Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Melifeather said: My position is that the terrain from the Prince's Pass over the Red Mountains would be very arduous and difficult, if not downright impossible, and if the Torrentine canyon is indeed as described in the World Book, then GRRM has created a stronghold very difficult to get to, and it should make the reader question "how" Ned got there. As it is, some readers, like yourself, are assuming Ned rode a horse all the way there, because he had a fever dream about fighting the three Kingsguard at a tower of joy in the Prince's Pass. This is an assumption and you are connecting dots that fit a specific narrative. Furthermore, if you travel through the Prince's Pass you will enter the sands of Dorne. Deserts are often located on the eastern side of mountain ranges as the mountains themselves can block moisture from being carried over by the clouds. This is the most confusing part of your bone with me, because I really have no idea what you are contesting. Are you saying that the Red Mountains of Dorne don't contain any sand? Sandstone is red. I wonder what the Red Mountains are made of? Is it red granite? I suppose the Prince's Pass is stony, but I suspect once you get through the pass that you'd be stepping into sand... I'm refusing to acknowledge any of your points, because you have none. You accuse me of using an absence of evidence as evidence when it's you that has no evidence! Where did you learn this twisting logic? From watching the Trump impeachment inquiry? You haven't provided any evidence that there are passes, roads, or trails that lead from the Prince's Pass down to Starfall. You claim the fact that there is a bridge used to reach Starfall as your needed proof that this is confirmation of a trail over the mountain. The road that leads to the bridge could just as easily originate from the coast. My guess is just as good as your guess if we're going to use plausible guesses as evidence. What do I call your behavior? Argumentative. Can we please keep real life politics out of Heresy? I don't see that ever having a happy ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 A possibly interesting development: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/11/18/bring-me-my-pipe/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 5 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said: Personally I think that Quaithe is Dany’s friend. I'm of the same mind. I think she is helping her although some on the forums find her a suspicious figure. She wears a mask disguising her identity both from Dany and the reader. Is she really from Asshai or is she like Mirri Maaz Duur or Melisandre who have studied magic in Asshai? She speaks the common tongue without an accent and that may place her origins in Westeros. She seems to know something about glass candles and how to use them. This seems to be how she communicates with Dany "by other means". So this gives her knowledge of the here and now; specifically when she warns Dany about the pale mare, Kraken and Dark Flame, Mummer's Dragon and the Sun's son etc. etc. And she seems to know something about Dany herself and what she must do; where she must travel. North to Vaes Dothrak to pass beneath the shadow of the mother of mountains and touch the light. It's all very cryptic. My wildest guess is that Quaithe is Alleras/Sarella, who may know something about the prophecy and glass candles from Marwyn and may have travelled to meet her on his instructions. Acolytes are required to fashion a mask, a rod and a ring out of various materials as they progress in their studies. One of which is wood. Marwyn is someone I don't trust and he is curiously, not mentioned by Quaithe as someone who will come to her. Sarella may have an agenda of her own, as indicated by the Prince of Dorne, when he decides to leave her in place, at the Citadel. Supposing that she is there on his instructions to learn what she can about the prophecy. Dorne would likely have an interest in protecting Dany. I'm also curious about Quaithe's mask. It's a red lacquered mask and this reminds me of the insignia on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree; a red face on a wooden shield. When Quaithe first gives Dany her strange travel instructions; it's early on in the story and there is no context to understand what it means. By the end of Dance, there is a bit more context. She is have to go back to Vaes Dothrak before she can go forward, She needs an army. But she must also pass beneath the shadow and touch the light. This may have something to do with Dothraki prophecy of uniting the Khalasars. But also her vision in the house of undying of a line of crones bowing before her. I suspect that this is where she will be given knowledge of the past, of Asshai. Touching the light in other words. So some mystery involving visions. Something that will give her purpose. I suspect this involves a confrontation with Volantis where the slaves are waiting for her to free them. So go north before going south. But how does she go south? She has to go back east to Mereen and resolve the business there first. Her dragons are on the loose and who know what Victarion and Benerro have been up to. I suspect Benerro will be in the driver's seat and may have taken one of the dragons back to the Great Red Temple. If so, Dany will certainly confront the Great Red Temple as well. Before she can go to Westeros, she will need to collect enough ships to transport her Khal across the narrow sea. To do this, she will have to travel along the eastern seaboard of Essos and take what she needs. So travel east before going west. From Volantis to her allies in Dorne, We should also consider Aemon's fevered words: The sphynx is the riddle, not the riddler." If Sarella is the Sphynx and