Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

[St Daga]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:18 PM, Melifeather said:

Ser Duncan the Tall also had a dream that seems to share some elements with Ned's. At the end he says it never happened that way...

You make a good point about Dunk's dream not telling the accurate truth of the past, as he plainly tells us that is not what happened. But since we don't have all the chapters of the Dunk and Egg stories yet, we can't be sure if some of that dream isn't about a possible future. I like the interpretation that the end of the dream, with sand collapsing on Egg and filling his mouth is perhaps foreshadowing of Summerhall and Egg's death. So, I like the idea that Ned's toj fever dream is a mix of past and possible future events. Much like Dany is warned about her vision's from the House of the Undying.

 

[St Daga]

On 11/18/2019 at 5:01 PM, LynnS said:

The problem that I have with the fever dream is that it's a vision of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death; it's not something Ned has seen in real life.  It's not a memory of something that has occurred but a vision of something that will occur.  The great red comet and the blue eyed lot.  It's a vision of ice and fire, symbolic of dragons and wights.  This is the old dream and I suspect it's a weirwood inspired dream. 

I agree that there is great potential for the toj fever dream to be more about vision/prophecy than actual past events in Eddard's life. I certainly don't think it's a literal recording of the past, as many seem to. I also agree there is ice and fire mingling in this dream,  probably with memory as well as future visions. I like the possible interpretations you have for the blood streaked sky and blue rose petals.  In a way it makes sense that Eddard might have dreamed about a sign that would coincide with his death,  which the comet seems to do. However,  I think it's just as possible that the blood streaked sky and rose petals blue like the eyes of death could be visions from the far past, fed to Ned through the dream stream that touches several characters! We know the Others have come before,  and I would guess this very comet has circled by, as well.  And I do think that Ned has been connected to the weirnet, long before his death!

I had to rely on my phone for posting since my computer no longer seems to not glitch anytime I try to post on this site anymore.  My typo quota is always magnified when posting on my phone! Eesh!

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

There are bridges across the Torrentine, which means roads and/or trails in its vicinity.

On an island at the mouth of the river, on the shores of the sea.
Not really relevant anyway. Starfall is clearly get-at-able, whether you come be sea or by land. To paraphrase GRRM, they have boats you know...

Its you who are positing that there is no access. There is no such indication.

Exactly.

But their route must go east at some stage, before it reaches the Reach side of things. Otherwie they'd not be involved with eth Stony Dornish

And there is no indication, nor reason, that they are cut off from High Hermitage or Starfall.

Clearly they do not exit only at Horn Hill. If that was the case they'd be utterly cut off from the other Stony Dornish and have no reason to be associated with them at all.

More to the point, you are right, nobody knows exactly, though anyone with a brain can figure some things. You don't know, but you are still making hard claims.

But you are the one saying 'there's no passage'. All I'm doing is showing that there is no evidence to support your position and some evidence against it. You've shown what you used as evidence but it does not support your claims.

I don't need to. You are using absence of evidence as evidence of absence.
I don't need to prove a named pass. All I need to do is show that your claims are fake, which we both have done with the quotes.

Further, there is indirect evidence against you, which you conveniently ignore, and claim "we don't know'. I have already provided the additional evidence that points towards, without explicitly proving, un-named passes, roads or trails between various locations in the Red Mountains, by the social, political and military connections between the people on either side of that particular spine.

 

The entire point is that there is no indication that it would be impossible, or even particularly difficult, for a small party to travel between the Princes Pass and the close vicinity of Starfall without passing through the Dornish desert or taking a long sea voyage.

I have provided ample evidence describing the dangerous terrain of the Torrentine River canyon, whereas you haven’t provided any evidence at all. I fail to see the validity of your argument. Let’s quit banging our heads against each other’s wall and move on. There are much more interesting subjects to discuss.

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree that there is great potential for the toj fever dream to be more about vision/prophecy than actual past events in Eddard's life. I certainly don't think it's a literal recording of the past, as many seem to. I also agree there is ice and fire mingling in this dream,  probably with memory as well as future visions. I like the possible interpretations you have for the blood streaked sky and blue rose petals.  In a way it makes sense that Eddard might have dreamed about a sign that would coincide with his death,  which the comet seems to do. However,  I think it's just as possible that the blood streaked sky and rose petals blue like the eyes of death could be visions from the far past, fed to Ned through the dream stream that touches several characters! We know the Others have come before,  and I would guess this very comet has circled by, as well.  And I do think that Ned has been connected to the weirnet, long before his death!

