U.S. Politics: Dirt From Ukrainians, Bombs for Iranians, Shut Down Your Brainiums...

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think that's because its both scarily possible and leads to an absolute cluster fuck that no one can deal with thinking about it. Easier to focus on the option that Putin decides Trump as a patsy serves his interests better than attempting to just collapse the system entirely.

Yeah, here’s hoping. There is a certain irony to the fact that post Cold-War Russia has the relatively low-cost option of destroying the US. My reading of Putin’s ego is...like you said, here’s hoping he prefers the Useful Idiot in Chief. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

The Senate voted to end the emergency declaration at the border yesterday.  Not sure if this portends any more crumbling loyalty in the Senate to Trump. 

[sologdin]

why you think the US v Curtiss Wright decision may render the Logan Act unconstitutional?

inartful drafting on my part; those are two separate points.  i think curtiss-wright authorizes certain executuve conduct, but i speculate that the logan act itself may be a bad criminal statute for other reasons.

[DMC]

11 minutes ago, sologdin said:

i think curtiss-wright authorizes certain executuve conduct, but i speculate that the logan act itself may be a bad criminal statute for other reasons.

Gotcha thanks.  I think you have a point that Logan is a relic considering it hasn't been used since before the Civil War (hm..Logan as a relic from the Civil War era, sounds like a good movie) and no one has ever been convicted.

[Gertrude]

Oh shit - the report is out. Buckle up boys, today is going to be a ride. The shit the pundits are scrambling to read right now is damning.

[Raja]

Here's the whistle-blower complaint

Edit: Still reading, but surely we're going to see Giuliani testify, at the very least. He's all over this stuff.

[Mexal]

Fun read. Lots of people involved. Time to get some public hearings going.

[Raja]

I imagine the talking point from the republicans is going to center around the second point where the whistle-blower acknowledges that they were 'not a direct witness to most of the events described' - but I think this report gives the dems more than enough to turn the screw on this with public hearings etc, basically what DMC said a couple of pages ago, and this just adds more to that.

Edit: Honestly, the way Adam Schiff runs these hearings, I'm not sure he's capable of applying any pressure publicly.

[Gertrude]

Oh yeah, Nunes is saying that in the hearing. He is also spewing a bunch of other bullshit and blaming the Dems for not respecting the whistleblower process. Stay classy, assclown, I guess he's so far in there's no where else for him to go.

His speech is oddly halted - like he's reading it for the first time.

[The Anti-Targ]

One should not lose sight of the fact that Biden's son may still have done the shit that Trump wanted to have exposed, and perhaps Biden benefitted from it in some way. And they shouldn't get a pass for it simply because Trump went about it bringing it to light in a way that endangers himself.

Is this trigger for impeachment because Trump finally did something utterly beyond the pale, or is it because he exposed ways that the political class enriches itself in ways that most people would see as beyond the pale?

Did Trump ask for dirt to be manufactured, or simply for pre-existing dirt to be exposed and brought to light? It's a legitimate political weapon to use your opponent's scandal and corrupt behaviour to beat them electorally. If Trump was able to get it by less foul means (and I'm sure he could have) the shitstorm would be circling Biden and not Trump.

[Maithanet]

6 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

One should not lose sight of the fact that Biden's son may still have done the shit that Trump wanted to have exposed, and perhaps Biden benefitted from it in some way. And they shouldn't get a pass for it simply because Trump went about it bringing it to light in a way that endangers himself.

Is this trigger for impeachment because Trump finally did something utterly beyond the pale, or is it because he exposed ways that the political class enriches itself in ways that most people would see as beyond the pale?

Did Trump ask for dirt to be manufactured, or simply for pre-existing dirt to be exposed and brought to light? It's a legitimate political weapon to use your opponent's scandal and corrupt behaviour to beat them electorally. If Trump was able to get it by less foul means (and I'm sure he could have) the shitstorm would be circling Biden and not Trump.

I don't think this is relevant at all.  Trump withheld public money to ensure that a foreign actor would assist him in interfering with the 2020 election.  That is really fucking serious.

