Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

[corbon]

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I disagree with your conclusion that the existence of bridges over the Torrentine proves there are roads or trails that lead up and over the Red Mountains heading directly east towards the Prince's Pass. One does not confirm the other.

Okay. You reason that there are bridges to nowhere, from nowhere, with neither road nor trail to or from them. Got it.

I never said that the roads to the bridges must lead directly east. Just that there are roads and trails that are not marked in the general area.

Its the Blackmont's connections to Yronwood, Kingsgrave and the rest that proves at least some of those roads and trails pass through the mountains in that general direction.
The alternatives are either your contention that perhaps (because we don't know, we are ignorant, we don't have any (other) evidence) the Blackmonts participate in Dornish and Yronwood affairs via Horn Hill-the Stormlands-the Prince Pass. Thats utterly absurd.
Or that the Blackmonts participate in Dornish Marcher affairs and give their allegiance to Yronwood via a trip down the Torrentine to Starfall, then sailing around the entirety of Dorne. Thats equally absurd (and goes against your contention that there is no connection between Blackmont and High Hermitage/Starfall.

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Do you have the Lands of Ice and Fire? If so, please review the map of The West. Notice that the east/west range, actually it's more of slant southwest to northeast, but I don't see where this section is connected to the north/south range. Do you? It's not connected, because the gap between the two ranges is the Wide Way, aka the Prince's Pass. 

Sigh, this is the same thing. We agree. The Princes pass cuts from north to south at the western end of the east-west belt (and the Boneway at the eastern end). You literally claimed... okay, I get what you said. You said it rounds along the north-south mountains, arguing against me saying it runs through the east-west mountains.

You weren't entirely wrong but the way you said it in opposition to my statement made me misinterpret what you said. My bad. We are both right (which is why we agree).

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'd also like to bring your attention to the colors of the map. Trees, grasslands, mountains, riverlands, and desert are highlighted by color. In Dorne, wherever there is a river cutting through the landscape there is green on either side of the banks. There is a river leading eastward and into the Sea of Dorne just north of Yronwood - do you see it? Do you also see the light green (grassy) areas to the east of Skyreach and then again further north by Vulture's Roost? I'm assuming these two areas make up the grassy belt. The Prince's Pass itself shows hints of light green, but it looks predominantly brown from the presumed tower of joy down past Skyreach. I can only report on what I see.

This would be the same map I referenced in post 390. the link is a clearer pic of the relevant area, but clearly the same map.

Funny how you are happy to reference this map in support of your argument but refuse its validity when the subject of the location of the ToJ comes up.

What I see in this map is that all rivers on the map have a green belt around them (even deep into the desert). But the foothills south of the Red Mountains (east-south-east of Skyreach and Southwest of Yronwood) are not green. The two areas you cite, east of skyreach and close to Vultures Reach are both river-adjacent as opposed to hilly.
So the colours are not contextually matching the text. They aren't very relevant, they are just map-pretty.

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I have said before that there is no evidence to support or dismiss roads or trails leading over the north/south spine down towards the Torrentine. We simply do not know, so this is a mute point.

Moot point. But thats not at all true. You dismiss them. You argue that the area is impassable.
And I've provided evidence they exist. Your refusing to acknowledge that its even evidence doesn't make it so.

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Again, you are trying to base your argument on a lack of evidence. We simply do not know how these mountain clans travel. I still fail to see why your suppositions are more valid than mine. 

This is precisely reversed.
I've cited the evidence of bridges across the Torrentine and the connectedness of Blackmont to Yronwood as evidence there must be roads or trails in the general area. And further, somehwere, somehow, some of those roads or trails lead across the mountains from teh Blackmont side to the Yronwood side. Thats called using the evidence. 
Your entire argument is 'we don't know precisely, so there are none'. That is called absence of evidence and only is possible because you ignore the evidence we have.