I had to rely on my phone for posting since my computer no longer seems to not glitch anytime I try to post on this site anymore.  My typo quota is always magnified when posting on my phone! Eesh!

Have you tried clearing your web browser caches? 

[corbon]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I have provided ample evidence describing the dangerous terrain of the Torrentine River canyon, whereas you haven’t provided any evidence at all. I fail to see the validity of your argument. Let’s quit banging our heads against each other’s wall and move on. There are much more interesting subjects to discuss.

This is the same as the old 'roses can't grow at the ToJ' argument.

You took the position that its implausible to travel from Princes Pass to Starfall through the mountains and across the Torrentine, which followed the position that the Princes Pass includes the Red Sands of Dorne. Both of these positions are significant factors in arguments you make about other theories. It has been shown to you that neither of these position is supported by the text and that, though some of your data was correct, much was also invented. Your limited real supporting data does not reach your conclusion and ignores other data. Rather than acknowledge that your starting position(s) is(are) not sustainable you refuse to acknowledge any points opposing you, falsely claim those arguing against you have provided no evidence (what the heck do you call the maps and quotes from various books then? - oh, thats right, if you don't agree with something from a book its not actually evidence!) and move on.

What do you call this behavior?

[Queen Allyria]

11 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Prophecy and symbolism sounds like a great topic to me.

You and me both! 

 

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

 

I second the motion to discuss prophecy, but I also enjoy discussing symbolism. The part of Ned's dream about the blood streaked sky and the dead flower petals that fell from Lyanna's hand - it would be interesting to discuss how individual readers interpreted them.

 

I find myself drawn to both different animals and colors as symbols. Cats and birds specifically. I’m especially interested in birds. 

[Queen Allyria]

11 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

The World Book is absolutely NOT canon. It was partially written by the owner of this forum for crying out loud. Plus George himself warned against treating it as 100% accurate. Plus it's supposedly 1 of 3 versions, the other 2 apparently to be released in "GRRMarillion".

Exactly. There are entirely too many points of view. Maybe if we combine them all together we can come up with the full picture 

[Queen Allyria]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Thank you.  I'm just too tired right now.   It's not  prophecy so much as it is all the dreams, visions or characters like Quaithe that are still open to interpretation.  We've been talking about this stuff for years and I just wonder if heretics have changed their minds about all these riddles.  For example: has anyone ever read anything, anywhere about Quaite's travel instructions for Dany?  What do you think it means, if anything?  Does anyone have any different ideas about Bran's coma dream or what might be located beyond the curtain of light, north and north and north beyond the deadlands?  Should we revisit all the characters dreams including Arya, who gets little mention.

Was Ned a green dreamer?  His fever dream has the qualities of a green dream, if you recall Jojen's dream of the sea coming to Winterfell.  Jojen took advice from Howland and was sent with Meera to protect Bran.  Ned's dream has all the symbolic quality of a green dream, occurs not long before MMD wakes the old powers and Dany hatches her eggs on the day of the Comet.  He most certainly has knowledge of the White Walkers from Gared, the ravings of a madman.   Why did the WW's release Gared at all?  Was it to bring word to Stark?   We're back and we're waiting for you?  Knowledge has been lost, things that shouldn't have been forgotten.

What about old Nan's tales? Any new interpretations? Just some of the questions that make up my tasty burger.  LOL

You and me both. Personally I think that Quaithe is Dany’s friend. She is telling her how to get back home. I definitely think we need to be looking more at Arya. I think there is definitely something to her dreams. I just haven’t figured out what yet.
I’m almost wondering exactly how much we should trust Meera right now. So much of the picture still seems unclear. But maybe I haven’t focused on much more than those three. Seems like Quaithe might have someone else working against her ensuring the safety of Dany

[Queen Allyria]

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

There are bridges across the Torrentine, which means roads and/or trails in its vicinity.

Exactly. There are many. Too many to count. 

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

The entire point is that there is no indication that it would be impossible, or even particularly difficult, for a small party to travel between the Princes Pass and the close vicinity of Starfall without passing through the Dornish desert or taking a long sea voyage.

