Why does Balon Greyjoy want to attack the North?

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Because their soverign is alive, rallying support and supplying arms

No, their sovereign had actually given up and  bent the knee.

 

7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats just a story. Never happened in the series.

That's a historical  fact and  in the series Winter hadnt come yet and  the moment Winter comes, you have the Mountain clans  rather dying fighting the Boltons than freezing their asses to death.

 

13 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Winter Wolves were led by Stark

Roderick Dustin of House Stark??

 

14 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

What are you arguing? I said Starks bannermen havent and will not take the field with no one to lead them. And as you say, Robbs in the south

And i'm saying Starks bannermen have and will take the field if they feel threatened, or didn't the Northern Lords send levies to take Winterfell again??

 

18 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If their father is ironborn then so are they. Its like an American lol

And their family are slave.

 

 

Thralls don't decide their own destiny, their lives are worst than simple smallfolk.

 

Salto wives... I mean...

 

 

 

[The Young Maester]

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, we were through that some pages back. Balon either wanted the entire North or as much as he could swallow. He expected Winterfell to defy him for about a year or so - which only makes sense if he intended to besiege and eventually take it.

Balon no doubt wanted to take as much as he could hold onto. He thought Winterfell wasn't strong enough to defy the iron born (which we clearly see he was wrong). But he never expected he could take the castle. No doubt even the iron born have heard of winterfells impregnable defences. He probably just though Winterfell only had a garrison force.

Actually by taking Winterfell theon pretty much saved balons campaign. Because he was responsible for toppling the temporary leaders of the north (Rodriks death and stark kids). 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 How he could have hoped to conquer lands in the east of the North I really don't see - but this isn't evidence that he may not have tried after he had secured his new domains in the west.

He probably never dreamed of taking lands in the east. Thats just too much land to patrol, conquer, and hold. You'd need around 30k men in order to hold onto the entire north. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We know next to nothing about the Rills - but there are sign that the Ironborn may have boats and ships light enough to make use of them in some military capacity in shallow rivers.

No guarantee that this would work - but we cannot dismiss it out of hand.

We can see the rivers it has, and it ain't much. If the north had an abundance of rivers, it wouldn't be so piss poor. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But as you said - they were pretty far away. And I actually doubt that Vic and his Iron Fleet men would march up from the Fever and Moat Cailin to attack Barrowton. An attack on those lands would likely have come from the sea - with a new contingent of troops.

Dosent matter Lords will always have riders patrolling their lands. The distance is bad for the attacker but not the defender. Moat Cailin is bordering the barrowlands, so it's natural for riders to be patrolling the lands. Don't forget Lord stout is much closer to moat Cailin than barrowton, which means extra care would have to be taken.

 

 

 

 

 

2

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, they would attack castles piece by piece, not challenge whatever army a lord could amass at a crucial place. If Lady Dustin or the Ryswell marshaled an army at a particular castle to protect that, they would target the place that are now less/no longer defended.

The way I see it the iron born can only challenge the ryswells, dustins, mormonts, and moutnain clans. Mormonts are obviously going to lose and wont receive any assistance. If the Iron born land anywhere in the rills or barrowlands, theyd be facing an army whether they like it or not. The Northern mountain clans would be suicide and useless to attack. 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, they would attack castles piece by piece, not challenge whatever army a lord could amass at a crucial place. If Lady Dustin or the Ryswell marshaled an army at a particular castle to protect that, they would target the place that are now less/no longer defended.

 Could mean that Barrowton would thus be able to hold out longer, but the outlying Dustin keeps and castle would then be taken or destroyed. And they would, of course, burn all the empty or not so empty (but defenseless) villages and settlements they could find.

First things first. They need to meet the dustin-ryswell army in order to even take barrowton. I somehow dont see two powerful houses leaving their villagers at the mercy of the iron born. 

If lady dustin and lord ryswell marshalled an army at barrowton, and the iron born instead decided to attack the rills. How fast would you think they'd be able to respond? Id say pretty damn fast seeing as how they can clearly see the iron born landing on the ryswell shores. And if they decide to instead go for the stony shore, then good for them since you've got nothing left on that shore.

What other castles are there to take on the western shore?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean women and children and old men are great warriors? That doesn't make sense. Most able-bodied men would be dead with Robb, Stark butcherers at Roose's side, or scattered in the Riverlands.

