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Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

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3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Daenerys, Viserys, and Quentyn already fulfilled the historic event called the Dance of the Dragons. 

When Rhaenyra lost the Dance of the Dragons to her younger half-brother Aegon II, he fed her to his dragon Sunfyre. Quentyn fulfilled the role of Rhaenyra being devoured by a dragon. He literally was the sun's son who was set on  fyre fire and consumed by dragons.

GRRMs short story The Princess and the Queen provides the details of the Dance of the Dragons. It features an elder daughter named Rhaenyra fighting over the line of succession against her younger half-brother Aegon II, who initially wasn't expecting to inherit and didn't even really want to be king until his mother convinced him that he had the better claim just because he was male.

Quentyn's older sister Arianne was concerned about the line of inheritance and her position as her father's heir, because she was female. Daenerys was Viserys's younger sister, and she never expected to become heir to the Targaryen throne - just like Aegon II - for two reasons: 1) she was the younger sibling, and 2) she was female. She and Viserys were the reverse of Rhaenyra and Aegon II. Rhaenyra's death cemented Aegon II's claim, while Viserys's death cemented Daenerys's.

The Dance of the Dragons 2.0 has already occurred. IMO that may have been Bloodraven's intention. He couldn't prevent the Prince that was Promised prophecy from unfolding nor prevent dragons from hatching, but he managed to keep it from happening within Westeros.

Young Griff may have the appearance of having a Targaryen claim, but he's fulfilling two different roles. First - He's symbolically "the Rhoynar" since he came to Westeros by way of the Rhoyne. And secondly - He's landed upon the eastern shore of Westeros under the support of the Golden Company like a Blackfyre Pretender

Hmmm. Or does it just read like that because of the choices that Dany made? What if she had decided to let Drogo die? Would Rhaego then exist? What if Jorah wasn’t there to direct her? She may well have tried to head west before heading east. And maybe she got there or maybe her path was blocked some other way. Say that Jorah never stopped the wine merchant. She would have died in Vaes Dothrak. These are all things that have been written so we know conclusively how they turn out. But what happens if Dany makes a conscious decision not to be a Dragon and heads back to Westeros. What if she makes the same choice but still isn’t able to get to Westeros for some reason? 

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3 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

You're one of the best theorists on this site. I think you should read TWOW for the sake of theories at the least. There are always ways to read books without buying them.

Bleeding wha?

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6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Quaithe keeps reminding Daenerys to remember who she is. Who is she exactly? Is she the type of ruler who must put on her floppy rabbit ears and listen to petitioners? Or is she a dragonlord-khaleesi? The choice between Hizdahr or Daario is symbolic of the choice Daenerys must make for herself. One is duty, but the other is her true passion.

Is there a reason why it’s an either/or choice? Does it really need to be a choice between the two? Isn’t there a way to compromise so that everyone ends up happy? It might take some creativity to get all the necessary characters on board with the idea. But it seems it should still be possible. 

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I have every confidence that GRRM will turn out a book that makes logistical sense and that every mystery he chooses to reveal will make sense in hind sight. Furthermore, it will become apparent that the hints were there all along even if no one picked up on them. One of his objectives is to surprise and delight his readers, and I think we will be both surprised and delighted - regardless if our personal favorite theories are confirmed or debunked.

Hey, most normal people probably don’t even have theories, should be pretty easy to surprise and delight them. It just becomes more difficult when you have two readers with conflicting opinions on how the story proceeds. What does GRRM do then? You risk losing readers no matter what you do. Unless you can find some sort of compromise. 

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1 hour ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Hmmm. Or does it just read like that because of the choices that Dany made? What if she had decided to let Drogo die? Would Rhaego then exist? What if Jorah wasn’t there to direct her? She may well have tried to head west before heading east. And maybe she got there or maybe her path was blocked some other way. Say that Jorah never stopped the wine merchant. She would have died in Vaes Dothrak. These are all things that have been written so we know conclusively how they turn out. But what happens if Dany makes a conscious decision not to be a Dragon and heads back to Westeros. What if she makes the same choice but still isn’t able to get to Westeros for some reason? 

What seems apparent to me may not be so for everyone else, so I ask your indulgence in considering these thoughts...

 I think the characters are affected by the wheel of time whether they realize it or not, but what does seem evident to me is that there exists an unseen "hand" or "force" that exerts "pressure" or "encouragement" in character decision making. It's as if they are all simply playing pieces on a giant game of Cyvasse. The game board has been setup to replay historical events - events that we have been schooled in which have occurred, are currently unfolding, and will continue to occur into the next book. The characters don't even realize that they are participating in a game or even cooperating with the needed friends, relatives, and enemies that are required in each circumstance. Certainly Daenerys had no prior instruction on how to hatch those dragons eggs, and yet somehow she "knew" - intuitively - if intuition is even the correct word for it. Which begs the question, is there even a such thing as free will?

1 hour ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Is there a reason why it’s an either/or choice? Does it really need to be a choice between the two? Isn’t there a way to compromise so that everyone ends up happy? It might take some creativity to get all the necessary characters on board with the idea. But it seems it should still be possible. 

It's just my opinion that Daenerys is being presented with a choice between "Hizdahr" (duty) and "Daario" (passion) - and powerful forces are pressuring her to choose a specific path. I just happen to believe that she will choose to stay in Essos. I could be wrong. She may decide to accept "duty" and continue on the path back to Westeros like the majority here expect. I just don't see that happening.

Just an aside. I was watching a nature program about the Harpy eagle. It's nearly four feet tall and hunts monkeys for prey! 

Edited by Melifeather

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7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Which begs the question, is there even a such thing as free will?

