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Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle


Black Crow

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1 minute ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I agree with the idea that Viserys is the one that sees Westeros as home. But we are making an assumption that Dany’s strongest memory of home is what SHE associates with home. Sometimes home is not a place. It can be more a state of being. Think of when we tell a visitor to make themselves at home. What do we mean by that? Are we literally asking them to move in with us? Or are we encouraging them to do what is most comfortable for them? Isn’t it possible that Quaithe is instructing Dany on how to get to the place where she is most comfortable within herself and being herself? 

I think Quaithe is actually telling her the path she has to follow.  If you recall, Quaithe seems to know something about Dany's experience in the House of Undying.  Dany specifically asks them to show her the path, to give her wisdom.  This I think has more to do with what will occur when Dany is initiated by crones at Vaes Dothrak.

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I haven't done a really good study of them.  But I seem to recall that she a dream of Winterfell that is similar to Jon's dream of prowling the Halls of Winterfell looking for someone, anyone and place is empty.  It's curious because when my dad passed away; I had a similar dream of looking for him in an empty house.  When I mentioned this to my sister; she had virtually the same dream.  I wonder if this is something out of GRRM's own experience.   

Interesting. I think it’s quite possible. I know that my own daughter and myself on occasion  have had some pretty crazy, but relevant dreams. Most are explained by things that may be trapped in our subconscious being processed and stored away with automatic connections being made. But at times dreams can be eerily accurate without further impetus. 

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22 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well yes and the Sealord of Bravos but it's Doran Martell's contract.  Dany is not mentioned though.

Quentyn's thoughts seem to suggest that Dany was part of the "agreement". He says, "She will not refuse me. She will honor the agreement. ..." Why should Dany honor the agreement if she were not part of the deal? Does Dany's name have to be explicitly mentioned in the text as being on the parchment in order to reasonably conclude that she was part of it?  If I tell you, you cannot have hundreds of millions of dollars until you publicly state that you will investigate my political opponent, but follow that up with, P.S., this doesn't mean I'm extorting you - does that mean that there was no pro quid pro? :laugh:

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Why do you have this feeling about Meera?  What is it that makes you mistrust her?

Jojen is the green dreamer and the one who chose to help Bran, whereas the only reason that Meera is present is to protect Jojen. What happens when it becomes an either/or choice? Will she still support Bran at that point or will she revert to her original goal of protecting Jojen? What if Meera just perceives danger? How would she react then? She is biased. 

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5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Quentyn's thoughts seem to suggest that Dany was part of the "agreement". He says, "She will not refuse me. She will honor the agreement. ..." Why should Dany honor the agreement if she were not part of the deal?

If the agreement is worded in such a manner that would include Targ descendents without specifically naming them.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

If the agreement is worded in such a manner that would include Targ descendents without specifically naming them.

But Dany was four or five years old when Ser Darry signed the agreement. She would have been named.

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll just say one more thing before this thread is closed down.  When Dany goes back to Vaes Dothrak she will effectively become one of the crones.  Passing beneaath the shadow and touching the light sounds like an initiation of some kind.  The crone is also one of the Seven, an aspect that Catelyn frequently prays to:
 

It's the crone who lights the way and I suspect that this is where Dany will find her path, something that she also asks in the House of Undying.  

If Martin is using any of our constellations as seems possible.  The Crone with the Lamp is part of the Orion Nebula and the sword that Jon sees in the southern sky is Orion's sword: 

https://earthsky.org/tonight/orion-rises-in-the-east-at-mid-evening

It appears in the south at a different time. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion's_Sword

I really like your analysis of the Crone as it pertains to Dany. It somewhat lines up with the idea that she is trying to lead her home. The problem remains that nobody knows for sure what it is that Dany considers home. Nor possibly does Dany herself. If Dany feels most at home with the Dothraki I would assume that the Vaes Dothrak would be the location. But maybe Quaithe isn’t trying to provide an actual physical location but rather a state of emotional well being? 

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3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I have removed my first post from 228 and copied it here so that we can save 228 for tomorrow. Sorry about that.

LynnS raised the topic of Daenerys' memory of a red door, and in conjunction the topic of the lemon tree and whether they even grow in Braavos usually comes along. The included link to PrettyPig's thread - in a nutshell - suggested that the color red may be an indication that Daenerys had lived in a brothel since they are known to have red colored lights. Added to that, the location was more likely Lys since lemons are more suited to the climate there rather than the cloudy, rainy, and sometimes cold, Braavos. And lest we forget, the black color of the blue rose petals that fell from Lyanna's palm are speculated to have been the result of a visual effect from red and green windows. We may as well also include the green and yellow glass of Winterfell's greenhouse to add to the discussion of the symbolic meanings behind all these colors, but first I'd like to offer another alternative for the red door - one that is more symbolic than appearance, but still in line with the brothel theme, which I acknowledge exists.