45k-19k= 26k. If George said the North still has more to give, than ill trust his words.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The North is a vast land and empty land - most settlements seem to be far apart from each other. This is not the kind of place where you quickly reach the next strong castle - and even strong castles like Torrhen's Square or Deepwood Motte (who made it on the map) could not stand against the Ironborn.

In fact, if you read the description of Barrowton in TWoIaF it is explicitly said that it is a curious town in the middle of nowhere. Chances are not that high that there are many villages close to Barrowton allowing the people there to run to the town in a couple of days.

You are using the Norths vastness and emptiness as it was a disadvantage for the defender. I see it as a big disadvantage for the iron born since they arent that big of a force and theyd have to look for the villages they want to raid, whilst the defenders know exactly where every crucial village is.

Torhhens square and deepwood motte are masterly houses that no doubt went all in to satisfy their stark overlords.

 

 

 

1

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But the Lannisters are actually rather likely to make an alliance with Balon if their newly appointed Warden of the North cannot so much as enter the North - or is even slain while trying to cross the Neck. If Vic and his people threw the Boltons and Freys back, we can easily see the crannogment taking advantage of the confusion and killing most/all of the survivors with their poisoned arrows.

Didnt you hear what Tywin said. Balon already did the dirty work for the lannisters, why should tywin strike an alliance with balon when the damage has been done. Tywin was no doubt going to send the redwyne fleet towards the iron islands as quickly as possible. Get rid of the last rebel king. When Balon declared independence he cut any ties he could've had with the lannisters. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Even Robb only made plans to return back North and retake the Moat once he learned that Balon was dead. If he hadn't died his plan to retake the Moat would have likely not worked - and even if it did: Roose would never have the help of the crannogmen in his plan to return back home.

No Robb learned Balon was dead when he arrived at the twins. 

The moat is weak from the west and the north. Robb was planning on sending a strong force to attack the moat from both the west and the north. Whilst the Greatjon attacked the moat from the causeway in order to distract the iron born from the true threat. I dont see any issues with this plan. If the assault failed than all they had to do was sit their armys both north and south of moat cailin, and starve the iron born out. Whislt also burning the iron born ship at the fever river.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, with Balon still up there it would be a different scenario. We cannot watch that far ahead, but one could easily see Tywin or Cersei/Mace deciding to actually make common cause with Balon if Roose fails to return North and Balon actually offers to land in force at the Shadow Tower, march to Castle Black, and take care of Stannis for good and all.

If Balon offered to deal with Stannis, he still would've lost since Stannis would've had the help of the northmen, and he has southron veterans that fight like a proper 13th-century army. I would never see Tywin make such a deal with Balon since he declared independence and allowing balon to keep his crown would damage the reputation of the iron throne. And Balon was never going to give up his crown, he is too stubborn for that. 

If it was up to Cersei or Mace, then yes I would easily see these two accepting such a deal.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, you have no basis for that assumption, do you? And it doesn't make sense to list all those dead as people who could and would figure into the military numbers - the men Theon and the Ironborn killed at the Stoney Shore, for instance, were, for the most part, sheep who would have never marched into battle. Those dead have no place in estimations about military strength. The same goes for dead women and children.

Stony shore is already desolated. It has a small population and I don't think starks raise levies from there. Iron born have done quite a few raids but its clearly only been done on the lands near the wolfswood and the stony shore. Everything else like northern mountains, barrowlands, rills havent been touched. If they had we would've heard from this. 

[Hugorfonics]

43 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, their sovereign had actually given up and  bent the knee.

So they said. Im pretty sure someone was pulling the strings

43 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's a historical  fact and  in the series Winter hadnt come yet and  the moment Winter comes, you have the Mountain clans  rather dying fighting the Boltons than freezing their asses to death.

Its a historical fact that some old dudes died along time ago fighting for a queen who lived far away, sure. What's not is this old nan business of committing suicide, maybe its true that some folk did that but its never been in this kamikaze style you described

43 minutes ago, frenin said:

Roderick Dustin of House Stark??

Gotcha, but still its not a fight for the smallfolks liberty against an opressor, or hyena tactics or whatever, but Dustin playing agot with the lives of smallfolk

44 minutes ago, frenin said:

And i'm saying Starks bannermen have and will take the field if they feel threatened, or didn't the Northern Lords send levies to take Winterfell again??

No. Stannis did, thats mostly Florent men with a few clans. Big houses like Umber and Mormont have done nothing

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

And their family are slave.

