An Evil Name

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

15 hours ago, Finley McLeod said:

Jon will come back with the same motivation for revenge that drives Lady Stoneheart.  He might be called Lord Icehart instead of the Nightsking. 

Brandon "Ice Eyes" reborn... i definitely agree the resurrection will change Jon somewhat, maybe making him more wolfish and hot-blooded like Brandon Stark (Ned's brother)

[Jeeves]

The white walkers will raise Jon from the dead.  He will have remnants of his human self because part of him will have avoided the degradation that would normally happen after death because of his link with ghost.  He won't come back human.  Not wholly.  He will come back a wight with an intact mind.  Imagine an angry, unkillable, undead Jon coming back for the Boltons.  His will to take his sister from the Boltons will survive death.  He becomes a walking wight set on a mission to attack the Boltons and the Nights Watch.  Jon and Arya are being prepared to become the alphas of two large wolf packs.  Jon's warg skills will remain intact with his body. 

[Barbrey Dustin]

Jon mismanaged the Night's Watch because he can't control his emotional nature.  The 13 commander was the same.  He didn't intend to corrupt the watch but his lust for this ice lady made him throw all caution to the wind.  Like Jon threw away caution to attempt the Arya extraction mission.  Both commanders did more harm than good to the order they swore to lead. 

[redriver]

10 hours ago, Barbrey Dustin said:

Jon mismanaged the Night's Watch because he can't control his emotional nature.  The 13 commander was the same.  He didn't intend to corrupt the watch but his lust for this ice lady made him throw all caution to the wind.  Like Jon threw away caution to attempt the Arya extraction mission.  Both commanders did more harm than good to the order they swore to lead. 

What Arya extraction mission?

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 10/23/2019 at 6:23 PM, Jeeves said:

The white walkers will raise Jon from the dead.  He will have remnants of his human self because part of him will have avoided the degradation that would normally happen after death because of his link with ghost.  He won't come back human.  Not wholly.  He will come back a wight with an intact mind.  Imagine an angry, unkillable, undead Jon coming back for the Boltons.  His will to take his sister from the Boltons will survive death.  He becomes a walking wight set on a mission to attack the Boltons and the Nights Watch.  Jon and Arya are being prepared to become the alphas of two large wolf packs.  Jon's warg skills will remain intact with his body. 

Jon will be raised and become an Ice Wight but he won't be a complete robot like Weymar Royce.  The Others are hive minded but Jon will have saved part of his consciousness in Ghost.  He will come back and maintain his body while the cold last.  He will die come spring when the ice thaws. 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 10/23/2019 at 10:49 AM, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

Brandon "Ice Eyes" reborn... i definitely agree the resurrection will change Jon somewhat, maybe making him more wolfish and hot-blooded like Brandon Stark (Ned's brother)

Ice Wight Jon will make Brandon look like a cub scout.   Jon was already irrational during his last chapters.  Think how messed up his reasoning will be when he comes back after experiencing death.  He will be Stoneheart level of madness.  I too am of the opinion that he would seek revenge on the Boltons and further do damage to the realm. 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

1 hour ago, King of Heroes said:

Ice Wight Jon will make Brandon look like a cub scout.   Jon was already irrational during his last chapters.  Think how messed up his reasoning will be when he comes back after experiencing death.  He will be Stoneheart level of madness.  I too am of the opinion that he would seek revenge on the Boltons and further do damage to the realm. 

He'll definitely be more ruthless and wolf-like, I'd like to see the Boltons eradicated also, I don't think a mad Ice Wight Jon would be great for the realm though, seems like he could do more harm than good if he becomes like Stoneheart

[kissdbyfire]

25 minutes ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

He'll definitely be more ruthless and wolf-like, I'd like to see the Boltons eradicated also,

Everyone and their dogs most readers want to see the Boltons gone, and it’s pretty much a given that it will happen. It’s a matter of when, not if. Martin is all about shades of grey for the most part, but he does have villains as well. Just like in life, most characters are grey, but we do get a few who are wholly good, same as a few who are rotten to the core. 

