Heresy 227 and the Great Turtle

[Melifeather]

Whenever there is discussion about the Wall coming down, I think of how much water that might be and associate it with all the warnings about what would happen if all the ice in Greenland melted. Scientists estimate the seas would rise 20 feet. 8% of the world's ice is on Greenland. It's enough to inundate much of Manhattan, flood the National Mall of Washington DC, and Miami would be underwater. If all the ice in the world should melt, seas would rise 216 feet, and the state of Florida would be entirely underwater. Much and more has been said about the hammer of waters, and if that water was gathered up and frozen into the Wall, then there is potentially enough water to flood much of Westeros. If it melts, that is.

[Black Crow]

And once more with feeling...

Blood built it

Blood stopped the building of it

And Blood will bring it down, Black will be its fall

                                                            Jennet Clouston

[alienarea]

You probably know by now I have a thing for obscure songs. These lyrics are by Mike Watt for fIREHOSE (how they spelled themselves) and the song is 

"For the Singer of R.E.M."

It applies to GRRM and Heresy as well

 

Here's a version of tradition you can put in your drawer
In the desk where next to your chair's the handle to your door
Dismantle the door handle, put the parts into your desk drawer
Say some words then make a sign, now open up the drawer:
The drawer can't tell you more
Than to deal with the door

Now you object to objects actually meaning more
Than some pathetic, lame aesthetic stolling rone is famous for
Push the drawer closed, grab a firehose, point it at the door
Get it all wet, remember, forget what rock & roll is for
The drawer can't tell you more
Than to deal with the door

Now you're fishing for a mission way beyond the door
First you dream, next you're scheming, searching through your drawer
For an oar for your trip bound for yet uncharted shores
Over-reaching, find me spieling, cataloging doors
The door's a symbol for
These objects in your drawer

 

[corbon]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Whenever there is discussion about the Wall coming down, I think of how much water that might be and associate it with all the warnings about what would happen if all the ice in Greenland melted. Scientists estimate the seas would rise 20 feet. 8% of the world's ice is on Greenland. It's enough to inundate much of Manhattan, flood the National Mall of Washington DC, and Miami would be underwater. If all the ice in the world should melt, seas would rise 216 feet, and the state of Florida would be entirely underwater. Much and more has been said about the hammer of waters, and if that water was gathered up and frozen into the Wall, then there is potentially enough water to flood much of Westeros. If it melts, that is.

Why is Greenland called Greenland?

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

Why is Greenland called Greenland?

I don’t know if it’s true, but I seem to recall that the choice was meant to steer immigration away from Iceland, which has numerous hot springs and geysers. I blame Floki. 

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Whenever there is discussion about the Wall coming down, I think of how much water that might be and associate it with all the warnings about what would happen if all the ice in Greenland melted. Scientists estimate the seas would rise 20 feet. 8% of the world's ice is on Greenland. It's enough to inundate much of Manhattan, flood the National Mall of Washington DC, and Miami would be underwater. If all the ice in the world should melt, seas would rise 216 feet, and the state of Florida would be entirely underwater. Much and more has been said about the hammer of waters, and if that water was gathered up and frozen into the Wall, then there is potentially enough water to flood much of Westeros. If it melts, that is.

So that's why somebody recently wanted to buy Greenland and threw a hissy fit when he was told it wasn't for sale

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So that's why somebody recently wanted to buy Greenland and threw a hissy fit when he was told it wasn't for sale

He claims climate change is a hoax, but maybe he is trying to plan ahead. We'll need a place to put displaced senior citizens!

[LynnS]

 

[alienarea]

What's up, heretics?

[Melifeather]

I was watching a movie about Mary Queen of Scots, and they portrayed her second husband, Henry Stuart (Lord Darnley) as gay. Mary's personal secretary was David Rizzio, and the movie hinted that Lord Darnley and Rizzio were lovers. They showed Mary having to be really aggressive with Henry to get him to consummate their marriage, and then he took her from behind - implying he had to pretend to sodomize her in order to complete the deed. They were successful in creating an heir, James, whom Mary ends up naming after her brother. While Mary is heavily pregnant, Rizzio is murdered. He's stabbed multiple times by a group of nobles using Lord Darnley's knife. Somehow this was to qualm rumors that Rizzio was actually baby James's father, since Rizzio was so close to Mary. Later on Mary's own brother James took her infant son into custody, and the Earl of Bothwell raped her and forced her to marry him. The plan was to remove her from the throne and place her one year old son upon it, then rule in his place as regents.

The movie may have gotten some of the details wrong, but I can see some hints of these historical events in ASOIAF. Margaery seems to be a Mary Queen of Scots-like figure. Renly is her Lord Darnley, Loris her David Rizzio, while Tommen echoes Mary's infant son James. The fighting over Tommen's regency and the battle between the Faith Militant and Cersei is an echo of the fight between the Protestants and the Catholics over Scotland.

