What shouldn't be done...about climate change

[ThinkerX]

6 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Unfinished thought?

The problem is, none of those past slow burn innovations were associated with an existential crisis. In the absence of climate change who cares if EVs take 50 or 100 years to become the dominant means of personal motorised transport? I'm not in any rush to go electric except for the rising levels of CO₂ in the atmosphere. So it's not a question of EVs following the same trajectory as the usual technology evolutionary cycle. It's more a question of whether, for the sake of the planet and human civilisation, there is a need to break that cycle and force a shorter timeframe, and if so how that should be done?

In short: can we afford to wait those few decades for EVs to become dominant?

I have to fall back to my other argument here: the fossil fuel supply situation is critical.  Immense effort is spent on masking this, but it remains true all the same.  That alone will force a transition to alternative energy.   This situation coincides with the dire climate change predictions.  

 

The second part of my argument, that NOBODY wants to face up to, is that there is no combination of alternative energy sources (including energy efficiency) that will keep civilization 'as is.'  The transition is likely to be....highly unpleasant.  The shape that society takes afterwards is almost certain to be alien to our current cultural views.   

[The Anti-Targ]

Just now, ThinkerX said:

I have to fall back to my other argument here: the fossil fuel supply situation is critical.  Immense effort is spent on masking this, but it remains true all the same.  That alone will force a transition to alternative energy.   This situation coincides with the dire climate change predictions.  

 

The second part of my argument, that NOBODY wants to face up to, is that there is no combination of alternative energy sources (including energy efficiency) that will keep civilization 'as is.'  The transition is likely to be....highly unpleasant.  The shape that society takes afterwards is almost certain to be alien to our current cultural views.   

There is, but too many people are afraid of it and it takes a substantial investment to put it in place for what is likely to only be a transitional solution. That is nuclear fission. But like so much on climate change solutions it's a day late and a dollar short. If nuclear power was progressively implemented globally without a major hiatus things would look a lot less dire, because it would have naturally replaced fossil fuel generation via that evolutionary process you described for other technologies.

Australia could have been be all nuke by now and have an extremely low, nearing zero net emissions economy. But nope it's still chugging out large amounts of CO₂ with not much reduction in sight in the immediate future. And the funny thing is nucular^{(TM GW Bush)} is a technology the right would get behind so long as you didn't make it about defeating climate change (which is a hoax). But nuclear is now associated with "clean" so the right doesn't like it any more, and it's never been regarded as green, so the left hates it and won't consider it. So no one wants it now.

[ThinkerX]

There will no doubt be issues, and there may be delays for various reasons, but this shows some promise:

https://bigthink.com/technology-innovation/protein-from-air?utm_medium=Social&facebook=1&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2TRM1BGBAFva59g673TkXNdyQGzyNmkXCJkdcNBPdx7XHugk-zwMANkYo#Echobox=1570719979

 

• The company's protein powder, "Solein," is similar in form and taste to wheat flour.
• Based on a concept developed by NASA, the product has wide potential as a carbon-neutral source of protein.
• The man-made "meat" industry just got even more interesting.

It's not like you can make food out of thin air. Well…it turns out you can. A company from Finland, Solar Foods, is planning to bring to market a new protein powder, Solein, made out of CO₂, water and electricity. It's a high-protein, flour-like ingredient that contains 50 percent protein content, 5–10 percent fat, and 20–25 percent carbs. It reportedly looks and tastes like wheat flour, and could become an ingredient in a wide variety of food products after its initial launch in 2021.

It's likely to first appear on grocery shelves in protein shakes and yogurt. It could be an exciting development: Solein's manufacturing process is carbon neutral and the potential for scalability seems unlimited — we've got too much CO₂, if anything. Why not get rid of some greenhouse gas with a side of fries?

 

[karaddin]

That does sound promising indeed if it pans out as per their hopes.

