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White Night

An Evil Name

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26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is incorrect. The CotF and the FM signed the Pact long before the LN. It is said that the CotF helped build the Wall, in fact.

 

Actually nothing is factually correct or incorrect regarding the LN and the pact. All we have is stories written thousands of years after the event. it-is-said is not the same as this-is-fact. We can theorise at this point but any factual statements would be immature.

 

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According to Martin, it took centuries to build the Wall, and thousands of years for it to reach its current height. So, no one was trapped on the north side of it. 

No one said they were trapped. The wildlings went willingly or maybe half willingly to avoid persecution for their new religion and tp practice it freely. The wall was a magical barrier against warging not a physical one against human trespassing. It was not until hundreds and probably thousands of year later that the wall took its current shape and the NW forgot their true purpose. 

 

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I don’t recall any textual evidence for any of this. Care to provide some?

Read Bran's Chapter when he was at the Nightfort. The characteristics of the well are described clearly. Its purpose  is unknown. I theorise it was used by the NK to sacrifice to the Others/CotF. 

Edited by White Night

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17 minutes ago, White Night said:

Actually nothing is factually correct or incorrect regarding the LN and the pact. All we have is stories written thousands of years after the event. it-is-said is not the same as this-is-fact. We can theorise at this point but any factual statements would be immature.

Everything we do have on the Pact and LN support the following:

- the Pact was signed long before the LN

- the FM started following the Old Gods of the CotF

Anyone can disregard the text and come up w/ ideas that are not based on the novels, but when you have to handwave the info we have and claim "it's unproven" or whatever, then you have a problem. 

17 minutes ago, White Night said:

No one said they were trapped. The wildlings went willingly or maybe half willingly to avoid persecution for their new religion and tp practice it freely. The wall was a magical barrier against warging not a physical one against human trespassing. It was not until hundreds and probably thousands of year later that the wall took its current shape and the NW forgot their true purpose. 

What new religion are you referring to here?

17 minutes ago, White Night said:

Read Bran's Chapter when he was at the Nightfort. The characteristics of the well are described clearly. Its purpose  is unknown. I theorise it was used by the NK to sacrifice to the Others/CotF. 

I have read that chapter. It provides no supoort for the well being used to sacrifice children, as far as I can tell. 

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The 13th commander was corrupted by love.  Jon got corrupted by the love he secretly holds for Arya.  I don't necessarily think he will become the new NK but he will betray the purpose of the watch and side with the White Walkers.  Jon is very similar to Arya.  He has revenge on his mind.  Jon will follow the path of Lady Stoneheart.  Living in a broken body and staying alive only to punish the people who fought against his family. 

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The story isn't that hard to follow.  The 13th Lord Commander was a brave man who carried out his duties bravely until one day he fell under the spell of pale woman.  He wasn't born a bad man.  Jon Snow wasn't born a bad man.  Love just tipped them over the edge.  Desire won over duty. 

It is an intriguing possibility if one of their offsprings survived and brought the blood of the Others to the Stark bloodline.  It means the Starks carry the blood of the warg king, Others, and Bael.  I proposed a theory that the Starks and Craster are closely related.  That will explain why Craster's brood was so important to the Others.  They're kin.  That could also explain why the Others want to cross the wall.  They have a claim to Stark lands because they are, for the most part, also Starks. 

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On 9/29/2019 at 11:23 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The story isn't that hard to follow.  The 13th Lord Commander was a brave man who carried out his duties bravely until one day he fell under the spell of pale woman.  He wasn't born a bad man.  Jon Snow wasn't born a bad man.  Love just tipped them over the edge.  Desire won over duty. 

It is an intriguing possibility if one of their offsprings survived and brought the blood of the Others to the Stark bloodline.  It means the Starks carry the blood of the warg king, Others, and Bael.  I proposed a theory that the Starks and Craster are closely related.  That will explain why Craster's brood was so important to the Others.  They're kin.  That could also explain why the Others want to cross the wall.  They have a claim to Stark lands because they are, for the most part, also Starks. 

A wellknown youtuber has proposed that they are new born bastards that got disposed of on the other side of the wall.  This is the great sin of the lord's right to have the first sex with all peasant brides.  These offsprings of noblemen are coming back to put forth claims on the lands of their fathers. 

