Could this be Tyrek? Or do you have another idea?

[Rufus Snow]

I keep wondering why this body turned up in the HoBaW, and why it should happen to be whilst Arya was The Blind Girl (obviously so the author could skip giving us an easy identification... ) But I wonder if it could be Tyrek:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Blind Girl

One man had died at the feet of the Stranger, a single candle flickering above him. She could feel its heat, and the scent that it gave off tickled her nose. The candle burned with a dark red flame, she knew; for those with eyes, the corpse would have seemed awash in a ruddy glow. Before summoning the serving men to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young. She wondered what had brought him here to seek the gift of death. Dying bravos oft found their way to the House of Black and White, to hasten their ends, but this man had no wounds that she could find.

<<snip>>

The corpses were laid out in the vault. The blind girl went to work in the dark, stripping the dead of boots and clothes and other possessions, emptying their purses and counting out their coins. Telling one coin from another by touch alone was one of the first things the waif had taught her, after they took away her eyes. The Braavosi coins were old friends; she need only brush her fingertips across their faces to recognize them. Coins from other lands and cities were harder, especially those from far away. Volantene honors were most common, little coins no bigger than a penny with a crown on one side and a skull on the other. Lysene coins were oval and showed a naked woman. Other coins had ships stamped onto them, or elephants, or goats. The Westerosi coins showed a king's head on the front and a dragon on the back.

The old woman had no purse, no wealth at all but for a ring on one thin finger. On the handsome man she found four golden dragons out of Westeros. She was running the ball of her thumb across the most worn of them, trying to decide which king it showed, when she heard the door opening softly behind her.

 

 

The choice of altar - the Stranger - plus the presence of dragons hints at a Westerosi origin for this man. Arya notes he is young, considering a bravo as one possibility. We know bravos are often teenagers, so Tyrek, who should be fourteen or fifteen by this time could be mistaken for a bravo, by touch at least. The 'dark red' flame, plus the 'golden' dragons give us Lannister colours (even though The Blind Girl could see neither, she still 'knew' those facts) and we also have seen that some Lannisters have curly hair (Tyrek's hair has not been described). Tyrek's mother was a Marbrand, so the 'ruddy glow' could also hint in that direction, too.

So, I guess he had to turn up whilst Arya was blind because either a) she would have recognised him, or b) the reader would have recognised him if Arya had been able to see and describe him. It's slim evidence for Tyrek, but I expect Arya would have recognised him at least as 'King Robert's young squire' from the journey south to KL.

But of course, I'd also be delighted to hear if anyone else has any theories as to who this dead body was in life. I'm sure he is significant, on Checkov's gun grounds if nothing else.

[kissdbyfire]

We actually do learn that Tyrek has (had?) long curly hair. That said, I don’t think they were already Robert’s squires when he went to Winterfell, but rather were appointed later. 

I can’t quote it at the moment, but have a look at the scene in an Eddard chapter before the Hand’s Tourney in AGoT. There’s a description of Tyrek’s hair there. But also, the way Ned looks and thinks about them, it feels (to me) like he’s not that familiar w/ either one, which seems to suggest that they weren’t on the trip north. I may be forgetting earlier mentions though, or later ones explaining when they got appointed, happens often! 

[Rufus Snow]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

We actually do learn that Tyrek has (had?) long curly hair. That said, I don’t think they were already Robert’s squires when he went to Winterfell, but rather were appointed later. 

I can’t quote it at the moment, but have a look at the scene in an Eddard chapter before the Hand’s Tourney in AGoT. There’s a description of Tyrek’s hair there. But also, the way Ned looks and thinks about them, it feels (to me) like he’s not that familiar w/ either one, which seems to suggest that they weren’t on the trip north. I may be forgetting earlier mentions though, or later ones explaining when they got appointed, happens often! 

Thanks for that, and I also came across a quote posted in the 'Wow, I never noticed' thread by @Lady Dacey :

Quote

Tyrek Lannister: One [squire] was Sansa's age, with long golden curls. AGOT, Eddard VII

 

So that adds another data point....

[Aebram]

Four dragons is quite a sum.  So this man is not only young, handsome, curly-haired, and Westerosi; he's also wealthy.  Another box checked for him being a Lannister.

But there are quite a few unanswered questions.  What's Tyrek doing in Braavos?  How did he die?  He had no wounds; and the text doesn't mention anything that would indicate a sickness.  That suggests that he was poisoned, or more likely he poisoned himself with a drink from the Temple pool.  With this story line, we'll never know.  Seems kind of unsatisfying. 

