An Evil Name

[White Night]

 

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The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale  of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said, a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound the Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who rules Bear Island before the Ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

 

 

 

Although all records of the Night’s King appear to have been destroyed south of the wall, the same cannot be said of north of the Wall. You’d expect there to be stories similar to those of Old Nan’s told by the wildlings to their children. For the wildling to unite under one King and fight on the side of the kneelers it must had been a dangerous situation in which they found themselves. No doubt stories of that event spread among the wildlings and became a part of their history and lore. 

 

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“I’m Jon Snow.”
She flinched. “An evil name.”

 

What is perceived as evil by a culture that doesn't flinch at rape, theft, kidnapping and murder must be something drastically worse. If the bastard surname is not in itself evil, therefore, the whole name, Jon Snow is. What if the two are connected? The only other instance in the show where the wildling regard something as evil is  Craster and his incest and sacrifice to the others. Val even calls Craster’s son Monster.

 

Allow me to tell a story of my own.

 

There was once a Stark LC who chased and caught a female Other. He gave her his seed for the others can’t produce on their own. For reasons of either diplomatic peace or personal vanity he proclaimed himself a king and her his queen. They sacrificed their baby boys to the others by throwing them down the well in the Nightfort. and kept the girls for breading.

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Far, far, far below, they heard the sound as the stone found water. It wasn’t a splash , not truly. It was more a gulp , as if whatever was below had opened a quivering gelid mouth to swallow Hodor’s stone. 

 

After thirteen years his first daughter flowered and he decided to breed with her to keep the bloodline as pure as possible. When words of this reached the two Kings north and south of the wall, perhaps with increased sightings of others, they united to end this abomination once and for all. They did. Afterwards they discovered how he'd been giving his seed to the others. They also managed to save a baby boy from being thrown down the well. Horror struck the Stark King and he had no option but to bring the 'little monster' down with him to Winterfell. To ensure that the horrible events would not repeat themselves, he called his baby nephew Jon Snow and raised him as his bastard. He deleted all records of his brother the Night's King and swore all his lords to keep the identity of the Night's king hidden. For this not a merely due to shame of a family scandal but the fear that the little monster or his offspring might resume their father's practice if they were aware of their identify and unique blood.

 

Several years later, maybe after one or two generations of Starks. After all those who witnessed the event of the Night’s King had perished along with their secrets. At some point, the new King of the Winter found himself in need of an heir and maybe for reasons of war or sickness there were non except his bastard brother Jon Snow or one of his offspring. The King then legitimises him and the throne eventually passes to him. Unbeknownst to the Starks, the blood of the Other has infiltrated them. A blue rose, like the one Bael the Bard and Rheygar left; the seed of the enemy. The blood of the Other brings with it other magical abilities such as warging and greensight. This could explain the numerous ice and cold references to the Starks, aside from the mundane reason of the location of their habitat. After all, this is a fantasy novel.

 

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“Never ask me about Jon,” Ned said, cold as ice. 

 

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“I should have thought that heat ill suits you Starks,” Littlefinger said. “Here in the south, they say you are all made of ice, and melt when you ride below the Neck.” 

 

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Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell. 

 

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“he was a Stark of Winterfell, and his grief and his rage froze hard inside him.”

 

 

This also adds flavour to fascinating stories of Stark legends such as Edrick Snowbeard, the Hungry Wolf and … Ice Eyes. Ice Eyes, who’s actual name was Brandon Stark, was the king who recaptured the wolves’ den from the slavers during a cruel long winter. The early Stark Kings were hard cruel men who brought the season with them, and their house words were not a prudent reminder but a chilling threat. Winter is Coming, and woe to those who provoke the Kings of Winter.

 

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For a moment Eddard Stark was filled with a terrible sense of foreboding. He looked at the stone figures all around them, breathed deep in the chill silence of the crypt. He could feel the eyes of the dead. They were all listening, he knew. And winter was coming. 