[Loge]

Quote

It's not like you can make food out of thin air. Well…it turns out you can.

We have been making food out of thin air for millennia. It's called farming.

[Luzifer's right hand]

5 hours ago, Loge said:

We have been making food out of thin air for millennia. It's called farming.

Without fertilizers which require large plants for their production feeding the worlds population would be impossible. 

That has nothing to do with making food out of thin air.

Unless that is what you call the Haber–Bosch process and you need natural gas for that too. 

That does not even consider things like soil degradation.

[Loge]

18 minutes ago, Wolfgang I said:

Without fertilizers which require large plants for their production feeding the worlds population would be impossible. 

That has nothing to do with making food out of thin air.

Unless that is what you call the Haber–Bosch process and you need natural gas for that too. 

That does not even consider things like soil degradation.

I take it you have heard about photosynthesis. Looks like author of the article that was posted upthread hasn't.

 As for the Haber-Bosch process, you don't need natural gas for that. That's just the cheapest way to produce the hydrogen. And it could be disputed that we really need it in the quantities we use right now as a large chunk of it is for meat production.

[Luzifer's right hand]

1 hour ago, Loge said:

I take it you have heard about photosynthesis. Looks like author of the article that was posted upthread hasn't.

 As for the Haber-Bosch process, you don't need natural gas for that. That's just the cheapest way to produce the hydrogen. And it could be disputed that we really need it in the quantities we use right now as a large chunk of it is for meat production.

I grew up on a farm and know that the  plants we get our nutrients from need more than sun and air. Even crop rotation does not work long term at current population levels and I have yet to meet an organic farmer which does not use at least some mineral based additives to prevent soil degradation(if only to prevent soil acidification). The idea that farming produces food out of air is amusing to me nothing else. 

The point about hydrogen is true of course but I was talking about the current situation.

Hah hateing veganism is one of the core issues of most right wing parties nowdays and it is a complete no-go for the majority of people. 

 

Edit: I'm not saying that the tech is a viable approach though. Most likely it is just another piece of hopeium.

[maarsen]

2 hours ago, Wolfgang I said:

I grew up on a farm and know that the  plants we get our nutrients from need more than sun and air. Even crop rotation does not work long term at current population levels and I have yet to meet an organic farmer which does not use at least some mineral based additives to prevent soil degradation(if only to prevent soil acidification). The idea that farming produces food out of air is amusing to me nothing else. 

The point about hydrogen is true of course but I was talking about the current situation.

Hah hateing veganism is one of the core issues of most right wing parties nowdays and it is a complete no-go for the majority of people. 

 

Edit: I'm not saying that the tech is a viable approach though. Most likely it is just another piece of hopeium.

Nitrogen is what is needed. The Haber-Bosch process is just a cheap way of making ammonia, NH3, for fertilizer, Nitrogen in this form can be taken up by plants. Using nitrogen fixing plants such as legumes helps feed the world and boost the soil at the same time. An even better use of the land is to use perennial varieties of staples such as wheat or corn or legumes so that one does not have to keep disturbing the soil to replant every year. 

[The Anti-Targ]

We shouldn't be debating anymore whether lifetime emissions of EVs are less than ICE cars:

Quote

In summary, we conclude on the basis of recent studies that fossil-fuelled cars generally emit more than electric cars in all phases of a life cycle. The total life cycle emissions from a fossil-fuelled car and an electric car in Australia were 333gCO2/km and 273gCO2/km, respectively. That is, using average grid electricity, EVs come out about 18 per cent better in terms of their carbon footprint.

Likewise, electric cars in New Zealand work out a lot better than fossil-fuelled cars in terms of emissions, with life-cycle emissions at about 333gCO2/km for fossil-fuelled cars and 128gCO2/km for electric cars. In New Zealand, EVs perform about 62 per cent better than fossil cars in carbon footprint terms.

