Why does Balon Greyjoy want to attack the North?

[The Young Maester]

From what I can see, the Iron Islands is the only kingdom that didn’t benefit from a united realm. I don’t think they have had much of an increase in population since Aegon’s conquest.

The fact is that the Iron born can no longer compete with each individual kingdom, unless it’s at sea. They can’t hope to conquer and hold lands in the mainland, because the rest of the kingdoms are just much better at field battles, and can field twice their numbers.
The only lands I can see the Iron born being able to hold are bear island and fair isle. And maybe the shield islands, and cape kraken. I doubt they could even hold onto the arbor, that’s only if they have a strong naval presence or have squashed a lot of the Local resistance (the arbor is a big island after all).

Quellon Greyjoy did the right thing by trying to integrate the islands with the rest of Westeros. The way the Iron born live is similar to the vikings and even the Viking’s had to adapt and convert.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Titles are a claim and a pretension, by naming themselves Kings of the Rhoynar, the Targs were claiming ownership over Dorne even when they couldn't conquer it and Balon certainly was going to try his luck, using a fallacy of ignorance when Balon's words are absolutisms and he does crown himself King of all the North is a rather unfair tactic, especially since the man is dead.

Aegon the Conqueror was also crowned king of 'all of Westeros' by his sisters before he had actually conquered Westeros - just as Stannis is still 'Your Graced' by his pitiful force who pretend he is not a doomed pretender.

Titles don't mean all that much.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Theon overreaches himself, true enough, yet he does save his fathers campaign by taking Winterfell,  Rodrik drives Cleftjaw becaue he knows the land and Cleftjaw don't and the latter only takes it when Rodrik is dead.

He actually endangers his father's campaign by reaching too far inland too early. And we have to admit that we have no clue what Balon intended to do to continue his conquest in the North. We are not there when he makes plans after Theon left him. We don't even know what his reaction was to Theon's capture. Did that stay his hand for the time being? It is possible, we don't know.

What you cannot do is to pretend you know Balon's plans better than the man himself - or military matters in the fictional world of Westeros. Balon certainly could have been mistaken about certain issues. But bottom line is: The Ironborn conquered all the Riverlands back in Harwyn's day and they can field about as many or more men than the North can.

When Balon attacked the North it was poorly defended and weak and if nothing had happened to Balon he could have continued his campaign.

And if the Starks had been destroyed completely then it is not that unlikely that an Ironborn overlord could have played the Northmen against each other. Without the Starks there is no unity in the North.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

No, Rodrik was trying to retake Winterfell and then he'd retake the rest, he never could do it anyway because the Boltons betrayed them and yes that would've been a tough battle, one the IB would eventually lose anyway.

Rodrik Cassel doesn't have enough men for that. He has no authority to rule the North, he isn't regent for the absent Robb, he is just the castellan of Winterfell. He couldn't even end the fighting between the Boltons and the Manderlys over the Hornwood lands.

Crucial Stark bannermen don't even show up to retake Winterfell - they wouldn't offer any help to retake Deepwood, etc. The sad truth is that even the mountain clans needed Stannis as a catalyst to help their Glover neighbors to drive the Ironborn back into the sea. There isn't much solidarity there, no?

 

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon the Conqueror was also crowned king of 'all of Westeros' by his sisters before he had actually conquered Westeros - just as Stannis is still 'Your Graced' by his pitiful force who pretend he is not a doomed pretender.

Titles don't mean all that much.

Precisely, both of them had every of pursuing their claims, Stannis has not abandoned his claim, that's why he keeps calling himself King, Aegon was crowned... and after that he made himself King, Titles are pretensions and claims and they do mean something.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He actually endangers his father's campaign by reaching too far inland too early. And we have to admit that we have no clue what Balon intended to do to continue his conquest in the North. We are not there when he makes plans after Theon left him. We don't even know what his reaction was to Theon's capture. Did that stay his hand for the time being? It is possible, we don't know.

What you cannot do is to pretend you know Balon's plans better than the man himself - or military matters in the fictional world of Westeros. Balon certainly could have been mistaken about certain issues. But bottom line is: The Ironborn conquered all the Riverlands back in Harwyn's day and they can field about as many or more men than the North can.

When Balon attacked the North it was poorly defended and weak and if nothing had happened to Balon he could have continued his campaign.

 

Did he?? By reaching too far, too early, he made sure the Notth couldn't answer accordingly to Balon, that's just a fact and we do know that Balon wanted Theon out of the picture so Asha could inherit, why would he care now??

 

I do can pretend military matters in the fictional Westeros, and Balon himself tells us his intentions, the Ironborn were actually leaded by a very capable man those days, they had local help, they didn't just conquer the Riverlands, many Riverlords helped them oust the Storm Kings,  the IB actually played the Riverlords against each other, the IB can't field as many men as the North and they can't control the North with 20k men, that's simply impossible,  the Trident gave the IB and incredible edge,  and as @Rufus Snow and @Arthur Peres said.

 

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Absolutely.

1) The land is poorer in the North than in the Riverlands

 2) The size of the North means his garrisons would have to be too thinly spread or too localised

3) The Hoares took the Riverlands from The Storm King, so they had the locals all bending the knee and joining the cause. Balon was trying to take the North from Northmen

4) Harren held the Riverlands, which are perfect for rapid movement by boat, which Ironmen are good at. Balon took the North, which is slow going even if you have horses, which Ironmen are NOT good at.

 5) Harren was a Sevener (of sorts...) holding Sevener lands (mostly). Balon was a Drowned God's man, taking land from the Old Gods.

  

Basically, everything the Black Line got right, Balon got wrong. 

Plus Winter.

Balon would've been defeated, plain and simple, be it the Northern lords finally started to act or be it Winter, Balon wouldn't have never made it to spring, that's just a  fact everyone with common sense realizes.

The IB can't hld lands in the mainland anymore, even after the war has ravaged Westeros, their only hopes still is fighting close the sea.

 

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And if the Starks had been destroyed completely then it is not that unlikely that an Ironborn overlord could have played the Northmen against each other. Without the Starks there is no unity in the North.

Not even a chance of that happening, the Riverlords were used to be controlled by foreign powers for centuries, the North is not the Riverlands.

 

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Rodrik Cassel doesn't have enough men for that. He has no authority to rule the North, he isn't regent for the absent Robb, he is just the castellan of Winterfell. He couldn't even end the fighting between the Boltons and the Manderlys over the Hornwood lands.