If Trump had instead just sent a team of muckrakers to Ukraine to interview people and see if Biden did something wrong the situation would be totally different.  But he didn't do that.  Whether or not Biden's son actually did something illegal is like three degrees removed from relevant to this situation. 

[Gertrude]

1 minute ago, The Anti-Targ said:

One should not lose sight of the fact that Biden's son may still have done the shit that Trump wanted to have exposed, and perhaps Biden benefitted from it in some way. And they shouldn't get a pass for it simply because Trump went about it bringing it to light in a way that endangers himself.

I don't give a shit about Biden. If he did it and there is enough evidence, I'd be happy to see him or his son punished. I suspect it's more crony capitalism - shady and unfair, (with a sprinkle of conflict of interest mixed in) - but not much more than happens every day, everywhere. It's not like we don't know this happens, it's just that it's so pervasive that it's like breathing air. If there's more to it, hang 'em.

It doesn't matter whether Trump asked for existing dirt or wanted it manufactured. One is worse, obviously, but it's not the crux of the matter. It seems he extorted a foreign nation for personal gain using the power and might of his public position. And that he apparently tried to cover this up because duh. This is the issue and it is completely separate from what the Bidens might or might not have done.

[Gertrude]

Nunes really doesn't have much he can push back on. It's kind of fun to see him fumble and push weak peripheral points. I'm soooooo interested to see the R talking points on this once they can process it a bit. I'm expecting their email soon.

[Kalbear]

Also also, no. Dont whatabout this. The biden story is a literal hoax. It has the legal value of pizza gate. There are a number of threads about it, but basically it would require Biden to have actually done things that didnt happen and for the obama administration to have not openly campaigned for those things.

[Bonnot OG]

Trumps gonna win again because Biden is gonna be the candidate because Tom Perez is another useless fuckhead heading the DNC that refuses to put his foot down and show any leadership. Biden should be forced to back out. 

 

Theyre never gonna be able to focus on trumps horrible policies and bigotry if they have to worry about Biden’s fuck ups and shadiness

[Mexal]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Also also, no. Dont whatabout this. The biden story is a literal hoax. It has the legal value of pizza gate. There are a number of threads about it, but basically it would require Biden to have actually done things that didnt happen and for the obama administration to have not openly campaigned for those things.

Exactly. It was a decision by Obama through consultation with the State Department. Biden just tasked to deliver the message. Also, we're talking about Victor Shokin here. Dude was as corrupt as they come. He would open an investigation to shake down who he was investigating and then close it after he got what he wanted. He actually never prosecuted anyone for corruption.

[Maithanet]

3 minutes ago, Mexal said:

Exactly. It was a decision by Obama through consultation with the State Department. Biden just tasked to deliver the message. Also, we're talking about Victor Shokin here. Dude was as corrupt as they come. He would open an investigation to shake down who he was investigating and then close it after he got what he wanted. He actually never prosecuted anyone for corruption.

bbbut!  Shokin was "investigating" Zlochevsky!  Clearly Biden and the Democrats are just as bad as Trump! 

[Gertrude]

Look, I think the Biden thing is bullshit. I also don't care to debate it and am happy to concede that sure, he's a  bad man - investigate him and see where that gets you. It's literally not pertinent to the impeachment process and costs me nothing to cede so that I can get back to jumping up and down on Trump's bloated political corpse.

eta: I may be getting ahead of myself here about Trump's demise, but let me enjoy the moment.

[Jeor]

Interesting listening to the hearing.

Fox News and the right-wing outlets are never going to publish these remarks, but Maguire's words that he believed the whistleblower was acting in good faith, and that the Inspector-General found the whistleblower's complaints credible, are pretty damning for Trump. As well as the fact that Maguire obviously spoke to Trump about the complaint but tried to dodge it by saying (rightly, I guess) that his conversations with the President were privileged.

I just want to see Giuliani get excised at a hearing and see him call everyone morons.

 

[Morpheus]

29 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

eta: I may be getting ahead of myself here about Trump's demise, but let me enjoy the moment.

I don’t see Republicans budging on this, they have already committed themselves fully to his defense so no matter how much more damning it gets they haven’t left themselves much wiggle room to distance themselves. They aren’t even admitting that there is a problem at this point, the idiots at this hearing are still crying “witch hunt”.