U.S. Politics: Dirt From Ukrainians, Bombs for Iranians, Shut Down Your Brainiums...

[Paladin of Ice]

1 hour ago, Trebla said:

That's funny that the NYT highlights that after they (as others have already pointed out) essentially doxed the whistle blower. Never fear, though, they had reasons. 

 

Uh-huh. Yet I can't help but keep thinking about ol' Thomas Beckett.

What an incredibly stupid and BS "justification" for this. What you did it because Trump and his cronies were saying mean things? Trump was calling the whistleblower a partisan hack days ago and then admitting in the same sentence that he didn't know who the whistleblower was. As for right wing media and hardcore Trumpkins, why act like it'll take them more than a second to switch to comments like "deep state traitor!" or "on the Clinton payroll!" or whatever else. Shit, I bet that within 5 minutes of it breaking comments on Breitbart were already spreading memes and convincing themselves that the whistleblower was the next pedo that was about to be taken by Trump's fearless crusade against child molesters, so he tried to smear and take down Trump first. I'm not even going to guess how quickly they started talking there and elsewhere about how somebody has to assassinate the guy for the good of the country.

NYT has done some good work in the last three years or so, but they've also frequently been a spotlight of incompetence, bending over backward to suit right wing maniacs, and mind bending naivety. Even though the whistleblower's identity would inevitably be revealed when he testified if nothing else, this was nonetheless up there with the very dumbest of their stunts. So glad that I haven't given them a cent.

1 hour ago, Ice Queen said:

For the lawyers, isn't that witness intimidation/tampering and obstruction of justice?

He just can't shut his mouth. And we should throw those words right back in his face.

Of course he can't shut his mouth. His diseased, wormy brain literally cannot respond to any criticism or blow against him without lashing out violently. It's simultaneously why his base loves him, (too many of them live for the dream of lashing out and hurting people for wrongs done to them, see the "He's not hurting the right people" lady from the government shutdown) and why he is utterly unfit to be in charge of anything more important than a lego set.

The man is pathological, and a lifetime of having his ass kissed because of his father's money and being able to fire or sue anyone around who didn't placate his ego has done him no favors.

[sologdin]

Due process doesn't exist in mobland. And people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

you asked for an attorney's opinion.  am doubting that it will automatically be obstruction to suggest that a whistleblower (who has already provided evidence) has committed a crime. this is why we have whistleblower protection statutes: the law contemplates that they will be accused of wrongdoing.  could be dead wrong, of course.

[Jace, Extat]

21 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Oh of course! He never means anything he says!

You can't listen to what he says, you have to know what I want him to mean.

[Paladin of Ice]

Quote

For the lawyers, isn't that witness intimidation/tampering and obstruction of justice?

 He just can't shut his mouth. And we should throw those words right back in his face.

 

Quote

Of course he can't shut his mouth. His diseased, wormy brain literally cannot respond to any criticism or blow against him without lashing out violently.

Or, apparently, without trying to take someone else down with him when things look bad for him. (Maybe that's the real source of the eternal cries of "Obama did it too" that Trump likes to throw out, whether true or not.) Didn't see anything about this yesterday, sorry if someone else posted it then: Trump implicates Pence in Ukraine phone calls too.

Quote

President Donald Trump said on Wednesday that reporters should ask Mike Pence to release details of his conversations with Ukraine, seemingly drawing his vice president into the scandal that has engulfed the administration.

“I think you should ask for Vice President Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple of conversations also,” Trump said at a news conference on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in New York. “I could save you a lot of time. They were all perfect. Nothing was mentioned of any import other than congratulations.”

Trump also said he could be persuaded to release more information about an earlier conversation he had with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, while repeating that he did nothing inappropriate in his contacts with the foreign leader.

“The word is they’re going to ask for the first phone conversation,” Trump said at the news conference. “You can have it anytime you need it. And also Mike Pence’s conversations, which were, I think, one or two of them. They were perfect. They were all perfect.”

The comments came hours after the White House released a memo detailing Trump’s July 25 conversation with Zelensky in which Trump pressured him to open an investigation into Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden and his son. The document confirmed allegations that the president sought help from a foreign leader to investigate a political rival — allegations that convinced House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to formally launch an impeachment inquiry into Trump.

During the news conference, Trump revealed that the July 25 conversation was the second phone call between the two leaders and said he would release the first if prompted.

Now, while people wrongly tend to try to play up Pence as some eerily competent chessmaster who is a far bigger danger than Trump, (give me a break, dude is a former right wing talk radio jockey for crying out loud, and had possibly worn out his welcome in freaking Indiana before Trump picked him for the VP slot) he almost certainly isn't dumb enough to say something that would directly implicate himself in obvious wrongdoing, the way Trump has.

