersei. Does that mean that we should be adding them to the mix as well? And what of Tyrion dreaming of Dragons. Just how many people are we locking together into a room now? And how many times does this occur. To me, looking back I can see at least twice. Which is now making me wonder about the legitimacy of Brandon Stark, the original too. Wow. What a tangled web among all of these people. No wonder there are so many clues. Think of how many babies there are in each generation around the same age. And apparently who you live with or are married to has absolutely no impact on the child’s parents or where they are raised. 

[Queen Allyria]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

What to the sands of Dorne have to do with anything?

The letter combination "sand" doesn't even appear in any Ned chapter. 

 

Now I’m adding the Martells to the list. Was Arianne paranoid or not? Maybe Arianne is NOT actually the true heir. 

[Queen Allyria]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Sure, but thats nowhere near the 'sands' of Dorne. 
The sands are on the other side of those Red mountains. And some.

This map will give you some idea. Its not canon I assume*, but it fits every piece of (book) canon relevant that I can think of.
*Actually, its says it is (show) canon, from the official maps created for Game of Thrones.

Even better, the map from ADwD. https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:The_south_Adwd_map.jpg 

ToJ is in the Princes Pass, Nightsong is the southernmost Stormlands castle. Kingsgrave is mid-pass, south of ToJ. ToJ is 'in' the Red Mountains of Dorne, but somewhat on the Northern side, as Ned was coming from the north and the Red Mountains were behind it. Only out beyond the southern side, south of Skyreach (where Lord Fowler is the Warden of the Princes Pass, do the sands begin.

Even south of the Red Mountains, is first a fertile green belt in the hills. Looks like where that river north of Skyreach and Yronwood is on the map. Then further south than that the desert begins.

Ned came from the north, and from ToJ went to Starfall,. Its a long way out of his way to go anywhere near the sands of Dorne and there is no indication he ever did.

Note: the maps are illustrative. The locations clues and descriptions are from book canon.

 

And now, is it possible that Quaithe has given us the formula to figure out exactly whose child is whose? Or do we still have too many kids? 

[Queen Allyria]

3 hours ago, redriver said:

R+L=J I would say.Not really bothered whether it is or isn't.Probably not even in the top ten of unresolved intrigues and mysteries, to be honest.

Quite possibly. But it seems like it might be the most complicated one. 

[Queen Allyria]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I know very well that the mountains are not the sands...I was dancing around some of my other opinions, because I wasn't really very interested in this topic. 

I don't believe Ned travelled through the Prince's Pass, and I don't believe the tower of joy is even located there. If YOU look at the maps, the best way to get to Starfall is by ship. The Prince's Pass does not lead to Starfall. It only leads into Dorne. Starfall is protected by sheer cliffs, and is located on an island in the Torentine River.

The tower of joy is a nickname for Maegor's Holdfast.

Hmmm. Would that take the Ned right past the Martells. And Mamma Martell seems to have been exiled after delivering a true heir in Quentyn? 

[Queen Allyria]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Ah well, that one we can absolutely agree on. The King's Guard certainly did know what was in the tower, but we don't know what was in the tower and I really won't be surprised at the end of the day to learn that the King's Guard knew that there was nothing in the tower 

At this point I’m starting to believe that this is probable. 

[Queen Allyria]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The problem that I have with the fever dream is that it's a vision of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death; it's not something Ned has seen in real life.  It's not a memory of something that has occurred but a vision of something that will occur.  The great red comet and the blue eyed lot.  It's a vision of ice and fire, symbolic of dragons and wights.  This is the old dream and I suspect it's a weirwood inspired dream. 

Hmmm. The only dream I remember that’s similar to that is Cersei’s with her yellow eyes of death. Seems there might be some color imagery to help as well. Just like the majority of the battles of 3 have animal imagery to them. Huh. Seems like both might match up to a house. Maybe if we put those clues together with Quaithe’s prophecy we might get somewhere. Need to put some thought into that....

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Yes. That definitely clears things up. Lmao. Do you have any references to support this conclusion? 

It isn't a conclusion, it's speculation.  Quaithes directions "go north to go south, and go east to go west" make sense to me if she goes to Vaes Dothrak first (north) before going south to Volantis.  Going along the eastern seaboard to Volantis and then west to Dorne. 

Also I have very little tolerance for snarkiness, so please keep  that to yourself.  Or we won't be friends. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Even with that ... theory, there is no 'sands of Dorne' in Ned's past. Which is the reference you used. It was you who clearly referenced a path through Dorne that Ned took which we have no reference for or indication of.