 

[John Suburbs]

Wow, a crazy thought just hit me: what if the ice creatures we've seen so far are not the actual Others but the descendants of the NK and his queen? Maybe we have yet to see the real Others, and that is the terror in the LoaW that Bran saw in his coma dream?

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, White Night said:

 

 

 

Although all records of the Night’s King appear to have been destroyed south of the wall, the same cannot be said of north of the Wall. You’d expect there to be stories similar to those of Old Nan’s told by the wildlings to their children. For the wildling to unite under one King and fight on the side of the kneelers it must had been a dangerous situation in which they found themselves. No doubt stories of that event spread among the wildlings and became a part of their history and lore. 

 

 

What is perceived as evil by a culture that doesn't flinch at rape, theft, kidnapping and murder must be something drastically worse. If the bastard surname is not in itself evil, therefore, the whole name, Jon Snow is. What if the two are connected? The only other instance in the show where the wildling regard something as evil is  Craster and his incest and sacrifice to the others. Val even calls Craster’s son Monster.

 

Allow me to tell a story of my own.

 

There was once a Stark LC who chased and caught a female Other. He gave her his seed for the others can’t produce on their own. For reasons of either diplomatic peace or personal vanity he proclaimed himself a king and her his queen. They sacrificed their baby boys to the others by throwing them down the well in the Nightfort. and kept the girls for breading.

 

After thirteen years his first daughter flowered and he decided to breed with her to keep the bloodline as pure as possible. When words of this reached the two Kings north and south of the wall, perhaps with increased sightings of others, they united to end this abomination once and for all. They did. Afterwards they discovered how he'd been giving his seed to the others. They also managed to save a baby boy from being thrown down the well. Horror struck the Stark King and he had no option but to bring the 'little monster' down with him to Winterfell. To ensure that the horrible events would not repeat themselves, he called his baby nephew Jon Snow and raised him as his bastard. He deleted all records of his brother the Night's King and swore all his lords to keep the identity of the Night's king hidden. For this not a merely due to shame of a family scandal but the fear that the little monster or his offspring might resume their father's practice if they were aware of their identify and unique blood.

 

Several years later, maybe after one or two generations of Starks. After all those who witnessed the event of the Night’s King had perished along with their secrets. At some point, the new King of the Winter found himself in need of an heir and maybe for reasons of war or sickness there were non except his bastard brother Jon Snow or one of his offspring. The King then legitimises him and the throne eventually passes to him. Unbeknownst to the Starks, the blood of the Other has infiltrated them. A blue rose, like the one Bael the Bard and Rheygar left; the seed of the enemy. The blood of the Other brings with it other magical abilities such as warging and greensight. This could explain the numerous ice and cold references to the Starks, aside from the mundane reason of the location of their habitat. After all, this is a fantasy novel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This also adds flavour to fascinating stories of Stark legends such as Edrick Snowbeard, the Hungry Wolf and … Ice Eyes. Ice Eyes, who’s actual name was Brandon Stark, was the king who recaptured the wolves’ den from the slavers during a cruel long winter. The early Stark Kings were hard cruel men who brought the season with them, and their house words were not a prudent reminder but a chilling threat. Winter is Coming, and woe to those who provoke the Kings of Winter.

 

 

Excellent theory and wonderfully presented.  I too suspect a sinister history to the Starks.  Jon will come back and become NK 2.0.  Who will play the role of the ice queen?  Val.  
 

The NK and the NQ were sacrificing to keep the Others away.  Not at all dissimilar to the free cities bribing the Dothraki not to sack their cities.  The brotherhood went along with it because the sacrifice kept the enemy away.  Know who else did this? Craster.  For what could be more precious than the sacrifice of the innocent.  The offering of an innocent who also happens to be your own child.  

[White Night]

54 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Excellent theory and wonderfully presented.  I too suspect a sinister history to the Starks.  Jon will come back and become NK 2.0.  Who will play the role of the ice queen?  Val.  
 

