Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

[JNR]

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'd hate it if all this prophecy stuff  turned out to be a big nothing burger.  I'm interested in this stuff. 

I'd call it an Impossible Burger.  

Tasty, definitely tasty... but at a basic level, it's probably not what we'd expect.

7 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

It would absolutely suck to never get to read the end.

Yeah, this is the one theory every single Heretic believes. 

Still, until proven otherwise, in George we trust.  He's an optimist, but he's also a chess player, and in chess, excellence and efficiency are very closely related concepts. 

So if GRRM can get the chess part of his brain talking to the story part of his brain, he will probably see a thousand ways he can tell more story in fewer words/chapters/books.  Some of them may be the very ones we've been discussing.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I probably have a few things to say about it; but I'm going to hospital this morning.

Good luck, and when you get back, I hope you do the guest edition. Prophecy is a fun topic that spans all kinds of theories, characters, symbolism, etc., and you always say things I didn't see coming.

[JNR]

It also crosses my mind that Cersei would never have been able to cut an HBO deal with GRRM.  

He would have given her the standard pop quiz, and when she said:

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Who was the mother, I wonder?

... that would've been that.  (And maybe we'd all have been better off.)

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, corbon said:

No, you aren't. The sands of Dorne are far south of the Princes pass, on the other side of a green belt of foothills.

Where is this sheer cliff mentioned? Not in any canon I can find. And certainly not a single endless cliff for hundreds of leagues. That surely would be a notable feature readily remarked upon.

In parts no doubt. Its a mountain river. Roaring and tumultuous. Which does not make it impassable. But where is this description mentioned? Its not in canon I can find.

He didn't, as far as I can tell.

Starfall is not situated at the bottom of a Royal Gorge like canyon. Its on an island at the mouth of the Torentine river. 

Somehow, despite this impossible terrain that you've sprung from ... somewhere, House Dayne has been able to found a second seat at High Hermitage, upriver. And Ser Gerold can get in and out. Not to mention the Blackmonts of Blackmont, even further upriver.
Not to mention that despite your fantastic utter isolation from teh rest of Dorne, they've been a rich, powerful and influential House throughout Dornish history.

I'd like to know how you've constructed this... description?

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: Kingdoms of the First Men

We shall not attempt to speak of all of these. Most ruled over domains so small, or conquests so short-lived, that they are scarce worthy of note. A few of the greatest do warrant mention, however: those whose lines put down deep roots and endured for thousands of years to come.

At the mouth of the Torrentine, House Dayne raised its castle on an island where that roaring, tumultuous river broadens to meet the sea. Legend says the first Dayne was led to the site when he followed the track of a falling star and there found a stone of magical powers. His descendants ruled over the western mountains for centuries thereafter as Kings of the Torrentine and Lords of Starfall.

The passage above describes the Torrentine/Torentine (spelled both ways) as a "roaring, tumultuous river". 

With regards to the Prince's Pass, the first passage below describes the Prince's Pass as a gap that connects Dorne to the Reach. No mention as a way to reach Starfall. The names of the castles along the way speaks to the rockiness and heights of the mountains.

The second passage down is from a Samwell chapter which describes the difficulty in reaching Starfall over land. Kojja Mo is the daughter of the captain of the Cinnamon Wind, the ship that Sam took to Oldtown. She describes the coast of Dorne as sand, rocks, scorpions, with no good place to anchor. Kojja further expands on the difficulties by saying Sam could try and walk to Oldtown. He'd have to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Basically, it's an impossible task. To keep her words in context, Kojja is trying to force Sam to go to Gilly on the ship by threatening to throw him overboard. Sam had been avoiding Gilly, because he was embarrassed about breaking his vow and having sex with Gilly. Sam has already witnessed Kojja's skills. She killed a dozen pirates who tried to board the ship near the Stepstones, so Sam knows that she's not kidding. She will throw him overboard and he will never reach Oldtown, because even if he managed to swim to shore, he cannot get there by walking over the mountains.