25 minutes ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

I don't think a mad Ice Wight Jon would be great for the realm though,

A “mad ice wight Jon” is but a pipe dream a crew of Jon/Stark haters have, nothing else. It not only wouldn’t be good for the realm, but more importantly it wouldn’t be good for the story, since nothing in his arc points to that.

 

25 minutes ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

seems like he could do more harm than good if he becomes like Stoneheart

Again, it would hurt the story more than the realm. And it would take a crappy writer who relies on unseeded shock instead of a coherent story/arc. And that’s absolutely not Martin’s style. Hmmm, sounds familiar?

[Many-Faced Votary]

I would like to point out that Lady Stoneheart is a fire wight, because Lord Beric himself was a fire wight, as confirmed by GRRM himself in the interview through which he introduced this terminology, who "passed the flame of life" to Lady Catelyn's corpse.

We can observe that, although fire wights are not seemingly mindless thralls as ice wights appear to be, they do change after death in various discernible ways. Although Lord Beric seems not to have been affected as much as Catelyn, each resurrection had stripped away more and more of his humanity -- as characterized by moral code and honor, desires, physiological functions, sense of self, and so forth -- and he was ultimately a mere shell of the person he once was. In particular, his single-minded focus on fulfilling Lord Eddard's task of bringing Gregor Clegane to justice reflects Lady Stoneheart's indefatigable hunger for vengeance. From the comparatively little we know of Lady Stoneheart, she furthermore seems to have completely lost empathy and any sense of justice; she has essentially become a different person, if we can even call such a fanatical entity a "person."

Although it would be nonsensical to suggest that the conditions of Cat's death, the period between her death and resurrection (i.e., physical decay reflected by mental decay), and the unprecedented passing of the flame did not play a role in the type of wight she seems to have become, it would be even more ludicrous to posit that Cat might be so adversely affected but Jon wouldn't have changed significantly.

Indeed, that resurrection changes people, and more generally that attempts to defy nature always go wrong, are established as major themes in A Song of Ice and Fire.

It is unlikely that Jon will return to life as anything other than a fire wight, but however he might be resurrected, he will not be unaltered. At the very least, he will demonstrate obsessiveness with respect to the situation at the time of his death.

Lastly, Jon's flawed resurrection would absolutely enhance the story as a whole, as well as his own character arc -- particularly if he is struggling to maintain his humanity or even to exhibit it in spite of other unnatural urges. If anything, only Jon fans blinded by their affection for the character seem to think that that the story could ever unfold otherwise, especially if the author wishes to maintain thematic and stylistic cohesion.

[kissdbyfire]

“Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?”. 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

34 minutes ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

I would like to point out that Lady Stoneheart is a fire wight, because Lord Beric himself was a fire wight, as confirmed by GRRM himself in the interview through which he introduced this terminology, who "passed the flame of life" to Lady Catelyn's corpse.

We can observe that, although fire wights are not seemingly mindless thralls as ice wights appear to be, they do change after death in various discernible ways. Although Lord Beric seems not to have been affected as much as Catelyn, each resurrection had stripped away more and more of his humanity -- as characterized by moral code and honor, desires, physiological functions, sense of self, and so forth -- and he was ultimately a mere shell of the person he once was. In particular, his single-minded focus on fulfilling Lord Eddard's task of bringing Gregor Clegane to justice reflects Lady Stoneheart's indefatigable hunger for vengeance. From the comparatively little we know of Lady Stoneheart, she furthermore seems to have completely lost empathy and any sense of justice; she has essentially become a different person, if we can even call such a fanatical entity a "person."

Although it would be nonsensical to suggest that the conditions of Cat's death, the period between her death and resurrection (i.e., physical decay reflected by mental decay), and the unprecedented passing of the flame did not play a role in the type of wight she seems to have become, it would be even more ludicrous to posit that Cat might be so adversely affected but Jon wouldn't have changed significantly.

