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Centurion Piso

The Tyrion of Fevre Dream (spoiler)

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WARNING:  SPOILERS FOR FEVRE DREAM AHEAD.  

 

I have recently completed Fevre Dream.  I found it a good enough read.  The characters in this seminal work do have much in common with the main people in A Song of Ice and Fire.  

  1. Tyrion Lannister = Abner Marsh.  Desperate for something, he allies with a person of power to get it.  Tyrion wants Casterly Rock.  Abner wants to build the fastest boat on the river.  They're both too curious for their own good and not as smart as they think they are.  But deep down they are loyal once they give their loyalty to a partner.
  2. Daenerys Targaryen = Joshua Anton York.  Visionaries who want to make fundamental changes to their world.  Daenerys wants to abolish slavery and found the means to do it.  Joshua wants to change the vampire way of life and invented an elixir to control the thirst.  They both are meeting fierce resistance to this change.  
  3. Jorah Mormont = Jonathon Jeffers.  They are smart men who are willing to protect their friends.  I am hopeful Jorah will get a better ending.  
  4. Euron Greyjoy = Damon Julian.  The Harpy is also Damon because they want to hang on to an old way of life despite the suffering and misery it inflicts on others.  
  5. Bronn = Sour Billy.  Detestable people who will do anything for the promise of something great in return.  

Abner Marsh can also be compared to Davos.  They support somebody they don't completely agree with and are loyal in his own way.  Valerie is like Skahaz.  She is all for change and accepts the leadership of the visionary but the tug of the old lifestyle is too strong to resist.  Hairy Mike = Red Viper.  

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14 hours ago, Centurion Piso said:

WARNING:  SPOILERS FOR FEVRE DREAM AHEAD.  

 

I have recently completed Fevre Dream.  I found it a good enough read.  The characters in this seminal work do have much in common with the main people in A Song of Ice and Fire.  

  1. Tyrion Lannister = Abner Marsh.  Desperate for something, he allies with a person of power to get it.  Tyrion wants Casterly Rock.  Abner wants to build the fastest boat on the river.  They're both too curious for their own good and not as smart as they think they are.  But deep down they are loyal once they give their loyalty to a partner.
  2. Daenerys Targaryen = Joshua Anton York.  Visionaries who want to make fundamental changes to their world.  Daenerys wants to abolish slavery and found the means to do it.  Joshua wants to change the vampire way of life and invented an elixir to control the thirst.  They both are meeting fierce resistance to this change.  
  3. Jorah Mormont = Jonathon Jeffers.  They are smart men who are willing to protect their friends.  I am hopeful Jorah will get a better ending.  
  4. Euron Greyjoy = Damon Julian.  The Harpy is also Damon because they want to hang on to an old way of life despite the suffering and misery it inflicts on others.  
  5. Bronn = Sour Billy.  Detestable people who will do anything for the promise of something great in return.  

Abner Marsh can also be compared to Davos.  They support somebody they don't completely agree with and are loyal in his own way.  Valerie is like Skahaz.  She is all for change and accepts the leadership of the visionary but the tug of the old lifestyle is too strong to resist.  Hairy Mike = Red Viper.  

1. Idk, Im pretty sure that Abner and the Imp are actually smarter then they think they are, and every other character, and even the reader. (Or at least just me lol)

However I do see the rest of the comparisons

2. Only Julian was against Joshuas elixir, and still acted gingerly against it. This is different them the ghiscari who will war on Dany in an instant over the preservation of slavery. If anything I see Joshua as a Jon Snow/Mance Rayder type. Trying to save their doomed people

3. Im happy with Jorahs current ending, slaver turned escape slave=badass... I see a bit of Samwell in Jeffers.

4. I dont see Euron, short of being scary as hell. Eurons no punk, he'll get his hands dirty. Although hes king he doesnt rely on his subjects. Julian on the other hand is completely dependant on his subjects, refusing to even go out in the day time.

Furthermore Julian is happy with the status quo (happys not the right word... Dudes so old I feel like he cant even imagine another life) where as Euron sailed further then any human in history and changes ancient westerosi laws like the abolishment of slavery.