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North and east, beyond a great gap in the mountains that provided the shortest and easiest passage from Dorne to the Reach, House Fowler carved its own seat into the stony slopes overlooking the pass. Skyreach, that seat became known, for its lofty perch and soaring stone towers. At the time, the pass it brooded over was commonly known as the Wide Way (today we name it the Prince's Pass), so the Fowlers took for themselves the grandiose titles of Lords of Skyreach, Lords of the Wide Way, and Kings of Stone and Sky.

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

Near the end of Sam's watch, he was finally cornered. He was climbing down a ladder when Xhondo seized him by the collar. "Black Sam come with Xhondo," he said, dragging him across the deck and dumping him at the feet of Kojja Mo.

Far off to the north, a haze was visible low on the horizon. Kojja pointed at it. "There is the coast of Dorne. Sand and rocks and scorpions, and no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues. You can swim there if you like, and walk to Oldtown. You will need to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Or else you could go to Gilly."

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne

Most Dornish rivers are in full flood only after the rare (and dangerous) rainstorms. The rest of the year they are dry gullies. In all of Dorne, only three rivers flow day and night, winter and summer, without ever going dry. The Torrentine, arising high in the western mountains, plunges down to the sea in a series of rapids and waterfalls, howling through canyons and crevasses with a sound like the roar of some great beast. Rising from mountain springs, its waters are sweet and pure, but dangerous to cross, save by bridge, and impossible to navigate. The Brimstone is a far more placid stream, but its cloudy yellow waters stink of sulfur, and the plants that grow along its banks are strange and stunted things. (Of the men who live along those selfsame banks, we shall not speak). But the Greenblood's waters, if sometimes muddy, are healthful for plant and animal alike, and farms and orchards crowd the river's banks for hundreds of leagues. Moreover, the Greenblood and its vassals, the Vaith and the Scourge, are navigable by boat almost to their source (if shallow and plagued by sandbars in places), and therefore serve as the principality's chief artery for trade.

The description of the Torrentine/Torentine is from the World Book - arguably NOT canon and semi-canon at best, but the subject matter that Maester Yandel is describing are simply the physical features of a location, and not anything that would be changed for political gain or to flatter King Robert.

 

[Melifeather]

26 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yeah, this is the one theory every single Heretic believes. 

Well, speaking for myself, I fully expect to read Winds. Not so sure about Dream unless he releases both books simultaneously. Wouldn't that be a nice Christmas surprise? 

[Melifeather]

I second the motion to discuss prophecy, but I also enjoy discussing symbolism. The part of Ned's dream about the blood streaked sky and the dead flower petals that fell from Lyanna's hand - it would be interesting to discuss how individual readers interpreted them.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

13 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The passage above describes the Torrentine/Torentine (spelled both ways) as a "roaring, tumultuous river". 

With regards to the Prince's Pass, the first passage below describes the Prince's Pass as a gap that connects Dorne to the Reach. No mention as a way to reach Starfall. The names of the castles along the way speaks to the rockiness and heights of the mountains.

The second passage down is from a Samwell chapter which describes the difficulty in reaching Starfall over land. Kojja Mo is the daughter of the captain of the Cinnamon Wind, the ship that Sam took to Oldtown. She describes the coast of Dorne as sand, rocks, scorpions, with no good place to anchor. Kojja further expands on the difficulties by saying Sam could try and walk to Oldtown. He'd have to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Basically, it's an impossible task. To keep her words in context, Kojja is trying to force Sam to go to Gilly on the ship by threatening to throw him overboard. Sam had been avoiding Gilly, because he was embarrassed about breaking his vow and having sex with Gilly. Sam has already witnessed Kojja's skills. She killed a dozen pirates who tried to board the ship near the Stepstones, so Sam knows that she's not kidding. She will throw him overboard and he will never reach Oldtown, because even if he managed to swim to shore, he cannot get there by walking over the mountains.

The description of the Torrentine/Torentine is from the World Book - arguably NOT canon and semi-canon at best, but the subject matter that Maester Yandel is describing are simply the physical features of a location, and not anything that would be changed for political gain or to flatter King Robert.

 

The World Book is absolutely NOT canon. It was partially written by the owner of this forum for crying out loud. Plus George himself warned against treating it as 100% accurate. Plus it's supposedly 1 of 3 versions, the other 2 apparently to be released in "GRRMarillion".