Mine proposed that these are the descendants of the Stark NK.  The Others and the Starks are two brances from the same tree.  Craster as well because the Others tolerate his presence on their side of the wall.

 

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On 9/26/2019 at 11:24 AM, John Suburbs said:

My own pet theory goes even deeper. The Stark Ice blood comes from the Corpse Queen. At the time they were defeated, the NK and CQ were about to make their latest sacrifice, a little half-human, half-Other/wight boy. As the heir to the NK, he would naturally have inherited all of his previous lands and titles, which I suspect was the Dreadfort. This little creature then discovered he had a unique talent: he could father children on human wives, wait until they come of age, then kill them, skin them (aka, flaying) and then wear their skins in a perfect likeness, except for the eyes which remain pale as morning mist. Then this same boy-creature could continue on as the new lord, eventually marrying into the Stark family and even becoming King of Winter (Brandon Ice-Eyes?) or Lord of Winterfell, for a time.

Right now, of course, this creature is posing as Roose Bolton, but pretty soon he'll make the switch into Ramsay, which is why he had to get rid of Dom and set Ramsay up as his heir, since he can only wear the skins of his own son. So in the next two books, expect Roose to die, and then see if Ramsay doesn't suddenly calm down, start speaking in whispers, and leeching himself.

The NK was a Stark.  His son will have no claim to the Dreadfort. 

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There have been enough Starks LC for one to be the NK. It didn't preclude other to become LC.

I suppose there has been enough Snow bastards in the NW to raise bad memory in the Free Folk.

The Red Priests, the Blood Mages are sacrificing lives to the Shadows. Slaves and enemies. Craster is giving his sons to the Others. But is it sacrifice if they become Others? Anyway, it's not something well perceived by the Free Folk and the Northmen.

There seem to be some cases of sacrifice related with the CotF or the Old Gods. But it is imprecise, out of context. I refer to documented facts, not wild speculations. Unclear what is the relation between the Old Gods, Others and sacrifices.

 

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Nan's stories are direct on.  The Nights King was a Stark.  The white walkers fed their wights on human flesh.  Something has to give energy to the wights.  Maybe human flesh is what keeps them running.  Nights King and Corpse Bride made sacrifices but something made these special.  The Stark blood is desirable for the white walkers as was Craster's blood. 

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The few lines used at the Black Gate seem be an indication of the original oath.   

Which make it sound like it may have only been one person carrying Ice/Dawn.   

Perhaps the Corpse Queen with some willing CotF like sacrifices to the Weirwood?  

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I am the sword in the darkness.

I am the watcher on the walls. 

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers.

I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

So these lines would have likely been added later by the 13th LC/Night's King.  

Perhaps when the Nightfort was built and cells added is when unwilling sacrifices started? 

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Night gathers, and now my watch begins. 

It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. 

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

I shall live and die at my post.  

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

I find it interesting that Jon added another line for himself, which would seem to connect him to the original lines, rather than later ones. 

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I am the guard who opened the gates and let the foe march through.

 

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On 10/12/2019 at 11:34 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

A wellknown youtuber has proposed that they are new born bastards that got disposed of on the other side of the wall.  This is the great sin of the lord's right to have the first sex with all peasant brides.  These offsprings of noblemen are coming back to put forth claims on the lands of their fathers. 

Mine proposed that these are the descendants of the Stark NK.  The Others and the Starks are two brances from the same tree.  Craster as well because the Others tolerate his presence on their side of the wall.

 

Preston Jacobs referred to the passage beneath the wall and called it the bastard gate.  George made bastardry a prominent thematic element.  Men fathering children and the husbands of the mothers rejecting the child.  The Lord's Sin, if you will.  I find it hard to fault the husband who will now be faced with supporting the bastard of the man who raped his bride.  But compassion would win out in a perfect world and the husband would take in the child and raise it as his own.  Ser Willem Darry sacrificed everything to raise Viserys and Daenerys.  That was the path of the righteous.  Most men are not though and chose to get rid of the baby in the most discreet way possible.  Without soiling their hands with blood.  Ridding the family of an unwanted baby while keeping up with his own morality.  It was a neat solution until Allyssane stuck her nose into it.  She only made it inconvenient to get the baby across the wall but not impossible.  Ten thousand years of bride-raping would result in thousands of noble bastards carried out to die.  Enough to have an army.  