But if Trump's flailing and childish actions bring down Pence too, that will be a piece of beautiful irony/karma for the ages.

[Gertrude]

There's a report of a second whistleblower complaint.

A complaint was received in late July alleging interference with the automatic audit process for the President's tax returns. I hope this is something that bears fruit as well. It gives congress a very good reason to look into Trump's taxes - not that they don't have the right now, it just gives it more weight to get past the bullshit excuses Mnuchin has made,

Of course, Trump's taxes may or may not hold some gold nuggets, but I think that would take too much time to untangle to be relevant to the immediate probe. The mere existence of this should bolster the claim of abuse of power. Obviously the faithful will know it's a Deep State Conspiracy to throw as much shit at the martyred prez as possible, but they can't be helped.

[DMC]

Just wanna say thank you to this thread.  I was busy all day - read the complaint between classes - but before I went to sites I came here first.  You fuckers are my aether. 

7 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

Devin Nunes probabaly would have buried the whistleblower in a hole on his farm.

That's silly.  Like Nunes could competently manage a farm.

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Wanna know why dems can vote for impeachment? Because it just got much more popular:

 

Nice.  I want more!  And, I want the trend to continue - 49-46 is still not an adequate spread at the end.  But that's definitely an encouraging start.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, DMC said:

Just wanna say thank you to this thread.  I was busy all day - read the complaint between classes - but before I went to sites I came here first.  You fuckers are my aether. 

That's silly.  Like Nunes could competently manage a farm.

Nice.  I want more!  And, I want the trend to continue - 49-46 is still not an adequate spread at the end.  But that's definitely an encouraging start.

Politico has it at 43-43, up 7%, and the polling was concluded before today. Also, there were 13% undecided. Those 13% are the crucial ones. If the investigation can convince a sizable majority of them to support impeachment, then Trump is toast.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

If the investigation can convince a sizable majority of them to support impeachment, then Trump is toast.

Yeah I want it at least mirroring Trump's approval eventually, so around 55-40.  Anything less and it's a mistake.

[Jace, Extat]

14 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I want it at least mirroring Trump's approval eventually, so around 55-40.  Anything less and it's a mistake.

Agreed. I doubt highly that he could be removed from office unless he started personally threatening R senators in public (they would just eat their shame soup in private), but if we've got a good +50% public approval for the impeachment then that is going to turn out at least a couple of folks to vote who may not have otherwise.

It may not matter in the proceedings, but the anxiety of knowing that the public sees him for what he is is not negligible. Look at how he started floundering before the transcript even came out. Donnie ain't exactly what my dad woulda called 'mentally tough'.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah I want it at least mirroring Trump's approval eventually, so around 55-40.  Anything less and it's a mistake.

Honestly, I don't know how it doesn't get there. The whistleblower report is a treasure map of where exactly to look, and there is apparently a lot of treasure to be found.

I still doubt he gets removed, but I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a somewhat contentious Republican primary after all.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

but I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a somewhat contentious Republican primary after all.

Oh, I wouldn't put my hopes on that.  He's already been busy making sure that doesn't happen, and I very much doubt that will change.  Honestly it's more of a worry that some never-Trump douche runs in the general to siphon off otherwise Dem votes.

[dornishpen]

One part of the appendix to the whistleblower complaint that struck as particularly important if true is "this was "not the first time" under this Administration that a Presidential transcript was placed into this codeword-level system solely for the purpose of protecting politically sensitive—rather than national security sensitive—information."

It's possible the other transcripts are more benign than Ukraine one appears to be (keeping in mind that the administration released a memo, not the actual transcript), however it could also be the tip of the iceberg. And the House now knows exactly what to subpoena.

[davos]

4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

Honestly, I don't know how it doesn't get there. The whistleblower report is a treasure map of where exactly to look, and there is apparently a lot of treasure to be found.

I still doubt he gets removed, but I wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a somewhat contentious Republican primary after all.

A week ago I would have said that, outside of a catastrophic health event leading to death or severe disability, that Trump would remain in office at least through this term.  Its still the most likely outcome but I now see realistic paths to his administration ending early.    We still are getting a handle on how big this scandal is. And it could shake loose other problematic activities by the president.   On top of that, Trump is not stable and this has rubbed office on the culture of the white house.  The administration's response could actually compound the damage significantly.    