The Andals brought the tradition of using marriage as a means to seal an alliance with other Houses, possibly with former enemies or to end a battle, or even to court favor, whereas the North used to follow a slightly different tact by marrying into their existing bannermen in order to strengthen ties to their vassals. This was Lady Barbrey's main complaint regarding Rickard Stark. Brandon was fostered nearby with the Dustins at Barrowton. He and Barbrey fell in lust and he took her maidenhead. It is not clear if Willam Dustin (or his father) knew that his wife-to-be was not a maiden, which could have been an issue if we consider what we know about Lysa Tully and Lollys Stokeworth. Both had lost their maidenheads out of wedlock. Both were considered soiled goods. Lysa lucked out with Jon Arryn, because he was desperate for Hoster's troops, but Lollys had to marry beneath her position.

Had Rickard been more concerned with strengthening his ties with his vassals than having "southron ambitions", promising Brandon to a southron House Tully, Barbrey could have married the man she loved as well as avoid a second heartbreak by becoming a widow due to the Rebellion. She may even feel that, had she married Brandon, and Rickard had not gotten involved in "southron ambitions", the North may not have been pulled into the Rebellion in the first place.

It would seem that a daughter with an intact maidenhead secured in marriage is a prerequisite for a solid and binding alliance. No marriage, no deal. Ask Robb Stark how that went for him? This was also a big part of Renly's problem when dealing with his own brother Stannis and his peach offering - which I might point out has the appearance of a woman's vulva complete with a "camel toe". It simply was not going to serve. You cannot offer a peach in marriage, and thus no alliance was secured. You need the real deal.

This importance placed on maidenheads has relegated the noble daughters of Westeros as being akin to prostitutes and fathers as pimps. It may have even exacerbated female inheritance traditions. This is my roundabout way of getting to Daenerys' memory of the red door of her childhood. After her mother died, Ser Willem Darry (just an aside - I was just struck by how similar his name is to Willam Dustin) became caregiver to two small children: Viserys and Daenerys. As their "father" he assumed the role of "pimp" and negotiated a marriage alliance with Prince Oberyn Martell, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness. Arianne's maidenhead was promised to Viserys and Daenerys' to Quentyn. Is it possible that four or five year old Daenerys recalls the meeting and made some unconscious connection between the transaction and the selling of whores in Braavos?

Hmmm. That seems like a lot of work around symbolism and real world constructs. Certainly possible, but that’s a LOT of detail for one small part of a HUGE story. 
 

Isnt it more likely that as a small child that has traveled extensively Dany has assimilated several physical locations into her own construct of what home looks like? 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I don't recall being involved in a "no roses" discussion. It must have been a long time ago, because I have no recollection. 

I think it was in one of the heresy X+Y=J threads.

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You are not adding anything new to this topic - revising after I went back and reviewed some of it - at least this time around you have taken the time to present evidence

This time around?

Post 390 covered the green belt and green mountain meadows references, with underlined quotes and commentary. It also referenced the ADwD map.

Post 398 explained the connection between east and west side of the mountains without directly referencing textual evidence.

Post 438 expanded the connection between east and west Stony Dornish and provided 3 separate textual references to House Blackmont (from the west side of the mountains) being connected to the eastern Stony Dornish in the past and present, including the bannermen of Yronwood reference.
It also took, gratefully, your challenged and provided reference to the Torrentine, and underlined, from the reference your provided, that there are bridges and therefore roads and/or trails in that area.

Sometimes posts between these ones referenced the evidence already provided.

Post 440 you claimed I had provided no evidence at all.
Post 452 you reasserted and reaffirmed your original points, ignored all of my evidence and arguments and claimed I had provided no evidence and made no points.
 

36 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'll probably regret replying back, but here goes...

1) With regards to the Prince's Pass, your evidence is thus:

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The more restless of the First Men pushed onward and made homes for themselves in the foothills south of the Red Mountains, where storms moving north were wont to drop their moisture, creating a fertile green belt.

No. Please read post 482 with a little more care.
The First Men came across the Step Stones area into Dorne and most settled around the Greenblood. A few, the more restless, pushed onward and made homes in the green belt of foothills where storms moving north drop their moisture when they hit the Red Mountains.

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Those who climbed farther took refuge amongst the peaks, in hidden valleys and high mountain meadows where the grass was green and sweet.

Even fewer climbed further, and moved into the Mountains, not stopping at the foothills. Where there are high mountain meadows of green, sweet grass.

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I would argue that the wording mentions the foothills south of the Red Mountains.

Yes. except you used the wrong quote. The Princes Pass is not south of the mountains in that green belt, its in (through) the mountains where there are high meadows of green sweet grass.

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The Red Mountains do run east and west, but they also run north and south.