5. Lol chill, Bronns no picnic but he aint Billy. That dudes the worst. The 3 main characteristics I think of would be,

A. Good with a knife like Arya. It doesn't matter who hes fighting, Billy/Arya are experts in the art of stabbing

B. A piece of shit overseer. His job is to beat slaves, fuck him and Nurse

C. (This is the fun one) Billy has an intense loyalty all for the benefit of an impossibility. This is unfortunately very similar to Brienne. (Not trying to compare them in a morality contest) Brienne has always wanted a better life, a life draped in romance and warfare, knighthood. Yet for a woman to become a knight is as likely as a cattle to become a nightwalker. However does this dampen her loyalty to Jaime? 

 

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Billy reminded me a little bit of Ramsay.

I also got a vibe of Brynden Rivers from Joshua York, but maybe because they were both sort of mysterious (and albinos)

I’m ok with the Euron Julian comparison, I kind of see it.

i don’t see the Tyrion Abner Marsh comparison at all though.  Tyrion is witty and a schemer (he loves the game of thrones) .  Abner is the exact opposite of that.  I’d almost equate Abner with Davos.

But the most interesting comparison may be between the pale  “vampire” race in Fevre Dream and how the Others were described in legend.

Quote

“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins... They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Cold, dead things, pale white skins.  Thirst for human blood.  Hated the touch of the sun, a human child is fed to Julian’s dead servants.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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16 hours ago, Centurion Piso said:

WARNING:  SPOILERS FOR FEVRE DREAM AHEAD.  

 

I have recently completed Fevre Dream.  I found it a good enough read.  The characters in this seminal work do have much in common with the main people in A Song of Ice and Fire.  

  1. Tyrion Lannister = Abner Marsh.  Desperate for something, he allies with a person of power to get it.  Tyrion wants Casterly Rock.  Abner wants to build the fastest boat on the river.  They're both too curious for their own good and not as smart as they think they are.  But deep down they are loyal once they give their loyalty to a partner.
  2. Daenerys Targaryen = Joshua Anton York.  Visionaries who want to make fundamental changes to their world.  Daenerys wants to abolish slavery and found the means to do it.  Joshua wants to change the vampire way of life and invented an elixir to control the thirst.  They both are meeting fierce resistance to this change.  
  3. Jorah Mormont = Jonathon Jeffers.  They are smart men who are willing to protect their friends.  I am hopeful Jorah will get a better ending.  
  4. Euron Greyjoy = Damon Julian.  The Harpy is also Damon because they want to hang on to an old way of life despite the suffering and misery it inflicts on others.  
  5. Bronn = Sour Billy.  Detestable people who will do anything for the promise of something great in return.  

Abner Marsh can also be compared to Davos.  They support somebody they don't completely agree with and are loyal in his own way.  Valerie is like Skahaz.  She is all for change and accepts the leadership of the visionary but the tug of the old lifestyle is too strong to resist.  Hairy Mike = Red Viper.  

I have read this story a few times and I quite like it. Just going to make a few notes of my own observations as well.

1. Abner Marsh is Davos all the way! There is a little of Stannis in there as well, but he is a primarliy a Davos prototype. This makes sense since Davos, Stannis, and Jon are and will soon be working for the same cause. Freeing the humanity of Westeros and co-existence between the Free Folk and the southroners. I do feel like we get the "time is a river" trip that Tyrion takes while on the Rhoyne in ADWD because of Fevre Dream, for sure. Abner makes the comments that allude to such ideas.

2. Joshua Anton York is a near 98% Jon Stark(SNOW) protoype with a bit of Bran and Bloodraven mixed in there. This trio tends to be how GRRM wrote these characters along his literary way, but expanded them in to three characters for ASOIAF... but only expanded enough bodily because they will (and do) share some psi-link bonds as well. Jon is savinf the freef olk from the slavery of the ice dragon-corporate Others, and there is even a Val-free folk romantic connection as well. This points to a future arc of Davos being a "half hand" for Jon in the future.

3. Jonathon Jeffers is defenitely the various steward-types we see. Agree.

4. Damon Julian is most defenitely the Daenerys of our story now. I mean, Damon even has a sad Garoux plantation experience as Dany and Viserys do with Willem Darry in Braavos. And Damon is overall rather ambivelant against slavery, calling humans hypocrites against their own, but int he end he keeps mental slaves via a "blood of my blood" master relationship with his followers. Now, there are definitely Euron elements here as well which makes sense because Euron and Dany are both "Other" type characters, as is Cersei and Old Walder Frey.

5. Sour Billy is a rather extrememly close prototype to Janos Slynt right down to the torture and the racist/bigoted name calling and the false feeling of being "superior". There are elements of Ramsay in here, but more that Damon has made Sour Billy a type of "Reek" as Damon did to this servant before Billy, the one Josh had to give 'mercy' to when Abner saw his red hands.