Crucial Stark bannermen don't even show up to retake Winterfell - they wouldn't offer any help to retake Deepwood, etc. The sad truth is that even the mountain clans needed Stannis as a catalyst to help their Glover neighbors to drive the Ironborn back into the sea. There isn't much solidarity there, no?

 

Ofc he couldn't, but the IB is not a domestic affair is it?? Rodrik had enough men to retake Winterfell from Theon and they would offer their help to retake Deepwood Mote and Moat Caitlin, or do you think the Moountain Clans and the likes are going to refuse ,Ned's children??

 

PD: I answered your earlier posts ina edit, in case you didn't notice-

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Precisely, both of them had every of pursuing their claims, Stannis has not abandoned his claim, that's why he keeps calling himself King, Aegon was crowned... and after that he made himself King, Titles are pretensions and claims and they do mean something.

Can you give me a quote where Balon Greyjoy actually calls himself 'the King in the North'? I know that's how he is referenced in the appendices but I don't recall any instance where Balon lays out what kind of titles he bears and what they mean - we don't even know what 'Lord Reaper of Pyke' means aside from that it sounds pretty cool.

Titles are meaningful if they are backed up by facts, i.e. when people pretending to a throne actually have a claim to the throne. They are just hot air when would-be conquerors - like Aegon I in the case of Dorne - prance around and bear a string of titles that don't fit with reality.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Did he?? By reaching too far, too early, he made sure the Notth couldn't answer accordingly to Balon, that's just a fact and we do know that Balon wanted Theon out of the picture so Asha could inherit, why would he care now??

I don't know. Balon is not a very developed character. We leave him in ACoK when Theon and Asha take ship and never see him again. We don't know what he did in the meantime or what he planned to do next - but it is rather obvious that taking Moat Cailin, Deepwood, and - thanks to Theon/Dagmer Cleftjaw - also Torrhen's Squre isn't the same as conquering the North. So where are his troops?

Balon was favoring Asha back in ACoK - but we don't know what Balon thought of Theon after he had taken Winterfell and avenged his brothers by seemingly butchering the Stark boys. Was he proud of Theon then? Did he want to get him back? We don't know because we never meet him again.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

I do can pretend military matters in the fictional Westeros, and Balon himself tells us his intentions, the Ironborn were actually leaded by a very capable man those days, they had local help, they didn't just conquer the Riverlands, many Riverlords helped them oust the Storm Kings,  the IB actually played the Riverlords against each other, the IB can't field as many men as the North and they can't control the North with 20k men, that's simply impossible,  the Trident gave the IB and incredible edge,  and as @Rufus Snow and @Arthur Peres said.

Harwyn had allies in his fight against Arrec Durrandon, when he tried to retake the Riverlands, but he was not aided by the Riverlords when he originally conquered the Riverlands (aside from Lord Bracken backstabbing the Blackwoods).

It is not inconceivable that the Ironborn would find allies in the North, too. Especially once the Starks are done for good.

The bottom line is that neither of us can pretend to understand military and political matters better than the characters in-world. Balon is an experienced guy who has been in raiding and conquering business for decades. He knows his stuff. He knows how to subdue people.

That counts for more than readers thinking they can sit on the high horse and tell the man that he stood no chance.

Balon also stood a chance against Robert. He miscalculated Robert's determination to bring the battle to him and the support he could count upon. But in the end it came down to crucial naval battles ... and if Stannis had been crushed by Euron and Victarion the Iron Islands would have retained their independence.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Plus Winter.

Balon would've been defeated, plain and simple, be it the Northern lords finally started to act or be it Winter, Balon wouldn't have never made it to spring, that's just a  fact everyone with common sense realizes.

The Northern lords wouldn't have worked together without a leader to unite them. That much is evident. Else Robb's lords back home would have freed or tried to free Deepwood, Torrhen's Square, and Moat Cailin while Roose was butchering Robb at the Twins - but nothing happened. They had months to bestir themselves and did absolutely nothing.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Not even a chance of that happening, the Riverlords were used to be controlled by foreign powers for centuries, the North is not the Riverlands.

You mean like the Ironborn were for 300 years under the Targaryen yoke? And the North, too, as it happens?

That is a non-argument.

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc he couldn't, but the IB is not a domestic affair is it?? Rodrik had enough men to retake Winterfell from Theon and they would offer their help to retake Deepwood Mote and Moat Caitlin, or do you think the Moountain Clans and the likes are going to refuse ,Ned's children??

Ned's children are a crippled boy and a toddler, basically. They are not leaders, they would be orphans. There would be a struggle between the great houses of the North as to who would rule the North in their minority even if Roose wouldn't come home to kill them all. And such a struggle would leave wounds - whoever won the day would not have everybody behind them. And those people might then like to make common cause with the Ironborn - like the Brackens did back in Harwyn's days - rather than their fellow Northmen.

The clansmen only unite because a king comes to them and asks them for their help. They are not a united force. They need an outsider to rally behind because they will never allow one of their own to lead them all - that's why they are clans, plural, and not only a clan. In the absence of a Stark doing that they would likely not bestir themselves - just as they did nothing to retake Winterfell from Theon.

The North is a hard place. People take care of themselves and their own first - and pursue their own agendas and desires before they do anything else.

Even the Starks, while loved by some of the Northmen, have to project and rule with strength. They have to keep their bannermen in line or else they will defy them to their faces. A man like the Greatjon or the Karstarks (much less Roose Bolton or Lady Dustin) is not going to follow some pup just because his name is Stark. If they show weakness they either turn against them or, if they are not so courageous, they just ignore them.

The Karstarks, Boltons, Umbers, Manderlys, Flints of Widow's Watch, etc. have essentially nothing to fear from the Ironborn in the east. They are under no obligation to come to their aid, especially not if there is no strong central power (i.e. no powerful Stark) in the North who could make them do something.

This is a feudal world where lords care first and foremost about themselves, and about the kings and the kingdom second or third.

And that would be Balon's advantage. He could use that to play the Northmen against each other - just as Harwyn played the Riverlords against each other.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you give me a quote where Balon Greyjoy actually calls himself 'the King in the North'? I know that's how he is referenced in the appendices but I don't recall any instance where Balon lays out what kind of titles he bears and what they mean - we don't even know what 'Lord Reaper of Pyke' means aside from that it sounds pretty cool.