Darn it, now I want to re-read all the books, to see if there's another missing person that this could be.

Of course, his face is now hanging on a wall somewhere in the Temple.  Maybe some POV character will put it on and get a flash of revealing memories.

[kissdbyfire]

18 minutes ago, Aebram said:

and Westerosi

I think assuming he’s from Westeros just because he was carrying westerosi coins is a bit of a leap.

[corbon]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think assuming he’s from Westeros just because he was carrying westerosi coins is a bit of a leap.

But very in-world.
After all, the presence of an old coin from the Reach is enough to virtually prove a spy was in the pay of the Tyrells...

[Nevets]

13 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

But of course, I'd also be delighted to hear if anyone else has any theories as to who this dead body was in life. I'm sure he is significant, on Checkov's gun grounds if nothing else.

I doubt it's Tyrek.  I think Tyrek himself is a Chekhov's Gun.  His disappearance has been mentioned too often for it not to have some importance, and this would be an exceedingly anticlimactic solution to the mystery.  I don't know why he would commit suicide either.  He wasn't injured, nor had he run out of money.  I am also disinclined to believe it was him based on his hair.  If he is in hiding, he would logically take steps to change his appearance, and his hair would be the first thing to change.

I don't know who it could be.  The Westeros coins are interesting, but we don't know how widespread their circulation is.  I think that he was found by the Stranger is more interesting though.  It certainly suggests Westeros origin.   The only other young Westerosi in Braavos that I can think of is some Frey children that have been fostered out, but I can't see why they would be there either.

[The Sleeper]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think assuming he’s from Westeros just because he was carrying westerosi coins is a bit of a leap.

Dying by the Stranger makes it less of a leap. 

Calling this guy a Westerosi noblemen is an assumption but not a stretch. The little we know about him would need to be explained away if he were otherwise. 

And we have a prominent case of a missing adolescent with those characteristics. Sure, it could be anyone, but nothing prevents him from being Tyrek. 

Regardless, I think he was placed there as more than a setting for Arya's work. That is, his face is going to be of use to Arya. 

Another possibility that occurs to me would be for him to be a Westerling. The elder, probably. I don't recall the younger's fate being spelled out, but either of them would have found themselves as unwitting traitors and turncloaks, a very awkward position to be in socially, which could lead to them seeking exile and eventually committing suicide. 

The timeline does not seem to allow this for the younger, but I think it makes sense for the elder if he survived the Red Wedding. 

[rotting sea cow]

18 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I keep wondering why this body turned up in the HoBaW, and why it should happen to be whilst Arya was The Blind Girl (obviously so the author could skip giving us an easy identification... ) But I wonder if it could be Tyrek

Well, it is a definite possibility. If he is Tyrek, few questions arise.

1) What did it happen after he disappeared?

2) How did he get there?

3) Why didn't he use the money to get himself to KL or Lannisport?

4) Why did our author decide to "kill him"?

The latest is the most important question. People have theorized that Varys kidnapped Tyrek and shipped him to Pentos to his fat friend. It is very possible that they wanted to use Tyrek as a pawn in the Lannister succession as well as denunciation of Cersei and her children.

Did something go amiss with these plans? Or did they realize that he was not really useful? Or did Tyrek escape? Were his experiences so horrible that he decided to kill himself?

Or is just that our beloved author trying to close minor plots that are going nowhere?

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

But very in-world.
After all, the presence of an old coin from the Reach is enough to virtually prove a spy was in the pay of the Tyrells...

I thought we had heard of coins from different places being found in Westeros and vice-versa before? I could be wrong... 

Also, wasn’t the giveaway w/ the old coin from the Reach the fact that it was very old? 

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Dying by the Stranger makes it less of a leap. 

Agree.

[Rufus Snow]

8 hours ago, Aebram said:

Of course, his face is now hanging on a wall somewhere in the Temple.  Maybe some POV character will put it on and get a flash of revealing memories.

 

3 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Regardless, I think he was placed there as more than a setting for Arya's work. That is, his face is going to be of use to Arya. 

That's a good angle I hadn't considered, his face being used later.... that could be a good way into the mystery of who he is.

53 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

If he is Tyrek, few questions arise.

1) What did it happen after he disappeared?

2) How did he get there?

3) Why didn't he use the money to get himself to KL or Lannisport?

4) Why did our author decide to "kill him"?

