U.S. Politics: Dirt From Ukrainians, Bombs for Iranians, Shut Down Your Brainiums...

[Jace, Extat]

2 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Ultimately that’s totally correct, isn’t it? Isn’t that why people withheld part of their taxes during the Vietnam War? And got jailed for it? If you don’t speak against the reprehensible actions of the military you are complicit. Most people, however, will shrug their shoulders instead of speaking out. And from this side of the fence it seems to me that saying anything against the US military (or, even, just kneeling at a football game) opens you to attack and accusations of being in-American or even a traitor.

So you acknowledge the societal soup that compels people to do things like join or support indirectly a war but you and your little cabal refuse to consider that human beings are capable of being manipulated en masse? 

It boggles the fuck out of my mind that a bunch of supposedly 'liberal' persons would be so casually dismissive of the pressures a state can put on normal people to support their war effort.

Because you're not wrong in your assertions of the warped American perspective. But to say that people who are being taken advantage of BY THEIR GOVERNMENT (a thing most humans throughout history are conditioned to obey) have personal responsibility for crimes committed by said government is wrong. And to suggest that they're all bloodthirsty goons is abjectly cruel and wilfully ignorant of how societies work. We aren't talking about people who joined the Crips or a notoriously violent biker gang. 

And your response to Scott's taxation question is profoundly disturbing to see. I suppose all the children in Nagasaki and Hiroshima had it coming? The non-combatants in Dresden and fucking Paris-La Chapelle? What about the 5,000 dead in Le Havre? Did they bear responsibility for Werhmact and Einstatzgruppen atrocities in Poland for the crime of supporting a regime that subjugated their state? I guess if they weren't dodging the Nazi tax man they're fair fucking game right?

The active refusal to understand how and why people get taken advantage of by the institutions that are supposed to protect them breaks my heart more than anything that orange mistake and his rabid followers could ever hope to manage. Because it's never going to stop if even liberals don't care to actually understand and react appropriately to the forces at work. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Sure, Canadian, British, etc forces too. Much like it would be entirely fair to say that in WW1 and WW2 you were volunteering to help kill Germans and Japanese.

Hohkay then, you continue going around patting yourself on the back with your offensively self-righteous but semantically accurate definition implying everyone that signs up for the armed forces is doing so to help kill muslims.  You're truly changing the world with such courage.

2 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

That word is Nazi. Nobody cares about their motives anymore.”

Yeah the US military's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is not comparable to the Nazis.  Spare me the undergrad Arendt and banality of evil essay quotes.

[Liffguard]

22 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And that is certainly a point of view.  If my wife and I refuse to pay taxes to protest ongoing military conflicts who will care for my children?  

This entire discussion brings to mind Emerson’s quote:

I value consistency it shows a degree of integrity and intellectual honesty.  That said it can be taken too far.  I think condemning every member of the American Military as a murderer for actions they may not have directly contributed to is too much.

That isn’t the argument being made. The argument is that every member of the US armed forces (and British, and Canadian etc.) joined in the knowledge that they could be called upon to kill people, or at the very least provide direct support in aid of that mission. That doesn’t seem controversial to me. That’s what militaries are for. Armed forces exist, in the final reckoning, to exert violent force against human beings. Does anyone deny this?

That doesn’t mean that everyone who joined, joined for that reason. There are all sorts of economic and sociological and cultural reasons why a person joins the military. I don’t deny the serious economic and cultural pressure that can be brought to bear against the vulnerable to secure their service. Poor people with no other means of forging a prosperous life for themselves. Young people strongly convinced by nationalist rhetoric. I acknowledge these people. I knew these people personally.

But still, they joined knowing that ultimately their service would be in support of violence, likely against Iraqi or Afghan people. That’s not necessarily to condemn, but it has to at least be recognised.