 

 

Thralls don't decide their own destiny, their lives are worst than simple smallfolk.

True. But their children have it better then smallfolk of the greenlands

 

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

Salto wives... I mean...

Im not in favor of polygamy, it usually reinforces the idea that the husband is the superior in the marriage. (Though Im curious what would happen if Dany took a second husband)

However in a world of political marriages its somewhat understandable. Especially since almost everyone has an affair, which cant be good for the couple thats actually in love

[frenin]

28 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So they said. Im pretty sure someone was pulling the strings

1 hour ago, frenin said:

There is no need to lie, in the firsi dornish war Meria was pullling the strings in the second the smallfolk were on their own until the lords joined them but in both cases it's impossible endure such devastation without the total support of your people.

 

31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its a historical fact that some old dudes died along time ago fighting for a queen who lived far away, sure. What's not is this old nan business of committing suicide, maybe its true that some folk did that but its never been in this kamikaze style you described

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Really??

 

The good septon was not wrong. Others had started this war, Lord Cregan was heard to say, but he meant to finish it, to continue south and destroy all that remained of the greens who had placed Aegon II on the Iron Throne and fought to keep him there. He would reduce Storm’s End first, then cross the Reach to take Oldtown. Once the Hightower had fallen, he would take his wolves north along the shores of the Sunset Sea to visit Casterly Rock. “A bold plan,” Grand Maester Orwyle said cautiously, when he heard it. Mushroom prefers “madness,” but adds, “they called Aegon the Dragon mad when he spoke of conquering all Westeros.” When Kermit Tully pointed out that Storm’s End, Oldtown, and Casterly Rock were as strong as Stark’s own Winterfell (if not stronger) and would not fall easily (if at all), and young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.” Like the Winter Wolves before them, most of the men who had marched south with Lord Cregan Stark did not expect to see their homes again. The snows were already deep beyond the Neck, the cold winds rising; in keeps and castles and humble villages throughout the North, the great and small alike prayed to their carved wooden god-trees that this winter might be short. Those with fewer mouths to feed fared better in the dark days, so it had long been the custom in the North for old men, younger sons, the unwed, the childless, the homeless, and the hopeless to leave hearth and home when the first snows fell, so that their kin might live to see another spring. Victory was secondary to the men of these winter armies; they marched for glory, adventure, plunder, and most of all, a worthy end.

 

Lord Stark had marched south with a great host, made up in large part of men unwanted and unneeded in the North, whose return would bring great hardship and mayhaps even death for the loved ones they had left behind. Legend (and Mushroom) tells us that it was Lady Alysanne who suggested an answer. The lands along the Trident were full of widows, she reminded Lord Stark; women, many burdened with young children, who had sent their husbands off to fight with one lord or another, only for them to fall in battle. With winter at hand, strong backs and willing hands would be welcome in many a hearth and home.

 

Hugo: I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

 

Desperate people do desperate things and winter is a season to despair, the only thing Balon is going to get is that those desperate people with literally zero to lose march directly against him.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Gotcha, but still its not a fight for the smallfolks liberty against an opressor, or hyena tactics or whatever, but Dustin playing agot with the lives of smallfolk

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Is smallfolk rather dying fighting than dying in Winter, absolutely all of them knew why they were there and it wasn't for victory.

 

Little did Lord Lefford suspect that he would soon face a stiffer test, for an army of fresh foes was descending on them from the north: two thousand savage northmen, flying Queen Rhaenyra’s quartered banners. At their head rode the Lord of Barrowton, Roderick Dustin, a warrior so old and hoary men called him Roddy the Ruin. His host was made up of grizzled greybeards in old mail and ragged skins, every man a seasoned warrior, every man ahorse. They called themselves the Winter Wolves. “We have come to die for the dragon queen,” Lord Roderick announced at the Twins, when Lady Sabitha Frey rode out to greet them.

 

The Lannister host was shattered and slaughtered, but at such cost that young Ben Blackwood, the boy Lord of Raventree, wept when he saw the heaps of the dead. The most grievous losses were suffered by the northmen, for the Winter Wolves had begged the honor of leading the attack, and had charged five times into the ranks of Lannister spears. More than two-thirds of the men who had ridden south with Lord Dustin were dead or wounded.