6. Valerie/Cynthia are like a Ygritte/Val protype... reowrked a but for the ASOIAF setting and plot. That includes the Josh-Jon sending them on a mission, a baby is involved, wanting to flee/free themselves from the "red thirst"- which is the fire and blood related desire for the iron throne.

That brings me to the the ship itself, the Fevre Dream. That is like the weirwood that is overtaken/usurped by the fire dragon Damon and is painted red and black. There is an interview out there where GRRM talks about the iron throne actually symbolizes, oppression, and then he calls it Ozymandias... just like the ship :devil:. But what "throne" ultimately ends up the winner???? The neutral nature takes over- no more Ozymandias. That's kind of a running theme with GRRM across many stories of his ;)

It is a great story to find so many earlier ASOIAF prototyping and to get a feel for GRRM's style. Recommended for sure :cheers:

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18 hours ago, Centurion Piso said:

WARNING:  SPOILERS FOR FEVRE DREAM AHEAD.  

 

I have recently completed Fevre Dream.  I found it a good enough read.  The characters in this seminal work do have much in common with the main people in A Song of Ice and Fire.  

  1. Tyrion Lannister = Abner Marsh.  Desperate for something, he allies with a person of power to get it.  Tyrion wants Casterly Rock.  Abner wants to build the fastest boat on the river.  They're both too curious for their own good and not as smart as they think they are.  But deep down they are loyal once they give their loyalty to a partner.
  2. Daenerys Targaryen = Joshua Anton York.  Visionaries who want to make fundamental changes to their world.  Daenerys wants to abolish slavery and found the means to do it.  Joshua wants to change the vampire way of life and invented an elixir to control the thirst.  They both are meeting fierce resistance to this change.  
  3. Jorah Mormont = Jonathon Jeffers.  They are smart men who are willing to protect their friends.  I am hopeful Jorah will get a better ending.  
  4. Euron Greyjoy = Damon Julian.  The Harpy is also Damon because they want to hang on to an old way of life despite the suffering and misery it inflicts on others.  
  5. Bronn = Sour Billy.  Detestable people who will do anything for the promise of something great in return.  

Abner Marsh can also be compared to Davos.  They support somebody they don't completely agree with and are loyal in his own way.  Valerie is like Skahaz.  She is all for change and accepts the leadership of the visionary but the tug of the old lifestyle is too strong to resist.  Hairy Mike = Red Viper.  

The novel was written while our man was in his formative stage.  The premise is indeed interesting.  Vampires in the South.  The use of the n word made me cringe.

Anyhoo, on to my commentary. 

Jorah Mormont also compare favorably to Abner Marsh.  He wants to go back home and found allies in the Targaryen siblings. 

Daenerys is the direct comparison, the parallel to Joshua York because she is the only ruler/leader/noble in the story who wants to improve the lives of the many.  She puts aside her own desire to take back her lands in order to help the slaves.  Daenerys/Joshua are the main protagonists assisted by Jorah/Abner.  

Sour Billy Tipton is a hired gun like Bronn.  But I can connect him to Victarion too.  Somebody sent on an errand to the bidding of another for the promise of something desirable to him.  Empty promises but Billy's eyes are clouded.  I can also see Arya in Billy's depravity.  Arya is driven by the promise of revenge.  

The shared theme is the question of whether the strong can prey on the weak.  Do the strong, in this case the vampire race and the white masters, have the right to prey on the cattle/slaves?  As beings who have the capacity to reason, the answer is no.  One of the strong, because he spent time with the cattle, grew to sympathize.  Daenerys was "sold" to the Dothraki and eventually grew to care for the predicament of the poor and the weak.  Joshua used his time to find a solution to quell the need, though less it brings less pleasure to the vampires.  Daenerys is forcing the masters to release their slaves, though it will mean those masters will now have to work and earn their own living.  Nevertheless, though not easy, the two heroes are doing the right thing.

 

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5 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Sour Billy is a rather extrememly close prototype to Janos Slynt right down to the torture and the racist/bigoted name calling and the false feeling of being "superior". There are elements of Ramsay in here, but more that Damon has made Sour Billy a type of "Reek" as Damon did to this servant before Billy, the one Josh had to give 'mercy' to when Abner saw his red hands.