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Well, speaking for myself, I fully expect to read Winds. Not so sure about Dream unless he releases both books simultaneously. Wouldn't that be a nice Christmas surprise? 

I do have this crackpot theory that the delay is caused by GRRM needing to finish ADOS in order to finalize TWOW because his gardener style could put him in a corner he can't get out of in ADOS if he releases TWOW and therefore can't go back and change whatever he needs to.

Less crackpot I'm thinking we may get two huge books at once. TWOW: Part 1 and TWOW Part 2.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I second the motion to discuss prophecy, but I also enjoy discussing symbolism. The part of Ned's dream about the blood streaked sky and the dead flower petals that fell from Lyanna's hand - it would be interesting to discuss how individual readers interpreted them.

Prophecy and symbolism sounds like a great topic to me.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 11/17/2019 at 7:14 AM, JNR said:

Yeah, this is a point I've made myself... with worry in my head... many times. 

I'd put it like this: I believe he can learn to be an architect more than I believe he can accelerate his total writing pace and thus publish three or more huge books in the next ten years.

I think he sees it the same way.

Well, as you say, we don't know.

I would guess it's more about just basic projection.  If you are somebody like Anne Groell, you are extremely familiar with GRRM's nature and tendencies, and also with the canon that remains to be written. 

So you can easily project forward and see that finishing in only seven books would require a very un-GRRM-like efficiency in storytelling execution... and you might gently suggest to him, many times for years now, that he may actually need eight books, even though you have never read all of TWOW or anywhere close to it.

I'm pretty sure she's done interviews in which she says exactly that, in fact.  And they are old ones, when he had only done a few hundred pages of TWOW.

He doesn't actually need to write faster, as in more words per day spent writing. He just needs to spend more days writing in order to write faster.

However, I do agree with what you left unsaid. Instead of spending more days writing ASOIAF, he will continue to find distractions that take up the vast majority of his time.

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

The World Book is absolutely NOT canon. It was partially written by the owner of this forum for crying out loud. Plus George himself warned against treating it as 100% accurate. Plus it's supposedly 1 of 3 versions, the other 2 apparently to be released in "GRRMarillion".

The World Book is intended to be accepted as an "in-world" history book written by a maester as a gift for King Robert. I think we can reasonably believe a lot of the information that would be "accepted" by the characters, in particular things that would be easy to discredit like the geography of various regions. I do not think Maester Yandel has inflated the dangers of the Torrentine River.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

43 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The World Book is intended to be accepted as an "in-world" history book written by a maester as a gift for King Robert. I think we can reasonably believe a lot of the information that would be "accepted" by the characters, in particular things that would be easy to discredit like the geography of various regions. I do not think Maester Yandel has inflated the dangers of the Torrentine River.

I understand what the World Book was intended as. It's not canon though. Not anymore than anything else said by Ran/Elio.

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

He's an optimist, but he's also a chess player, and in chess, excellence and efficiency are very closely related concepts. 

Guess he's not that good in chess. His efficiency is questionable at best.

And if you sit around doing nothing your clock ticks down and you lose the game.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

20 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Guess he's not that good in chess. His efficiency is questionable at best.

And if you sit around doing nothing your clock ticks down and you lose the game.

So that's how we got AFFC.

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I understand what the World Book was intended as. It's not canon though. Not anymore than anything else said by Ran/Elio.

So it is your position that Ran/Elio made up the geographic details about the Torrentine out of his own imagination without regard to the passage I've included about Sam on the Cinnamon Wind?

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Instead of spending more days writing ASOIAF, he will continue to find distractions that take up the vast majority of his time.

Well, I'm thinking of the story, as opposed to his lifestyle.   He's probably not going to start writing on the road... but a shorter and more efficient book (like AGOT) is just faster and easier and more fun for him to write.  He gets it done.

That kind of efficiency also increases the probability he finishes ASOIAF if he does it with both TWOW and ADOS.

I think we all agree the sample chapters from TWOW aren't promising, in the department of storytelling efficiency.  I also agree efficiency is not his strength in recent books, especially in Brienne's AFFC storyline (aimless wandering) and in Dany's ADWD storyline ("Aragorn's tax policy")... but he's probably never had such a strong incentive to tighten things up as he has now.