Titles are meaningful if they are backed up by facts, i.e. when people pretending to a throne actually have a claim to the throne. They are just hot air when would-be conquerors - like Aegon I in the case of Dorne - prance around and bear a string of titles that don't fit with reality.

I actually don't have a quote besides of the appendix, the title Lord Reaper of Pyke comes from the days the IB were the terror of Westeros tho.

Yet titles are meaningful because they clearly show an intention, Aegon wanted Dorne and fought for it, just as he fought for the 7K when he crowned himself, he lost but he never renounced to his claim to Dorne, just as none of his descendants did.

 

 

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Harwyn had allies in his fight against Arrec Durrandon, when he tried to retake the Riverlands, but he was not aided by the Riverlords when he originally conquered the Riverlands (aside from Lord Bracken backstabbing the Blackwoods).

When the new king visited his father’s shipyards, he declared that “longships are meant to be sailed.” When he inspected the royal armories, he announced that, “swords are made to be blooded.” King Qhorwyn had oft said that weakness invites attack. When his son gazed across Ironman’s Bay, he saw only weakness and confusion in the riverlands, where the lords of the Trident chafed restlessly beneath the heel of the Storm King, Arrec Durrandon, in distant Storm’s End. Harwyn assembled a host and led it across the bay on a hundred of his father’s longships. Landing unchallenged north of Seagard, they carried their ships overland to the Blue Fork of the Trident, then swept downstream with fire and sword. A few of the river lords took up arms against them; most did not, for they had little love and less loyalty for their liege lord in the stormlands. In those days, the ironborn were thought to be savage fighters at sea but easily put to rout on land. But Harwyn Hoare was not like other ironborn. Tempered in the Disputed Lands, he proved to be as fierce afoot as he was at sea, routing every foe. After he dealt the Blackwoods a crushing defeat, many lords of the Trident declared for him

 

At Fairmarket, Harwyn found himself facing Arrec Durrandon, the young Storm King, leading a host half again the size of his own … but the stormlanders were ill led, weary, and far from home, and the ironmen and riverlords shattered them. King Arrec lost two brothers and half his men, and was lucky to escape with his own life. As he fled south, the smallfolk of the riverlands rose up, and his garrisons were driven out or slaughtered. The broad, fertile riverlands and all their wealth passed from the hands of Storm’s End to those of the ironmen

 

The importance of the Trident to the region was never made clearer then when King Harwyn Hoare, the grandfather of Harren the Black, fought over the riverlands with the Storm King Arrec. The ironborn reavers were able to achieve dominance on the rivers and use them as a means to transport forces swiftly between far-flung strongholds and battlefields. The Storm King suffered his worst defeat at the crossing of the Blue Fork near Fairmarket, where the longships proved decisive in allowing the ironborn to seize the crossing despite Arrec’s superior numbers.

 

The rout of Lady Blackwood’s host spelled the end of the riverlords’ resistance to the ironborn, but not the end of the fighting, for word of the invasion had finally reached King Arrec Durrandon at distant Storm’s End. Assembling a mighty host, the Storm King raced north to meet the foe. So eager was this young king to come to grips with the ironmen that he soon outpaced his own baggage train—a grievous mistake, as Arrec learned when he crossed the Blackwater and found every castle shut against him and neither food nor fodder to be found, only burning towns and blackened fields. Many of the riverlords had joined the ironmen by then. Under the command of the Lords Goodbrook, Paege, and Vypren, they slipped across the Blackwater and fell upon the slow-moving baggage train before it reached the river, putting King Arrec’s rear guard to flight and seizing his supplies. Thus it was a stumbling, starving host of stormlanders who finally faced Harwyn Hardhand at Fairmarket, where Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and a score of other riverlords had joined him. King Arrec had half again as many fighters as his foes, but his men were weary from days of marching, confused and dispirited, and their king soon showed himself to be both headstrong and indecisive. When battle was joined, the result was a shattering defeat for the stormlanders. Arrec himself escaped the carnage, but two of his brothers died in the fighting, and the rule of Storm’s End over the lands of the Trident came to a sudden, bloody end

 

He had the complicity of the Riverlords, who were done with Arrec, he had the aid of the Brackens, who backstabbed the only threat he had in the Riverlands and then the rest fell in line, he himself was a very capable leader, he had the aid of the Riverlords against Arrec, the King himself being a poor commander, and even the smallfolk was against Arrec.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Balon was favoring Asha back in ACoK - but we don't know what Balon thought of Theon after he had taken Winterfell and avenged his brothers by seemingly butchering the Stark boys. Was he proud of Theon then? Did he want to get him back? We don't know because we never meet him again.

Fair enough.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 It is not inconceivable that the Ironborn would find allies in the North, too. Especially once the Starks are done for good.

 

It is, not northmen is going to help them and the Starks weren't done for good, Sansa, "Arya" and Rickon were all alive.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The bottom line is that neither of us can pretend to understand military and political matters better than the characters in-world. Balon is an experienced guy who has been in raiding and conquering business for decades. He knows his stuff. He knows how to subdue people.

 That counts for more than readers thinking they can sit on the high horse and tell the man that he stood no chance.

We can, the special pleading matters less and nothing, Balon is an idiot, he's being depicted as fool and everyone thinks he's a fool carried by vengeance, his plans to conquer and hold the North were doomed and he's not going to subdue the northmen.

Characters in universe also sit on the high horse and say he is doomed.

What had Balon conquered before the war?? I don't doubt for a second Balon could raid the North or even take places like Cape Kraken or Bear Island but that's not what he does, so no, the special pleading is not changing nothing.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Balon also stood a chance against Robert. He miscalculated Robert's determination to bring the battle to him and the support he could count upon. But in the end it came down to crucial naval battles ... and if Stannis had been crushed by Euron and Victarion the Iron Islands would have retained their independence.

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He never stood a chance against Robert, comparatively speaking, Robert had infinite resources and Balon only a few, if Stannis had been defeated, Robert would simply build an even bigger fleet to give it another go, yes Balon  miscalculated, that's a common trope.

Rodrik Greyjoy couldn't even take Seagard, how could he hope stood a chance against Robert??