[alienarea]

The biggest mystery of ASoIaF is that there isn't any progress in technology or society for hundreds (thousands?) of years. 

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

The biggest mystery of ASoIaF is that there isn't any progress in technology or society for hundreds (thousands?) of years. 

I have a recollection of mention being made of "heater" type shields being used in the past, which would be consistent with the armor worn by Bill the Conqueror's boys as distinct from the high mediaeval gothic stuff worn at "present", but otherwise yes. While the current technology in Westeros is internally consistent with our 15th century - apart from the lack of gunpowder - it seems curiously frozen. The general level of development is consistent with the 1400s, but not with a civilisation which supposedly stretches back over 10,000 years.

[corbon]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I have a recollection of mention being made of "heater" type shields being used in the past, which would be consistent with the armor worn by Bill the Conqueror's boys as distinct from the high mediaeval gothic stuff worn at "present", but otherwise yes. While the current technology in Westeros is internally consistent with our 15th century - apart from the lack of gunpowder - it seems curiously frozen. The general level of development is consistent with the 1400s, but not with a civilisation which supposedly stretches back over 10,000 years.

The Normans in the 11th century used Kite shields - long thin teardrops that partially cover a riders leg. The Heater shield is a shorter, later version, usually with a flatish top edge - what you'd see in the 13th century, on the old Ivanhoe movie for example.

It is apparent that there has been very slow technological development, from bronze to iron to steel and Valyrian steel and similarly with armour and shields.
Its just waaay slower than in our world.

There are various justfications offered for that, but the only one that matters IMO is that thats what Martin likes.

 

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its just waaay slower than in our world.

There are various justfications offered for that, but the only one that matters IMO is that thats what Martin likes.

 

Agreed, which is why in general I try to avoid complicated arguments and deep theories. Most of what happens because GRRM needs/wants it to happen, even if it contradicts what else he has written. Hence his reluctance to codify the "rules" of magic and explain everything.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Agreed, which is why in general I try to avoid complicated arguments and deep theories. Most of what happens because GRRM needs/wants it to happen, even if it contradicts what else he has written. Hence his reluctance to codify the "rules" of magic and explain everything.

I think its part of his 'too big to be true' (thats my desciption of it, certainly not his) sort of philosophy. I recall reading how he started ASoIaF after years writing TV scripts with limited budgets and restricted capabilities and so everything about ASoIaF is 'bigger' as a kind of release from those constraints.
IMO this includes "Time" (eg 8000 years of recorded history supposedly, and knowledge of prehistory before that), which leads to necessarily slower technological changes.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

I think its part of his 'too big to be true' (thats my desciption of it, certainly not his) sort of philosophy. I recall reading how he started ASoIaF after years writing TV scripts with limited budgets and restricted capabilities and so everything about ASoIaF is 'bigger' as a kind of release from those constraints.
IMO this includes "Time" (eg 8000 years of recorded history supposedly, and knowledge of prehistory before that), which leads to necessarily slower technological changes.

Yeah. I think that in terms of framework GRRM's world is easily comparable with out own. Westeros is the Island of Britain and its story is consistent with Celtic history/tradition, Aegon the Conqueror is William the Norman and we're now in the Wars of the Roses. Moving further east Valyria is Rome and so on. Its all internally consistent except that thousands of years have been tacked on to the beginning. 

Is this entirely down to GRRM's visions of grandeur - or is the real timeline much shorter?

[Melifeather]

Our own world has had civilizations going back 10,000 years and more - they rise and fall. Setting aside for the moment that there does seem to be newer evidence of even more ancient civilizations having technologies that were forgotten and "reinvented" thousands of years later...the most generally accepted timeline of human technological advances has boats and ships being used at least 10,000 years BCE ago, but the wheel isn't acknowledged as being invented until 3500 years BCE ago. Hand-made bricks were made 6000-7000 years BCE ago, and iron used for the first time was 4000 years BCE ago, but only for decorative uses. The Bronze Age was 3000 years BCE ago and the Iron Age 1000 years BCE ago. B.C.E. = Before Common Era is the same as B.C. = Before Christ, but the dates are exactly the same, so add 2019 onto all of the above technological advances, for example the Iron Age was 3019 years ago. In Westeros they use Aegon the Conqueror for their dates. Think of the technological advances since the 1900's. It's so dramatic compared to the previous 10,000 years. Westeros is 300 years into their Middle Ages. Have they invented windmills yet? They're probably 400-1400 years away from inventing gunpowder and cannons/rockets, and 1500  years away from inventing muskets.