Any suppositions I'm making are more valid than your because they are based on evidence provided to you in this thread and basic reason (bridges do not exist isolated from roads or trails, etc). Yours are less valid because they are based on a mixture of falsehoods (that impassable cliff? Starfall in a gorge?) and good evidence extrapolated far beyond what it says (the Torrentine is unsafe to cross except by bridges =/=> an impassable obstacle, etc)

Same deal, trying again.

1. The green belt is the foothills along the southern edge of the (east west-ish area) of the Red Mountains. The Red Mountains themselves, at least the parts further north of this green belt, are neither arid nor sandy, but have high meadows of sweet green grass, true or false?

2. There are bridges across the Torrentine and its not safe to cross except at the bridges, true or false?

3. Bridges do not exist in isolation. Where there is a bridge, there is a road or trail leading to and from somewhere, true or false

4. Blackmont is on the western side of the north-south spine of the Red Mountains, beside the Torrentine river, true of false?

5. The Blackmonts of Blackmont are bannermen to the Yronwoods of Yronwood and participate in the affairs of the Yronwoods, Manwoodys, Jordaynes, etc etc, true or false?
 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

7 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Doesn’t one of us say that EVERY SINGLE TIME this man visits New York? I mean my last theory was that he would release BOTH books before the GoT series finale. Didn’t happen. Not sure that I believe it will ever happen at this point. And tbh the show ending has dampened my enthusiasm. If that’s the way it ends I might need to consider at all the time I shave spent analyzing  these books as a waste of time as the ending was completely predictable after all. 

I'm not at all convinced that the books will end similar to the show. What makes you think that's what GRRM has in mind? That's D&D's dumpster fire. Done because they likely never got much beyond a couple generic bullet points from GRRM and because they were in a hurry to get to the Star Wars trilogy...which they were later fired from Well and they eventually admitted they had no idea what they were doing the whole time. This does not convince me that GRRM's ending will be even remotely similar.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

6 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

IIRC you were very involved in the No Roses debate In (maybe) the ALJ Heresy Parentage Project Wrap up thread here on Westeros. If you need a link I believe Wolfmaid provides one in her thread on heresy. 

There's a Heresy parentage thread? Which Heresy?

[Lady Dyanna]

36 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

There's a Heresy parentage thread? Which Heresy?

There are 11 of them. They are not numbered. Theare are 7 of them named by the possible combination of parents for Jon and an additional 4 wrap up threads. All named Heresy Project: X+Y=J. Possibilities include Ned+Wylla, Rhaegar+Lyanna, Mance+Lyanna, Arthur+Lyanna, Stark+Lyanna, Howland+Lyanna, and Robert and Lyanna. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

54 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There are 11 of them. They are not numbered. Theare are 7 of them named by the possible combination of parents for Jon and an additional 4 wrap up threads. All named Heresy Project: X+Y=J. Possibilities include Ned+Wylla, Rhaegar+Lyanna, Mance+Lyanna, Arthur+Lyanna, Stark+Lyanna, Howland+Lyanna, and Robert and Lyanna. 

Thank you. I've got some reading to do!

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, corbon said:

Okay. You reason that there are bridges to nowhere, from nowhere, with neither road nor trail to or from them. Got it.

I never said that the roads to the bridges must lead directly east. Just that there are roads and trails that are not marked in the general area.

Its the Blackmont's connections to Yronwood, Kingsgrave and the rest that proves at least some of those roads and trails pass through the mountains in that general direction.
The alternatives are either your contention that perhaps (because we don't know, we are ignorant, we don't have any (other) evidence) the Blackmonts participate in Dornish and Yronwood affairs via Horn Hill-the Stormlands-the Prince Pass. Thats utterly absurd.
Or that the Blackmonts participate in Dornish Marcher affairs and give their allegiance to Yronwood via a trip down the Torrentine to Starfall, then sailing around the entirety of Dorne. Thats equally absurd (and goes against your contention that there is no connection between Blackmont and High Hermitage/Starfall.

This is your opinion and I have mine. We will have to agree to disagree.

10 hours ago, corbon said:

This would be the same map I referenced in post 390. the link is a clearer pic of the relevant area, but clearly the same map.