Quaithe is the riddler are they same person? Does Sarella have more than one disguise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 4 hours ago, LynnS said: And she seems to know something about Your words caused me to wonder...what if Quaithe is also Daenerys? Going off the theory that every Brandon Stark is the same Brandon reborn, what if Quaithe is one choice Dany made and she’s hoping to change the future by encouraging her reborn self to take a different path? Far fetched I know, but it would explain some things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Melifeather said: Your words caused me to wonder...what if Quaithe is also Daenerys? Going off the theory that every Brandon Stark is the same Brandon reborn, what if Quaithe is one choice Dany made and she’s hoping to change the future by encouraging her reborn self to take a different path? Far fetched I know, but it would explain some things. Interesting. But the mechanism for all the Brandons to be the same is our current Bran being able to manipulate at least the past through the weirwood network. What's Dany's? Maybe Quaithe is literally a figment of Mad Dany's imagination? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, Melifeather said: Your words caused me to wonder...what if Quaithe is also Daenerys? Going off the theory that every Brandon Stark is the same Brandon reborn, what if Quaithe is one choice Dany made and she’s hoping to change the future by encouraging her reborn self to take a different path? Far fetched I know, but it would explain some things. I think I'll stick with Quaithe/Sarella on this one. It's a question of glass candles and who has access and the opportunity to use them., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 10 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said: She is telling her how to get back home. I'm not sure that this is what Quaithe is telling her. Dany is obsessed with going home though. She dreams about the house with the red door and lemon tree. This is an early childhood memory of the only home she has known. I discussed this a while ago and came to the conclusion that the house with the red door is located in Lys and not Braavos as she had been told. It's also curious that she dreams of the red door in one of her dragons dreams, except in this instance, home is the Dothraki Sea, perhaps the natural habitat of dragons. So the red door is a strong early memory, perhaps even associated with the red doors at Dragonstone where she was born. Her strongest memory of home is from her early childhood, a place of security. So she longs for it. But I don't think she has any idea where her home should be. She had no memory or strong connection to Westeros. She only knows what Viserys has told her. He is the one who associates Westeros with home, not Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said: Maybe Quaithe is literally a figment of Mad Dany's imagination? Ok. I'm going to go with no on this one. If she was a figment of Dany's mad mind, she would be the only one who could see and hear Quaithe. Dany's bloodriders do in fact see her as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 10 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said: I definitely think we need to be looking more at Arya. I think there is definitely something to her dreams. Yes, I haven't done a really good study of them. But I seem to recall that she a dream of Winterfell that is similar to Jon's dream of prowling the Halls of Winterfell looking for someone, anyone and place is empty. It's curious because when my dad passed away; I had a similar dream of looking for him in an empty house. When I mentioned this to my sister; she had virtually the same dream. I wonder if this is something out of GRRM's own experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 10 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said: I’m almost wondering exactly how much we should trust Meera right now. So much of the picture still seems unclear. Why do you have this feeling about Meera? What is it that makes you mistrust her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I'll just say one more thing before this thread is closed down. When Dany goes back to Vaes Dothrak she will effectively become one of the crones. Passing beneaath the shadow and touching the light sounds like an initiation of some kind. The crone is also one of the Seven, an aspect that Catelyn frequently prays to: Quote A Clash of Kings - Catelyn IV Lost and weary, Catelyn Stark gave herself over to her gods. She knelt before the Smith, who fixed things that were broken, and asked that he give her sweet Bran his protection. She went to the Maid and beseeched her to lend her courage to Arya and Sansa, to guard them in their innocence. To the Father, she prayed for justice, the strength to seek it and the wisdom to know it, and she asked the Warrior to keep Robb strong and shield him in his battles. Lastly she turned to the Crone, whose statues often showed her with a lamp in one hand. "Guide me, wise lady," she prayed. "Show me the path I must walk, and do not let me stumble in the dark places that lie ahead." It's the crone who lights the way and I suspect that this is where Dany will find her path, something that she also asks in the House of Undying. If Martin is using any of our constellations as seems possible. The Crone with the Lamp is part of the Orion Nebula and the sword that Jon sees in the southern sky is Orion's sword: https://earthsky.org/tonight/orion-rises-in-the-east-at-mid-evening It appears in the south at a different time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion's_Sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 47 minutes ago, LynnS said: Ok. I'm going to go with no on this one. If she was a figment of Dany's