The Tyrion of Fevre Dream (spoiler)

[The Fattest Leech]

On 9/30/2019 at 7:46 AM, Platypus Rex said:

What greater cause?  Joshua York is a racial supremacist, who thinks his race loyalty justifies mass murder.  Abner Marsh is a selfish man who makes a deal with this devil, because fancy riverboats are more important to him than the human lives that must be sacrificed.

In the climax, Joshua York kidnaps 30 people, predictably leading to their deaths.  This is the legal and moral equivalent of mass murder.  

And this is just the icing on the cake.   Joshua York's associates are regularly committing murder.  Joshua York could prevent all this at any time.  All he need do is expose himself and all his murdering associates to the authorities.  But no.  Joshua York has a better idea, and it involves (eventually) seizing absolute power for himself and ruling his co-racialists in a way that will somehow prevent them from ever preying upon humans.  Until then, the end justifies the means, and all human lives are expendable.

Do you mean Damon Julian? Josh is looking for unity between the sides. All of chapter 13 tells us how Josh is making his green elixir drink just so there can be coexistence. Fighting the red thirst, which is analogous to the desire for the bloody iron throne. Josh is rejecting this idea of superiority whereas Damon is the one obsessed with the red thirst (iron throne).  Damon is the one with a racial majority issue, the one that is a hypocrite that mocks humans for keeping slaves yet wants to keep humans as his (the vampires) "cattle' because they are somehow superior.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 9/29/2019 at 11:01 PM, The Coonster said:

Horrible.  How so?  Abner is a businessman with grandiose dreams but lacked capital.  Joshua had the capital but lacked the knowledge to run the business.  They were both dreaming big but Joshua's could change the world.  All Abner wanted was glory in the beginning but he saw a greater cause. 

Correct. And during the heat of it all, Abner claims he wants to take what is his with "fire and blood", and then asks for a blade (sword, knife, etc). It is later, through first hand experience, that Abner realizes what he thought he wanted wasn't worth it. The ship Eclipse that runs in the background of this story is the reflection of the main, personal, struggles the protagonists face.

Clarifying, this next part is "in general", not to you directly Coonster...

The term fire and blood was not invented by GRRM for ASOIAF, and we know what it means when he has a character use this phrase, and all if it points to what can be summed up as absolutely no frickin' good for anyone involved, from the smallfolk up to the elite. Same with the red thirst, which is the desire to rule from the iron throne... Ozymandias. GRRM has talked about this by name before = no frickin' good.

And I find it interesting those in in this thread are completely missing that Sour Billy Tipton is literally a reekified human working for a fire "god", and just like Janos Slynt, he is a racists bigot that also has a (false) superiority complex. Sour Billy is the second "Reek" that existed in this story that Damon made. This is yet another heaping dallop of author insight that Janos Slynt was a treacherous (secondary) villain type, that's it.

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Do you mean Damon Julian? Josh is looking for unity between the sides. All of chapter 13 tells us how Josh is making his green elixir drink just so there can be coexistence. Fighting the red thirst, which is analogous to the desire for the bloody iron throne. Josh is rejecting this idea of superiority whereas Damon is the one obsessed with the red thirst (iron throne).  Damon is the one with a racial majority issue, the one that is a hypocrite that mocks humans for keeping slaves yet wants to keep humans as his (the vampires) "cattle' because they are somehow superior.

My takeaway wasn't that York was looking to necessarily looking to create unity between the two races.  My takeaway was that York believed that the red thirst effectively enslaved his people, preventing them from reaching their full potential.  I think he believed that humans had advanced further than his species because they weren't beholden to the red thirst.

[Lluewhyn]

Never read Fevre Dream, but I read Dying of the Light. There's a fairly clear proto-Littlefinger in the story named Arkin Ruark, who is manipulating several groups against each other so he can try to get the woman he's in love with. The main protagonist Dirk t'Larien doesn't really have an ASOIAF equivalent, but he reminds me of Pate (not the Pig Boy), mostly because he's so pathetic. Maybe a much less violent  Theon from ACOK who drives the narrative by screwing things up for those who were nice to him.

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Do you mean Damon Julian?

No.  I'm referring to Joshua York.    Damon Julian is a cartoon villain, whereas Joshua York is an ordinary villain.  But, nonetheless, everything I said about Joshua York is accurate.  