We can only wait and see. 

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Guess he's not that good in chess. His efficiency is questionable at best.

Well, Roger Zelazny wrote "Unicorn Variation" as a tribute to GRRM in this department and Roger was, like GRRM, an extremely sharp guy.

But there's no doubt GRRM needs to be more of an architect at this stage than a gardener. Great architects do a splendid job with the available resources, in the available time and the available space... just as great chessmasters find a way to win even if they are a piece down in a game, and they don't waste moves making it happen.  We'll see what GRRM comes up with.

[Melifeather]

The "chess world" likes to credit Bobby Fischer for helping GRRM rise as an author by providing the means to support his writing career by being a chess tournament director: https://en.chessbase.com/post/game-of-thrones-and-bobby-fischer

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In his books, besides the obvious complexities in the story itself, chess has a glaring presence. In the books, Martin has consistently made the game of Cyvasse a setting for important scenes. Cyvasse is a game which originates from Volantis, a fictional city in the storyline. The game is played by two players and features ten pieces, each with different powers and attributes.

Here are some excerpts of the dialogues in the books where the game is a part of the setting, and note its obvious relationship with chess:

"Cyvasse , the game was called. It had come to the Planky Town on a trading galley from Volantis, and the orphans had spread it up and down the Greenblood. TheDornish court was mad for it. Ser Arys just found it maddening." — Thoughts of Arys Oakheart

"I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four." — Tyrion Lannister

"You have other pieces besides the dragon, princess. Try moving them sometime." — Daemon Sand

 

 

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In an exclusive chat with Geoffrey Macnab for the British news agency The Independent, the legendary writer revealed that he had been a player with a USCF rating of 1905 in 1990-91. Here are excerpts from the piece where Martin describes his association with chess:

"I started playing chess when I was quite young, in grade school. I played it through high school. In college, I founded the chess club. I was captain of the chess team." In the American chess rating system, Martin was categorised at his peak as "expert," one rank below "master".

"The importance of chess to me was not as a player but as a tournament director. In my early 20s, I was writing. I sold a few short stories. My big dream was to be a full-time writer and support myself with my fiction but I wasn't making enough money to pay my rent and pay the phone bill – so I had to have a day job."

In 1972, Bobby Fischer did Martin a huge favour by winning the world chess championship. "Bobby Fischer played Boris Spassky in Reykjavík and won – and the entire American chess community went nuts!"

On the back of Fischer's success, the game became hugely popular. Martin was hired to direct the Midwestern circuit for a national organisation that ran chess tournaments. "For two or three years, I had a pretty good situation. Most writers who have to have a day job work five days a week and then they have the weekend off to write. These chess tournaments were all on the weekend so I had to work on Saturday and Sunday – but then I had five days off to write. The chess generated enough money for me to pay my bills."

 

 

 

 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

Good luck, and when you get back, I hope you do the guest edition. Prophecy is a fun topic that spans all kinds of theories, characters, symbolism, etc., and you always say things I didn't see coming.

Thank you.  I'm just too tired right now.   It's not  prophecy so much as it is all the dreams, visions or characters like Quaithe that are still open to interpretation.  We've been talking about this stuff for years and I just wonder if heretics have changed their minds about all these riddles.  For example: has anyone ever read anything, anywhere about Quaite's travel instructions for Dany?  What do you think it means, if anything?  Does anyone have any different ideas about Bran's coma dream or what might be located beyond the curtain of light, north and north and north beyond the deadlands?  Should we revisit all the characters dreams including Arya, who gets little mention.

Was Ned a green dreamer?  His fever dream has the qualities of a green dream, if you recall Jojen's dream of the sea coming to Winterfell.  Jojen took advice from Howland and was sent with Meera to protect Bran.  Ned's dream has all the symbolic quality of a green dream, occurs not long before MMD wakes the old powers and Dany hatches her eggs on the day of the Comet.  He most certainly has knowledge of the White Walkers from Gared, the ravings of a madman.   Why did the WW's release Gared at all?  Was it to bring word to Stark?   We're back and we're waiting for you?  Knowledge has been lost, things that shouldn't have been forgotten.