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Our own world has had civilizations going back 10,000 years and more - they rise and fall. Setting aside for the moment that there does seem to be newer evidence of even more ancient civilizations having technologies that were forgotten and "reinvented" thousands of years later...the most generally accepted timeline of human technological advances has boats and ships being used at least 10,000 years BCE ago, but the wheel isn't acknowledged as being invented until 3500 years BCE ago. Hand-made bricks were made 6000-7000 years BCE ago, and iron used for the first time was 4000 years BCE ago, but only for decorative uses. The Bronze Age was 3000 years BCE ago and the Iron Age 1000 years BCE ago. B.C.E. = Before Common Era is the same as B.C. = Before Christ, but the dates are exactly the same, so add 2019 onto all of the above technological advances, for example the Iron Age was 3019 years ago. In Westeros they use Aegon the Conqueror for their dates. Think of the technological advances since the 1900's. It's so dramatic compared to the previous 10,000 years. Westeros is 300 years into their Middle Ages. Have they invented windmills yet? They're probably 400-1400 years away from inventing gunpowder and cannons/rockets, and 1500  years away from inventing muskets.

Agreed. With the exception that I don't think 'recorded history' in our middle ages extended back as far as it does now. Maybe 2500 years max, with perhaps only limited biblical knowledge of civilisations or historic stories older than 1000BCE.
Mind you, that might be eurocentric, with europe itself being somewhat less than civilised more than 2000 years before the middle ages. I'm not sure how much 'historic knowledge' was available in Eastern and Asian cultures 700 years ago.

I think if you forwarded Westeros into 'modern' times there are enough hints of a vast pre-history that goes back 10-20,000 years, or more, that Westerosi with modern archaelogical tools and methods could be revealing. Multiple times more I think than our world. At least as far as we know.

[Melifeather]

50 minutes ago, corbon said:

Agreed. With the exception that I don't think 'recorded history' in our middle ages extended back as far as it does now. Maybe 2500 years max, with perhaps only limited biblical knowledge of civilisations or historic stories older than 1000BCE.
Mind you, that might be eurocentric, with europe itself being somewhat less than civilised more than 2000 years before the middle ages. I'm not sure how much 'historic knowledge' was available in Eastern and Asian cultures 700 years ago.

I think if you forwarded Westeros into 'modern' times there are enough hints of a vast pre-history that goes back 10-20,000 years, or more, that Westerosi with modern archaelogical tools and methods could be revealing. Multiple times more I think than our world. At least as far as we know.

We have a lot more information that what is provided in the Bible! There are artifacts that archeologists have carbon dated. The Egyptians kept a lot of historical records, much more than what's in the Bible, and then of course archeologists have found other ancient "books" if you can call papyrus and stone etchings books. Archeologists have unearthed ancient cities like Pompeii as well as some previously unknown cities. Then there's the pyramid deep under the water near Spain that some people posit might be from Atlantis. Then again there's a newer theory that Atlantis disappeared under a tsunami. I think National Geographic did a show that highlighted this theory. There might even be evidence that the tsunami was caused by tectonic plates shifting. With regards to the Middle Ages, the Vikings kept records as well as English and Franks - so did the Moors.

[corbon]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

We have a lot more information that what is provided in the Bible! There are artifacts that archeologists have carbon dated. The Egyptians kept a lot of historical records, much more than what's in the Bible, and then of course archeologists have found other ancient "books" if you can call papyrus and stone etchings books. Archeologists have unearthed ancient cities like Pompeii as well as some previously unknown cities. Then there's the pyramid deep under the water near Spain that some people posit might be from Atlantis. Then again there's a newer theory that Atlantis disappeared under a tsunami. I think National Geographic did a show that highlighted this theory. There might even be evidence that the tsunami was caused by tectonic plates shifting. With regards to the Middle Ages, the Vikings kept records as well as English and Franks - so did the Moors.

Yes, but nearly all that information wasn't available in our middle ages.

Which means we wouldn't expect the locally equivalent information it to be available to Westerosi, with corresponding technology levels.

 

Looking at it the other way around, since the first way seems to have not been clear, At a time on our earth corresponding to ASoIaF 'current" time (roughly 14-15th century AD, give or take), I think Middle Ages Europeans had very few civilisational records that went back beyond 1000BCE, if that. The Chinese may have had more, but I'm not sure (they certainly had a longer record of civilisation, but I'm not sure how much of our current knowledge of their older civilisations is more recently acquired and how much back-knowledge existed 600+ years ago - some for sure, but more than 2500 years? Not at all confident). The Middle East or Indian civilisations too may have had more civilisational records go back beyond 1000BCE, 600 years ago, than Europe did, but I'm not confident of that either. 

The point being:
If our middle ages european 'civilisational records' went back about 2500 years, maybe, then the 'bigger, broader, grander' Martinian scope putting ASoIaF 'Civilisational records' at about 6000-8000 years, with significant hints of much longer older history, seems about right.