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Northern lords wouldn't have worked together without a leader to unite them. That much is evident. Else Robb's lords back home would have freed or tried to free Deepwood, Torrhen's Square, and Moat Cailin while Roose was butchering Robb at the Twins - but nothing happened. They had months to bestir themselves and did absolutely nothing.

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Yeah, thanks to Theon and the Boltons.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean like the Ironborn were for 300 years under the Targaryen yoke? And the North, too, as it happens?

That is a non-argument.

I don't even unerstand this converse error.

Do the IB have dragons?? Do they have the implicit acceptance of the North thus not having to worry about not having nukes??

The IB??

“A long cold swim, for a crown you cannot keep. Your father had more courage than sense. The Old Way served the isles well when we were one small kingdom amongst many, but Aegon’s Conquest put an end to that. Balon refused to see what was plain before him. The Old Way died with Black Harren and his sons.”

 

Do the IB have the resources to submit or to win over the North?? Neither of them were controlled by a foreign power, they were added to a one much bigger kingdom.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned's children are a crippled boy and a toddler, basically. They are not leaders, they would be orphans. There would be a struggle between the great houses of the North as to who would rule the North in their minority even if Roose wouldn't come home to kill them all. And such a struggle would leave wounds - whoever won the day would not have everybody behind them. And those people might then like to make common cause with the Ironborn - like the Brackens did back in Harwyn's days - rather than their fellow Northmen.

 

There wouldn't be any fight, the cripple boy would decide or it would be decided by majority, nor would they fight with the IB at home.

The North is not the Riverlands, no northern lord would make common cause with the IB, so that point it's moot, that simply would never happen.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The clansmen only unite because a king comes to them and asks them for their help. They are not a united force. They need an outsider to rally behind because they will never allow one of their own to lead them all - that's why they are clans, plural, and not only a clan. In the absence of a Stark doing that they would likely not bestir themselves - just as they did nothing to retake Winterfell from Theon.

The North is a hard place. People take care of themselves and their own first - and pursue their own agendas and desires before they do anything else.

Even the Starks, while loved by some of the Northmen, have to project and rule with strength. They have to keep their bannermen in line or else they will defy them to their faces. A man like the Greatjon or the Karstarks (much less Roose Bolton or Lady Dustin) is not going to follow some pup just because his name is Stark. If they show weakness they either turn against them or, if they are not so courageous, they just ignore them.

The Karstarks, Boltons, Umbers, Manderlys, Flints of Widow's Watch, etc. have essentially nothing to fear from the Ironborn in the east. They are under no obligation to come to their aid, especially not if there is no strong central power (i.e. no powerful Stark) in the North who could make them do something.

This is a feudal world where lords care first and foremost about themselves, and about the kings and the kingdom second or third.

The clansmen would unite if say, a regent come to them and ask them their help, the North is a hard place true enough, but they don't like foreigners, the Andal wars showed that and they don't like invaders parading in their lands, so sooner than later they would just kick them out if only to continue being assholes between themselves.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And that would be Balon's advantage. He could use that to play the Northmen against each other - just as Harwyn played the Riverlords against each other.

If he only was that smart, the northern lords not caring about each other is not the same that the northern lords falling for Balon's bs, they are not going to play his game, not that he ever had one.

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Balon was favoring Asha back in ACoK - but we don't know what Balon thought of Theon after he had taken Winterfell and avenged his brothers by seemingly butchering the Stark boys. Was he proud of Theon then? Did he want to get him back? We don't know because we never meet him again.

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his last words about Theon are the following:

They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. “The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared,” the king had said. “I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

Balon never changed his mind about Theon... wich is more than moronic, since Theon has more achiviments than Balon himself as a warrior.

[Rufus Snow]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The bottom line is that neither of us can pretend to understand military and political matters better than the characters in-world.

OK, so you won't take the opinions of posters, how about those self-same in-world characters, how about some who were a bit closer to Balon than you are?

 

 

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A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

He had said as much to his captains at Moat Cailin, when first they urged him to claim the Seastone Chair. "Balon's sons are dead," Red Ralf Stonehouse had argued, "and Asha is a woman. You were your brother's strong right arm, you must pick up the sword that he let fall." When Victarion reminded them that Balon had commanded him to hold the Moat against the northmen, Ralf Kenning said, "The wolves are broken, lord. What good to win this swamp and lose the isles?" And Ralf the Limper added, "The Crow's Eye has been too long away. He knows us not."

 

Euron Greyjoy, King of the Isles and the North. The thought woke an old rage in his heart, but still . . .

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A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

Victarion chuckled. "This Lady Glover plays you for a fool, niece. Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are ours. Why hand back anything? Winterfell is burnt and broken, and the Young Wolf rots headless in the earth. We will have all the north, as your lord father dreamed."

 

"When longships learn to row through trees, perhaps. A fisherman may hook a grey leviathan, but it will drag him down to death unless he cuts it loose. The north is too large for us to hold, and too full of northmen."

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A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

"If you liked the Shadow so well, go back there," called out pink-cheeked Qarl the Maid, one of Asha's champions.

 

The Crow's Eye ignored him. "My little brother would finish Balon's war, and claim the north. My sweet niece would give us peace and pinecones." His blue lips twisted in a smile. "Asha prefers victory to defeat. Victarion wants a kingdom, not a few scant yards of earth. From me, you shall have both.

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A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

"A wolf is not a kraken," Victarion objected. "What the kraken grasps it does not lose, be it longship or leviathan."

 

"And what have we grasped, Nuncle? The north? What is that, but leagues and leagues of leagues and leagues, far from the sound of the sea? We have taken Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, even Winterfell. What do we have to show for it?"

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A Feast for Crows - The Drowned Man

For half a heartbeat even Aeron was swept away by the boldness of his words. The priest had dreamed the same dream, when first he'd seen the red comet in the sky. We shall sweep over the green lands with fire and sword, root out the seven gods of the septons and the white trees of the northmen . . .

 

"Crow's Eye," Asha called, "did you leave your wits at Asshai? If we cannot hold the north—and we cannot—how can we win the whole of the Seven Kingdoms?"

Balon's family seem pretty convinced he was after the whole North, and at least two maybe three of them were at his war councils. You weren't.

[Bernie Mac]

20 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

OK, so you won't take the opinions of posters, how about those self-same in-world characters, how about some who were a bit closer to Balon than you are?

 

 

Balon's family seem pretty convinced he was after the whole North, and at least two maybe three of them were at his war councils. You weren't.