The NK and the NQ were sacrificing to keep the Others away.  Not at all dissimilar to the free cities bribing the Dothraki not to sack their cities.  The brotherhood went along with it because the sacrifice kept the enemy away.  Know who else did this? Craster.  For what could be more precious than the sacrifice of the innocent.  The offering of an innocent who also happens to be your own child.  

Right? The recent lords of Winterfell have been mainly on the pacifist side; Eddard, his lord father and the king who knelt. Yet the older kings are constantly described as hard, cruel and vengeful. 

 

I think the Night's King was the hero of his own story but unfortunately history is written, or in this case told, by the the victors. His side of the story perished with him, but the trees remember. 

[Melifeather]

While I'm with ya in believing we haven't been told the whole truth and nothing but the truth with regards to the Starks, whatever they were doing was not like what Craster was doing. Yes, the story claims the Nights King and his Queen were sacrificing to the Others, which is how the reader makes the connection to Craster, but Craster is sacrificing to "get right with the gods". His reason: because his blood is black.

Craster worships the old gods like most all people of First Men descent do, but not all First Men sacrifice their infant sons, so something else is going on. I believe he's sacrificing in order to atone for some great sin. What kinds of sins would offend the old gods? We know "guest right" is important to offer visitors that request it, and kinslaying is one of the worst crimes. You might say Craster is a kinslayer by giving his sons to the wood, but he doesn't view it that way. He views it as holy much like the Jews once did when they sacrificed lambs upon an altar to atone for sins. Deuteronomy 15:19-23 in particular dictates that firstborn livestock must be sacrificed. 

Craster's father was a man of the Watch, but he broke his oath by fathering Craster, and then denied he broke his oath by refusing Craster as  his son when the mother brought him to the Wall. Oathbreaking is a sin against the old gods, making his blood cursed and "black". All the men of the Watch are said to have "black blood", so Craster inherited this black blood from his father, but because it's also "cursed" he feels he must sacrifice to atone for his inherited sin.

Why should Ygritte care if Jon's name is the same as the Nights King if his greatest sin was sacrificing to white walkers? How does that affect Ygritte or any of the wildlings? Lets refocus the situation. What if the wildlings are the Others? Don't you think the wildlings would hate the name of the man responsible for imprisoning their ancestors behind the Wall in the first place? What if there was a situation in Winterfell similar to how it is at the end of Dance? We've got Ramsay Snow legitimized and taking the name of Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell. What if a long time ago Jon Snow was legitimized and became Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, and the trueborn son of Winterfell was imprisoned beyond the Wall with all of his supporters?

[ravenous reader]

4 hours ago, White Night said:

Allow me to tell a story of my own.

Oh, but is it really all *your own*..? 

"Blood Of The Other"... Really?  (And that's not the only recognizable phrase that leaps off the page). 

It will not surprise you to hear I've heard that peculiarly poetic styling before... Writers have voices like fingerprints, you know -- and ravens have excellent hearing (and sharp beaks...).   

P.S. The idea of the sacrifice being thrown down the well -- that, in contrast, *is* your original idea -- is a good one, and I like it.  Fits well with the parallel of Moon Door (bloody blue) execution and Melara falling down a well as blood magic payment. 

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Excellent theory and wonderfully presented.  

I agree it's an excellent theory (I may even have helped develop the ideas behind the eponymous essay series! )... 

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The Blood of the Other
–  Prelude to a Chill
I: A Baelful Bard & a Promised Prince
II: The Stark that Brings the Dawn
III: Eldric Shadowchaser
IV: Prose Eddard
V: Ice Moon Apocalypse

Here's a link to @LmL's original:

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2018/02/24/a-baelful-bard-and-a-promised-prince/

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The NK and the NQ were sacrificing to keep the Others away.  Not at all dissimilar to the free cities bribing the Dothraki not to sack their cities.  The brotherhood went along with it because the sacrifice kept the enemy away.  Know who else did this? Craster.  For what could be more precious than the sacrifice of the innocent.  The offering of an innocent who also happens to be your own child.  