[The Fattest Leech]

55 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

My takeaway wasn't that York was looking to necessarily looking to create unity between the two races.  My takeaway was that York believed that the red thirst effectively enslaved his people, preventing them from reaching their full potential.  I think he believed that humans had advanced further than his species because they weren't beholden to the red thirst.

This is part of it yes, but he wanted to undo or dispel the myths that all vampires are evvulll. He wanted to coexist with humans, by just have vampires drink the drink and hideaway. That is how he wanted to bring about peace. Some of the story vampires wanted to find the hidden lands of their origin and hide away, but Josh basically said that was foolish because the humans can add beauty in ways the vampires can’t. They need to work together type of thing. I’ll find the quotes in a little bit to post here, but can’t at the moment. 

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

No.  I'm referring to Joshua York.    Damon Julian is a cartoon villain, whereas Joshua York is an ordinary villain.  But, nonetheless, everything I said about Joshua York is accurate.  

No. Not quite, unless I’m totes forgetting something in that case you’d better your argument with text. 

[The Fattest Leech]

52 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

Never read Fevre Dream, but I read Dying of the Light. There's a fairly clear proto-Littlefinger in the story named Arkin Ruark, who is manipulating several groups against each other so he can try to get the woman he's in love with. The main protagonist Dirk t'Larien doesn't really have an ASOIAF equivalent, but he reminds me of Pate (not the Pig Boy), mostly because he's so pathetic. Maybe a much less violent  Theon from ACOK who drives the narrative by screwing things up for those who were nice to him.

Agree to this. I’d say that Dirk is closest to Eddard, innocent to a fault. 

[Platypus Rex]

25 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No. Not quite, unless I’m totes forgetting something in that case you’d better your argument with text. 

Actually, the things I said are true regardless of whether I back it up with quotes.  I don't owe you my time. 

Is there something specific I said that you are challenging?  Maybe that will narrow it down.  But if the problem is just that you don't remember the story, then maybe you're due for a re-reread.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My takeaway wasn't that York was looking to necessarily looking to create unity between the two races.  My takeaway was that York believed that the red thirst effectively enslaved his people, preventing them from reaching their full potential.  I think he believed that humans had advanced further than his species because they weren't beholden to the red thirst.

I only have time for a few quotes at the moment, finishing work and have a show to attend soon, but here are a few...

• “Abner,” York continued, “I know what the Fevre Dream means to you. I want you to know that she means much to me, as well. This day is the start of a grand new life for me. You and I, together, we made her what she is, and we shall go on to make her a legend. I have always admired beauty, Abner, but this is the first time in a long life that I have created it, or helped in its creation. It is a good feeling, to bring something new and fine into the world. Particularly for me. And I have you to thank for it.” He lifted his goblet. “Let us drink for the Fevre Dream and all she represents, my friend—beauty, freedom, hope. To our boat and a better world!”

• [Joshua introducing his green drink to the other vampires in order to convince them they can coexist (not kill, at minimum) humans]

  “We are together at last,” Joshua said, in a quiet voice, “and this is a new beginning for us, for the people of the night. Those who live by day might call it a new dawning.” He smiled. “For us, a new sunset might be a more appropriate metaphor. Listen, all of you. Let me tell you of my plans.” Then Joshua rose, and began to speak in earnest.

  [and then later regarding the drink...]

  Cynthia has been using my drink for years. She became … sexually receptive … even without the blood, the fever. I responded. It was powerful, Abner. As strong as the thirst, but different, cleaner. A thirst for life instead of death. She will die when her time comes, unless your people can help. Julian would never permit that. And there is the child to think of. I do not want it corrupted, enslaved by Damon Julian. I want this birth to be a new beginning for my race. I had to take action.”

  A goddamned vampire baby, Abner Marsh thought. He was going to go in and face Damon Julian for a child that might grow up to be just like Julian was. But maybe not. Maybe it’d grow into Joshua instead. “If you want to do somethin’,” Marsh said, “then why the hell ain’t we in there, instead of yapping out here?” He jerked his shotgun in the direction of the huge ruined steamer.