Indeed, that resurrection changes people, and more generally that attempts to defy nature always go wrong, are established as major themes in A Song of Ice and Fire.

It is unlikely that Jon will return to life as anything other than a fire wight, but however he might be resurrected, he will not be unaltered. At the very least, he will demonstrate obsessiveness with respect to the situation at the time of his death.

Lastly, Jon's flawed resurrection would absolutely enhance the story as a whole, as well as his own character arc -- particularly if he is struggling to maintain his humanity or even to exhibit it in spite of other unnatural urges. If anything, only Jon fans blinded by their affection for the character seem to think that that the story could ever unfold otherwise, especially if the author wishes to maintain thematic and stylistic cohesion.

Interesting points, I agree that he will no doubt be changed by his resurrection. I think since GRRM writes about "the human heart in conflict with itself", a flawed resurrection and its consequences could work, but making him a mindless ice wight wouldn't really be very interesting or intriguing for the story. Maybe he swears vengeance on his former "brothers" of the NW, and becomes more ruthless? I agree that having him be this force of destruction who just seeks to slaughter his enemies and become like Stoneheart to be boring and not the Stark way. I am not sure, just my two cents.

[Many-Faced Votary]

47 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

“Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?”. 

With all due respect, I think it is a little disingenuous to use that quote as evidence that Jon does not die.

 

Consider the mutiny scene itself:

Quote

.When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?"

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. John reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold . . .

Jon XII, A Dance with Dragons

Also refer to this passage that occurs in the third paragraph of the very next chapter:

Quote

 A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain.

The Queen's Hand, A Dance with Dragons

 

We can contemplate and conclude the following:

• The chapter is written in such a way that Jon having been killed seems to be a foregone conclusion.
  • The knife that "barely grazed" Jon's skin was written from Jon's perspective; it is more likely he simply didn't feel it, as evidenced by it "welling between his fingers." The telltale "blood came before the pain," as Barristan specifically notes is often true even with deep cuts.
• Jon has likely warged into Ghost.
  •  It has been established that all the Stark children are wargs who are able to control their direwolves.
  • The Prologue in the same book is Varamyr Sixskins; the entire point of that chapter is to illustrate how powerful skinchangers can use their ability and what happens to them when they die. Thematically, it is a perfect setup.
    • Importantly, Varamyr notes that skinchanging into a direwolf "would be a second life worthy of a king" after sensing that Jon is a powerful warg.

 

Consequently, Jon might not have "died" in the sense that his consciousness is completely lost; but his true, human form is almost certainly currently dead. It is likeliest that Jon's spirit will somehow be restored to his body, thereby recovered from Ghost. That does mean that resurrection may not affect him as much as it affected Beric (certainly, it won't be at the level of LSH), but dying is still not akin to taking a nap, regardless of what the show might demonstrate. Furthermore, his time as Ghost will very probably make him more "wolfish" in some ways -- for a human, that generally connotes negative traits.

 

22 minutes ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

Interesting points, I agree that he will no doubt be changed by his resurrection. I think since GRRM writes about "the human heart in conflict with itself", a flawed resurrection and its consequences could work, but making him a mindless ice wight wouldn't really be very interesting or intriguing for the story. Maybe he swears vengeance on his former "brothers" of the NW, and becomes more ruthless? I agree that having him be this force of destruction who just seeks to slaughter his enemies and become like Stoneheart to be boring and not the Stark way. I am not sure, just my two cents. 

I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Jon might or might not remain a POV character, but given his character arc and importance to the story, he will certainly retain sufficient humanity and sense of himself that we will be able to continue observing his heart in conflict with itself upon his likely resurrection. He could well be more ruthless, more obsessive, more vengeful, more selfish, or any combination of these and other traits that death consistently seems to exaggerate.