Absolutely. I think #3 is the only one I'd hazard a guess at - he's run away, can't face going back to the cradle of his bride, fears he may be in danger from Cersei, and has run out of other ideas, more importantly has run out of hope for a better life elsewhere. But it is only a guess

 

8 hours ago, Aebram said:

Darn it, now I want to re-read all the books, to see if there's another missing person that this could be

Heh, heh, my evil plan bears fruit

[Lluewhyn]

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, it is a definite possibility. If he is Tyrek, few questions arise.

4) Why did our author decide to "kill him"?

The latest is the most important question. People have theorized that Varys kidnapped Tyrek and shipped him to Pentos to his fat friend. It is very possible that they wanted to use Tyrek as a pawn in the Lannister succession as well as denunciation of Cersei and her children.

Did something go amiss with these plans? Or did they realize that he was not really useful? Or did Tyrek escape? Were his experiences so horrible that he decided to kill himself?

Or is just that our beloved author trying to close minor plots that are going nowhere?

 

 

Tyrek is one of those plotlines that makes me curious where GRRM was going. It would be easier to think he had an idea in ACOK but changed his mind later, but Tyrek gets brought up several times over the next few books. There's the theory that Varys will "use" Tyrek somehow to discredit the Lannisters, but I'm not sure how it's going to work in practice, especially since there's no need to additionally discredit the Lannisters in the event of a Targaryen restoration.

GRRM killing Tyrek off this way to close the plotline seems very anti-climactic and unsatisfying though. I think it would be better to leave the disappearance unexplained in this case.

[John Suburbs]

On 9/24/2019 at 10:33 AM, Rufus Snow said:

I keep wondering why this body turned up in the HoBaW, and why it should happen to be whilst Arya was The Blind Girl (obviously so the author could skip giving us an easy identification... ) But I wonder if it could be Tyrek:
 

 

The choice of altar - the Stranger - plus the presence of dragons hints at a Westerosi origin for this man. Arya notes he is young, considering a bravo as one possibility. We know bravos are often teenagers, so Tyrek, who should be fourteen or fifteen by this time could be mistaken for a bravo, by touch at least. The 'dark red' flame, plus the 'golden' dragons give us Lannister colours (even though The Blind Girl could see neither, she still 'knew' those facts) and we also have seen that some Lannisters have curly hair (Tyrek's hair has not been described). Tyrek's mother was a Marbrand, so the 'ruddy glow' could also hint in that direction, too.

So, I guess he had to turn up whilst Arya was blind because either a) she would have recognised him, or b) the reader would have recognised him if Arya had been able to see and describe him. It's slim evidence for Tyrek, but I expect Arya would have recognised him at least as 'King Robert's young squire' from the journey south to KL.

But of course, I'd also be delighted to hear if anyone else has any theories as to who this dead body was in life. I'm sure he is significant, on Checkov's gun grounds if nothing else.

This theory pops up every once in a while. My biggest problem is what would his life have paid for in the HoBaW? My understanding on the way it works is that if you want the FM to kill someone, you have to give them something of commensurate value -- gold (or a dragon egg) if you have it, a life if it is yours to give, or even if your cause is just. So I could see someone buying an FM with the gold and other coins, but Tyrek's life was not something that anyone but Tyrek could give. So why, after disappearing from KL during the riot, would Tyrek want to give his own life to the FM, and whose death is it paying for?

[Rufus Snow]

57 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

This theory pops up every once in a while. My biggest problem is what would his life have paid for in the HoBaW? My understanding on the way it works is that if you want the FM to kill someone, you have to give them something of commensurate value -- gold (or a dragon egg) if you have it, a life if it is yours to give, or even if your cause is just. So I could see someone buying an FM with the gold and other coins, but Tyrek's life was not something that anyone but Tyrek could give. So why, after disappearing from KL during the riot, would Tyrek want to give his own life to the FM, and whose death is it paying for?

Not everything in the HoBaW is about contracting a hit by the Faceless Men. Some people just go there to receive the gift. People come in mortally wounded and want a quick out, some come in old and frail and ready to give up the ghost, no doubt there are other reasons, too. I was thinking more along those lines for this young man (regardless of who he is). For some reason he prayed for the gift - for himself. But I doubt we'll find out why...

[corbon]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I thought we had heard of coins from different places being found in Westeros and vice-versa before? I could be wrong... 

Ok, I thought it was obvious. Perhaps I should have /s. Or .