mad mind, she would be the only one who could see and hear Quaithe. Dany's bloodriders do in fact see her as well. Damn. I like your theory better anyway. I think you're onto something with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 hour ago, LynnS said: I think I'll stick with Quaithe/Sarella on this one. It's a question of glass candles and who has access and the opportunity to use them., I was just spitballing.... You should move your posts over to the new thread. Black Crow has Heresy 228 posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 Hopefully this thread is open until the 27th. So 228 can start on Heresy's 8th Anniversary, the 28th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, Melifeather said: I was just spitballing.... You should move your posts over to the new thread. Black Crow has Heresy 228 posted. She was referring to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said: She was referring to mine. Look at post 466... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said: Hopefully this thread is open until the 27th. So 228 can start on Heresy's 8th Anniversary, the 28th. We usually don't go into 24 pages! I don't think we're going to make it until tomorrow unless we just don't go over there yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 34 minutes ago, Melifeather said: I was just spitballing.... You should move your posts over to the new thread. Black Crow has Heresy 228 posted. Yah! Spitball away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Aegon The Compromiser Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 29 minutes ago, Melifeather said: We usually don't go into 24 pages! I don't think we're going to make it until tomorrow unless we just don't go over there yet... Actually 228 is live right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 I have removed my first post from 228 and copied it here so that we can save 228 for tomorrow. Sorry about that. LynnS raised the topic of Daenerys' memory of a red door, and in conjunction the topic of the lemon tree and whether they even grow in Braavos usually comes along. The included link to PrettyPig's thread - in a nutshell - suggested that the color red may be an indication that Daenerys had lived in a brothel since they are known to have red colored lights. Added to that, the location was more likely Lys since lemons are more suited to the climate there rather than the cloudy, rainy, and sometimes cold, Braavos. And lest we forget, the black color of the blue rose petals that fell from Lyanna's palm are speculated to have been the result of a visual effect from red and green windows. We may as well also include the green and yellow glass of Winterfell's greenhouse to add to the discussion of the symbolic meanings behind all these colors, but first I'd like to offer another alternative for the red door - one that is more symbolic than appearance, but still in line with the brothel theme, which I acknowledge exists. The Andals brought the tradition of using marriage as a means to seal an alliance with other Houses, possibly with former enemies or to end a battle, or even to court favor, whereas the North used to follow a slightly different tact by marrying into their existing bannermen in order to strengthen ties to their vassals. This was Lady Barbrey's main complaint regarding Rickard Stark. Brandon was fostered nearby with the Dustins at Barrowton. He and Barbrey fell in lust and he took her maidenhead. It is not clear if Willam Dustin (or his father) knew that his wife-to-be was not a maiden, which could have been an issue if we consider what we know about Lysa Tully and Lollys Stokeworth. Both had lost their maidenheads out of wedlock. Both were considered soiled goods. Lysa lucked out with Jon Arryn, because he was desperate for Hoster's troops, but Lollys had to marry beneath her position. Had Rickard been more concerned with strengthening his ties with his vassals than having "southron ambitions", promising Brandon to a southron House Tully, Barbrey could have married the man she loved as well as avoid a second heartbreak by becoming a widow due to the Rebellion. She may even feel that, had she married Brandon, and Rickard had not gotten involved in "southron ambitions", the North may not have been pulled into the Rebellion in the first place. It would seem that a daughter with an intact maidenhead secured in marriage is a prerequisite for a solid and binding alliance. No marriage, no deal. Ask Robb Stark how that went for him? This was also a big part of Renly's problem when dealing with his own brother Stannis and his peach offering - which I might point out has the appearance of a woman's vulva complete with a "camel toe". It simply was not going to serve. You cannot offer a peach in marriage, and thus no alliance was secured. You need the real deal. This importance placed on maidenheads has relegated the noble daughters of Westeros as being akin to prostitutes and fathers as pimps. It may have even exacerbated female inheritance traditions. This is my roundabout way of getting to Daenerys' memory of the red door of her childhood. After her mother died, Ser Willem Darry (just an aside - I was just struck by how similar his name is to Willam Dustin) became caregiver to two small children: Viserys and Daenerys. As their "father" he assumed the role of "pimp" and negotiated a marriage alliance with Prince Oberyn Martell, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness. Arianne's maidenhead was promised to Viserys and Daenerys' to Quentyn. Is it possible that four or five year old Daenerys recalls the meeting and made some unconscious connection between the transaction and the selling of whores in Braavos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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