I am looking at the map, the canon one from ADwD that clearly shows the location of ToJ (so much for the Maegor's Holdfast theory!), and it does not show that the best way to Starfall is by sea. The sea is a long way away (literally as physically far as Starfall, assuming one must go through the pass to ether end before turning for the coast) and once there its a very long sail around. Its almost certain there are trails, even roads, in some places from one side of the N-S spine of the Red Mountains to the other, say between Kingsgrave and Blackmont, or Skyreach and High Hermitage. Then down the Torentine to Starfall. 

I noted the sands reference, and objected, because of the old, silly, 'no roses at ToJ because its too dry' argument. Which was repeatedly debunked in thorough detail yet never acknowledged. It looked like the same wrong head-canon operating. 

 

The "tower of joy" is clearly a nickname, because it's not titled. It's mentioned once - only in Ned's dream, and nobody else talks about it nor is it's location confirmed. It's on the map, because that is where the reader expects to see it. I don't take that as confirmation. The Appendixes list all sorts of things that aren't true, for example, under House Baratheon it lists King Robert Baratheon, the First of His Name, his wife, Queen Cersei, of House Lannister, - their children: - Prince Joffrey, heir to the Iron Throne, twelve.....etc, etc. I'm sure you grasp my point. Only time will tell if my theory is correct. We'll just have to cheerfully agree to disagree on this point.

I readily admit that I incorrectly stated "sands" and I told you why I did that. I was trying to avoid any discussions connected to R+L=J. (If you’re traveling through the Prince’s Pass, you’re going to see the sands of Dorne)

My theory about Ned's route to Starfall - I think after he lifted the siege at Storm's End he sailed to Starfall. I came to that conclusion by studying the map, and by learning about the physical challenges of reaching Starfall.

The Prince's Pass does not help anyone get to Starfall. All along the western edge is a mountain range. Over the mountain is a sheer cliff. Did they leave their horses and rappel down the other side? Once at the bottom they'd have to locate a raft, because the Torentine is a fast river with rapids, waterfalls, canyons, and crevasses. GRRM has created a ridiculously-difficult-to-reach stronghold, protected by and located at the bottom of a Royal Gorge like canyon. If he wanted us to be convinced Ned made it to Starfall through the Prince's Pass, why did he create such a difficult landscape to traverse?

2 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Could be that there are two separate events surrounding the same thing. Kinda seems like we might have that cycle on repeat throughout the books. That’s why I believe there to be echoes or ripples. I mean so far I have found a minimum of 9 occurrences of a mother being in a tower. And at least three occurrences of the fight against the squires. Seems there must be a reason for the repetition. I believe that it might be to show the reader that everything can be altered by our own choices. I mean looking at it all, doesn’t it maybe seem more practical that we might be looking at Ned+Ashara=Brienne (our most prevalent on screen bastard, who happens to live on an island Ned would need to pass to get to KL) And a separate occurrence of ALJ? Wouldn’t that make sense of all of the current clues as well? 

When Ned was called to King Robert's side laying in his bed of blood, Ned experienced deja vu:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XIII

The Red Keep was dark and still as Cayn and Tomard escorted him across the inner bailey. The moon hung low over the walls, ripening toward full. On the ramparts, a guardsman in a gold cloak walked his rounds.

The royal apartments were in Maegor's Holdfast, a massive square fortress that nestled in the heart of the Red Keep behind walls twelve feet thick and a dry moat lined with iron spikes, a castle-within-a-castle. Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge, white steel armor ghostly in the moonlight. Within, Ned passed two other knights of the Kingsguard; Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king's bedchamber. Three men in white cloaks, he thought, remembering, and a strange chill went through him. Ser Barristan's face was as pale as his armor. Ned had only to look at him to know that something was dreadfully wrong. The royal steward opened the door. "Lord Eddard Stark, the Hand of the King," he announced.

"Bring him here," Robert's voice called, strangely thick.

Fires blazed in the twin hearths at either end of the bedchamber, filling the room with a sullen red glare. The heat within was suffocating. Robert lay across the canopied bed. At the bedside hovered Grand Maester Pycelle, while Lord Renly paced restlessly before the shuttered windows. Servants moved back and forth, feeding logs to the fire and boiling wine. Cersei Lannister sat on the edge of the bed beside her husband. Her hair was tousled, as if from sleep, but there was nothing sleepy in her eyes. They followed Ned as Tomard and Cayn helped him cross the room. He seemed to move very slowly, as if he were still dreaming.

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert's feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him. A green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.

"Ned," the king whispered when he saw him. His face was pale as milk. "Come … closer."

His men brought him close. Ned steadied himself with a hand on the bedpost. He had only to look down at Robert to know how bad it was. "What …?" he began, his throat clenched.

"A boar." Lord Renly was still in his hunting greens, his cloak spattered with blood.