[Queen Allyria]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

have provided ample evidence describing the dangerous terrain of the Torrentine River canyon, whereas you haven’t provided any evidence at all. I fail to see the validity of your argument. Let’s quit banging our heads against each other’s wall and move on. There are much more interesting subjects to discuss.

You seem awfully insistent on dismissing any claims that don’t support your interpretation. Isn’t the whole point of this thread to combine all of our viewpoints to hopefully form the correct picture. Why are you so vested in your opinion being the correct one? 

[Queen Allyria]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

What do you call this behavior?

Bias

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

This is the same as the old 'roses can't grow at the ToJ' argument.

You took the position that its implausible to travel from Princes Pass to Starfall through the mountains and across the Torrentine, which followed the position that the Princes Pass includes the Red Sands of Dorne. Both of these positions are significant factors in arguments you make about other theories. It has been shown to you that neither of these position is supported by the text and that, though some of your data was correct, much was also invented. Your limited real supporting data does not reach your conclusion and ignores other data. Rather than acknowledge that your starting position(s) is(are) not sustainable you refuse to acknowledge any points opposing you, falsely claim those arguing against you have provided no evidence (what the heck do you call the maps and quotes from various books then? - oh, thats right, if you don't agree with something from a book its not actually evidence!) and move on.

What do you call this behavior?

My position is that the terrain from the Prince's Pass over the Red Mountains would be very arduous and difficult, if not downright impossible, and if the Torrentine canyon is indeed as described in the World Book, then GRRM has created a stronghold very difficult to get to, and it should make the reader question "how" Ned got there. As it is, some readers, like yourself, are assuming Ned rode a horse all the way there, because he had a fever dream about fighting the three Kingsguard at a tower of joy in the Prince's Pass. This is an assumption and you are connecting dots that fit a specific narrative.

Furthermore, if you travel through the Prince's Pass you will enter the sands of Dorne. Deserts are often located on the eastern side of mountain ranges as the mountains themselves can block moisture from being carried over by the clouds. This is the most confusing part of your bone with me, because I really have no idea what you are contesting. Are you saying that the Red Mountains of Dorne don't contain any sand? Sandstone is red. I wonder what the Red Mountains are made of? Is it red granite? I suppose the Prince's Pass is stony, but I suspect once you get through the pass that you'd be stepping into sand... 

I'm refusing to acknowledge any of your points, because you have none. You accuse me of using an absence of evidence as evidence when it's you that has no evidence! Where did you learn this twisting logic? From watching the Trump impeachment inquiry? You haven't provided any evidence that there are passes, roads, or trails that lead from the Prince's Pass down to Starfall. You claim the fact that there is a bridge used to reach Starfall as your needed proof that this is confirmation of a trail over the mountain. The road that leads to the bridge could just as easily originate from the coast. My guess is just as good as your guess if we're going to use plausible guesses as evidence.

What do I call your behavior? Argumentative.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

You seem awfully insistent on dismissing any claims that don’t support your interpretation. Isn’t the whole point of this thread to combine all of our viewpoints to hopefully form the correct picture. Why are you so vested in your opinion being the correct one? 

My only insistence is in trying to keep the peace. What a bore this must be for the others to read this superfluous argument. If you want to join Corbon in his ridiculous assertions - go ahead. Help him find relevant passages for proof, because he hasn't produced anything yet.

[Queen Allyria]

36 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

My only insistence is in trying to keep the peace. What a bore this must be for the others to read this superfluous argument. If you want to join Corbon in his ridiculous assertions - go ahead. Help him find relevant passages for proof, because he hasn't produced anything yet.

Maybe they didn’t head out to go to Starfall. Maybe they were trying to get back home to the rest of their family. It could be that Ashara was not at home. GRRM did say that she wasn’t nailed to the ground. 

[Queen Allyria]

41 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

What do I call your behavior? Argumentative.

Funny that I would say the same as yours. It’s not up to Corbin to disprove your theory. It’s on you to prove it. Like the argument you and I had about black ice. I knew your interpretation was wrong, yet instead of you showing that you were correct, you made me prove you wrong. That is not anyone else’s responsibility to do. 
 

sometimes there is a reason that ppl can’t peacefully coexist. It doesn’t always make it the fault of one side or the other. 