What about old Nan's tales? Any new interpretations? Just some of the questions that make up my tasty burger.  LOL

[corbon]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The passage above describes the Torrentine/Torentine (spelled both ways) as a "roaring, tumultuous river". 

Yup. Incidentally, its the 'both ways' spelling that meant I couldn't find the extra passage you showed, so thanks for that. Everything I found was 1r so I never thought to try an alternate spelling.

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With regards to the Prince's Pass, the first passage below describes the Prince's Pass as a gap that connects Dorne to the Reach. No mention as a way to reach Starfall. The names of the castles along the way speaks to the rockiness and heights of the mountains.

Yes, we know the Princes Pass runs from Dorne to the Reach, from Skyfall to Nightsong. Its the easiest way between the Reach and Dorne. 
That doesn't mean its a wormhole, with only an entrance and exit. It also doesn't mean its the only route to anywhere through the mountains.
It also doesn't mean it goes all the way to the sands of Dorne. It goes from the Reach to the green belt of hills in Dorne.

The Princes Pass is not 'a way to reach Starfall'. No one has suggested that in any way shape or form. But nothing excludes, and several things clearly point to , there being ways to reach Starfall from the Princes Pass, ways that do not require passing through the Dornish desert.

Yes, the mountains are high and rocky. but people get through them. There are castles and people travel between them. Starfall, High Hermitage and Blackmont are Dornish and participate in Dornish politics and society, not the Reach, which is closer and doesn't have the Torrentine in the way. 

Just to remind you, travellers in small groups can use roads and trails that armies cannot. But even small (friendly) armies must travel these routes or the forces of House Blackmont could not be a factor in any military operations.

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"Permit me to acquaint you with them, my lord of Lannister. Ser Deziel Dalt, of Lemonwood. Lord Tremond Gargalen. Lord Harmen Uller and his brother Ser Ulwyck. Ser Ryon Allyrion and his natural son Ser Daemon Sand, the Bastard of Godsgrace. Lord Dagos Manwoody, his brother Ser Myles, his sons Mors and Dickon. Ser Arron Qorgyle. And never let it be thought that I would neglect the ladies. Myria Jordayne, heir to the Tor. Lady Larra Blackmont, her daughter Jynessa, her son Perros." He raised a slender hand toward a black-haired woman to the rear, beckoning her forward. "And this is Ellaria Sand, mine own paramour."

Lady Blackmont and her children are among the Dornish notables Tyrion meets outside Kings Landing. 

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For nine years Mors Martell and his allies (amongst them House Fowler of Skyreach, House Toland of Ghost Hill, House Dayne of Starfall, and House Uller of the Hellholt) struggled against Yronwood and his bannermen (the Jordaynes of the Tor, the Wyls of the Stone Way, together with the Blackmonts, the Qorgyles, and many more), in battles too numerous to mention. When Mors Martell fell to Yorick Yronwood's sword in the Third Battle of the Boneway, Princess Nymeria assumed sole command of his armies. Two more years of battle were required, but in the end it was Nymeria that Yorick Yronwood bent the knee to, and Nymeria who ruled thereafter from Sunspear.

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The stony Dornish have the most in common with those north of the mountains and are the least touched by Rhoynish custom. This has not made them close allies with the Marcher lords or the Lords of the Reach, however; on the contrary, it has been said that the mountain lords have a history as savage as that of the mountain clans of the Vale, having for thousands of years warred with the Reach and the stormlands, as well as with each other. If the ballads tell of brave skirmishes with cruel Dornishmen in the marches, it is largely to do with the lords of Blackmont and Kingsgrave, of Wyl and Skyreach. And of Yronwood, as well. The Wardens of the Stone Way remain the proudest and most powerful of House Martell's vassals, and theirs has been an uneasy relationship at best.

Clearly the Blackmonts - on the far side of those mountains - are geographically connected to the other Stony Dornishmen, as they are listed with the Lords of Kinsgrave, Wyl, Skyreach etc and fought against (I can't actually tell precisely if they were bannermen to Yronwood or allies) the Martells as they united Dorne.

There are ways through the mountains.
 

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

Near the end of Sam's watch, he was finally cornered. He was climbing down a ladder when Xhondo seized him by the collar. "Black Sam come with Xhondo," he said, dragging him across the deck and dumping him at the feet of Kojja Mo.