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Jon is another baby resulting from a wildling man taking a winterfell maiden to bed.  Mance Rayder got Lyanna with child.

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On 10/12/2019 at 11:37 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

The NK was a Stark.  His son will have no claim to the Dreadfort. 

Could have been a Stark originally, then went on to found House Bolton some years, or centuries, later. Or he could have been a Bolton first and Old Nan is just retelling the myth that evolved over the eons.

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On 10/12/2019 at 11:34 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

A wellknown youtuber has proposed that they are new born bastards that got disposed of on the other side of the wall.  This is the great sin of the lord's right to have the first sex with all peasant brides.  These offsprings of noblemen are coming back to put forth claims on the lands of their fathers. 

Mine proposed that these are the descendants of the Stark NK.  The Others and the Starks are two brances from the same tree.  Craster as well because the Others tolerate his presence on their side of the wall.

 

Preston Jacobs and the Bastard Gate theory.  The amount of babies killed are high.  It wasn't only the lords who were guilty of producing bastards like it's a factory assembly line.  Men who got women pregnant out of wedlock and the women themselves with honor to protect were getting rid of unwanted children. 

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This is really interesting, I think you are on to something. One thought I had is maybe that the NK and his pale bride sacrificed children to the Others as it was part of the pact with them that ended the original long night. Since that had already happened and people had forgotten, they naturally looked on the sacrifice as an abomination and the Stark in Winterfell and the King Beyond the Wall teamed up to cast down the NK. Maybe also interbreeding between the humans and Others was part of the original pact as well, and the Stark bloodline has the blood of the Others in their veins? Either way, it's really fascinating to me and something I hope we get more info about. It also makes me wonder if there are female Others, as the NK's wife's description sounds similar to that of an Other. 

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On 9/25/2019 at 9:18 AM, White Night said:

 

 

 

Although all records of the Night’s King appear to have been destroyed south of the wall, the same cannot be said of north of the Wall. You’d expect there to be stories similar to those of Old Nan’s told by the wildlings to their children. For the wildling to unite under one King and fight on the side of the kneelers it must had been a dangerous situation in which they found themselves. No doubt stories of that event spread among the wildlings and became a part of their history and lore. 

The Night's King was a Stark.  His act of betrayal is a stain on the Stark's family honor.  The Starks are an arrogant lot.  They destroyed the historical records to save themselves the embarrassment. 

 

What is perceived as evil by a culture that doesn't flinch at rape, theft, kidnapping and murder must be something drastically worse. If the bastard surname is not in itself evil, therefore, the whole name, Jon Snow is. What if the two are connected? The only other instance in the show where the wildling regard something as evil is  Craster and his incest and sacrifice to the others. Val even calls Craster’s son Monster.

It could very well have been the source of hatred for bastards.  The Night's King was a Stark bastard. 

 

Allow me to tell a story of my own.

 

There was once a Stark LC who chased and caught a female Other. He gave her his seed for the others can’t produce on their own. For reasons of either diplomatic peace or personal vanity he proclaimed himself a king and her his queen. They sacrificed their baby boys to the others by throwing them down the well in the Nightfort. and kept the girls for breading.

To sacrifice one's own child is the highest form of an offering.  But yeah, he was specifically chosen to have sex with the pale woman because the Starks are genetically compatible with the Others, as is Craster, who may be a Stark himself.

After thirteen years his first daughter flowered and he decided to breed with her to keep the bloodline as pure as possible. When words of this reached the two Kings north and south of the wall, perhaps with increased sightings of others, they united to end this abomination once and for all. They did. Afterwards they discovered how he'd been giving his seed to the others. They also managed to save a baby boy from being thrown down the well. Horror struck the Stark King and he had no option but to bring the 'little monster' down with him to Winterfell. To ensure that the horrible events would not repeat themselves, he called his baby nephew Jon Snow and raised him as his bastard. He deleted all records of his brother the Night's King and swore all his lords to keep the identity of the Night's king hidden. For this not a merely due to shame of a family scandal but the fear that the little monster or his offspring might resume their father's practice if they were aware of their identify and unique blood.