[Melifeather]

There is actually no text that even places the tower of joy in the Prince's Pass. Not even the World Book mentions nor identifies where the tower of joy lies. The only reason some readers believe it's located in the Prince's Pass is due to a map drawn by Jonathan Roberts using GRRM's sketches. I understand GRRM signed off on the project including the locations, but I still have my doubts. Does anyone know of an SSM where GRRM confirmed the location of the tower of joy?

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Maybe they didn’t head out to go to Starfall. Maybe they were trying to get back home to the rest of their family. It could be that Ashara was not at home. GRRM did say that she wasn’t nailed to the ground. 

What's the little rhyme? If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas. 

Just now, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Funny that I would say the same as yours. It’s not up to Corbin to disprove your theory. It’s on you to prove it. Like the argument you and I had about black ice. I knew your interpretation was wrong, yet instead of you showing that you were correct, you made me prove you wrong. That is not anyone else’s responsibility to do. 
 

sometimes there is a reason that ppl can’t peacefully coexist. It doesn’t always make it the fault of one side or the other. 

He chose to attack my... it wasn't even a full-fledged theory so much as an expressed doubt that Ned took an overland route to Starfall. I provided supporting evidence - the rugged terrain, the mountains and cliffs, and the dangerous conditions of the river described as a "beast". He countered my evidence with... guesses, suppositions, and maybes, which do not refute my evidence. He doesn't have to believe me, but if you're going to start an argument with someone over something you don't agree with, you should at least provide some evidence as to why you don't. 

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Like the argument you and I had about black ice. I knew your interpretation was wrong, yet instead of you showing that you were correct, you made me prove you wrong.

You will have to remind me of this debate. Do you have a link?

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Does anyone know of an SSM where GRRM confirmed the location of the tower of joy?

Nearest I know of would be this one, which is a classic case of evasion.

Quote

I asked him about the Tower of Joy. What was its location - we know it the mountains of Dorne were in the background, but could he be more specific? I asked if it was a part of Summerhall.

GRRM replied that the Tower of Joy was not part of Summerhall, but did not want to say more about it.

So the highest authority on its location that I know of is the canonical ADWD map.

Also, notice this bit, which though from 2000 seems remarkably topical in tone and content, only requiring an adjustment of quantity to apply to 2019:

Quote

Martin said that he hoped to do the story in six books. He said "I'm gonna do my damnedest to finish the series in six books". He then said, "It_is_possible that it will go beyond six books". He said "the story makes its own demands".

AFFC and ADWD don't seem to qualify as "his damnedest" to finish in six books. 

Efficiency was not in any apparent sense a goal of his; they are both thickly streaked with narrative fat, and could probably be edited down to a single coherent book without much work.   If that were done, the book could be called AFFC and then Dany could actually invade Westeros in a book called A Dance with Dragons.

And really, if GRRM hadn't parked Dany in Meereen, he wouldn't now be struggling to finish ASOIAF and he wouldn't be facing an increasingly dubious fandom that wonders whether he can. Nothing about his output in this century, including the sample chapters from TWOW, suggests there's much hope.  Only by assuming he really wants to finish at all and will change his ways can we imagine it.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

3 hours ago, corbon said:

This is the same as the old 'roses can't grow at the ToJ' argument.

You took the position that its implausible to travel from Princes Pass to Starfall through the mountains and across the Torrentine, which followed the position that the Princes Pass includes the Red Sands of Dorne. Both of these positions are significant factors in arguments you make about other theories. It has been shown to you that neither of these position is supported by the text and that, though some of your data was correct, much was also invented. Your limited real supporting data does not reach your conclusion and ignores other data. Rather than acknowledge that your starting position(s) is(are) not sustainable you refuse to acknowledge any points opposing you, falsely claim those arguing against you have provided no evidence (what the heck do you call the maps and quotes from various books then? - oh, thats right, if you don't agree with something from a book its not actually evidence!) and move on.

What do you call this behavior?

The World Book obviously isn't canon (it could confirm every theory I've ever had and I'd still say the same).

However you are correct that Melifeather is incorrect in saying the mountains are impossible to traverse. No matter how difficult, it would still be possible to get over them. It can be said that it is unlikely, but to say it is impossible is nonsensical.