And then there is the homage that is made to Abner in the end-end (gets straight to my gullet every darn time). This homage is paid because there is more than one way that the humans and vampires united, and that was to take down Damon Julian, and it could only happen when they worked together (and actually human and vampire both drank the green drink at one point when needed). Kinda goes back to what you were (rightly) saying about needing to slake the red thirst, but also advancement only comes when two sides work together somehow.

• Some of the graves have large monuments. One has a statue on top of it, of a tall man dressed like a steamer pilot, holding a portion of a wheel and gazing out into the distance. Several have colorful accounts of life and death on the river inscribed on their tombstones, telling how they died in a boiler explosion, or the war, or by drowning. But the visitors come to none of these. The grave they seek out is relatively plain. The stone has seen a hundred years of weathering, but it has held up well. The words chiseled into it are plainly readable: a name, some dates, and two lines of poetry

   

[Platypus Rex]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I only have time for a few quotes at the moment, finishing work and have a show to attend soon, but here are a few...

• “Abner,” York continued, “I know what the Fevre Dream means to you. I want you to know that she means much to me, as well. This day is the start of a grand new life for me. You and I, together, we made her what she is, and we shall go on to make her a legend. I have always admired beauty, Abner, but this is the first time in a long life that I have created it, or helped in its creation. It is a good feeling, to bring something new and fine into the world. Particularly for me. And I have you to thank for it.” He lifted his goblet. “Let us drink for the Fevre Dream and all she represents, my friend—beauty, freedom, hope. To our boat and a better world!”

• [Joshua introducing his green drink to the other vampires in order to convince them they can coexist (not kill, at minimum) humans]

  “We are together at last,” Joshua said, in a quiet voice, “and this is a new beginning for us, for the people of the night. Those who live by day might call it a new dawning.” He smiled. “For us, a new sunset might be a more appropriate metaphor. Listen, all of you. Let me tell you of my plans.” Then Joshua rose, and began to speak in earnest.

  [and then later regarding the drink...]

  Cynthia has been using my drink for years. She became … sexually receptive … even without the blood, the fever. I responded. It was powerful, Abner. As strong as the thirst, but different, cleaner. A thirst for life instead of death. She will die when her time comes, unless your people can help. Julian would never permit that. And there is the child to think of. I do not want it corrupted, enslaved by Damon Julian. I want this birth to be a new beginning for my race. I had to take action.”

  A goddamned vampire baby, Abner Marsh thought. He was going to go in and face Damon Julian for a child that might grow up to be just like Julian was. But maybe not. Maybe it’d grow into Joshua instead. “If you want to do somethin’,” Marsh said, “then why the hell ain’t we in there, instead of yapping out here?” He jerked his shotgun in the direction of the huge ruined steamer.

And then there is the homage that is made to Abner in the end-end (gets straight to my gullet every darn time). This homage is paid because there is more than one way that the humans and vampires united, and that was to take down Damon Julian, and it could only happen when they worked together (and actually human and vampire both drank the green drink at one point when needed). Kinda goes back to what you were (rightly) saying about needing to slake the red thirst, but also advancement only comes when two sides work together somehow.

• Some of the graves have large monuments. One has a statue on top of it, of a tall man dressed like a steamer pilot, holding a portion of a wheel and gazing out into the distance. Several have colorful accounts of life and death on the river inscribed on their tombstones, telling how they died in a boiler explosion, or the war, or by drowning. But the visitors come to none of these. The grave they seek out is relatively plain. The stone has seen a hundred years of weathering, but it has held up well. The words chiseled into it are plainly readable: a name, some dates, and two lines of poetry

   

What is this?  I thought you were disagreeing with something I said.  What did I say that you disagree with?

All you are proving is that Joshua York has a high opinion of himself and his "deams", and Abner Marsh has a high opinion of himself and his dreams.  GRRM may have a high opinion of them as well.  Maybe he would do the same in their place.  Maybe you would as well. 

But the cold hard fact is that Joshua York is a murderer, who regards human lives as expendable to his "dreams", and Abner Marsh is not much better.   York is not a "cartoon villain", like Damon Julian.  Just a typical end-justifies-the-means villain.

Every communist mass murderer also has his dreams of Utopia.

[Pontius Pilate]

On 9/22/2019 at 10:39 PM, Allardyce said:

George R R Martin talks about vampires here.