[Maithanet]

I think this Ukraine controversy is going to take Biden down with it.  Even though there's little/no evidence of actual wrongdoing, Trump's main defense (and I've already heard multiple conservatives I know parroting it) is that "Biden witheld aid for political purposes too!" Which is trueish, except that Biden was witholding aid to fight against corruption and Trump was doing it to actively sabotage an American political campaign. 

But if you're explaining, your losing, and even if Biden didn't do much wrong, he doesn't exactly look good here.  I'm not sure Biden would have won the nomination anyway, but it is going to be very hard for him to maintain his position and get any sort of momentum in the next few weeks/months. 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

4 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

That isn’t the argument being made. The argument is that every member of the US armed forces (and British, and Canadian etc.) joined in the knowledge that they could be called upon to kill people, or at the very least provide direct support in aid of that mission. That doesn’t seem controversial to me. That’s what militaries are for. Armed forces exist, in the final reckoning, to exert violent force against human beings. Does anyone deny this?

That doesn’t mean that everyone who joined, joined for that reason. There are all sorts of economic and sociological and cultural reasons why a person joins the military. I don’t deny the serious economic and cultural pressure that can be brought to bear against the vulnerable to secure their service. Poor people with no other means of forging a prosperous life for themselves. Young people strongly convinced by nationalist rhetoric. I acknowledge these people. I knew these people personally.

But still, they joined knowing that ultimately their service would be in support of violence, likely against Iraqi or Afghan people. That’s not necessarily to condemn, but it has to at least be recognised.

I do appreciate that point of view.  Militaries do have the capability to break things and kill people.  Nevertheless, calling everyone who joins a murderer or an accessory to murder seems several steps too far in my view.  That’s where Bonnet was going.  If that is true aren’t those of us not refusing to pay taxes also accessories?  

[sologdin]

damn, abrasive side this morning.

these points were made by the needlessly bellicose regarding non-combatant deaths in iraq, in defense of that mortality: why didn't those dead iraqi children vote hussein out? a silly application of the serious principle that democracy ratifies policy in a way that autocracy does not.  by that rationale,  dead civilians at hiroshima are unwarranted whereas civilian deaths in new york are warranted.

[TrueMetis]

2 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

A German soldier in WWII would probably tell you that he was drafted and there were no conscientious objectors in the Nazi state. Read a book you fucking fool.

I very much do not care. Being drafted is still not a fucking excuse. Motherfucker we settled this, "I was just following orders" is not an excuse. "I had no choice" is not an excuse. You can tell me to read all the fucking books in the world, but this isn't an abstract thing to me, this is my life. I'm not an outsider looking in passing judgement, I'm an insider telling you how it fucking works. Telling you what I was told when I entered the military, and what I'll be telling those under my command when I receive my full commission.

1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Out of curiosity as you hold support personal in the American Armed forces responsible for the actions of line combat personnel do you also hold the American people paying the Taxes that provide support for those combat troops culpable as well?  

Yep, well at least for those actions sanctioned by the chain of command.

37 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

And that is certainly a point of view.  If my wife and I refuse to pay taxes to protest ongoing military conflicts who will care for my children?  

This entire discussion brings to mind Emerson’s quote: 

I value consistency it shows a degree of integrity and intellectual honesty.  That said it can be taken too far.  I think condemning every member of the American Military as a murderer for actions they may not have directly contributed to is too much.

Just because you've made a cost benefit analysis and decided against an action doesn't then absolve you of responsibility.

Also I've not claimed every member of any military is a murderer, I've used the word kill, not murder, for a reason.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, TrueMetis said:

I very much do not care. Being drafted is still not a fucking excuse. Motherfucker we settled this, "I was just following orders" is not an excuse. "I had no choice" is not an excuse. You can tell me to read all the fucking books in the world, but this isn't an abstract thing to me, this is my life. I'm not an outsider looking in passing judgement, I'm an insider telling you how it fucking works. Telling you what I was told when I entered the military, and what I'll be telling those under my command when I receive my full commission.