 

Calling for a peace banner, King Aegon’s Hand rode out to treat with them. Three came down from the ridge to meet him. Chief amongst them was Ser Garibald Grey in his dented plate and mail. Pate of Longleaf was with him, the Lionslayer who had cut down Jason Lannister, together with Roddy the Ruin, bearing the scars he had taken at the Fishfeed. “If I strike my banners, do you promise us our lives?” Ser Criston asked the three of them. “I made my promise to the dead,” Ser Garibald replied. “I told them I would build a sept for them out of traitors’ bones. I don’t have near enough bones yet, so…” Ser Criston answered, “If there is to be battle here, many of your own will die as well.” The northman Roderick Dustin laughed at these words, saying, “That’s why we come. Winter’s here. Time for us to go. No better way to die than sword in hand.” Ser Criston drew his longsword from its scabbard. “As you will it. We can begin here, the four of us. One of me against the three of you. Will that be enough to make a fight of it?” But Longleaf the Lionslayer said, “I’ll want three more,” and up on the ridge Red Robb Rivers and two of his archers raised their longbows. Three arrows flew across the field, striking Cole in belly, neck, and breast. “I’ll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker,” declared Longleaf. “There’s tens o’ thousands dead on your account.” He was speaking to a corpse.

 

 When most of the survivors were safe inside the gates, Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves sallied forth from a postern gate, screaming their terrifying northern war cries as they swept around the left flank of the attackers. In the chaos that ensued, the northmen fought their way through ten times their own number to where Lord Ormund Hightower sat his warhorse beneath King Aegon’s golden dragon and the banners of Oldtown and the Hightower. As the singers tell it, Lord Roderick was bloody from head to heel as he came on, with splintered shield and cracked helm, yet so drunk with battle that he did not even seem to feel his wounds. Ser Bryndon Hightower, Lord Ormund’s cousin, put himself between the northman and his liege, taking off the Ruin’s shield arm at the shoulder with one terrible blow of his longaxe…yet the savage Lord of Barrowton fought on, slaying both Ser Bryndon and Lord Ormund before he died. Lord Hightower’s banners toppled, and the townsfolk gave a great cheer, thinking the tide of battle turned. Even the appearance of Tessarion across the field did not dismay them, for they knew they had two dragons of their own…but when Vermithor and Silverwing climbed into the sky and loosed their fires upon Tumbleton, those cheers changed to screams.

 

The Winter wolves and those who followed Cregan were  Martin's version of the suicide squad.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No. Stannis did, thats mostly Florent men with a few clans. Big houses like Umber and Mormont have done nothing

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Mormont did nothing?? Stannis had half the support of the Umbers by then,

And when Rodrik called the banners to retake Winterfell almost of the North answered. It was his and the Starks death that leave the North in confusion and disarray but that would also end if the yoke of the IB begin to be too tight.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

True. But their children have it better then smallfolk of the greenlands

 

Yeah, they can be reavers, the dream.

 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not in favor of polygamy, it usually reinforces the idea that the husband is the superior in the marriage. (Though Im curious what would happen if Dany took a second husband)

However in a world of political marriages its somewhat understandable. Especially since almost everyone has an affair, which cant be good for the couple thats actually in love

The smallfolk aren't ok with their women being taken and forced to marry and be raped. The little thing you want to miss about the salt wife idea.

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Balon no doubt wanted to take as much as he could hold onto. He thought Winterfell wasn't strong enough to defy the iron born (which we clearly see he was wrong). But he never expected he could take the castle. No doubt even the iron born have heard of winterfells impregnable defences. He probably just though Winterfell only had a garrison force.

 

Balon wanted all the North. which is why he was doomed.

Lord Balon rode over him. “The lords are gone south with the pup. Those who remained behind are the cravens, old men, and green boys. They will yield or fall, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest shall be ours, forest and field and hall, and we shall make the folk our thralls and salt wives.”

 

The man actually thinks he can take Winterfell in a year and not even thinks of the possibility of places like Barrawton, White Harbor, the Dreadfort giving trouble, he thought he could make it to Last Hearth or Karhold and took them in a reasonable amount of time, to say the man is dellusional is being short.

The man clearly thought that as long as he held the Moat he was going to win, any other outcome didn't even cross his mind, because what could the green boys and cravens do against his 15k IB who never set a foot in the North before?? Ofc the only threats in the North are Winterfell and the Moat, the rest is falling one by one.