He wanted more land, he does not have to rule every blade of grass in the North to call himself ruler of the North.  Robb is called King of the Riverlands by his followers, at no point did he rule all of the Riverlands, Joffrey was still called the king of Westeros despite various parts of him rebelling.

 

"He ought to be offering fealty," snapped Cersei. "By what right does he call himself king?"

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore.

 

 

I genuinely think you and others are quibbling about something that does not seem to be an issue for the people in the book or even our own history. William the Conqueror was crowned King of England long before he had control of England.

 

Balons' primary goal was more land, we see that it is Balon who initiated negotiations with the Crown for peace, it is Balon who councils his daughter, his chosen heir, about the wisdom of putting aside a crown to keep a head. Balon and Asha's plan was always to have more land.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

He wanted more land, he does not have to rule every blade of grass in the North to call himself ruler of the North.  Robb is called King of the Riverlands by his followers, at no point did he rule all of the Riverlands, Joffrey was still called the king of Westeros despite various parts of him rebelling.

 

"He ought to be offering fealty," snapped Cersei. "By what right does he call himself king?"

"By right of conquest," Lord Tywin said. "King Balon has strangler's fingers round the Neck. Robb Stark's heirs are dead, Winterfell is fallen, and the ironmen hold Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, and most of the Stony Shore.

 

 

I genuinely think you and others are quibbling about something that does not seem to be an issue for the people in the book or even our own history. William the Conqueror was crowned King of England long before he had control of England.

 

Balons' primary goal was more land, we see that it is Balon who initiated negotiations with the Crown for peace, it is Balon who councils his daughter, his chosen heir, about the wisdom of putting aside a crown to keep a head. Balon and Asha's plan was always to have more land.

But there is mixing apples with oranges, Robb would've ruled the Riverlands had he prevailed and Joffey would've ruled the 7K  had he preveailed, Balon does have to rule every or indeed most of the North to call himself rler of the North and William the Conqueror was crowned King of England because he had every intention of taking it.

And he started negotiations because he saw he standed to loose everything he gained.

[Bernie Mac]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

But there is mixing apples with oranges, Robb would've ruled the Riverlands had he prevailed and Joffey would've ruled the 7K  had he preveailed,

As could have Balon. He's patient, he was good to wait a year for Winterfell, he may have waited even longer for other parts of the North.

 

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Balon does have to rule every or indeed most of the North to call himself rler of the North and William the Conqueror was crowned King of England because he had every intention of taking it.

No, not really. But he could have done, as many conquerors did in history they made deals with the local Lords, made compromises for them to be seen as rulers.

It is not about taking every settlement by force, or even taking or having control of every settlement, but as Tywin points out, he had the capital, control of the West coast and enough land to be viewed as the King of the North. That is written in the book, said by an enemy not someone trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

In the books it is accepted by some factions that Balon was the King in the North. I get that a lot of fans are angry that the Ironborn attacked the North, but ultimately he was successful. It was the correct choice for him to make.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

And he started negotiations because he saw he standed to loose everything he gained.

No, he started negotiations because he was in a position to get something from the Crown. He had something to trade and the Small Council at the time was in favor of accepting his terms. Both Mace and Redwyne were happy to accept his terms. Unfortunately for Balon Roose had already made a deal with Tywin first.

[frenin]

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As could have Balon. He's patient, he was good to wait a year for Winterfell, he may have waited even longer for other parts of the North.

But do we agree his aim was the whole North??

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, not really. But he could have done, as many conquerors did in history they made deals with the local Lords, made compromises for them to be seen as rulers.

Yes, really, you can't call yourself King, only by having the Stony Shore and  Deepwote Mote, that approach wouldn't work either, the Northeners wouldn't want Balon, local lords  or Greats and  Balon  seeked submission, not acceptance and  by making thralls and  salt wives he sure as hell wouldn't be seen  as ruler.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is not about taking every settlement by force, or even taking or having control of every settlement, but as Tywin points out, he had the capital, control of the West coast and enough land to be viewed as the King of the North. That is written in the book, said by an enemy not someone trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

Yet Balon  himself talks about taking  every settlement by force,that's also written in the books.

Balon  didn't have the capital, Winterfell had become a non factor thanks  of its  sack, he only has the Stony Shore, Tywin says that he has enough land to call himself King, not even remotely said he had enough land to be seen as King of the North.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

In the books it is accepted by some factions that Balon was the King in the North. I get that a lot of fans are angry that the Ironborn attacked the North, but ultimately he was successful. It was the correct choice for him to make.

Whose factions?? The only ones i can recall  are the Redwynes and  Mace,  in whose case it was more of a why not than anything else and  perharps Jon when he seeked help??

I don't care about that non sense and  i already said that Balon  could've been more succesful taking  Cape Kraken and  Bear  Island, i'm just saying the obvious and  what even the characters say, Balon  spoils wouldn't make it through spring, he could've never hold those conquest, so saying he was succesful is relative because he didn't live  to fail again but it wasn't the correct  choice to make, but the North would be so weary of war after repel him that they couldn't take the war on his shores, do at least he'd save  his people an other bloody retribution.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, he started negotiations because he was in a position to get something from the Crown. He had something to trade and the Small Council at the time was in favor of accepting his terms. Both Mace and Redwyne were happy to accept his terms. Unfortunately for Balon Roose had already made a deal with Tywin first.

He wasn't, He started negotiations because if the crown were ever to enforce their will in the North,he'd be the first lamb to sacrifice, so as he saw Robb done, he wanted to save  whatever he had before others took it from him.

[Lord Varys]

On 10/8/2019 at 5:38 AM, Arthur Peres said:

his last words about Theon are the following:

They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. “The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared,” the king had said. “I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

Balon never changed his mind about Theon... wich is more than moronic, since Theon has more achiviments than Balon himself as a warrior.

Oh, yeah, I forgot that one. Although we have to keep in mind that this would have been after Theon turned out to be a failure who couldn't hold Winterfell - and it might have been even after 'the first piece of prince' might have arrived at Pyke (Roose as a piece at hand when he meets with Cat and Robb a while later, at the Twins).

Might be he was proud of him for a moment. But perhaps (or more likely) not. Still, though, my point is that Theon fucked with Balon's plans. He did not want to take on Torrhen's Square or Winterfell with as few men as he did.