Yep, well at least for those actions sanctioned by the chain of command.

Just because you've made a cost benefit analysis and decided against an action doesn't then absolve you of responsibility.

Also I've not claimed every member of any military is a murderer, I've used the word kill, not murder for a reason.

Bonnet’s post was the origin point of this side discussion.  I do appreciate your distinction.

[Mexal]

7 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I think this Ukraine controversy is going to take Biden down with it.  Even though there's little/no evidence of actual wrongdoing, Trump's main defense (and I've already heard multiple conservatives I know parroting it) is that "Biden witheld aid for political purposes too!" Which is trueish, except that Biden was witholding aid to fight against corruption and Trump was doing it to actively sabotage an American political campaign. 

But if you're explaining, your losing, and even if Biden didn't do much wrong, he doesn't exactly look good here.  I'm not sure Biden would have won the nomination anyway, but it is going to be very hard for him to maintain his position and get any sort of momentum in the next few weeks/months. 

It’s the Hillary Clinton playbook. Warren is next.

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Mexal said:

It’s the Hillary Clinton playbook. Warren is next.

Yeah, to some extent.  But this isn't some master plan to bring about impeachment to take Biden down.  Trump operates by throwing shit everywhere, and then declaring politicians are all dirty. 

[Fragile Bird]

21 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

So you acknowledge the societal soup that compels people to do things like join or support indirectly a war but you and your little cabal refuse to consider that human beings are capable of being manipulated en masse? 

It boggles the fuck out of my mind that a bunch of supposedly 'liberal' persons would be so casually dismissive of the pressures a state can put on normal people to support their war effort.

Because you're not wrong in your assertions of the warped American perspective. But to say that people who are being taken advantage of BY THEIR GOVERNMENT (a thing most humans throughout history are conditioned to obey) have personal responsibility for crimes committed by said government is wrong. And to suggest that they're all bloodthirsty goons is abjectly cruel and wilfully ignorant of how societies work. We aren't talking about people who joined the Crips or a notoriously violent biker gang. 

And your response to Scott's taxation question is profoundly disturbing to see. I suppose all the children in Nagasaki and Hiroshima had it coming? The non-combatants in Dresden and fucking Paris-La Chapelle? What about the 5,000 dead in Le Havre? Did they bear responsibility for Werhmact and Einstatzgruppen atrocities in Poland for the crime of supporting a regime that subjugated their state? I guess if they weren't dodging the Nazi tax man they're fair fucking game right?

The active refusal to understand how and why people get taken advantage of by the institutions that are supposed to protect them breaks my heart more than anything that orange mistake and his rabid followers could ever hope to manage. Because it's never going to stop if even liberals don't care to actually understand and react appropriately to the forces at work. 

Way to go, Jace, way to go.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Just now, Maithanet said:

Yeah, to some extent.  But this isn't some master plan to bring about impeachment to take Biden down.  Trump operates by throwing shit everywhere, and then declaring politicians are all dirty. 

That’s how some Trump supporters justify their loyalty.  They say Trump is doing what they all do (ignoring evidence to the contrary or claiming the lack of evidence as proof of wrongdoing) but doesn’t conceal his actions because he’s “not a politician”.

[Jace, Extat]

6 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I very much do not care. Being drafted is still not a fucking excuse. Motherfucker we settled this, "I was just following orders" is not an excuse. "I had no choice" is not an excuse. You can tell me to read all the fucking books in the world, but this isn't an abstract thing to me, this is my life. I'm not an outsider looking in passing judgement, I'm an insider telling you how it fucking works. Telling you what I was told when I entered the military, and what I'll be telling those under my command when I receive my full commission.

 

It sounds to me like you're projecting your own disgusting rationalizations onto anyone who's ever taken up arms. Voluntarily or otherwise.

I find that offensive to the very idea of shared humanity. Ascribing the worst impulses of a few to the many is textbook dehumanization. Just because you're doing it to yourself as well doesn't make it right.