 

 

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He probably never dreamed of taking lands in the east. Thats just too much land to patrol, conquer, and hold. You'd need around 30k men in order to hold onto the entire north. 

Only?? I'd say 60-70k men to actually hold it if you're an invader. which are there to hold the garrisons but patrolling,  keeping supply lines and communications etc, because you need to do and force to the work the locals wouldn't want, you can do it with 30k if you have the implicit or explicit obedience or meekness of the locals, which an invader wouldn't have.

 

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Didnt you hear what Tywin said. Balon already did the dirty work for the lannisters, why should tywin strike an alliance with balon when the damage has been done. Tywin was no doubt going to send the redwyne fleet towards the iron islands as quickly as possible. Get rid of the last rebel king. When Balon declared independence he cut any ties he could've had with the lannisters. 

Not to mention that Tywin wanted to secure the North for Tyrion and Sansa, he was never going to give Balon nothing.

[Arthur Peres]

If we replace Balon, for other Greyjoy, how do you guys see they reacting to Robb's offer?

For exemple, how Quellon would react? what about Euron, Victarion or Asha ?

[The Young Maester]

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

If we replace Balon, for other Greyjoy, how do you guys see they reacting to Robb's offer?

For exemple, how Quellon would react? what about Euron, Victarion or Asha ?

Asha would probably accept it. Seeing as she has more brain cells than balon. Allying yourself with the other kingdom trying to break free, and you might be more successful.

Quellon well I’m not sure since he wanted to be more integrated with the mainland, not separated.

Euron is a bloody wildcard. He’ll probably take the offer and than betray Robb later down the road. Victorian is also a wildcard for me, he is as dumb as Balon (probably dumber). Both Victorian and balon make the dumb and dumber duo (but I still love Victorian). 

[Hugorfonics]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

If we replace Balon, for other Greyjoy, how do you guys see they reacting to Robb's offer?

Decline it. Like Dalton the Red. 

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

For exemple, how Quellon would react? 

Idk. But if I were to guess Id say he would go down the easy road his son went

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

what about Euron

Theres no way Euron would agree to be submissive to Robb

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Victarion

This may actually give him some thought, if he were to ask his friends or his priestly brother theyd say attack the defenseless and not submit to the Greenlands

However Victarions very cocky, taking the Rock sounds pretty exciting. However even if Vic takes Robbs offer it wouldn't be in earnest. I wouldn't trust the man as an ally.

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

or Asha ?

Asha would actually decline it. Nor would she invade the North. For such a talented warrior she doesn't seem to have much heart for it

[The Young Maester]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Asha would actually decline it. Nor would she invade the North. For such a talented warrior she doesn't seem to have much heart for it

She has brains. The only way the Iron Islands can remain independent its if Westeros fractures into separate kingdoms. The Greyjoy Rebellion is a good example of what happens you attack a united Westeros.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

The only way the Iron Islands can remain independent its if Westeros fractures into separate kingdoms. The Greyjoy Rebellion is a good example of what happens you attack a united Westeros.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Which makes me think of what Greatjon said

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"Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!"

Balon clearly thought along the same lines. How long until this unified westeros disappears? 

[Trigger Warning]

Land's worth more than plunder in the long run. The North was vulnerable, all he has to do is gain a foothold, claiming sovereignty over the whole North is just posturing but gaining a foothold and spreading could pay off in the end especially with Winter on the horizon whilst the Ironborn control  the Western shore and the causeway to the North, more shrewd nobles may side with this new power for their own benefit and advancement and it leaves the Ironborn free to plunder the more ripe South when Winter breaks. 

[Arthur Peres]

16 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

She has brains. The only way the Iron Islands can remain independent its if Westeros fractures into separate kingdoms. The Greyjoy Rebellion is a good example of what happens you attack a united Westeros.

More than brains Asha has ambition, she wants to be queen, and her kingsmoot idea is pretty much Robb's idea, but asking for garantees, demanding some lands in the north. She is also stuborn enough to stay on Deepwood Motte, even when she has no suport and gets captured. At least for me it's pretty clear that she would take Robb's offer, demanding something before making the deal.

About Quellon, we have very little on him, but he did not took sides in the Roberts Rebellion and only attacked the loser side after the trident, when the outcome was already decided, so I can see him sitting out of the war, ignoring Robb or anyone else for that matter.