17 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

OK, so you won't take the opinions of posters, how about those self-same in-world characters, how about some who were a bit closer to Balon than you are?

Balon's family seem pretty convinced he was after the whole North, and at least two maybe three of them were at his war councils. You weren't.

Well, Vic's knowledge of geography isn't all that thorough ;-). The North is a vast piece of land, and Balon did rule a chunk of it. If that's enough for him to see himself as ruler of the North who am I to contradict him there. Aegon I apparently also ruled Dorne.

My point simply is that (1) we don't know anything about Balon's ultimate plans how to take whatever he wanted to take in the North in addition to the places he plans to conquer in ACoK nor (2) nor when exactly he planned to do that and with what troops and means exactly.

He seems to have had a plan.

The idea that armchair strategists can accurately judge a plan they know nothing about is not very convincing. Even more so when it is quite clear that the North wouldn't have had a competent or universally accepted leader to counter any further Ironborn invasions, much less so the strength at sea to bring the war to them. Thanks to Robb, the Northmen wouldn't even have had an advantage in the cavalry department - the one thing on landbased warfare the Ironborn are, for the most part, weak.

One can imagine a decade of continuous warfare at which end the Ironborn have indeed conquered all the North. That is imaginable. It is even imaginable that they can hold it if they play their cards right and strike the right deals with the right lords.

What is a less likely/not very convincing scenario is the idea that the North would 'magically' unite against the Ironborn threat while they have no adult Stark to lead them.

The reason why it would be stupid for Balon to attack the West - and why it is stupid for a non-sorcerer Euron to attack the Reach - is that those regions do have the resources to regroup, drive the Ironborn back into the sea, build fleets, carry the war to the Iron Islands, and but the Ironborn to the sword by the thousands. The Northmen do not have those resources.

And Tywin is a very vindictive man. If Balon had taken him in the read - like Dalton did Jason Lannister back during the Dance - Tywin may have devoted the 1-2 decades not only on vengeance but to the entire destruction of the Ironborn as a people. And Balon correctly predicting Tywin would eventually crush Robb Stark and his other enemies also meant that Tywin would, eventually, have the resources of most (if not all) of Westeros at his disposal. He would not need to build a fleet to challenge the Ironborn, he would just command the Redwynes to the fighting for him. And once Tywin had his troops on the Iron Islands he would show them as much mercy as he showed the Reynes. Perhaps even less.

Balon learned his lesson during his Rebellion - and targeted a weaker enemy the second time.

[Loose Bolt]

I suspect that general winter would have wiped out any IB who would have not left the North b4 western coast had frozen and so made impossible to use any ships at northern parts of Sunset Sea. Or basically they would have been as successful as Napoleon's Grande Armee at Russia 1812.

[frenin]

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 He seems to have had a plan.

 

He also seemed to have a plan during his first Rebellion, it was a bad plan, that's like saying we should trust Cersei when she stopped paying the Iron Bank and rearmed the Faith even when everyone is telling, is a stupid idea.

 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 The idea that armchair strategists can accurately judge a plan they know nothing about is not very convincing. Even more so when it is quite clear that the North wouldn't have had a competent or universally accepted leader to counter any further Ironborn invasions, much less so the strength at sea to bring the war to them. Thanks to Robb, the Northmen wouldn't even have had an advantage in the cavalry department - the one thing on landbased warfare the Ironborn are, for the most part, weak.

 

Well, everyone with common sense seemed pretty convinced Balon is doomed and the Northmen had the advantage in numbers, they play at home and with the terrain, the IB also can't fight during Winter and again, Rodrik or any leader,  he needs to be more competent than Balon which is not that hard, chosen by Bran or by a majority of the Lords if Bran just summon them, would serve just fine, the Ironborn are in general weak in landbased warfare.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 One can imagine a decade of continuous warfare at which end the Ironborn have indeed conquered all the North. That is imaginable. It is even imaginable that they can hold it if they play their cards right and strike the right deals with the right lords.

 

How?? Honestly how??

 

Victarion chuckled. "This Lady Glover plays you for a fool, niece. Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are ours. Why hand back anything? Winterfell is burnt and broken, and the Young Wolf rots headless in the earth. We will have all the north, as your lord father dreamed."

 

"When longships learn to row through trees, perhaps. A fisherman may hook a grey leviathan, but it will drag him down to death unless he cuts it loose. The north is too large for us to hold, and too full of northmen."

 

 

The North is a cold land—much of it rising moorlands and high plains giving way to mountains in its northern reaches—and this makes it far less fertile than the reaches of the south. Snow has been known to fall there even in summer, and it is deadly in winter.

 

How would 18-20k Ironborn conquer all the North?? Ie, going far into the mainland, around leagues and leagues of nothing until they find a castle?? How would the IB even survive in winter in a land they've never been and it's as bif as the whole south and actually keep having the men to continue the fight?? How is that none of the northmen had taken advantage of the terrain and their numbers to oust them?? How, how, how...

And Balon and his brother's plans was pretty straight forward, revive the Old way, there is no deal to made there, either salt wife and thralls or not.

Not any northener would accept them as rulers anyway.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 What is a less likely/not very convincing scenario is the idea that the North would 'magically' unite against the Ironborn threat while they have no adult Stark to lead them.

 

Not that magically, if the IB is threat to everyone, everyone will fight, just asthey did during the Andal invasions even when the entire wasn't yet under the Stark yoke.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 The reason why it would be stupid for Balon to attack the West - and why it is stupid for a non-sorcerer Euron to attack the Reach - is that those regions do have the resources to regroup, drive the Ironborn back into the sea, build fleets, carry the war to the Iron Islands, and but the Ironborn to the sword by the thousands. The Northmen do not have those resources.

 

Partially agree there, the North right now doesn't have the resources to carry the war to Iron Islands, they do have however the resources to regroup and drive the Ironborn back into the sea.

And honestly the only thing the Northmen would need to do is let them face the winter in Moat Caitlin and the Stony shore, after that kill the rest, they don't even need a proper general to di that.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that general winter would have wiped out any IB who would have not left the North b4 western coast had frozen and so made impossible to use any ships at northern parts of Sunset Sea. Or basically they would have been as successful as Napoleon's Grande Armee at Russia 1812.