Who is hero is a matter of perspective.  This as well applies to the question of who is good and who are evil.  At least in the opinion of George.  The Abner character is carried to Game of Thrones within Jorah, Tyrion, Barristan, and Davos.  Mostly Tyrion though.  Abner is surrounded by evil.  Evil in the form of slavery.  He's a practical man but he recognizes slavery as very wrong.  But he's one man and knows his own limitations.  Toby is an example of Abner doing the right thing within his limited means.  He did right by Toby and set him free.  I don't fault Abner Marsh for wanting to build the fastest, grandest boat.  It's a point of pride but more than that it is good for business.  He failed his first rescue attempt and got people killed.  The plan with the shotgun also failed.  The third time succeeds.  It was about the boat at first.  His boat.  But to me, Abner Marsh came to realize there's something bigger than boats and business at stake.  He saw his chance to help the vampire people break the chains of the blood thirst.  For you see, the vampire people are also slaves to the hunger.  Marsh is an abolitionists in this way.  

The devaluation of life in the south compare to the slave trade in Ghis.  The vampires feed on the human livestock but are they any worse than the whites who enslaved the darker skinned people.  Marsh, an ordinary man, got himself mixed up in something really big.  The Fevre Dream and the business are just the settings.  The problem the protagonists have to overcome are the same.  How to break the chains that bind people.  Joshua's potion could be the key to unlock that chain for the vampire folk.  Powerful he may be but he can't do this alone.  He needs Abner.  Dany is very powerful but she can't stop slavery all on her own.  She needs loyal people like Barristan, Jorah, and Daario.  The problem to be solved is smaller and not as complicated when compared to the problem of slavery in game of thrones.  We might see Dany shift the Dothraki society from raiding and slaving.  Asha would like to do the same for the Ironborn away from piracy.  Slavery is the shackle that bind the people in both of the story lines.  You just know the world will be a little bit better if the two protagonists, Daenerys and Joshua, succeed in what they want to do. 

The analogue to Billy Tipton is coming in Winds.  It is not a fact but simply a prediction on my part.  There are people who serve the icy darkness and they will be revealed.  Euron is one.  The ancestors of the Starks probably are as well.  The warlocks of Qarth might have sold their services in exchange for long lives.  Bloodraven would not surprise me.

 

 

Abner is a cynical man who spent his life absorbed in his mundane goals.  It took someone like Joshua York to make Abner see the bigger picture.  Tyrion and Jorah are cynical men.  Jorah at least has seen the big picture after spending time with Daenerys Targaryen and her lofty moral goals. 

[Platypus Rex]

4 minutes ago, Centurion Piso said:

Abner is a cynical man who spent his life absorbed in his mundane goals.  It took someone like Joshua York to make Abner see the bigger picture.  

Yes.  He realized that if he betrays his fellow humans, he can have a fancy riverboat.  

Then he loses the fancy riverboat.  Then he dies.  Hellfire waits, below.

[The Commentator]

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My takeaway wasn't that York was looking to necessarily looking to create unity between the two races.  My takeaway was that York believed that the red thirst effectively enslaved his people, preventing them from reaching their full potential.  I think he believed that humans had advanced further than his species because they weren't beholden to the red thirst.

It's complicated, the reasoning behind what York wanted to do.  Vampires, for all their power, are the powerful minority surrounded by the "cattle" majority.  For all of their power, the Vamps can't survive a war with the weaker humans who outnumbered them.  This point was also presented in ASOIAF, the enslaved outnumber the slavers.  The common folk outnumber the nobles.  

York has a moral angle for sure.  But he also wants the survival and coexistence of both species.  The Hunger enslaved his species like a vitally addictive substance might enslave a human.  I am sure he also has sympathy for the "cattle" and wants them treated better.  His motives are good.  

The allergy to daylight also kept the Vamps from making progress.  

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It's complicated, the reasoning behind what York wanted to do.  Vampires, for all their power, are the powerful minority surrounded by the "cattle" majority.  For all of their power, the Vamps can't survive a war with the weaker humans who outnumbered them.  This point was also presented in ASOIAF, the enslaved outnumber the slavers.  The common folk outnumber the nobles.  

York has a moral angle for sure.  But he also wants the survival and coexistence of both species.  The Hunger enslaved his species like a vitally addictive substance might enslave a human.  I am sure he also has sympathy for the "cattle" and wants them treated better.  His motives are good.  