Three Kingsguard in white cloaks staggered along the route to the Royal Apartments within Maegor's Holdfast - Ned thought he was still dreaming, and there he finds Robert dying in his bed of blood, in a room that smelled of blood and smoke.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Hmmm. Maybe we need to add more pieces to the puzzle. The Lannister’s are involved in this somehow as well. Don’t forget the dreams of Jaime and Cersei. Does that mean that we should be adding them to the mix as well? And what of Tyrion dreaming of Dragons. Just how many people are we locking together into a room now?

Well, that's a good question -- basically "How do we organize and classify the information in these books?"  

It's wise to ask it, because GRRM is surely fond of dropping clues readers won't think are clues.  And all the dreams are worth a good look on their own merits. 

However, most of the dreams aren't likely to be about Jon's parentage... because there's just so much more going on in these books than that particular puzzle.  IMO, not even all of Jon's own dreams concern his parentage. 

The TOJ dream is a special case for several reasons I'm sure seem obvious, but most are at best only faintly connected to Jon.

So for instance, we can consider Cersei and/or her dreams.  In AGOT we find her shrieking at Ned:

Quote

You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder?

Has she got a shred of a clue about Jon's parentage? I doubt it.

Now I guess some would argue that Jon is the song of ice and fire and therefore it's all literally about him, but this seems pretty obviously BS.  AFFC doesn't even have one Jon POV chapter; Tyrion has more total than Jon does.  

In fact, I don't believe ASOIAF even has a protagonist in a conventional sense.  I think it's the tale of the Second Long Night, and the events leading up to it, and while GRRM renders that tale via POV characters, none including Jon is really central. 

Someone should ask GRRM at a convention to complete this sentence: "ASOIAF is the story of..."  The results would probably be interesting.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I readily admit that I incorrectly stated "sands" and I told you why I did that. I was trying to avoid any discussions connected to R+L=J. (If you’re traveling through the Prince’s Pass, you’re going to see the sands of Dorne)

No, you aren't. The sands of Dorne are far south of the Princes pass, on the other side of a green belt of foothills.

Quote

The Prince's Pass does not help anyone get to Starfall. All along the western edge is a mountain range. Over the mountain is a sheer cliff. Did they leave their horses and rappel down the other side?

Where is this sheer cliff mentioned? Not in any canon I can find. And certainly not a single endless cliff for hundreds of leagues. That surely would be a notable feature readily remarked upon.

Quote

Once at the bottom they'd have to locate a raft, because the Torentine is a fast river with rapids, waterfalls, canyons, and crevasses.

In parts no doubt. Its a mountain river. Roaring and tumultuous. Which does not make it impassable. But where is this description mentioned? Its not in canon I can find.

Quote

GRRM has created a ridiculously-difficult-to-reach stronghold, protected by and located at the bottom of a Royal Gorge like canyon. If he wanted us to be convinced Ned made it to Starfall through the Prince's Pass, why did he create such a difficult landscape to traverse?

He didn't, as far as I can tell.

Starfall is not situated at the bottom of a Royal Gorge like canyon. Its on an island at the mouth of the Torentine river. 

Quote

 And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. 

Quote

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

Somehow, despite this impossible terrain that you've sprung from ... somewhere, House Dayne has been able to found a second seat at High Hermitage, upriver. And Ser Gerold can get in and out. Not to mention the Blackmonts of Blackmont, even further upriver.
Not to mention that despite your fantastic utter isolation from teh rest of Dorne, they've been a rich, powerful and influential House throughout Dornish history.

I'd like to know how you've constructed this... description?

 

 

 

 

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem that I have with the fever dream is that it's a vision of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death; it's not something Ned has seen in real life.  It's not a memory of something that has occurred but a vision of something that will occur.  The great red comet and the blue eyed lot.  It's a vision of ice and fire, symbolic of dragons and wights.  This is the old dream and I suspect it's a weirwood inspired dream. 

Oh I do like this suggestion. 

I've just crawled out of my pit and about to head off to work, but I'll try and get Heresy 228 sorted out in about 10 hours - unless anybody [Corbon?] wants to take a guest spot in the meantime.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'd hate it if all this prophecy stuff  turned out to be a big nothing burger.  I'm interested in this stuff.  I have certain ideas about the Great Red Temple and their fiery god and I'd like to know what it's about.   I think you are right and she's not getting to Westeros until the 7th book.  That doesn't actually bother me.  I don't expect to see the whole thing completed myself.  One more book to satisfy my own curiosity is all I'm counting on.  

I feel like reading TWOW will only make me crave another book even more. It would absolutely suck to never get to read the end.

I feel like GRRM would leave it ambiguous whether or not a prophecy has truly been fulfilled.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Oh I do like this suggestion. 

I've just crawled out of my pit and about to head off to work, but I'll try and get Heresy 228 sorted out in about 10 hours - unless anybody [Corbon?] wants to take a guest spot in the meantime.