Far off to the north, a haze was visible low on the horizon. Kojja pointed at it. "There is the coast of Dorne. Sand and rocks and scorpions, and no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues. You can swim there if you like, and walk to Oldtown. You will need to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Or else you could go to Gilly."

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The second passage down is from a Samwell chapter which describes the difficulty in reaching Starfall over land. Kojja Mo is the daughter of the captain of the Cinnamon Wind, the ship that Sam took to Oldtown. She describes the coast of Dorne as sand, rocks, scorpions, with no good place to anchor.

Yes, most of the coast of Dorne is like that. And not at all relevant to our discussion.

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Kojja further expands on the difficulties by saying Sam could try and walk to Oldtown. He'd have to cross the deep desert and climb some mountains and swim the Torentine. Basically, it's an impossible task.

Right. From where he is, which is a completely different place and requires completely different travel and hardships. Plus, he's Fat Sam, has no horses, no supplies, no comrades.

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To keep her words in context, Kojja is trying to force Sam to go to Gilly on the ship by threatening to throw him overboard. Sam had been avoiding Gilly, because he was embarrassed about breaking his vow and having sex with Gilly. Sam has already witnessed Kojja's skills. She killed a dozen pirates who tried to board the ship near the Stepstones, so Sam knows that she's not kidding. She will throw him overboard and

Agreed. And from that context its not unlikely that she's exaggerating the tasks required, though frankly the first two need no exaggeration.

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he will never reach Oldtown, because even if he managed to swim to shore, he cannot get there by walking over the mountains.

Bullshit. He won't reach Oldtown because a) he's Sam, b) he's got to cross the desert, and he's Sam, c) he has no horses, no skills, no supplies, has to cross the desert and he's Sam. Crossing the mountains and the Torrentine are not impossible tasks, they are just magnified tasks to demonstrate the futility of even trying. Sam swimming ashore and crossing the desert is already an impossible task.

4 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

The World Book is absolutely NOT canon. It was partially written by the owner of this forum for crying out loud. Plus George himself warned against treating it as 100% accurate. Plus it's supposedly 1 of 3 versions, the other 2 apparently to be released in "GRRMarillion".

Sigh. the very books themselves are extremely far from 100% accurate. You are using the wrong meaning of canon. And pointlessly mis-applying the meaning you are using

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The World Book is intended to be accepted as an "in-world" history book written by a maester as a gift for King Robert. I think we can reasonably believe a lot of the information that would be "accepted" by the characters, in particular things that would be easy to discredit like the geography of various regions. I do not think Maester Yandel has inflated the dangers of the Torrentine River.

Totally agreed. Its utterly absurd to not take the World Book as generally accurate in terms of geography and the like.

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The description of (below) the Torrentine/Torentine is from the World Book - arguably NOT canon and semi-canon at best, but the subject matter that Maester Yandel is describing are simply the physical features of a location, and not anything that would be changed for political gain or to flatter King Robert.

Agreed. I couldn't find this one. You were right in parts of your description, and thanks for providing the quote.

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne

Most Dornish rivers are in full flood only after the rare (and dangerous) rainstorms. The rest of the year they are dry gullies. In all of Dorne, only three rivers flow day and night, winter and summer, without ever going dry. The Torrentine, arising high in the western mountains, plunges down to the sea in a series of rapids and waterfalls, howling through canyons and crevasses with a sound like the roar of some great beast. Rising from mountain springs, its waters are sweet and pure, but dangerous to cross, save by bridge, and impossible to navigate.

Right. So its not navigable. But there are bridges. And therefore roads or trails.

And there are canyons and crevasses, as well as rapids and waterfalls. As you said. But no sheer cliff that must be passed with no route. And Starfall is not deep in a massive gorge, or impossible to Reach.

 

You started with some accurate basics that describe generally difficult terrain, and made up a whole bunch more to make it idealistically impossible for Ned to travel from inside the Princes Pass to Starfall overland. 
But the truth is that there is nothing impossible about it, not necessarily even anything particularly difficult about it for a well equipped party already in the Princes Pass, and clearly many other people do it as Blackmont especially (according to your false descriptions literally impossible to connect to anywhere else in Dorne), but also High Hermitage (ditto) and Starfall (only by sea along a coast with no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues) are regular participants in the political, social and military life of the Stony Dornish of the Marches.