There’s always free will. Just because you instinctively know how to do something, It doesn’t meant that you choose to actually do it. The story is already written as far as what Dany needs to do to hatch dragons. That part is done and over with. It’s written in stone. But there were a million small decisions that took her to that point. Without them how would she have gotten there? And if all of the visions are true then why would there ever be visions of things that will never be? 

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17 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The characters don't even realize that they are participating in a game or even cooperating with the needed friends, relatives, and enemies that are required in each circumstance

Hmmm. Seems that someone was neglectful if the characters, including Dany, are truly part of a game and nobody has told them? I mean isn’t it possible for that knowledge itself change the course of action and the eventual outcome? 

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12 minutes ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Hmmm. Seems that someone was neglectful if the characters, including Dany, are truly part of a game and nobody has told them? I mean isn’t it possible for that knowledge itself change the course of action and the eventual outcome? 

People in real life will sometimes attribute a tragedy or even something seemingly miraculous as having been directed by "God's hand" or that is was "God's will". What is the will of the old gods?

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1 hour ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Hey, most normal people probably don’t even have theories, should be pretty easy to surprise and delight them. It just becomes more difficult when you have two readers with conflicting opinions on how the story proceeds. What does GRRM do then? You risk losing readers no matter what you do. Unless you can find some sort of compromise. 

There is no need for fans to compromise. We can be a passionate bunch on Heresy, but we do usually strive to disagree in an agreeable manner. I owe JNR an apology for reacting so strongly to his opinion by calling him pompous. I shouldn't have criticized him personally - just his assertion, which I still think is ridiculous. 

Edited by Melifeather

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7 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

People in real life will sometimes attribute a tragedy or even something seemingly miraculous as having been directed by "God's hand" or that is was "God's will". What is the will of the old gods?

To play devils advocate... What difference does it make what the old gods want. It’s not their decision to make. Just because you say something, that doesn’t necessarily make it true. Like anything else unknown, one might choose to use god’s will as an explanation, but it still remains that there is no proof other than what one chooses to believe. 

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13 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

There is no need for fans to compromise. We can be a passionate bunch on Heresy, but we do usually strive to disagree in an agreeable manner. I owe JNR an apology for reacting so strongly to his opinion by calling him pompous. I shouldn't have criticized him personally - just the idea, which I still think is ridiculous. 

Ok. Then what would you call it when the story isn’t exactly as you anticipated it, but you still find it enjoyable. I’d see that as a compromise. 

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19 minutes ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

To play devils advocate... What difference does it make what the old gods want. It’s not their decision to make. Just because you say something, that doesn’t necessarily make it true. Like anything else unknown, one might choose to use god’s will as an explanation, but it still remains that there is no proof other than what one chooses to believe. 

Well, Leaf's words to Bran seem to imply that the Children know what the future holds and Bran's education is of paramount importance. Why would that be if they do not have the power to manipulate future events?

15 minutes ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Ok. Then what would you call it when the story isn’t exactly as you anticipated it, but you still find it enjoyable. I’d see that as a compromise. 

Then I misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to the followers of Heresy and this forum. Rephrasing your intention doesn't help me however, to follow your logic. Why would anyone need to compromise in order to find the story enjoyable? You either accept that GRRM is telling his own story, or you believe that he's being influenced by the fans.

Edited by Melifeather

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45 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Well, Leaf's words to Bran seem to imply that the Children know what the future holds and Bran's education is of paramount importance. Why would that be if they do not have the power to manipulate future events?

Then I misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to the followers of Heresy and this forum. Rephrasing your intention doesn't help me however, to follow your logic. Why would anyone need to compromise in order to find the story enjoyable? You either accept that GRRM is telling his own story, or you believe that he's being influenced by the fans.

Are you arguing with yourself?

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4 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

Since when is RLJ a hogwash theory. It’s one on the most strongly evidenced theories out there. But just because something has the most evidence it doesn’t mean that it’s correct. Otherwise Heresy would never have existed. It’s whole point is to look at lesser considered alternatives to those of the main stream. 

The Faith Militant version of RLJ is certainly hogwash. Even the best RLJ theory can't place Rhaegar and Lyanna even on the same continent during the required time period, let alone also place Jon with them or prove that Lyanna was even pregnant.

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4 hours ago, Blue Eyed Wolf Girl said:

It could also be argued that if GRRM really wanted people to read his book, he would actually, ya know, write it. How long does one give him before they lose interest? He’s taking a pretty big risk right now the way he is working that he will continue to lose more and more readers as time goes by. But clearly he doesn’t have his focus on that. There’s something else more important to him. That’s writing the best story that he can. Just seems that there should be a way to do both. Write a good story AND give the reader the speedy writing time that they require. 

The way he could write the best story he can to his satisfaction and release them fast enough to satisfy fans is to actually sit down and write the books instead of writing something else and constantly traveling instead of writing. Something he probably hasn't done since delivering ASOS. Something he definitely hasn't done since delivering ADWD.

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Why would that be if they do not have the power to manipulate future events?

They do. They have the capability of influencing  people’s future choices. 

 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Why would anyone need to compromise in order to find the story enjoyable? You either accept that GRRM is telling his own story, or you believe that he's being influenced by the fans.

Or you can accept that GRRM is still telling his story, but has also been influenced by the fans. He claims that to not be the case, but how is it possible that the occurrences of the past, what 20 years? Haven’t had an influence on him as well, giving him new ideas. 

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

There is no need for fans to compromise. We can be a passionate bunch on Heresy, but we do usually strive to disagree in an agreeable manner. I owe JNR an apology for reacting so strongly to his opinion by calling him pompous. I shouldn't have criticized him personally - just his assertion, which I still think is ridiculous. 

Well if GRRM releases TWOW, it obviously can't be fanfiction, it will be canon. But it can be a poor imitation of his earlier self circa AGOT-ASOS. 

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