And if Rhaegar had fathered Jon, which I doubt, it would perfectly mirror this birth but seeded with fire instead of ice.  Jon Snow might be headed to become the next Night's King. Jon already tore the Night's Watch apart for the sake of his sister.  He has been destructive, regardless of who fathered him.  

Several years later, maybe after one or two generations of Starks. After all those who witnessed the event of the Night’s King had perished along with their secrets. At some point, the new King of the Winter found himself in need of an heir and maybe for reasons of war or sickness there were non except his bastard brother Jon Snow or one of his offspring. The King then legitimises him and the throne eventually passes to him. Unbeknownst to the Starks, the blood of the Other has infiltrated them. A blue rose, like the one Bael the Bard and Rheygar left; the seed of the enemy. The blood of the Other brings with it other magical abilities such as warging and greensight. This could explain the numerous ice and cold references to the Starks, aside from the mundane reason of the location of their habitat. After all, this is a fantasy novel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This also adds flavour to fascinating stories of Stark legends such as Edrick Snowbeard, the Hungry Wolf and … Ice Eyes. Ice Eyes, who’s actual name was Brandon Stark, was the king who recaptured the wolves’ den from the slavers during a cruel long winter. The early Stark Kings were hard cruel men who brought the season with them, and their house words were not a prudent reminder but a chilling threat. Winter is Coming, and woe to those who provoke the Kings of Winter.

 

 

 

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On 9/29/2019 at 11:23 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The story isn't that hard to follow.  The 13th Lord Commander was a brave man who carried out his duties bravely until one day he fell under the spell of pale woman.  He wasn't born a bad man.  Jon Snow wasn't born a bad man.  Love just tipped them over the edge.  Desire won over duty. 

It is an intriguing possibility if one of their offsprings survived and brought the blood of the Others to the Stark bloodline.  It means the Starks carry the blood of the warg king, Others, and Bael.  I proposed a theory that the Starks and Craster are closely related.  That will explain why Craster's brood was so important to the Others.  They're kin.  That could also explain why the Others want to cross the wall.  They have a claim to Stark lands because they are, for the most part, also Starks. 

I believe the broader implications that connect the NK and Jon Snow are their betrayal of duty.  They betrayed their duties for a woman.  The corpse bride in the case of the NK.  You know, you could also say Arya is a corpse bride.  She spent a lot of time handling corpses.  Brides of death, if you will. 

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On 9/25/2019 at 6:18 AM, White Night said:

If the bastard surname is not in itself evil, therefore, the whole name, Jon Snow is. 

Could Bael's son be Jon Snow, later legitimized to Jon Stark? Jon Snow I killing Bael, their hero, would be evil in the wildlings' book. Ygritte might have wanted to leave out that part. If not, I think it may just be authorial foreshadowing for Jon being a danger to Ygritte and perhaps every woman that loves him. 

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Could Bael's son be Jon Snow, later legitimized to Jon Stark? Jon Snow I killing Bael, their hero, would be evil in the wildlings' book. Ygritte might have wanted to leave out that part. If not, I think it may just be authorial foreshadowing for Jon being a danger to Ygritte and perhaps every woman that loves him. 

Bael's son would have been called Jon Stark.  He would not have inherited Winterfell if his surname was Snow.  The Starks hid that scandal from the public.  Imagine the north accepting the son of a wildling as their leader.  It won't go over well.  The wildlings have been harassing the north for millennia and as we know, those ice heads don't forget something so minor as a slight.  

The connection between the old night's king and jon snow is their betrayal of the wall.  They accepted and were tasked with a duty to dedicate themselves but they fell off the wagon because of their emotions.  The "love is the death of duty" that was talked about so early on in the story.  The night's king brought the enemy to the wall and adopted their ways, but there was never any evidence that he let them cross to harass the people.  Jon lets the wildlings through, betrayed the wall for Arya, and planned to attack the people he was supposed to protect.  Something will happen to Jon Snow that will push him over the edge and bring the white walkers across the wall.  

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Jon will come back with the same motivation for revenge that drives Lady Stoneheart.  He might be called Lord Icehart instead of the Nightsking. 

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