LordSeaSnake Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 In Westeros, there are quite a few island lords that obviously exert some influence and power. House Tarth of Tarth in the stormlands, House Farman of Fair Isle in the westerlands, and namely House Velaryon of Driftmark and House Redwyne of the Arbor. And of course the nobility of the Iron Islands. As well as House Estermont of Estermont and House Mormont of Bear Island to a lesser degree. My question is, how realistic is it for these lords to be so powerful despite limited lands and resources. Are there any examples in a real-world setting of influential noblemen ruling over islands in the Middle Ages? House Velaryon was one of the most powerful houses, in part due to their influence at court. But they were independently wealthy and maintained a vast fleet, despite ruling over only a moderately small island. House Redwyne is in a similar situation, though their island appears to be more rich. The Tarths and Farmans are more middle-tier lords, but are still considered among the most powerful vassals to their liege. Bear Island and Estermont are described as poorer islands, but even those houses maintain some influence. The Iron Islands are also barren, but the Harlaws, Goodbrothers, and Greyjoys do not seem to be particularly poor. In the Middle Ages, did the lords of islands also maintain lands on the mainland? Did noble families even maintain fleets as the Velaryons, Greyjoys, and Redwynes do? Would the ruler of an island even be able to maintain any high-level of influence or wealth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 These islands are as big as the holdings of most mainlander Lords in Westeros. So it’s not strange that these houses can be as wealthy and powerful as the mainland. They might look small on a map. But islands such as Tarth are the size of like Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 King of England comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGuv19 Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 House Velaryon were powerful, but only because of towns like Hull and Spicetown, and the wealth the Sea Snake Corlys Velaryon brought from the east, not because of land or resources on Driftmark. They are just well situated in the narrow sea and wielded much influence at Targaryen court. If we look at the Velaryons now, forced to survive without the Targaryens propping them up and having lost a war, they are merely ‘codfish lords’ to people like Renly, and even their liege, Stannis, regularly bemoans how little men or resources the lords of the narrow sea contribute. So House Velaryon alone really isn’t really super powerful. House Redwyne have a near monopoly on the wine market, and have a massive fleet which can be used for trade in peacetime, so it makes sense for them to be rich. House Estermont and House Mormont are poor compared to practically any other house of note. Much of the Estermonts’ influence I think derives from their blood ties to Robert and his brothers, and the Mormonts are among the least influential of Winterfell’s bannermen. In the Middle Ages, did the lords of islands also maintain lands on the mainland? Would the ruler of an island even be able to maintain any high-level of influence or wealth? See the King of England, Richard the Lionheart and his lands in France as of 1190 (called the Angevin Empire). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 On 9/20/2019 at 10:15 PM, LordSeaSnake said: My question is, how realistic is it for these lords to be so powerful despite limited lands and resources. I don't think it is realistic. I think it's all fiction. My theory is that GRRM uses islands as places where god-like characters reside. We will never meet Brienne's father, for instance. I think we met Jeor Mormont only because he had stepped down and made his sister the head of House Mormont. While she has a presence in the books, she is mostly a background figure who has a few important lines (such as calling Robb Stark the King of Winter when everyone else is calling him the King in the North). The path to the Quiet Isle is a secret and cannot be found except with an experienced guide. Brienne is allowed to travel to this Isle (along with Ser Hyle and Pod) to meet the mysterious Elder Brother, but she returns to mortal life after, basically, making a confession and sleeping in a special beehive. What was the purpose of her island interlude? I suspect it has to do with immortality and/or rebirth. We meet Jalabhar Xho, the exiled prince from the Summer Islands. He may be a god-like character come among the people of Westeros, but they don't seem to pay attention to him. I believe the Summer Islands are a symbolic Winterfell. I thought Jalabhar Xho might represent Ned Stark, but maybe the "Summer" name gives him a stronger parallel to Bran. Missandei comes from Naath. I believe she is a parallel to Dany - a way for Dany to talk to herself while the reader listens in. Missandei's brother, who had a special connection to the island's killer butterflies, dies before we can meet him. Naath may represent death. We have met Paxter Redwyne, but his sons were sketchy figures who were hostages ( = pawns). There seems to be an association with sieges, ships and wine. Not sure yet what the Redwyne connection represents in the larger symbolic scheme. Wine is obviously a regularly-occurring symbol throughout the series. But islands are not the only places GRRM uses for these god-like characters, to keep them out of the mainstream of Westeros. I doubt we will ever meet Howland Reed. I think Jon Arryn, with his isolated mountain-top castle, was also a god-like character. Dorne may also represent a world apart and Prince Doran may be one of these powerful beings who exists on a different plane. I suspect that Jason and Denys Mallister may both be in this category - even though we see them, they are aloof and powerful and they control castles that are mysterious. The Iron Isles are fascinating, if the theory about god-like characters is true. The natives of the islands would probably all be god-like, with thralls and some others brought in to serve them. Theon is taken from the islands but he is welcomed back and re-baptized with seawater by his uncle who, I suspect, made Theon the actual heir of Balon with the symbolic drowning/baptism. So Theon may be a god-like character. Certainly would add a layer of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingin Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 On 9/21/2019 at 4:15 AM, LordSeaSnake said: My question is, how realistic is it for these lords to be so powerful despite limited lands and resources. Are there any examples in a real-world setting of influential noblemen ruling over islands in the Middle Ages? Maybe Sardinian Judicates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 Sicily was fairly powerful in its own right in the middle ages but it was often held in conjunction with other territory (e.g. Calabria/Apulia or HRE with territory in northern italy and obviously the Germany/Austria/Poland area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted September 30, 2019 Share Posted September 30, 2019 The Iron Islands are reminiscent of the Kingdom of the Isles - in as much as they were dependent on raiding, later trade. An island provides security but also isolation, a double edged sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 GRRM made everything too huge, that's why these islands can be rich and influential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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