Good points.

[White Night]

40 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh, but is it really all *your own*..? 

"Blood Of The Other"... Really?  (And that's not the only recognizable phrase that leaps off the page). 

It will not surprise you to hear I've heard that peculiarly poetic styling before... Writers have voices like fingerprints, you know -- and ravens have excellent hearing (and sharp beaks...).   

P.S. The idea of the sacrifice being thrown down the well -- that, in contrast, *is* your original idea -- is a good one, and I like it.  Fits well with the parallel of Moon Door (bloody blue) execution and Melara falling down a well as blood magic payment. 

I agree it's an excellent theory (I may even have helped develop the ideas behind the eponymous essay series! )... 

Here's a link to @LmL's original:

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2018/02/24/a-baelful-bard-and-a-promised-prince/

Good points.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I tried to read some of the posts on your blog just now but i regret to say that style of analysis is not for me, but maybe other users will find if informative.

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, White Night said:

Right? The recent lords of Winterfell have been mainly on the pacifist side; Eddard, his lord father and the king who knelt. Yet the older kings are constantly described as hard, cruel and vengeful. 

 

I think the Night's King was the hero of his own story but unfortunately history is written, or in this case told, by the the victors. His side of the story perished with him, but the trees remember. 

Yes.  He was doing something terrible based on his belief of it being necessary.  Like Mellissandre trying to barbecue the little bastards of Robert's.  It may have worked or maybe it was all for nothing.  I can see Jon crossing over to the dark side if he believes the Lannisters and the Freys killed his sisters.  He has a vengeful nature and he might freely choose to become the new NK.  

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

While I'm with ya in believing we haven't been told the whole truth and nothing but the truth with regards to the Starks, whatever they were doing was not like what Craster was doing.

It could very well have been exactly the same.  They struck a pact with the white walkers in exchange for dominion over the north.  

[White Night]

4 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Yes.  He was doing something terrible based on his belief of it being necessary.  Like Mellissandre trying to barbecue the little bastards of Robert's.  It may have worked or maybe it was all for nothing.  I can see Jon crossing over to the dark side if he believes the Lannisters and the Freys killed his sisters.  He has a vengeful nature and he might freely choose to become the new NK.  

GRRM keeps illustrating that people who come back from death lose some of their souls along the way. Jon will definitely not come back as himself. I can see him turning bitter. I wish he'd turn to the other side and bring a miserable cold death on Dany and her dragons but, alas, his destiny seems that of a conciliator. According to Dany's visions in the HotU he may even marry her. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 hours ago, White Night said:

What is perceived as evil by a culture that doesn't flinch at rape, theft, kidnapping and murder must be something drastically worse.

Or something drastically different. 

9 hours ago, White Night said:

If the bastard surname is not in itself evil, therefore, the whole name, Jon Snow is. What if the two are connected? The only other instance in the show where the wildling regard something as evil is  Craster and his incest and sacrifice to the others. Val even calls Craster’s son Monster.

It’s simpler than that. What’s evil is the snow itself, the cold that comes and kills and raises your dead against you. 

Regarding the bold, yes. And that is, in part, how we learn that Craster doesn’t worship the Old Gods. Listen to what Ygritte tells Jon about incest; to the free folk, marrying someone from your village/clan is icky, because, well, it is.

As to Craster’s “gods”, here’s what we learn:

ACoK, Jon III

“Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?”
“For the baby, not for me. If it’s a girl, that’s not so bad, she’ll grow a few years and he’ll marry her. But Nella says it’s to be a boy, and she’s had six and knows these things. He gives the boys to the gods. Come the white cold, he does, and of late it comes more often. That’s why he started giving them sheep, even though he has a taste for mutton. Only now the sheep’s gone too. Next it will be dogs, till . . . ” She lowered her eyes and stroked her belly.
“What gods?” Jon was remembering that they’d seen no boys in Craster’s Keep, nor men either, save Craster himself.
“The cold gods,” she said. “The ones in the night. The white shadows.”