The allergy to daylight also kept the Vamps from making progress.  

I agree with this.  It was complicated.  The impression that I got was that York’s primary concern was for the betterment of his people.  That included freeing them from the compulsion of the red thirst.  Now I do think he envisioned a world where his people could coexist with the humans.  I think he saw this as necessary for the advancement of his people.

One thing that I took from this book was that GRRM isn’t out to necessarily subvert tropes.  Instead he starts with a common genre trope (here the good vampires protecting the humans from the bad vampires) and then made things more complicated.

[Platypus Rex]

56 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

York has a moral angle for sure.  But he also wants the survival and coexistence of both species.  The Hunger enslaved his species like a vitally addictive substance might enslave a human.  I am sure he also has sympathy for the "cattle" and wants them treated better.  His motives are good.  

That of course depends on the standards you choose to apply.  York's standard's are analogous  to those of a human who proposes to treat the cattle in a humane manner, by seizing power and obliging all his fellow humans to practice vegetarianism and avoid animal cruelty; but who nonetheless holds human life as more valuable than animal life, and holds animal life to be expendable when human life is in danger.

In York's case, he clearly regards vampire life as more valuable than human life.  The lives of 20 vampires are worth more to him than the lives of many hundreds of humans, and there is probably, as far as we can see, no mathematical limit to the number of humans he is willing to sacrifice to preserve his small circle of kinfolk.

The analogy makes this motive understandable, from a race loyalty perspective.  

But this is hardly the only moral perspective York could have adopted.  He was raised to believe he was human, and to think he was in moral solidarity with fellow humans.  There was nothing about the realization that he belonged to a different species that forced him to change his moral perspective.  He chose to do that.

Had he NOT chosen race loyalty as his overarching moral duty, he could have chosen as follows:  When he realized he could not stop himself from killing, he could have prevented himself from ever killing again, by turning himself in to the authorities.  He could also have prevented further killings from his fellow mass murderers by exposing them to the authorities.

Instead he chose to commit countless murders while he developed his potion.  And even after he developed his potion, he chose to let his kin commit countless murders as he worked on his dream of dominating them and controlling them.  And of course, he always remains willing to murder any human whose continued life threatens to expose him and his kin.

But even less understandable than York's moral perspective is that of Abner Marsh.  If race-loyalty is justified, and Abner agrees with this, then why does he not recognize that York and his buddies are monsters who need to be wiped out for the sake of his fellow humans?  And even if we ignore the race-loyalty aspect of it, these monsters still need to be turned over to the authorities, and their lives forfeited, because they are all unrepentant murderers.  Including York.

I cannot bring myself to celebrate the beautiful friendship between York and Marsh.

[Finley McLeod]

On 9/22/2019 at 10:39 PM, Allardyce said:

George R R Martin talks about vampires here.

Who is hero is a matter of perspective.  This as well applies to the question of who is good and who are evil.  At least in the opinion of George.  The Abner character is carried to Game of Thrones within Jorah, Tyrion, Barristan, and Davos.  Mostly Tyrion though.  Abner is surrounded by evil.  Evil in the form of slavery.  He's a practical man but he recognizes slavery as very wrong.  But he's one man and knows his own limitations.  Toby is an example of Abner doing the right thing within his limited means.  He did right by Toby and set him free.  I don't fault Abner Marsh for wanting to build the fastest, grandest boat.  It's a point of pride but more than that it is good for business.  He failed his first rescue attempt and got people killed.  The plan with the shotgun also failed.  The third time succeeds.  It was about the boat at first.  His boat.  But to me, Abner Marsh came to realize there's something bigger than boats and business at stake.  He saw his chance to help the vampire people break the chains of the blood thirst.  For you see, the vampire people are also slaves to the hunger.  Marsh is an abolitionists in this way.  