Yes, the idea that the presence of coins from a certain place show that person is from that place is, literally, Cersei level stupidity. Thus very 'in-world'. Varys plays with Cersei's head and helps her self-destruct her key alliance by leaving a Highgarden coin in Rugen's secret stash when he leaves. 
This is what an intelligent person does to mess with the minds of the foolish, in-world.

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, wasn’t the giveaway w/ the old coin from the Reach the fact that it was very old? 

No. It being old, thin, and worn clued Cersei that it was not a 'normal' gold Dragon, but its only truly relevant property to her was its origin.

Quote

Gold, yes, but the moment Cersei took it she could tell that it was wrong. Too small, she thought, too thin. The coin was old and worn. On one side was a king's face in profile, on the other side the imprint of a hand. "This is no dragon," she said.

"No," Qyburn agreed. "It dates from before the Conquest, Your Grace. The king is Garth the Twelfth, and the hand is the sigil of House Gardener."

Of Highgarden. Cersei closed her hand around the coin. What treachery is this? Mace Tyrell had been one of Tyrion's judges, and had called loudly for his death. Was that some ploy? Could he have been plotting with the Imp all the while, conspiring at Father's death? With Tywin Lannister in his grave, Lord Tyrell was an obvious choice to be King's Hand, but even so . . . "You will not speak of this with anyone," she commanded.

 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, corbon said:

Ok, I thought it was obvious. Perhaps I should have /s. Or .

I suppose my "sacastometre" was turned off? So odd, since I tend to use it so often!

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Not everything in the HoBaW is about contracting a hit by the Faceless Men. Some people just go there to receive the gift. People come in mortally wounded and want a quick out, some come in old and frail and ready to give up the ghost, no doubt there are other reasons, too. I was thinking more along those lines for this young man (regardless of who he is). For some reason he prayed for the gift - for himself. But I doubt we'll find out why...

Yeah, but even this kind of leans against it being Tyrek. Assuming that his mortal wounds were suffered during the riot, he then boards a ship to sail across the Narrow Sea just to give his life to a death cult that he doesn't even worship? Or if he was dragged their against his will, he then somehow manages to escape despite his mortal wounds (or maybe he wasn't wounded at all?) to give his life in exchange for revenge on his captors/torturers? Just seems like a bit much for a teenage boy born and raised in the westerlands who has no known attachment to Braavos or the HoBaW.

[Lady Dacey]

This is an interesting notion. I don't think we can confirm it or deny it, but I like it. I mean can you imagine if Arya were to don his face, the memories she could witness?? 

@Rufus Snow this quite recent topic may interest you: 

 

 

[Aebram]

Excuse me for  quoting myself, but (as Dacey just mentioned while I was typing this), there is another thread running about this, or at least there was; it may have ended. Something I wrote there is relevant to where this discussion is heading.

Quote

Growing up in House Lannister, he [Tyrek] had a cousin who became Queen, and an uncle who was Warden of the West and Hand to a few Kings ... and some of the Kings were his cousins (or nephews?  Sorry, I always have trouble with those).  But he was a little too far down the line of succession to have high status himself; and after his father died, he may have pretty-much lived as a ward of Tywin. His family made him a squire to drunken King Robert, and later they married  him to the infant "Lady" Hayford.

With all that in mind, it's possible that he felt manipulated and resentful towards his House, and decided to escape somehow. But the timing raises other questions. He disappeared during the riot in King's Landing, I doubt that he could have engineered that. Perhaps he was already planning an escape and seized the opportunity. 

Here's a thought:  maybe he actually disappeared before the riot, not during it.  He knew  that half the Court would go to the docks to see Myrcella's departure.   He secretly arranged passage out of Kings Landing on another ship. He slipped away from the crowd while everyone was watching Myrcella; and since he wasn't especially important, no one noticed until later.  The timing of the riot was just a bit of good luck for him. It gave everyone a false suspicion  about what happened to him.

[White Night]

What's more puzzling than his identity is why he committed suicide. Suicide as far as we know is never done in Westeros. There are rumoures of some characters committing suicide but never evidence to pack it up. Even in Essos, in the mines of Valyria the slaves were praying for death not actually doing the deed themselves. The closest thing to suicide we see in the novels is of those old, sick or wounded in the HoB&W that come to hasten their death. So why would a physically healthy Westerosi kill himself in a foreign country.

 

There are instances of people sacrificing themselves for a cause such as Qorin Halfhand, so maybe he was offering his body as a sacrifice to the temple? but that doesn't make sense either