[kissdbyfire]

I didn’t use it as evidence, as it can’t be used as such. I was just trying to make the point that we don’t actually know whether Jon died or is severely wounded or something else. It seems lots of people are assuming it will all go down a certain way because of something else, but the truth is, we don’t know at this point. 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I didn’t use it as evidence, as it can’t be used as such. I was just trying to make the point that we don’t actually know whether Jon died or is severely wounded or something else. It seems lots of people are assuming it will all go down a certain way because of something else, but the truth is, we don’t know at this point. 

But to be fair, doesn't it seem pretty likely that he has died, at least temporarily? He has been stabbed multiple times, has lost a lot of blood and is continuing to bleed out. I think he has likely warged Ghost, but his body has died. We don't know for certain, I agree, but it seems more likely than not in my opinion. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 10/26/2019 at 8:38 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

I would like to point out that Lady Stoneheart is a fire wight, because Lord Beric himself was a fire wight, as confirmed by GRRM himself in the interview through which he introduced this terminology, who "passed the flame of life" to Lady Catelyn's corpse.

We can observe that, although fire wights are not seemingly mindless thralls as ice wights appear to be, they do change after death in various discernible ways. Although Lord Beric seems not to have been affected as much as Catelyn, each resurrection had stripped away more and more of his humanity -- as characterized by moral code and honor, desires, physiological functions, sense of self, and so forth -- and he was ultimately a mere shell of the person he once was. In particular, his single-minded focus on fulfilling Lord Eddard's task of bringing Gregor Clegane to justice reflects Lady Stoneheart's indefatigable hunger for vengeance. From the comparatively little we know of Lady Stoneheart, she furthermore seems to have completely lost empathy and any sense of justice; she has essentially become a different person, if we can even call such a fanatical entity a "person."

Although it would be nonsensical to suggest that the conditions of Cat's death, the period between her death and resurrection (i.e., physical decay reflected by mental decay), and the unprecedented passing of the flame did not play a role in the type of wight she seems to have become, it would be even more ludicrous to posit that Cat might be so adversely affected but Jon wouldn't have changed significantly.

Indeed, that resurrection changes people, and more generally that attempts to defy nature always go wrong, are established as major themes in A Song of Ice and Fire.

It is unlikely that Jon will return to life as anything other than a fire wight, but however he might be resurrected, he will not be unaltered. At the very least, he will demonstrate obsessiveness with respect to the situation at the time of his death.

Lastly, Jon's flawed resurrection would absolutely enhance the story as a whole, as well as his own character arc -- particularly if he is struggling to maintain his humanity or even to exhibit it in spite of other unnatural urges. If anything, only Jon fans blinded by their affection for the character seem to think that that the story could ever unfold otherwise, especially if the author wishes to maintain thematic and stylistic cohesion.

Ice wight is more likely for Jon.  The closest being who can bring him back are the White Walkers. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

32 minutes ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

Ice wight is more likely for Jon.  The closest being who can bring him back are the White Walkers. 

It is certainly a possibility, but I would respectfully disagree that it is one worth considering.

Firstly, all evidence points to ice wights essentially being akin to the popular modern depiction of zombies: mindless creatures of the grave. Regardless of whether this is completely true, they do seem to have lost their sense of self and are objectively ensorceled by the Others. Transforming one of the main characters into such an entity would hardly make for a satisfying story; this is especially important because his overarching purpose appears far from complete.

Furthermore, although a certain group of people might believe that awakening as a fire wight is akin to waking from a nap, this is not the case: fire wights (Lord Beric and Lady Stoneheart) have drastically changed physically and physiologically as well as mentally and emotionally. This is the most sensible approach with Jon, as it deals with consequences of resurrection while retaining a sufficient amount of Jon's humanity such that his story is still worth telling.

Lastly, the "Song of Ice and Fire" has a great number of meanings, several of which relate specifically to Jon Snow. It would be quite fulfilling if the "fire" of his undead self kindled at the "ice" of the Wall in addition to the other interpretations, particularly if he is meant to be Azor Ahai reborn.

As for the "how," presuming the above is true, we do not yet know. The most popular theories assume Melisandre will be the one to bring him back in some way, but there are also propositions such as LSH passing the flame onto Jon.