At least not in NZ or Aussie. Though for Aussie is 18% a meaningful benefit? Arguably for Aussie a far more important plan is to de-fossilise electricity generation before people really get into EVs in a big way. Though every bit of reduction does help. But for NZ the benefit is clear.

 

[karaddin]

Ultimately the biggest contribution Australia makes is its ongoing fire sale on coal, putting in increasingly large mines which are approaching zero economic benefit to local communities due to being almost entirely automated, and being located perilously close to the GBR.

But yes, the electricity generation needs to move on at well.

[ThinkerX]

Saved by falling concrete blocks?  An interesting idea, something like a large scale 'gravity light.'  Probably worth a shot...

 

https://interestingengineering.com/concrete-blocks-serving-as-the-future-of-renewable-energy-storage?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Article&utm_campaign=organic&utm_content=Oct16&fbclid=IwAR035lBB4aXXvZ8PuvpUL3ALckN-MxTssSTAG2Cgx8XblDPNlGzB572uy1w

 

The company's storage facility looks like this: an almost 120 meter- (400 foot-) tall, six-armed crane of custom-built concrete blocks. Each block weighs 35 metric-tons each. 

 

Solar or wind energy is siphoned into one of these tower blocks, and then AI informs the concrete blocks to rise up. 

 

Following this, the blocks are then "returned to the ground, and the kinetic energy generated from the falling brick is turned back into electricity," as per the company's own description. 

 

[Heartofice]

What should be done about climate change? Probably not stopping people getting to work in the morning. 
 

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

What should be done about climate change? Probably not stopping people getting to work in the morning. 
 

 

Disrupting the tube? Wtf. Around here they prefer disrupting non-puplic  transport. 

The Fridays for Future ppl around here  avoid disrupting puplic transport, as much as possible for a protest, too from my experince. 

[Heartofice]

6 minutes ago, Wolfgang I said:

Disrupting the tube? Wtf. Around here they prefer disrupting non-puplic  transport. 

The Fridays for Future ppl around here  avoid disrupting puplic transport, as much as possible for a protest, too from my experince. 

Its a huge misreading of their audience and a very good way to turn people against you. 

[Rippounet]

It's a ridiculously bad PR strategy.

But then, the actual problem is that we're still at the stage where we have to think in terms of PR.

It it were me I would consider hitting the current system where it really hurts, but that would quickly be labeled terrorism...

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Wolfgang I said:

Disrupting the tube? Wtf. Around here they prefer disrupting non-puplic  transport. 

The Fridays for Future ppl around here  avoid disrupting puplic transport, as much as possible for a protest, too from my experince. 

I doubt it was any kind of plan by whatever organisation Extinction Rebellion has so much as two idiots taking it upon themselves and associating themselves with the name, but yeah, it's an absolute boneheaded stupid move both in terms of message and in keeping the public onside.

[Heartofice]

They should have stuck to the impromptu Yoga sessions and interpretive dance. That was winning hearts and minds.

[ummester]

If human population levels are the problem, then surely climate change is a solution? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Our planet knows how to sustain itself, it's very arrogant of us, a pathetically modern species, to assume we have any bearing on the outcome.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Just because we have a right to be here, does not mean the universe will unfold in favor of our existence. To assume otherwise seems kind of religious and somewhat fundamentalist to me.

[Conflicting Thought]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

If human population levels are the problem, then surely climate change is a solution? I don't see what all the fuss is about. Our planet knows how to sustain itself, it's very arrogant of us, a pathetically modern species, to assume we have any bearing on the outcome.

You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Just because we have a right to be here, does not mean the universe will unfold in favor of our existence. To assume otherwise seems kind of religious and somewhat fundamentalist to me.

You dont see what all the fuss is about?. 

Maybe you have a severe lack of empathy, and understanding of the what are the problems we face and what are the possible solutions.

We have bearing in the outcome, cuz we are the cause, and we have the means to be the solution. 

Are you american, or european by any chance.