I agree that Euron would use Robb and backstab him later, or ignore him and move on his on agenda without caring too much, but I don't see him doing what Balon did and attacking the north right away.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/19/2019 at 6:49 PM, Lord Varys said:

Asha is basically a craven. She wants to bury the old way and become like the greenlanders - which is not what the Ironborn want. Which is why they join Euron basically to a man.

It would have been an ugly and long business for the Ironborn to conquer half or more of the North - but it is something that they could have done the central authority of the Iron Throne had permanently collapsed.

Euron's dream is utter madness - but Balon's dream was something they could have done.

Asha is basically the only reasonable Ironborn. Other Ironborn signed onto Euron's "utter madness" because they are unreasonable.

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I mean, regardless how Harwyn took the Riverlands - it is a fact that he could keep them after he took them. And his son and grandson could, too, despite the fact that the Hoares were not all that popular on the Iron Islands and despite the fact that the Riverlanders did definitely outnumber the Ironborn. Yet Harren had so much power over them that he could force them to build him Harrenhal.

The Riverlands are not the North. As was already pointed out, the RIverlands had been conquered by other kingdoms even before the Ironborn, whereas the North has remained religious distinct because no Southrons could conquer it until dragons arrived.

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The idea that the Northmen would - in the absence of an adult Lord Stark - act as a unified bloc to throw out the Ironborn is actually laughable. There is no basis for this, nor any indication that any group of lords or noblemen lacking a clear leader would ever do that.

Others have noted how northern hosts assembled to die in battle during the winter. I think they'd be far more motivated to throw the Ironborn out of the North than to support the Blacks over the Greens.

On 10/19/2019 at 7:01 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, Ill agree to that (even without quotes lol) but still thats not really saying anything. Like Alaska (I totally do not have any statistic to back this up and am 100% assuming)  probably by acre its the poorest state in the union in terms of natural resources. However its also like a third of America and largly inhospitable. However the parts that can support life is bursting with resources. No one would ever claim theyre poor in that, despite being the poorest by acre.

 

Alaska has oil. The North does not have oil.

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Greyjoys not after money like some Dothraki rider, hes a great lord interested in starting a thriving kingdom. Sure the West is "jucier" as Balon claims but its also more protected, the Norths just sitting there seemingly with a sign saying free stuff.

The "stuff" is a famine-ridden region of harsh winters which no Southron has been able to conquer. Not the place you seize for a "thriving kingdom", unless perhaps you're from somewhere even colder.

 

On 10/20/2019 at 8:01 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Thats part of the reason I like Balon, he doesnt let the norms hold him down. Women cant sit the Seastone? Make Asha heir anyway. The Old Ways done and Robert sank your fleet? Build a new one and polish off the crown. He's got heart.

I can understand you being sympathetic to him making Asha his heir, but it didn't work. And I don't think it's admirable that he fails in his rebellion against Robert without seeming to have learned anything.

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Ya know Genghis conquered Russia in the Winter. When it comes to war nothings impossible, it just usually takes a great commander

Genghis Khan was from Mongolia, which is near Russia and experiences similar winters.

On 10/21/2019 at 11:39 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Also, Robb really did not no how to offer an alliance. He basically offered Greyjoy the chance to be an elite and historical group of mercenaries. How insulting is that?

Theyre not sellswords, theyre fucking Ironborn. They pay the ironprice, how can a man gift a crown? Only the drowned god can do that.

Robb was fighting for Northern independence, and thus the only other king who would have tolerated Ironborn independence. So he was the only possible ally Balon could have had. Robb wasn't Balon's king and couldn't "give" him independence, Balon would still need to fight the claimants to the Iron Throne. But it would be easier fighting on the same side as Robb than against everybody.

On 10/21/2019 at 2:29 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Slavery is not Ironborn culture, as Victarion laments and all of Westeros gives up their women from north of the wall to the beaches of Dorne

Thralldom, then.

On 10/21/2019 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

Since Balon apparently planned to conquer the North he must have had some such plans, regardless whether you can imagine that or not...

You are assuming the conclusion that Balon wasn't an idiot with a doomed plan, which is precisely what is being disputed.

On 10/23/2019 at 3:09 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Balon clearly thought along the same lines. How long until this unified westeros disappears? 

This war was a much better time to declare independence than after Robert was crowned. But attacking the only other belligerent who wouldn't have been fighting against Ironborn independence was the height of idiocy.

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Asha is basically the only reasonable Ironborn. Other Ironborn signed onto Euron's "utter madness" because they are unreasonable.