I strongly suspect that the GOP leadership is looking at options, if this crisis continues to on this trajectory rather than stabilizing and becoming manageable, about how they can get rid of Trump in time to get a new candidate in place for 2020.   Of course, Trump is not likely to play ball with any such schemes.  But, there are scenarios where, despite being president, his ability to control events becomes greatly diminished.  Of course, we are not there yet. And we don't know if the GOP would actually risk such a course given that a substantial portion of their base are also committed Trumpists.  The next several weeks are going to be telling.  If this thing continues to grow, a lot of new things that once were impossible are going to become reasonable options.  

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Remember back when he was a projected front runner to be the Republican nominee?

Is it really all that weird compared to what we got?

[Jeor]

2 minutes ago, davos said:

I strongly suspect that the GOP leadership is looking at options, if this crisis continues to on this trajectory rather than stabilizing and becoming manageable, about how they can get rid of Trump in time to get a new candidate in place for 2020.   Of course, Trump is not likely to play ball with any such schemes.  But, there are scenarios where, despite being president, his ability to control events becomes greatly diminished.  Of course, we are not there yet. And we don't know if the GOP would actually risk such a course given that a substantial portion of their base are also committed Trumpists.  The next several weeks are going to be telling.  If this thing continues to grow, a lot of new things that once were impossible are going to become reasonable options.  

I think it's more likely that the Republicans will defend Trump even more rabidly and cling even more desperately to power. Any hint of an alternative is sure to split the party and no Republican will want that - we've already seen in the past two years how much they're willing to tolerate and work with Trump to keep themselves in power.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, davos said:

if this crisis continues to on this trajectory rather than stabilizing and becoming manageable, about how they can get rid of Trump in time to get a new candidate in place for 2020. 

I don't think this is plausible.  Not only because of Trump's reaction and his irreparable connection to the base, but also because there's no good candidates to replace.  Like, seriously, who ya got?  I can't think of anybody on the GOP bench that has the balls to take Trump on, including Pence.  McConnell may own Trump's ass, but he's not running for president, ever.

6 minutes ago, Jeor said:

I think it's more likely that the Republicans will defend Trump even more rabidly and cling even more desperately to power.

Yup.  That's the tried and true gameplan.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh, I wouldn't put my hopes on that.  He's already been busy making sure that doesn't happen, and I very much doubt that will change.  Honestly it's more of a worry that some never-Trump douche runs in the general to siphon off otherwise Dem votes.

I'm feeling fairly confident that Amash will end up running as an independent if Republicans are able to somehow delay this thing enough for Trump to still be competitive next year.

And I don't think that Trump will lose the primary, or even that it'll even get close enough for political junkies to start salivating over a possible brokered convention. But if his impeachment numbers start tracking where his support numbers are now, then his support will start dropping in the future. Depending on how much it drops, I think that will actually force Trump to campaign in some states. And voters will be demanding a chance at a primary vote if things start getting too dicey with his poll numbers. I think he still wins, but I think he's going to have to put some effort into it.

[James Arryn]

One of the similarities to the Nixon administration coming out is the degree to which Trump and his people conflate their own political status with national security. I think he probably does this fairly sincerely rather than the callous expediency that seems to be the implied tone in most reporting about it. Nixon absolutely blurred those lines. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, The Great Unwashed said:

I'm feeling fairly confident that Amash will end up running as an independent if Republicans are able to somehow delay this thing enough for Trump to still be competitive next year.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.  There's no reason to characterize Trump's chances as "still be[ing] competitive next year."  Until there's data that says otherwise, I don't see any reason to assume he's in some fatalistic position.

4 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

But if his impeachment numbers start tracking where his support numbers are now, then his support will start dropping in the future. Depending on how much it drops, I think that will actually force Trump to campaign in some states. And voters will be demanding a chance at a primary vote if things start getting too dicey with his poll numbers. I think he still wins, but I think he's going to have to put some effort into it.

Hm..I'm thinking if his impeachment numbers track with his approval numbers - which is what I mentioned - then it's pretty much status quo.  There is the added benefit that that 55% is probably hardened against voting for him, but I don't see that affecting a primary challenge.  As for GOP voters demanding a primary challenge - have you met the average GOP voter?  They fall in line.  Especially when under attack.

3 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I think he probably does this fairly sincerely rather than the callous expediency that seems to be the implied tone in most reporting about it.

I think the similarity between the two is both are inclined to use national security as a "callous expediency."  I don't believe it's sincere.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

I think the similarity between the two is both are inclined to use national security as a "callous expediency."  I don't believe it's sincere.

I think that's true for Nixon, but Donnie is a little despot at heart. In his mind he is the state.