Correct

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The Prince's Pass is a north and south passage along a north and south section of the range

False. Just read your own writing. You don't get a north south passage along a north south mountain spine. Its still in the east-west spine, at the western end of that spine.
Surprise surprise, thats what the maps show! And what the text describes.

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Daeron divided his host into three forces: one led by Lord Tyrell, who came down the Prince's Pass at the western end of the Red Mountains of Dorne; 

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therefore the Prince's Pass is on an eastern side.

There is a north-south spine, along which the Torrentine runs, and an east-west (generally, it seem to go southwest to northeast in most maps) spine.

There are two passes through the west-east spine. The Boneway lies on the coast, the eastern end of the west-east spine, and the Princes Pass lies inland, on the western end of the east-west spine. Both go effectively north/south, across the spine, from Dorne to the Stormlands.

Yes, the Princess pass is on the eastern side of the north-south spine. Close to it in fact. There is no dispute with that.

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I don't believe the passage applies to all of the foothills, but rather a very particular section that runs along the east/west portion. It's the section of the range where the Boneway comes through from Summerhall.

Oh, I see. You take whats in the text and shape it to your desires. This green belt doesn't cover the southern side of the east-west spine, only a portion of the southern side, where its acceptable for you. /s

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2) I agree the passage I provided stated that the only way to cross the Torrentine is to go over a bridge. 

I see the the sophistry used to avoid acknowledging the point.
And its still wrong. Its not safe to cross except at bridges, but the passage does not say there are no other ways.

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3) I remain skeptical that the north/south section of the range is passable by crossing over it from east to west.

Riiight. The Blackmonts are bannermen to the Yronwoods and participate in their culture, wars and clashes by way of Horn Hill in the Reach, to the Stormlands, and back through the Princes Pass or Boneway. Or maybe they go south, past High Hermitage to Starfall, then by sea around the whole of Dorne? Because there is no named pass road or trail between them and the other Stoney Dornish....

 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I don't recall being involved in a "no roses" discussion. It must have been a long time ago, because I have no recollection. 

You are not adding anything new to this topic - revising after I went back and reviewed some of it - at least this time around you have taken the time to present evidence, but I still believe your only purpose is to berate and badger me, and for that I'm just not interested in continuing our discussion. 

IIRC you were very involved in the No Roses debate In (maybe) the ALJ Heresy Parentage Project Wrap up thread here on Westeros. If you need a link I believe Wolfmaid provides one in her thread on heresy. 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Oh, Lady Dyanna! I didn't realize I was having a conversation with you! You tricked me with the Blue Eyed Wolf Girl name, you naughty wench!

Tomorrow when the new Heresy is officially open on its anniversary day, please bring whatever you recall about the black ice discussion. I've changed my mind on a number of theories since I was a member of Last Hearth, so it would be interesting to learn what the bone of contention was about.

Sorry. No intent to trick anyone. Just didn’t want to let past disagreements get in the way of discussion. 
 

As I also commented I am blocked from TLH. Maybe someone who is not might be nice enough to either remember or look it up. I believe it is in the Prologue Forensic file in relation to the others or their swords. But the disagreement was on the nature of what black ice Actually is, not any type of theory. Just a basic definition. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Hey Lady Dyanna, you're back.  Hooray!  Given that I don't know much about Quaithe's age, I'm not ready to dismiss Sarella.  She's nailed to the Citadel now but was she before AFFC.  Marwyn must certainly have known about the dragons early on.  Either by glass candle or by reports from sailors and taverns he frequents. I don't think it's out of the question that he sent the Dornish Sphinx to make a connection.  It's also entirely possible that Quaithe is just Quaithe.  LOL  But I think a Dornish connection would make sense. 

Thanks. Sorry to get a bit huffy with you the other day. I let my personal frustrations interfere with my reply. My head gets done in a bit too easily when we try to make a giant leap from a small piece of information. And yes, I realize that I do this all of the time too. 
 

I agree with a Dornish connection making sense, and definitely a Westerosi one based on accent. Unfortunately I think it’s just our own gut reactions to the information that take us further. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Is it possible that Quaithe is another one of Marwyn's students?  We've got Mirri Maaz Duur and Qyburn so far.  I'm guessing that the candles have only been burning since the red comet appeared.

This actually makes a LOT of sense. Especially since most things happen in threes when it comes to protection in this series. 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think Quaithe is actually telling her the path she has to follow.  If you recall, Quaithe seems to know something about Dany's experience in the House of Undying.  Dany specifically asks them to show her the path, to give her wisdom.  This I think has more to do with what will occur when Dany is initiated by crones at Vaes Dothrak.

Honestly I believe that it might be possible for it to be either interpretation. It all depends on how GRRM himself would actually envision “home.”