Well, I probably have a few things to say about it; but I'm going to hospital this morning. 

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I feel like reading TWOW will only make me crave another book even more. It would absolutely suck to never get to read the end.

I feel like GRRM would leave it ambiguous whether or not a prophecy has truly been fulfilled.

Yes, I feel the same way.  Although, I imagine that between Dandy and Bran, we will be given any number of new visions that might clarify the meaning of prophecy.  That;s what keeps me hanging on.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

9 days short of Heresy's 8th Anniversary! I propose we call it Heresy 228: Heresy Makes The 8!

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

GRRM knows that the careful reader will come to the conclusion that Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  The only question is does GRRM want the reader to come to the correct conclusion or incorrect conclusion?

I'm reminded of one of the DVD commentaries of the HBO series that GRRM was a part of.  He reminisced about watching tv shows with his mother back when he was a young.  He indicated that his mother could always predict the plot twist of the shows before they were revealed.  He stated that he wanted to write a story that could surprise careful readers like his mother.

So a careful reader will most probably come to the conclusion that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Especially readers of the fantasy genre who are familiar with the trope of the hidden prince.

The fever dream is certainly the main trigger that will lead readers to come to this conclusion.

And its' fairly brilliant because it almost invites the reader to treat a dream like they would a conscious memory.  But as we all (should) know dreams are far trickier than memories and can tend to associate events that we have linked only in our subconscious as opposed to our conscious thoughts.

Now having said that, there should still be an independent relevance to the fever dream above merely trying to misdirect the reader.  For George to pull this off, he has to have a legitimate reason for Ned linking these two events together.

 

This is a great reason on it's own to not believe RLJ. Plus his wife literally replied about the RLJ theory that GRRM "doesn't do obvious".

RLJ is the theory that GRRM wants us to arrive at. He handed it to us on a silver platter. Therefore we should be looking elsewhere for Jon's real parents. Whether or not Rhaegar is his father or Lyanna is his mother...it (almost certainly) isn't both. 

[Frey family reunion]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem that I have with the fever dream is that it's a vision of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death; it's not something Ned has seen in real life.  It's not a memory of something that has occurred but a vision of something that will occur.  The great red comet and the blue eyed lot.  It's a vision of ice and fire, symbolic of dragons and wights.  This is the old dream and I suspect it's a weirwood inspired dream. 

I do like this a lot as well.  It also separates the two halves of his dream.  The battle at the tower of joy and then Lyanna's death bed scene.   Perhaps the origins of fire and ice: fire from whatever lay at the tower of joy and ice being the child of Lyanna Stark.  Perhaps Ned has no idea why these two images are being linked together in his mind.

After he dreams his dreams of blood and broken promises in the black cell, he believes that he is going mad.

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I do like this a lot as well.  It also separates the two halves of his dream.  The battle at the tower of joy and then Lyanna's death bed scene.   Perhaps the origins of fire and ice: fire from whatever lay at the tower of joy and ice being the child of Lyanna Stark.  Perhaps Ned has no idea why these two images are being linked together in his mind.

After he dreams his dreams of blood and broken promises in the black cell, he believes that he is going mad.

I think there are three elements to the dream.  The old dream is some kind of vision that Ned later links in his fever to real memories.  Lyanna and presumably Jon; which are linked to the vision by the rose petals falling from her hand; which to my mind links with ice and the storm of petals.  The second thing is the encounter at the ToJ.  I think the most significant thing about it is that Arthur Dayne is killed and the Dawn Sword has no master.  The sword is linked with imagery of the blood streaked sky, "the Red Sword of Justice" and Dragons.  So Dany by association.  

[Frey family reunion]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think there are three elements to the dream.  The old dream is some kind of vision that Ned later links in his fever to real memories.  Lyanna and presumably Jon; which are linked to the vision by the rose petals falling from her hand; which to my mind links with ice and the storm of petals.  The second thing is the encounter at the ToJ.  I think the most significant thing about it is that Arthur Dayne is killed and the Dawn Sword has no master.  The sword is linked with imagery of the blood streaked sky, "the Red Sword of Justice" and Dragons.  So Dany by association.  

The blood streaked sky doesn’t just reference dragons it also references comets, red ones.

It all comes back to the Grateful Dead:

Quote

Dark star crashes, pouring its light into ashes
Reason tatters, the forces tear loose from the axis
Searchlight casting for faults in the clouds of delusion
Shall we go, you and I while we can
Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds?

Mirror shatters in formless reflections of matter
Glass hand dissolving in ice, petal flowers revolving
Lady in velvet recedes in the nights of good-bye
Shall we go, you and I while we can
Through the transitive nightfall of diamonds?