[DMC]

19 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I think this Ukraine controversy is going to take Biden down with it.  Even though there's little/no evidence of actual wrongdoing, Trump's main defense (and I've already heard multiple conservatives I know parroting it) is that "Biden witheld aid for political purposes too!" Which is trueish, except that Biden was witholding aid to fight against corruption and Trump was doing it to actively sabotage an American political campaign. 

I'm inclined to agree this is generally bad for Biden, but this has the potential for some post hoc fallacy.  Who's to say Biden wasn't going down regardless?  While no one's looking, Warren just technically (within the MoE) pulled ahead of Biden 27-25 in a Quinnipiac poll, only the second non-Change Research national poll that Biden's not leading in since he announced.  And I doubt the Ukraine story had much impact on those respondents.

Further, there is a flip side to this argument.  This is gonna focus coverage on Biden to an extent it could help drown out any chance any of the second or third tier candidates have in breaking out (again).  And right now, the first tier is looking like solely Biden and Warren, so the impeachment proceedings could help affect an accelerated narrowing to a Biden/Warren showdown, which I personally think would be unfortunate, but I'm sure both campaigns' staffs would take in an instant right now.

[Which Tyler]

38 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah the US military's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan is not comparable to the Nazis.  Spare me the undergrad Arendt and banality of evil essay quotes.

Sorry, I was assuming that everyone here had a reading/comprehension capacity beyond that of my 9 year old nephew. If you want to say that you genuinely thought that I was calling the American (or British, or Canadian or...) military Nazis - then you're lying; simply lying.

No-one's saying any such thing, of course. Drawing a parallel that volunteering to join an organisation that you know full well does X means that you have shown support for X. Protest that it doesn't all you like but actions speak louder than words.

 

Equally, someone can espouse all the liberal ideologies they like. If they then go and join the Republican party, and vote Republican - then they're Republican. If you voluntarily join the military, then you are complicit with what you know the military does.

I just don't have a handy quote for that.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

31 minutes ago, DMC said:

Hohkay then, you continue going around patting yourself on the back with your offensively self-righteous but semantically accurate definition implying everyone that signs up for the armed forces is doing so to help kill muslims.  You're truly changing the world with such courage.

I come from a military family, and was on track for Navy OCS before Amy offered me a job.

Anyways, my cousin is a psychologist in the Army, working almost exclusively with vets suffering from PTSD. The idea of her killing anyone is hilarious. She’s a glorified crazy cat lady.

Arguing that everyone in the military, and that means EVERY military, is signing up to kill people is ridiculous. Full stop. You can question what they did in hindsight, but the initial act is done for myriad reasons. And news alert, a majority of vets think Iraq and Afghanistan were mistakes.

And lastly, if we’re talking taxes, just remember that your governments took our blood money too. You are complicit as well.

[Mexal]

“Transcript” released. It’s not a transcript but a memo of notes captured.

 

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

No-one's saying any such thing, of course. Drawing a parallel that volunteering to join an organisation that you know full well does X means that you have shown support for X. Protest that it doesn't all you like but actions speak louder than words.

Again, only in the most infantile of definitions.  Somebody running for Congress is volunteering to join the federal government.  Stipulating that means they support jailing child refugees by getting elected to the seat is classically fallacious guilt by association.  Maybe someone is motivated to sign up for the armed forces because they want to try to make sure there's less indiscriminate killing of civilians.  Casting every armed service member in the same light and claiming "well it's technically accurate" takes a special and plainly distasteful type of ethical arrogance.

And raising the Nazi comparison is obviously always a loaded analogy.  But sorry, I was assuming everyone here had an intellect.

[Which Tyler]

You know perfectly well what is being said and what is being meant.

But hey - feel free to pretend otherwise.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

You know perfectly well what is being said and what is being meant.

But hey - feel free to pretend otherwise.

Uh..what?  Ok then.