[kissdbyfire]

@Many-Faced Votary, perhaps you should edit your post above. There’s absolutely no talk of the abomination this side of the forum. 

[Many-Faced Votary]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Many-Faced Votary, perhaps you should edit your post above. There’s absolutely no talk of the abomination this side of the forum.  

My apologies! I have edited my post accordingly.

Thank you for the information.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 10/26/2019 at 8:38 PM, Many-Faced Votary said:

I would like to point out that Lady Stoneheart is a fire wight, because Lord Beric himself was a fire wight, as confirmed by GRRM himself in the interview through which he introduced this terminology, who "passed the flame of life" to Lady Catelyn's corpse.

We can observe that, although fire wights are not seemingly mindless thralls as ice wights appear to be, they do change after death in various discernible ways. Although Lord Beric seems not to have been affected as much as Catelyn, each resurrection had stripped away more and more of his humanity -- as characterized by moral code and honor, desires, physiological functions, sense of self, and so forth -- and he was ultimately a mere shell of the person he once was. In particular, his single-minded focus on fulfilling Lord Eddard's task of bringing Gregor Clegane to justice reflects Lady Stoneheart's indefatigable hunger for vengeance. From the comparatively little we know of Lady Stoneheart, she furthermore seems to have completely lost empathy and any sense of justice; she has essentially become a different person, if we can even call such a fanatical entity a "person."

Although it would be nonsensical to suggest that the conditions of Cat's death, the period between her death and resurrection (i.e., physical decay reflected by mental decay), and the unprecedented passing of the flame did not play a role in the type of wight she seems to have become, it would be even more ludicrous to posit that Cat might be so adversely affected but Jon wouldn't have changed significantly.

Indeed, that resurrection changes people, and more generally that attempts to defy nature always go wrong, are established as major themes in A Song of Ice and Fire.

It is unlikely that Jon will return to life as anything other than a fire wight, but however he might be resurrected, he will not be unaltered. At the very least, he will demonstrate obsessiveness with respect to the situation at the time of his death.

Lastly, Jon's flawed resurrection would absolutely enhance the story as a whole, as well as his own character arc -- particularly if he is struggling to maintain his humanity or even to exhibit it in spite of other unnatural urges. If anything, only Jon fans blinded by their affection for the character seem to think that that the story could ever unfold otherwise, especially if the author wishes to maintain thematic and stylistic cohesion.

 

11 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

As for the "how," presuming the above is true, we do not yet know. The most popular theories assume Melisandre will be the one to bring him back in some way, but there are also propositions such as LSH passing the flame onto Jon.

Stoneheart will only do that if Jon is set to avenge the Starks.  Revenge is all she has in mind.  Jon will be the same.  He might get the news that Arya is dead and that will be enough to flip his mind to the dark side.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

On 10/29/2019 at 4:38 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Stoneheart will only do that if Jon is set to avenge the Starks.  Revenge is all she has in mind.  Jon will be the same.  He might get the news that Arya is dead and that will be enough to flip his mind to the dark side.   

We don't truly know how much of Lady Catelyn is left in Lady Stoneheart or whether she can transcend her fixation, so there is little support for such a hypothesis. The biggest flaws with that theory are logistical. There is also the concern that such a deed might paint her former actions as completely in the wrong, as opposed to a reaction borne of certain aspects and complexities of the patriarchal feudal society, which specifically illustrates how highborn women and bastards are adversely affected. Nevertheless, it would be poetic if she were to ultimately sacrifice herself for the boy she believes to be her late husband's last son and her daughters' last brother, and this would be particularly profound if Arya were able to witness the pitfalls of revenge after coming across what she has become before that point.

As for Jon, there is no evidence that the reports of Arya's supposed death would be sufficient to "flip his mind to the dark side." Not only are people much more complex than that even in death, but there was also an absurd coalescence of circumstances surrounding Cat's death that resulted in LSH rising as the ruthless, vengeful entity we have seen.