It’s probably the eyes that make me think of Ramsey

Quote

Sour Billy was a dark, cadaverous man, his long horseface scarred by the pox he’d had as a boy, his hair thin and brown and flaky. He seldom smiled, and he had frightening ice-colored eyes.

But you’re right there is a bit of Reek in Billy.  Perhaps a hint as to Ramsay’s future.

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I consider Abner Marsh and Joshua York to both be horrible people.

I'm not at all sure GRRM agrees with my assessment.  I suspect not.

Then again, I also think Tyrion is a horrible person.  And I'm not at all sure GRRM agrees with me there either.  

Abner Marsh is also clearly inspired by Apollon Zamp from the Jack Vance novel  Showboat World.   Zamp is supposed to be a bit of a scumbag, but I think I still prefer him to Marsh.

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Just a few more notes before I fall out. There is quite a bit of ingrained poetry in this story, and it pretty much exclusively takes place on the river, which gives us Lord Byron Rivers... Lord Brynden Rivers. Again, this Jon-Bran-Bloodraven archetype is generally from one source that Martin has expanded in to three for ASOAIF because he has the literary room to do so. Martin has called Jon the “Byronic hero” of ASOAIF and that may be as close to a straight literary line as we will get with GRRM: 

The character I’m probably most like in real life is Samwell Tarly. Good old Sam. And the character I’d want to be? Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. Theon [Greyjoy] is the one I’d fear becoming. Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can’t do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into to his own selfish, worst impulses.

One of the poems really explains the iron throne and the “Red thirst” (desire for the bloody chair) is Percy Shelley’s Ozymandias: 

  • And yet, and yet… it’s still not right. It’s not the Iron Throne I see when I’m working on THE WINDS OF WINTER. It’s not the Iron Throne I want my readers to see. The way the throne is described in the books… HUGE, hulking, black and twisted, with the steep iron stairs in front, the high seat from which the king looks DOWN on everyone in the court… my throne is a hunched beast looming over the throne room, ugly and assymetric… It’s a throne made by blacksmiths hammering together half-melted, broken, twisted swords, wrenched from the hands of dead men or yielded up by defeated foes… a symbol of conquest… it has the steps I describe, and the height. From on top, the king dominates the throne room. And there are thousands of swords in it, not just a few. This Iron Throne is scary. And not at all a comfortable seat, just as Aegon intended. Look on his works, ye mighty, and despair

Ozymandias is a political poem at heart, written at a time when Napoleon’s domination of Europe was coming to an end and another empire, that of Great Britain’s, was about to take over. When we first see the Fevre Dream it beautiful and white and silver and has *flowers* atop its crown, but it is soon usurped. 

Ozymandias

I met a traveller from an antique land, 
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone 
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand, 
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown, 
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command, 
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read 
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things, 
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed; 
And on the pedestal, these words appear: 
“My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings; 
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!” 
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay 
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare 
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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George R R Martin talks about vampires here.

Who is hero is a matter of perspective.  This as well applies to the question of who is good and who are evil.  At least in the opinion of George.  The Abner character is carried to Game of Thrones within Jorah, Tyrion, Barristan, and Davos.  Mostly Tyrion though.  Abner is surrounded by evil.  Evil in the form of slavery.  He's a practical man but he recognizes slavery as very wrong.  But he's one man and knows his own limitations.  Toby is an example of Abner doing the right thing within his limited means.  He did right by Toby and set him free.  I don't fault Abner Marsh for wanting to build the fastest, grandest boat.  It's a point of pride but more than that it is good for business.  He failed his first rescue attempt and got people killed.  The plan with the shotgun also failed.  The third time succeeds.  It was about the boat at first.  His boat.  But to me, Abner Marsh came to realize there's something bigger than boats and business at stake.  He saw his chance to help the vampire people break the chains of the blood thirst.  For you see, the vampire people are also slaves to the hunger.  Marsh is an abolitionists in this way.  

The devaluation of life in the south compare to the slave trade in Ghis.  The vampires feed on the human livestock but are they any worse than the whites who enslaved the darker skinned people.  Marsh, an ordinary man, got himself mixed up in something really big.  The Fevre Dream and the business are just the settings.  The problem the protagonists have to overcome are the same.  How to break the chains that bind people.  Joshua's potion could be the key to unlock that chain for the vampire folk.  Powerful he may be but he can't do this alone.  He needs Abner.  Dany is very powerful but she can't stop slavery all on her own.  She needs loyal people like Barristan, Jorah, and Daario.  The problem to be solved is smaller and not as complicated when compared to the problem of slavery in game of thrones.  We might see Dany shift the Dothraki society from raiding and slaving.  Asha would like to do the same for the Ironborn away from piracy.  Slavery is the shackle that bind the people in both of the story lines.  You just know the world will be a little bit better if the two protagonists, Daenerys and Joshua, succeed in what they want to do. 