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22 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Thanks. Sorry to get a bit huffy with you the other day. I let my personal frustrations interfere with my reply. My head gets done in a bit too easily when we try to make a giant leap from a small piece of information. And yes, I realize that I do this all of the time too. 
 

I agree with a Dornish connection making sense, and definitely a Westerosi one based on accent. Unfortunately I think it’s just our own gut reactions to the information that take us further. 

Well, I didn't realize it was you or I wouldn't have been so defensive.  Friends have leeway, you know.  I think gut reactions and intuition are sold a little short on the forums.  LOL.  

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16 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Honestly I believe that it might be possible for it to be either interpretation. It all depends on how GRRM himself would actually envision “home.”

Or hell, it could be both and more knowing how GRRM layers meaning.

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11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, I didn't realize it was you or I wouldn't have been so defensive.  Friends have leeway, you know.  I think gut reactions and intuition are sold a little short on the forums.  LOL.  

This would be why I never make alts I don’t admit to. I end up responding the same from each. Lol. And I have to agree. I tend to be too lazy to look up quotes unless I really question how I remember something. With the amount of times I’ve read this series it’s pretty well ingrained. I tend to be more interested in discovering what the most logical outcome is based upon the available information. One thing with GRRM though. He has a tendency to not always choose the most obvious logical outcome, but yet in retrospect the evidence that points to that outcome was there all along. Just well hidden. 

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

It also took, gratefully, your challenged and provided reference to the Torrentine, and underlined, from the reference your provided, that there are bridges and therefore roads and/or trails in that area.

I disagree with your conclusion that the existence of bridges over the Torrentine proves there are roads or trails that lead up and over the Red Mountains heading directly east towards the Prince's Pass. One does not confirm the other.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

The First Men came across the Step Stones area into Dorne and most settled around the Greenblood. A few, the more restless, pushed onward and made homes in the green belt of foothills where storms moving north drop their moisture when they hit the Red Mountains.

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Those who climbed farther took refuge amongst the peaks, in hidden valleys and high mountain meadows where the grass was green and sweet.

Even fewer climbed further, and moved into the Mountains, not stopping at the foothills. Where there are high mountain meadows of green, sweet grass.

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I would argue that the wording mentions the foothills south of the Red Mountains.

Yes. except you used the wrong quote. The Princes Pass is not south of the mountains in that green belt, its in (through) the mountains where there are high meadows of green sweet grass.

Do you have the Lands of Ice and Fire? If so, please review the map of The West. Notice that the east/west range, actually it's more of slant southwest to northeast, but I don't see where this section is connected to the north/south range. Do you? It's not connected, because the gap between the two ranges is the Wide Way, aka the Prince's Pass. 

I'd also like to bring your attention to the colors of the map. Trees, grasslands, mountains, riverlands, and desert are highlighted by color. In Dorne, wherever there is a river cutting through the landscape there is green on either side of the banks. There is a river leading eastward and into the Sea of Dorne just north of Yronwood - do you see it? Do you also see the light green (grassy) areas to the east of Skyreach and then again further north by Vulture's Roost? I'm assuming these two areas make up the grassy belt. The Prince's Pass itself shows hints of light green, but it looks predominantly brown from the presumed tower of joy down past Skyreach. I can only report on what I see.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

False. Just read your own writing. You don't get a north south passage along a north south mountain spine. Its still in the east-west spine, at the western end of that spine.
Surprise surprise, thats what the maps show! And what the text describes.

I don't agree with your assessment that the Prince's Pass is located within the east/west spine. To me it looks like it separates the east/west spine from the north/south spine.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I see the the sophistry used to avoid acknowledging the point.
And its still wrong. Its not safe to cross except at bridges, but the passage does not say there are no other ways.

I have said before that there is no evidence to support or dismiss roads or trails leading over the north/south spine down towards the Torrentine. We simply do not know, so this is a mute point.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Riiight. The Blackmonts are bannermen to the Yronwoods and participate in their culture, wars and clashes by way of Horn Hill in the Reach, to the Stormlands, and back through the Princes Pass or Boneway. Or maybe they go south, past High Hermitage to Starfall, then by sea around the whole of Dorne? Because there is no named pass road or trail between them and the other Stoney Dornish....

Again, you are trying to base your argument on a lack of evidence. We simply do not know how these mountain clans travel. I still fail to see why your suppositions are more valid than mine. 

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4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Interesting idea even if it is far fetched. Definitely shows the heart in conflict with itself. I think it more likely, however that it be a missing Targaryen. Are All of the ones that we assume to be dead actually dead? Could it be one of them? Or alternatively Gerion Lannister or a child of his?

Elissa Farman has been suggested.She stole three dragon eggs having befriended a Targ princess.Buys three ships.Sets off over the Sunset sea.Someone sees a shipwreck a lot like Westeros one near Asshai.

A around 150 years ago!

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