 

There is no indication Ned ever saw the sands of Dorne, and no indication that it would be particularly difficult for him to move form the ToJ, located in the Princes Pass, to Starfall, through through Red Mountains and across the Torrentine.

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yup. Incidentally, its the 'both ways' spelling that meant I couldn't find the extra passage you showed, so thanks for that. Everything I found was 1r so I never thought to try an alternate spelling.

Yes, we know the Princes Pass runs from Dorne to the Reach, from Skyfall to Nightsong. Its the easiest way between the Reach and Dorne. 
That doesn't mean its a wormhole, with only an entrance and exit. It also doesn't mean its the only route to anywhere through the mountains.
It also doesn't mean it goes all the way to the sands of Dorne. It goes from the Reach to the green belt of hills in Dorne.

The Princes Pass is not 'a way to reach Starfall'. No one has suggested that in any way shape or form. But nothing excludes, and several things clearly point to , there being ways to reach Starfall from the Princes Pass, ways that do not require passing through the Dornish desert.

Yes, the mountains are high and rocky. but people get through them. There are castles and people travel between them. Starfall, High Hermitage and Blackmont are Dornish and participate in Dornish politics and society, not the Reach, which is closer and doesn't have the Torrentine in the way. 

Just to remind you, travellers in small groups can use roads and trails that armies cannot. But even small (friendly) armies must travel these routes or the forces of House Blackmont could not be a factor in any military operations.

Lady Blackmont and her children are among the Dornish notables Tyrion meets outside Kings Landing. 

Clearly the Blackmonts - on the far side of those mountains - are geographically connected to the other Stony Dornishmen, as they are listed with the Lords of Kinsgrave, Wyl, Skyreach etc and fought against (I can't actually tell precisely if they were bannermen to Yronwood or allies) the Martells as they united Dorne.

There are ways through the mountains.
 

Yes, most of the coast of Dorne is like that. And not at all relevant to our discussion.

Right. From where he is, which is a completely different place and requires completely different travel and hardships. Plus, he's Fat Sam, has no horses, no supplies, no comrades.

Agreed. And from that context its not unlikely that she's exaggerating the tasks required, though frankly the first two need no exaggeration.

Bullshit. He won't reach Oldtown because a) he's Sam, b) he's got to cross the desert, and he's Sam, c) he has no horses, no skills, no supplies, has to cross the desert and he's Sam. Crossing the mountains and the Torrentine are not impossible tasks, they are just magnified tasks to demonstrate the futility of even trying. Sam swimming ashore and crossing the desert is already an impossible task.

Sigh. the very books themselves are extremely far from 100% accurate. You are using the wrong meaning of canon. And pointlessly mis-applying the meaning you are using

Totally agreed. Its utterly absurd to not take the World Book as generally accurate in terms of geography and the like.

Agreed. I couldn't find this one. You were right in parts of your description, and thanks for providing the quote.

Right. So its not navigable. But there are bridges. And therefore roads or trails.

And there are canyons and crevasses, as well as rapids and waterfalls. As you said. But no sheer cliff that must be passed with no route. And Starfall is not deep in a massive gorge, or impossible to Reach.

 

You started with some accurate basics that describe generally difficult terrain, and made up a whole bunch more to make it idealistically impossible for Ned to travel from inside the Princes Pass to Starfall overland. 
But the truth is that there is nothing impossible about it, not necessarily even anything particularly difficult about it for a well equipped party already in the Princes Pass, and clearly many other people do it as Blackmont especially (according to your false descriptions literally impossible to connect to anywhere else in Dorne), but also High Hermitage (ditto) and Starfall (only by sea along a coast with no good anchorage for hundreds of leagues) are regular participants in the political, social and military life of the Stony Dornish of the Marches.

 

There is no indication Ned ever saw the sands of Dorne, and no indication that it would be particularly difficult for him to move form the ToJ, located in the Princes Pass, to Starfall, through through Red Mountains and across the Torrentine.