The Old Gods are never described like this. Plus, we know from Ygritte how the FF feel about Craster and about incest. It’s a case of, 2 + 2 = 4, not 378.

As to the rest of your OP, I don’t really subscribe to it, but it was an interesting read. We will soon know more, it will be interesting, to say the least. 

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[Quoth the raven,]

8 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Wow, a crazy thought just hit me: what if the ice creatures we've seen so far are not the actual Others but the descendants of the NK and his queen? Maybe we have yet to see the real Others, and that is the terror in the LoaW that Bran saw in his coma dream?

That would make the Starks related by blood to the Others.  They are Ice after all.  It would also support the belief many of us have:  Craster is a Stark.  The Others, Starks, and Craster are related by blood.  Craster's children share the same blood as the Others because they are the product of a Craster Stark + Craster Stark joining.  So for Jon to join the Others is a Stark coming home.  The Others coming south are Starks coming home to Winterfell.

[Quoth the raven,]

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It could very well have been exactly the same.  They struck a pact with the white walkers in exchange for dominion over the north.  

The Starks are the bad guys.  I think so.  They cause problems even if unintentional.  I can't wait for the dragons to roast them all.  

[White Night]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

As to the rest of your OP, I don’t really subscribe to it, but it was an interesting read. We will soon know more, it will be interesting, to say the least. 

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

I doubt the story I presented is exactly how it went down thousands of years ago. Jon Snow maybe the name of the Night's King, not his son. It may even be far from the truth. I'm almost positive the Starks and the Others are genetically related, though, and the Night's King plot satisfyingly connects the dots for me. But I'm sure GRRM has a much wilder imagination and is a better story teller. 

 

And thank you

[Aline de Gavrillac]

17 hours ago, White Night said:

 

 

The name is evil because it could have been the name of the 13th commander who later became the Night's King.  The free folk have prophecies of their own that foretell the second coming of this NK and his name is Jon Snow.  He is the reincarnation of the NK.  He will be resurrected by the WW.   The Starks have a pattern of betrayal.  Jon has already betrayed the watch twice.  The third time will be final and he becomes the next Night's King.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, White Night said:

I'm almost positive the Starks and the Others are genetically related,

Maybe. Or maybe it's those First Men families who felt shafted by the Pact. 

[John Suburbs]

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

That would make the Starks related by blood to the Others.  They are Ice after all.  It would also support the belief many of us have:  Craster is a Stark.  The Others, Starks, and Craster are related by blood.  Craster's children share the same blood as the Others because they are the product of a Craster Stark + Craster Stark joining.  So for Jon to join the Others is a Stark coming home.  The Others coming south are Starks coming home to Winterfell.

My own pet theory goes even deeper. The Stark Ice blood comes from the Corpse Queen. At the time they were defeated, the NK and CQ were about to make their latest sacrifice, a little half-human, half-Other/wight boy. As the heir to the NK, he would naturally have inherited all of his previous lands and titles, which I suspect was the Dreadfort. This little creature then discovered he had a unique talent: he could father children on human wives, wait until they come of age, then kill them, skin them (aka, flaying) and then wear their skins in a perfect likeness, except for the eyes which remain pale as morning mist. Then this same boy-creature could continue on as the new lord, eventually marrying into the Stark family and even becoming King of Winter (Brandon Ice-Eyes?) or Lord of Winterfell, for a time.

Right now, of course, this creature is posing as Roose Bolton, but pretty soon he'll make the switch into Ramsay, which is why he had to get rid of Dom and set Ramsay up as his heir, since he can only wear the skins of his own son. So in the next two books, expect Roose to die, and then see if Ramsay doesn't suddenly calm down, start speaking in whispers, and leeching himself.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 9/25/2019 at 7:39 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

That would make the Starks related by blood to the Others.  They are Ice after all.  It would also support the belief many of us have:  Craster is a Stark.  The Others, Starks, and Craster are related by blood.  Craster's children share the same blood as the Others because they are the product of a Craster Stark + Craster Stark joining.  So for Jon to join the Others is a Stark coming home.  The Others coming south are Starks coming home to Winterfell.