The analogue to Billy Tipton is coming in Winds.  It is not a fact but simply a prediction on my part.  There are people who serve the icy darkness and they will be revealed.  Euron is one.  The ancestors of the Starks probably are as well.  The warlocks of Qarth might have sold their services in exchange for long lives.  Bloodraven would not surprise me.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

I consider Abner Marsh and Joshua York to both be horrible people.

I'm not at all sure GRRM agrees with my assessment.  I suspect not.

Then again, I also think Tyrion is a horrible person.  And I'm not at all sure GRRM agrees with me there either.  

Abner Marsh is also clearly inspired by Apollon Zamp from the Jack Vance novel  Showboat World.   Zamp is supposed to be a bit of a scumbag, but I think I still prefer him to Marsh.

He may not but he knows the readers are not homogenous.  That's why there is room for interpretation.

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5 hours ago, The Anti-Stark said:

The novel was written while our man was in his formative stage.  The premise is indeed interesting.  Vampires in the South.  The use of the n word made me cringe.

Anyhoo, on to my commentary. 

Jorah Mormont also compare favorably to Abner Marsh.  He wants to go back home and found allies in the Targaryen siblings. 

Daenerys is the direct comparison, the parallel to Joshua York because she is the only ruler/leader/noble in the story who wants to improve the lives of the many.  She puts aside her own desire to take back her lands in order to help the slaves.  Daenerys/Joshua are the main protagonists assisted by Jorah/Abner.  

Sour Billy Tipton is a hired gun like Bronn.  But I can connect him to Victarion too.  Somebody sent on an errand to the bidding of another for the promise of something desirable to him.  Empty promises but Billy's eyes are clouded.  I can also see Arya in Billy's depravity.  Arya is driven by the promise of revenge.  

The shared theme is the question of whether the strong can prey on the weak.  Do the strong, in this case the vampire race and the white masters, have the right to prey on the cattle/slaves?  As beings who have the capacity to reason, the answer is no.  One of the strong, because he spent time with the cattle, grew to sympathize.  Daenerys was "sold" to the Dothraki and eventually grew to care for the predicament of the poor and the weak.  Joshua used his time to find a solution to quell the need, though less it brings less pleasure to the vampires.  Daenerys is forcing the masters to release their slaves, though it will mean those masters will now have to work and earn their own living.  Nevertheless, though not easy, the two heroes are doing the right thing.

 

Bronn is the enabler to the Lannisters like Billy is the enabler to Damon.  But I predict we will see a more congruent character when Winds comes out.  I mean like humans who support the WW and ice.  Euron might serve the god of darkness and ice.  I suspect the Starks have in the past and may again.  

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15 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

He may not but he knows the readers are not homogenous.  That's why there is room for interpretation.

Joshua York is a kidnapper whose kidnapping of 30 people predictably led to their deaths.  Legally, that is equivalent to murder.  Abner Marsh is morally (though perhaps not legally) complicit in this by his silence and (ultimately) his grudging acceptance and approval of Joshua York's behavior.  

There's not much room for interpretation here.  What happens is what happens.

But readers are not homogenous, so yes, some will be okay with that sort of thing.

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On 9/22/2019 at 2:10 PM, Frey family reunion said:

 

Billy reminded me a little bit of Ramsay.

I also got a vibe of Brynden Rivers from Joshua York, but maybe because they were both sort of mysterious (and albinos)

I’m ok with the Euron Julian comparison, I kind of see it.

i don’t see the Tyrion Abner Marsh comparison at all though.  Tyrion is witty and a schemer (he loves the game of thrones) .  Abner is the exact opposite of that.  I’d almost equate Abner with Davos.

But the most interesting comparison may be between the pale  “vampire” race in Fevre Dream and how the Others were described in legend.

Cold, dead things, pale white skins.  Thirst for human blood.  Hated the touch of the sun, a human child is fed to Julian’s dead servants.

 

The unifying factor between Tyrion and Abner is that they are both self-inserts for GRRM; especially Abner (physically, he is a not particularly handsome, and heavyset, man).  Tyrion has GRRM's thirst for knowledge; Abner is a working man who can appreciate the finer things - poetry, beauty.