That is not particularly likely in light of the fact that Robb the Moron caused the Northmen to be ill-prepared for winter themselves - which the Ironborn are not. And they seized all the winter provisions in Deepwood and Torrhen's Square.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

He also seemed to have a plan during his first Rebellion, it was a bad plan, that's like saying we should trust Cersei when she stopped paying the Iron Bank and rearmed the Faith even when everyone is telling, is a stupid idea.

The first rebellion could have worked. He lost battles - which happens in war. Saying a plan was bad because you lost some battles due to circumstances you cannot control is stupid. At least if if wasn't obvious from the start that you would lose. Even after Balon realized Robert would bring the war to him there was still a good chance he could crush the royal fleet.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Well, everyone with common sense seemed pretty convinced Balon is doomed and the Northmen had the advantage in numbers, they play at home and with the terrain, the IB also can't fight during Winter and again, Rodrik or any leader,  he needs to be more competent than Balon which is not that hard, chosen by Bran or by a majority of the Lords if Bran just summon them, would serve just fine, the Ironborn are in general weak in landbased warfare.

No, the only people who are saying stuff like that are those who don't want to continue the campaign in the North - i.e. Asha and Euron. Euron honestly believes he can conquer all the Seven Kingdoms only with his Ironborn, his magics, and, perhaps, Dany and her dragons.

And stop preaching about Bran. The Northmen despise the cripple, they would never follow him or accept anything he says or does. That is the sad truth. Even the Karstarks despise Bran, back when they are the closest allies of the Starks.

It is ridiculous to assume that 5,000+ Northmen - which are left after Robb's army is stranded in the south - could ever try to counter a massive Ironborn landing on multiple fronts.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Not that magically, if the IB is threat to everyone, everyone will fight, just asthey did during the Andal invasions even when the entire wasn't yet under the Stark yoke.

Whatever Andals attacked the North before there were Andal kingdoms in the south seem to have been more raiders rather than men who wanted to conquer and migrate to the North. The real Andal attacks on the North came later, from the Andal kingdoms in the south.

And the Starks had just united the North under their rule when the first Andals came.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Partially agree there, the North right now doesn't have the resources to carry the war to Iron Islands, they do have however the resources to regroup and drive the Ironborn back into the sea.

And honestly the only thing the Northmen would need to do is let them face the winter in Moat Caitlin and the Stony shore, after that kill the rest, they don't even need a proper general to di that.

No, they clearly lack those resources, especially after Robb took the bulk of the Northern forces down south. The Northmen don't even properly free Deepwood and Moat Cailin - they just get rid of token forces, not even proper garrisons.

[frenin]

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The first rebellion could have worked. He lost battles - which happens in war. Saying a plan was bad because you lost some battles due to circumstances you cannot control is stupid. At least if if wasn't obvious from the start that you would lose. Even after Balon realized Robert would bring the war to him there was still a good chance he could crush the royal fleet.

Saying that a dude facing a King with 8 times his resources is not stupid is stupid, if Balon  ever could defeat the royal  fleet, Robert would make new ones, Balon  just couldn't win a war of a attrition against Robert, that's just common sense, even if the Reach and  Dorne didn't support Robert, Robert had the full support of 5 Kingdoms.

The only reason why Balon  could ever think Robert could be defeated is if he thought he could make a new fleet just as Robert, Robert couldn't afford new fleets and  that's just stupid.

Yes, Balón is stupid.

 

 

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, the only people who are saying stuff like that are those who don't want to continue the campaign in the North - i.e. Asha and Euron. Euron honestly believes he can conquer all the Seven Kingdoms only with his Ironborn, his magics, and, perhaps, Dany and her dragons.

And stop preaching about Bran. The Northmen despise the cripple, they would never follow him or accept anything he says or does. That is the sad truth. Even the Karstarks despise Bran, back when they are the closest allies of the Starks.

It is ridiculous to assume that 5,000+ Northmen - which are left after Robb's army is stranded in the south - could ever try to counter a massive Ironborn landing on multiple fronts.

Or Tywin, or Theon who knows the land far better than Balon  would ever be and yes, Euron is also mad that doesn't mean he' s wrong, btw I don't remember ever forsake the North.

Asha  is the only one that seems to realize they can't win a war of attrition against the North, the North would follow Bran, or whoever Stark figurehead, if they are facing an invasion  in grand  scale, that's the sad  truth, nor they despise him much more Greatjpn despised Robb before the Greatjon incident, in fact the only Karstark  soldier who laughs at Bran soon is more worried about Summer, you're delluding yourself a great deal  here, when Winterfell is taken, most of the North sent men and  they had zero problems about following Rodrik's orders, most of the North want vengeance for the death of the despised cripple Bran, the idea that they would just let themselves be conquered is ludicrous

 

... Do you really believe that in the North only are 5000 fighting people??  Do you really believe the North manpower is just that!! Seriously?? Don't you think that the rulers would force levies?? That the people in the Stony Shore, would migrate  to the mainland to rally onto  one banner ??

Massive IB?? Are they coming with 50-100k strong?? Because thinking that 18k can take the whole North or even a good chunk of it, is funny just to think otherwise, if the Ironborn ever were to make it far from the sea, and  that would've been a real show, they were doomed.

The Ironborn are breaking themselves trying to take places  like Barrowton or Whiteharbor, they are breaking themselves trying to find the Rills and  the Ironborn going far into the mainland to take the rest of the North is...

The logistics  needed to take and hold a place like the North or  Done, or a good part of them are too  big to believe you can be serious.

 

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not particularly likely in light of the fact that Robb the Moron caused the Northmen to be ill-prepared for winter themselves - which the Ironborn are not. And they seized all the winter provisions in Deepwood and Torrhen's Square.

The Ironborn are ill  prepared  for a winter  they don't know nothing about, this is just common sense, the Northmen  would rather  die a kamikaze death than just starved  to death anyway and  they IB simply can't hold lands like the Stony shore  or and  especially Moat  Caitilin during winter, which is a bummer because they desperatly need hold Moat  Caitlin.

And to where are they raiding?? How would they face the winter  blizzards, how are they forcing their march  through ice and  a frozen land they don't know nothing about?? How are they surviving the ambushes and  futuro counter attacks, are they just freezing their asses in a Castle too small for them, this dooming themselves or are they  going to fight in winter  thus  dooming themselves??

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whatever Andals attacked the North before there were Andal kingdoms in the south seem to have been more raiders rather than men who wanted to conquer and migrate to the North. The real Andal attacks on the North came later, from the Andal kingdoms in the south.