The devaluation of life in the south compare to the slave trade in Ghis.  The vampires feed on the human livestock but are they any worse than the whites who enslaved the darker skinned people.  Marsh, an ordinary man, got himself mixed up in something really big.  The Fevre Dream and the business are just the settings.  The problem the protagonists have to overcome are the same.  How to break the chains that bind people.  Joshua's potion could be the key to unlock that chain for the vampire folk.  Powerful he may be but he can't do this alone.  He needs Abner.  Dany is very powerful but she can't stop slavery all on her own.  She needs loyal people like Barristan, Jorah, and Daario.  The problem to be solved is smaller and not as complicated when compared to the problem of slavery in game of thrones.  We might see Dany shift the Dothraki society from raiding and slaving.  Asha would like to do the same for the Ironborn away from piracy.  Slavery is the shackle that bind the people in both of the story lines.  You just know the world will be a little bit better if the two protagonists, Daenerys and Joshua, succeed in what they want to do. 

The analogue to Billy Tipton is coming in Winds.  It is not a fact but simply a prediction on my part.  There are people who serve the icy darkness and they will be revealed.  Euron is one.  The ancestors of the Starks probably are as well.  The warlocks of Qarth might have sold their services in exchange for long lives.  Bloodraven would not surprise me.

 

 

George Martin is not about to kiss the feet of heroes because it is relative.  A war hero to one nation is a war criminal to the enemy country.  The farmer and the butcher are heroes because they bring food to humans.  They are murderers from the eyes of the cows. 

Joshua and his followers have killed a lot of cattle and getting cleaned later is not going to wash away what they did in the eyes of the human.  But this is where forgiveness can have an important role.  Say the medication worked and they no longer feed on the people.  The person who can forgive might reasonably conclude that the vampires have repented and found a way to survive. 

[Platypus Rex]

On 10/11/2019 at 9:04 PM, Finley McLeod said:

Joshua and his followers have killed a lot of cattle and getting cleaned later is not going to wash away what they did in the eyes of the human. 

In assessing this problem, are we supposed to pretend we are not human?    It seems to me that you are not even asking that we be broad-minded enough to treat the vampires as if they were also human.  If we did, we would execute them as the mass-murderers they are; or at the very least permanently deprive them of their freedom.

Quote

But this is where forgiveness can have an important role.  Say the medication worked and they no longer feed on the people.  The person who can forgive might reasonably conclude that the vampires have repented and found a way to survive. 

How would one reasonably conclude that the vampires have repented?  The best of them is Joshua York.  And he's the man who effectively murdered 30 people, to cover up and conceal the murders of 100 people; and then sat by while hundreds more people were murdered.  He tells Marsh straight out that he is willing to murder humans to preserve vampire secrecy and he never changes his mind.

Suppose I murder my rich aunt for her money.  I'm caught 20 years later, after the inheritance has been spent.   I no longer have a motive to murder my rich aunt, and I have no more rich aunts to murder.  Would you call this "repentance"?

Joshua York is not repentant.  He thinks everything he ever did was justified.

[Quoth the raven,]

George chose to see vampires through the narrow lens of the humanists.  I have to differ because I choose to look at the wider angle.  Vampires who kill out of necessity because nature made them that way cannot be guilty of sin.  There is no sin without choice.  Humans kill livestock and some would doubt its necessity.  The vampires are, in truth, less sinful in comparison because they must consume blood. 

The world population can tolerate the existance of vampires as long as the selection of their food material is random.  It is acceptable to allow some of our population to become vampire meal.  It keeps things in balance.  Mother nature needs something to prey on man to keep the numbers from becoming too large.

[Platypus Rex]

12 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Vampires who kill out of necessity because nature made them that way cannot be guilty of sin.  There is no sin without choice.  Humans kill livestock and some would doubt its necessity.  The vampires are, in truth, less sinful in comparison because they must consume blood. 

That is pretty much what York says to Marsh.  And perhaps GRRM intends the reader to buy it.  But York has forgotten (and perhaps GRRM has forgotten as well) that York has already admitted to Marsh that he is prepared to kill, without compulsion, in order to preserve vampire secrecy.  York has already admitted he is every bit as evil as the average human killer, even if one excludes the killings that are done by compulsion.

He proves that he means this when he kidnaps the survivors of Damon Julian's massacre, to prevent them from revealing what they know.  Logically, this can only end in their deaths, and predictably it does.  Legally and morally, this is the mass murder of 30 people, and it was done without compulsion.

Also the "compulsion" excuse only applies to York's first killing, as an adolescent, when he did not know what he was.  After that, he could have ended his killings at any time by turning himself in.