I have always considered Fevre Dream the best vampire story I've ever read.  I also think it is better written than ASoIaF; just a personal opinion.

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On 9/21/2019 at 10:07 PM, Centurion Piso said:

WARNING:  SPOILERS FOR FEVRE DREAM AHEAD.  

 

I have recently completed Fevre Dream.  I found it a good enough read.  The characters in this seminal work do have much in common with the main people in A Song of Ice and Fire.  

  1. Tyrion Lannister = Abner Marsh.  Desperate for something, he allies with a person of power to get it.  Tyrion wants Casterly Rock.  Abner wants to build the fastest boat on the river.  They're both too curious for their own good and not as smart as they think they are.  But deep down they are loyal once they give their loyalty to a partner.
  2. Daenerys Targaryen = Joshua Anton York.  Visionaries who want to make fundamental changes to their world.  Daenerys wants to abolish slavery and found the means to do it.  Joshua wants to change the vampire way of life and invented an elixir to control the thirst.  They both are meeting fierce resistance to this change.  
  3. Jorah Mormont = Jonathon Jeffers.  They are smart men who are willing to protect their friends.  I am hopeful Jorah will get a better ending.  
  4. Euron Greyjoy = Damon Julian.  The Harpy is also Damon because they want to hang on to an old way of life despite the suffering and misery it inflicts on others.  
  5. Bronn = Sour Billy.  Detestable people who will do anything for the promise of something great in return.  

Abner Marsh can also be compared to Davos.  They support somebody they don't completely agree with and are loyal in his own way.  Valerie is like Skahaz.  She is all for change and accepts the leadership of the visionary but the tug of the old lifestyle is too strong to resist.  Hairy Mike = Red Viper.  

Daenerys and Joshua are the characters where the stories pivot.  They are the agents of change within their respective stories.  Abner is the main view point.  He's the almost average person who got pulled into the dreams of the agents of change.  Abner can indeed be likened to Tyrion, Jorah, Barristan, Daario, and Missandei.  Though yes, it is Tyrion that most closely match.  The supporting casts of Jonathon, Mike, Toby, have the same role thatof  Daario, Barristan, and Greyworm have.

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York was naive in believing Julian would give up easily.  Abner was naive in thinking he can outsmart Damon Julian and a lot of good people and vampire got killed for his poor planning.  Julian is the cunning bad guy.  Green Grace and Euron are cunning villains  

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On 9/22/2019 at 9:14 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I consider Abner Marsh and Joshua York to both be horrible people.

I'm not at all sure GRRM agrees with my assessment.  I suspect not.

Then again, I also think Tyrion is a horrible person.  And I'm not at all sure GRRM agrees with me there either.  

Abner Marsh is also clearly inspired by Apollon Zamp from the Jack Vance novel  Showboat World.   Zamp is supposed to be a bit of a scumbag, but I think I still prefer him to Marsh.

Horrible.  How so?  Abner is a businessman with grandiose dreams but lacked capital.  Joshua had the capital but lacked the knowledge to run the business.  They were both dreaming big but Joshua's could change the world.  All Abner wanted was glory in the beginning but he saw a greater cause. 

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8 hours ago, The Coonster said:

Horrible.  How so?  Abner is a businessman with grandiose dreams but lacked capital.  Joshua had the capital but lacked the knowledge to run the business.  They were both dreaming big but Joshua's could change the world.  All Abner wanted was glory in the beginning but he saw a greater cause. 

What greater cause?  Joshua York is a racial supremacist, who thinks his race loyalty justifies mass murder.  Abner Marsh is a selfish man who makes a deal with this devil, because fancy riverboats are more important to him than the human lives that must be sacrificed.

In the climax, Joshua York kidnaps 30 people, predictably leading to their deaths.  This is the legal and moral equivalent of mass murder.  

And this is just the icing on the cake.   Joshua York's associates are regularly committing murder.  Joshua York could prevent all this at any time.  All he need do is expose himself and all his murdering associates to the authorities.  But no.  Joshua York has a better idea, and it involves (eventually) seizing absolute power for himself and ruling his co-racialists in a way that will somehow prevent them from ever preying upon humans.  Until then, the end justifies the means, and all human lives are expendable.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Billy is the bad man serving a bad cause.  He's more evil than Bronn though.  Abner is the mixture of Jorah, Barristan, Davos, and Varys.  Maybe since FD was written first they are bits of Abner. 

 

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