And the Starks had just united the North under their rule when the first Andals came.

They seem to have been exactly the same type, warlords coming for new lands.

 

After the defeat of the Boltons, the last of their Northern rivals, the greatest threats to the dominion
of House Stark came by sea. The northern boundary of the Stark domains was protected by the Wall
and the men of the Night’s Watch, whilst to the south, the only way through the swamps of the Neck
passed below the ruined towers and sinking walls of the great fortress called Moat Cailin. Even when
the Marsh Kings held the Moat, their crannogmen stood staunch against any invaders from the south,
allying with the Barrow Kings, Red Kings, and Kings of Winter as need be to turn back any southron
lord who sought to attack the North. And once King Rickard Stark added the Neck to his domain,
Moat Cailin proved even more imposing—a bulwark against the powers of the south. Few sought to
push past it, and the histories say that none ever succeeded.
The North’s long, ragged coastlines, both to the east and the west, remained vulnerable, however;
it would be there where the rule of Winterfell would be most oft threatened … by ironborn in the
west and Andals in the east.
Crossing the narrow sea in their hundreds and thousands, the longships of the Andals made
landings in the North just as they did to the south, but wherever they came ashore, the Starks and their
bannermen fell upon them and drove them back into the sea. King Theon Stark, known to history as the
Hungry Wolf, turned back the greatest of these threats, making common cause with the Boltons to smash the Andal warlord Argos Sevenstar at the Battle of the Weeping Water.

 

The northeners would unite against any enemy who poses a threat against all of them and their lifestyle as they have always done, that's just common sense, the Yronwoods hated the Martells but they were rloyals when the dragons went for them.

23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, they clearly lack those resources, especially after Robb took the bulk of the Northern forces down south. The Northmen don't even properly free Deepwood and Moat Cailin - they just get rid of token forces, not even proper garrisons.

They clearly don't, their resources are more sparced after the fight and  if there is only token forces what of it?? How many northmen tried to cree Deepwod prior Dance??

[Arthur Peres]

21 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The reason why it would be stupid for Balon to attack the West - and why it is stupid for a non-sorcerer Euron to attack the Reach - is that those regions do have the resources to regroup, drive the Ironborn back into the sea, build fleets, carry the war to the Iron Islands, and but the Ironborn to the sword by the thousands. The Northmen do not have those resources.

 And Tywin is a very vindictive man. If Balon had taken him in the read - like Dalton did Jason Lannister back during the Dance - Tywin may have devoted the 1-2 decades not only on vengeance but to the entire destruction of the Ironborn as a people. And Balon correctly predicting Tywin would eventually crush Robb Stark and his other enemies also meant that Tywin would, eventually, have the resources of most (if not all) of Westeros at his disposal. He would not need to build a fleet to challenge the Ironborn, he would just command the Redwynes to the fighting for him. And once Tywin had his troops on the Iron Islands he would show them as much mercy as he showed the Reynes. Perhaps even less.

As long as Balon is calling himself King, Tywin is comming for him sooner or later, Theon already warned Balon about it and his was too dumb to take notice.

Balon should have either not declared his independence and demand control of the lands his seize in the north, or called himself king, declara independence take Robb's offer, and demanded some garantees for his support like some lands in Cape Kraken, like was Asha's idea in the Kingsmoot.

The mess he came up with, makes no sense at all, and that's why he is mocked or called crazy by everybody.

“King Balon’s longships are occupied for the nonce,” Lord Tywin said politely, “as are we. Greyjoy demands half the kingdom as the price of alliance, but what will he do to earn it? Fight the Starks? He is doing that already. Why should we pay for what he has given us for free?”

“Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens"

 Balon could be deaf to things he did not wish to hear.

.Balon refused to see what was plain before him

Balon had been blind in some respects. A brave man but a bad lord

“Call yourself King of the Iron islands, no one will care . . . until the wars are over, and the victor looks about and spies the old fool perched off his shore with an iron crown on his head.”

“Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is maddest of them all,”

 

[dsjj251]

Lets be clear, Balon didnt actually capture the North, he took 4 castles. 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/5/2019 at 9:45 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Is it idiotic to own more land then Harren?

Others have pointed out that the Riverlands are much more fertile than other the North, while the vast amounts of Northern land aren't that valuable. Another point thing is that the Riverlands are, as the name implies, full of rivers, which Ironborn/Vikings are able to navigate in their longships. The North is far less suited to their talents. Finally, the RIverlands have been repeatedly conquered by other people, whereas the north remains religiously distinct precisely because it resisted any incursion of southrons.

On 10/6/2019 at 11:16 AM, Hugorfonics said:

1. Poorer then Riverlands? Like Darry? Lol the Riverlands is in a worse state now then when Aemond one eye was flying about. Im pretty sure the Riverlands is in a worse state then the vastness of northern forests. Probably even worse then Dorne, the weakest and poorest kingdom

Pre-modern history was characterized by Malthusian conditions. You want to control fertile land, and if you kill the people currently on said land, it can just be repopulated. The North is permanently less desirable than the Riverlands.

On 10/6/2019 at 11:48 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Because of the old gods? Im pretty sure its because of Moat Cailan

The Ironborn got around it with ships, but they're not the only people with ships. However, even after you bypass that it's still hard to hold northern territory.

On 10/7/2019 at 9:17 AM, Lord Varys said:

It was autumn when he started his campaign, not winter. And winter doesn't give the Northmen magical advantages. Thanks to Robb's war they are not prepared for winter, and lost about 20,000 men in the south.

Napoleon and Hitler both learned of the advantages the defenders of a wintry land have during winter. Those advantages don't depend on magic, unless you've got a very unusual take on Russian history.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Napoleon and Hitler both learned of the advantages the defenders of a wintry land have during winter. Those advantages don't depend on magic, unless you've got a very unusual take on Russian history.

They were both ill-prepared with the Russians effectively using a scorched earth strategy. This obviously didn't happen when Balon invaded the North, did it? They didn't even try something like that. Instead, thanks to Robb, the Northmen themselves do no longer have sufficient winter provisions for themselves - and the Ironborn captured what they had at the castles they took.

Unless the Ironborn started stupid campaigns in the middle of winter they would be perfectly safe within the castles they took. And they could have taken more castles during autumn if Balon hadn't died and his campaign had continued.