The Blackmonts are considered a mountain clan (Stony Dornish), and according to the map of "The West" in "Lands", Blackmont is on the east bank of the Torrentine whereas High Hermitage is on the west bank and Starfall is on an island in the middle of the river. This does not automatically mean that the Blackmonts have easy access to Starfall. It just means they have their own route out of the Red Mountains. The text does not tell us how the Blackmonts reach the rest of Dorne or Westeros. For all we know they may travel north along the river before exiting onto the Dornish Marshes or maybe take the western fork north and exit near Horn Hill. Nobody knows!   

We do get some idea of how important mountain passes are by reading about the Eyrie. There is a high road/pass and a low road/pass leading through the Mountains of the Moon. The low road in the foothills is considered the most dangerous, because of the savage and primitive mountain clans. The passes and heights of the Red Mountains are home to the Stony Dornish. These mountain lords have a history as savage as that of the mountain clans of the Vale. The high road through the Mountains of the Moon is an eastern pass that begins near the Inn of the Crossroads in the Riverlands and funnels travelers through the Bloody Gate and into the Vale of Arryn. No such pass exists westward from the Prince's Pass to Starfall - at least not one described in any of the books. If you know of any such passages or text that describe these roads or trails, you are welcome to share!

[corbon]

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The Blackmonts are considered a mountain clan (Stony Dornish), and according to the map of "The West" in "Lands", Blackmont is on the east bank of the Torrentine whereas High Hermitage is on the west bank 

There are bridges across the Torrentine, which means roads and/or trails in its vicinity.

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

and Starfall is on an island in the middle of the river.

On an island at the mouth of the river, on the shores of the sea.
Not really relevant anyway. Starfall is clearly get-at-able, whether you come be sea or by land. To paraphrase GRRM, they have boats you know...

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This does not automatically mean that the Blackmonts have easy access to Starfall.

Its you who are positing that there is no access. There is no such indication.

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

It just means they have their own route out of the Red Mountains.

Exactly.

But their route must go east at some stage, before it reaches the Reach side of things. Otherwie they'd not be involved with eth Stony Dornish

And there is no indication, nor reason, that they are cut off from High Hermitage or Starfall.

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The text does not tell us how the Blackmonts reach the rest of Dorne or Westeros. For all we know they may travel north along the river before exiting onto the Dornish Marshes or maybe take the western fork north and exit near Horn Hill. Nobody knows!   

Clearly they do not exit only at Horn Hill. If that was the case they'd be utterly cut off from the other Stony Dornish and have no reason to be associated with them at all.

More to the point, you are right, nobody knows exactly, though anyone with a brain can figure some things. You don't know, but you are still making hard claims.

But you are the one saying 'there's no passage'. All I'm doing is showing that there is no evidence to support your position and some evidence against it. You've shown what you used as evidence but it does not support your claims.

38 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

We do get some idea of how important mountain passes are by reading about the Eyrie. There is a high road/pass and a low road/pass leading through the Mountains of the Moon. The low road in the foothills is considered the most dangerous, because of the savage and primitive mountain clans. The passes and heights of the Red Mountains are home to the Stony Dornish. These mountain lords have a history as savage as that of the mountain clans of the Vale. The high road through the Mountains of the Moon is an eastern pass that begins near the Inn of the Crossroads in the Riverlands and funnels travelers through the Bloody Gate and into the Vale of Arryn. No such pass exists westward from the Prince's Pass to Starfall - at least not one described in any of the books. If you know of any such passages or text that describe these roads or trails, you are welcome to share!

I don't need to. You are using absence of evidence as evidence of absence.
I don't need to prove a named pass. All I need to do is show that your claims are fake, which we both have done with the quotes.

Further, there is indirect evidence against you, which you conveniently ignore, and claim "we don't know'. I have already provided the additional evidence that points towards, without explicitly proving, un-named passes, roads or trails between various locations in the Red Mountains, by the social, political and military connections between the people on either side of that particular spine.

 

The entire point is that there is no indication that it would be impossible, or even particularly difficult, for a small party to travel between the Princes Pass and the close vicinity of Starfall without passing through the Dornish desert or taking a long sea voyage.