The Starks of today are descended from the Nights King and his bride.  It's what made the Starks able to Warg and greensee.  

The NK wasn't sacrificing to buy safety.  He was sacrificing because he changed his religion.  He worshipped the Others and made sacrifices to them.  He betrayed his duties.

[White Night]

 So much mystery surrounds the the Long Night and the formation of the NW. 

Let's first talk about the purpose of the Wall . Jon had had no sense of Ghost when he was in Castle Black and the direwolf was north of the Wall. Jon also mentions that he can't sense Summer ever since Bran and Co went beyond the Wall as well. In addition, Varamyr recalls feeling consumed by fire when he was flying above the wall, which Mel falsely took credit for. If the Wall acts as a barrier against wargs then it suggests humans at the time didn't possess such abilities and it was mostly a defence against the CotF who they were warring with. 

The first question is why there were wildlings North of the wall considering it couldn't have been more than 200 years since the formation of the NW (this is generous estimation. It was most likely around 130 years). If the NW was formed in response to the Long Night, then you'd think no human would set foot that far north because the horrific memories are still somewhat fresh. it makes much more sense to still be a state of war between the First Men and the Children during the rule of the NK. The FM drove the children and the the giants North along with some FM who converted to the old gods and settled with them. The Children not yet defeated heal a human woman using ice magic ( maybe on the condition that she sacrifices her children to them) and plant her near the wall as a Trojan horse. This would explain the 'corpse queen' reference. Her babies would have ice in their blood making them easier to convert to white walkers.

The bottom of the well in the Nightfort is made of weirwood and opens at the recitation of the old vows, suggesting it was built before or during the NK reign and not after. It also implies a cooperation between the NW and the CotF regarding the facilitation of child sacrifice. The babies thrown down the wall were not blood sacrifice to the trees but used for another purpose completely; the creation of the others.

 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, White Night said:

 So much mystery surrounds the the Long Night and the formation of the NW. 

Let's first talk about the purpose of the Wall . Jon had had no sense of Ghost when he was in Castle Black and the direwolf was north of the Wall. Jon also mentions that he can't sense Summer ever since Bran and Co went beyond the Wall as well. In addition, Varamyr recalls feeling consumed by fire when he was flying above the wall, which Mel falsely took credit for. If the Wall acts as a barrier against wargs then it suggests humans at the time didn't possess such abilities and it was mostly a defence against the CotF who they were warring with. 

This is incorrect. The CotF and the FM signed the Pact long before the LN. It is said that the CotF helped build the Wall, in fact. 

12 minutes ago, White Night said:

The first question is why there were wildlings North of the wall considering it couldn't have been more than 200 years since the formation of the NW (this is generous estimation. It was most likely around 130 years). If the NW was formed in response to the Long Night, then you'd think no human would set foot that far north because the horrific memories are still somewhat fresh. it makes much more sense to still be a state of war between the First Men and the Children during the rule of the NK. The FM drove the children and the the giants North along with some FM who converted to the old gods and settled with them. 

According to Martin, it took centuries to build the Wall, and thousands of years for it to reach its current height. So, no one was trapped on the north side of it. 

 

12 minutes ago, White Night said:

The bottom of the well in the Nightfort is made of weirwood and opens at the recitation of the old vows, suggesting it was built before or during the NK reign and not after. It also implies a cooperation between the NW and the CotF regarding the facilitation of child sacrifice. The babies thrown down the wall were not blood sacrifice to the trees but used for another purpose completely; the creation of the others.

 

I don’t recall any textual evidence for any of this. Care to provide some?