Funny how you are happy to reference this map in support of your argument but refuse its validity when the subject of the location of the ToJ comes up.

What I see in this map is that all rivers on the map have a green belt around them (even deep into the desert). But the foothills south of the Red Mountains (east-south-east of Skyreach and Southwest of Yronwood) are not green. The two areas you cite, east of skyreach and close to Vultures Reach are both river-adjacent as opposed to hilly.
So the colours are not contextually matching the text. They aren't very relevant, they are just map-pretty.

You need to accept that some points cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. You need to respect that not everyone will agree with you.

10 hours ago, corbon said:

Moot point. But thats not at all true. You dismiss them. You argue that the area is impassable.
And I've provided evidence they exist. Your refusing to acknowledge that its even evidence doesn't make it so.

"Moot", because we will never reach a consensus on this point. As I've pointed out before, roads and trails can just as easily follow the river north and south. We are lacking information here, so any guess is just as good as another.

10 hours ago, corbon said:

Any suppositions I'm making are more valid than your because they are based on evidence provided to you in this thread and basic reason (bridges do not exist isolated from roads or trails, etc). Yours are less valid because they are based on a mixture of falsehoods (that impassable cliff? Starfall in a gorge?) and good evidence extrapolated far beyond what it says (the Torrentine is unsafe to cross except by bridges =/=> an impassable obstacle, etc)

 

My positions are also based on evidence, but where you and I differ is that I'm willing to accept that there details that are missing and thus open to interpretation and speculation. The fact that the Blackmonts are allies of the Yronwood is not evidence of a road or trail that leads directly between the two strongholds. 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

1. The green belt is the foothills along the southern edge of the (east west-ish area) of the Red Mountains. The Red Mountains themselves, at least the parts further north of this green belt, are neither arid nor sandy, but have high meadows of sweet green grass, true or false?

I agree the green belt runs along the southern edge of the east/west segment of the Red Mountains. Furthermore there are valleys and high meadows of sweet green grass. What I don't agree with is that this includes the Prince's Pass which runs along the north/south range. This north/south range causes any rainclouds coming from the west to release rain on the western side of the range, thus creating a dry, arid region on the east side. 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

2. There are bridges across the Torrentine and its not safe to cross except at the bridges, true or false?

I provided this information, so yes, there is at least one bridge across the Torrentine, possibly more according to how it's phrased. (save by bridge) The World Book states that this is the only safe way across.

11 hours ago, corbon said:

4. Blackmont is on the western side of the north-south spine of the Red Mountains, beside the Torrentine river, true of false?

Blackmont appears to be located on the east bank of the Torrentine where it forks, in a canyon in the middle of the north/south ridge, unless you prefer the mountains on the west side of the Torrentine to be it's own ridge? Then Blackmont is between two north/south ridges. 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

3. Bridges do not exist in isolation. Where there is a bridge, there is a road or trail leading to and from somewhere, true or false

True. The road or trail must come from or lead to somewhere.

11 hours ago, corbon said:

5. The Blackmonts of Blackmont are bannermen to the Yronwoods of Yronwood and participate in the affairs of the Yronwoods, Manwoodys, Jordaynes, etc etc, true or false?

Aren't the Blackmonts and Yronwoods bannermen to the Prince of Dorne?

[Melifeather]

8 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

There's a Heresy parentage thread? Which Heresy?

You can find the links in The Heretics Guide to Heresy. 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'm not at all convinced that the books will end similar to the show.

Yes, it's pretty easy to prove they can't.  This is because GRRM made really basic structural decisions we're all familiar with, and D&D from the start made very different ones. 

Which in turn is why GRRM's prediction from 2011 came true: the show and books got further and further apart the longer the show aired.

This means the series finale is the point in the show that is logically furthest removed from the books.  It is definitely not GRRM's ending -- not even close.  At best he might have gotten a good laugh out of it, but if the actual reaction were shock and disgust that wouldn't surprise me either.