I mean, if the horn works, it doesnt sound too unreasonable

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Riverlands are not the North. As was already pointed out, the RIverlands had been conquered by other kingdoms even before the Ironborn, whereas the North has remained religious distinct because no Southrons could conquer it until dragons arrived.

Word. However no Southron has conquered it largely because Moat Cailin was never conquered. However since now that it has, along with other vital strongholds, like Winterfell, it makes the outlook of Balons war much more successful

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Alaska has oil. The North does not have oil.

The "stuff" is a famine-ridden region of harsh winters which no Southron has been able to conquer. Not the place you seize for a "thriving kingdom", unless perhaps you're from somewhere even colder.

It probably does. Its also probably got iron, wood, wildlife, whatever. Its huge.

Like its not some icy hell over there. Thats past the wall, a decent way past too. And in between is The Gift, which apparently has enough resources to help maintain the NW, resources that Stannis craves, and resources that had enough surplus to be given away, twice.

The idea that the North is poor is without context, certainly not famine ridden. The Reach has the highest population and biggest bread basket while the Westerlands have the most gold, this does not make the North desolate however.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I can understand you being sympathetic to him making Asha his heir, but it didn't work. 

But it didnt work for the same reason his campaign was never completed, his brother murdered him and usurped the crown! 

Like, what are the chances? Kinslaying is cursed and faceless men are dumb expensive. And then this whole dragon horn thing.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

And I don't think it's admirable that he fails in his rebellion against Robert without seeming to have learned anything.

He learned Westeros stood by Robert, somehow. I mean, why wouldnt Dorne invade, or the Golden Company? Turns out they had other plans.

However before Balon crowned himself, Robb and Tywin were in the Riverlands while Stannis was marching to KL over Renlys corpse. Strike when the irons hot.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Genghis Khan was from Mongolia, which is near Russia and experiences similar winters.

When the rivers froze, he rode his horses over them. 

Anything is possible in war, thay was my point. Obviously no character in asoiaf will be reminiscent of Khan.... Except Dany lol

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Robb was fighting for Northern independence, and thus the only other king who would have tolerated Ironborn independence. So he was the only possible ally Balon could have had. Robb wasn't Balon's king and couldn't "give" him independence, Balon would still need to fight the claimants to the Iron Throne. But it would be easier fighting on the same side as Robb than against everybody.

Mace and friends are happy to recognize Balons crown while Cersei and Tyrion decide to stall. Tywin decides to reevaluate after the winter. Balon wasnt warring against the world, thats Euron.

But Robb really went about it the wrong way. He made Balon an offer but not one he cant refuse. He should have secured his base before heading south, returning Theons just icing on the cake. 

Robb, like every other character, has no idea how to make an alliance. He does say give a crown, like he asks Lysa to fight for him or bring his army to the Vale. I mean, the man spends one night at Riverrun and theyre calling him king of the trident, even his uncle. Meanwhile Hosters sleeping in the room above. Then he wishes he married Sansa to Tyrell.

Ned should have just sat down, Robert and Jon wouldn't have cared.

4 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Thralldom, then.

Compared to their typical northern overlords, yea worse, but not for their kids. Compared to Frey and Bolton probably not. Compared to wildlings worshipping fucking R'hllor in the Gift? Ironborn are hated, just not the most hated

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:52 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I mean, if the horn works, it doesnt sound too unreasonable

The horn killed the guy who blew it. Since Euron also killed his own brother to replace him, any Ironborn should conclude that he regards them all as expendable.

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Word. However no Southron has conquered it largely because Moat Cailin was never conquered. However since now that it has, along with other vital strongholds, like Winterfell, it makes the outlook of Balons war much more successful

Boats are not a new invention, which is why the North long fought the "Worthless War" with the Vale over the Three SIsters. People could have sailed around Moat Cailin before, but it would still be hard to build any beachhead you set up.

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It probably does. Its also probably got iron, wood, wildlife, whatever. Its huge.

The industrial revolution hasn't occurred, there's no fossil fuels industry. It's a huge space, with a low value per acre, so you need to control a lot for it to add up to much.

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Like its not some icy hell over there. Thats past the wall, a decent way past too. And in between is The Gift, which apparently has enough resources to help maintain the NW, resources that Stannis craves, and resources that had enough surplus to be given away, twice.

The Gift has depopulated over time because it's not very viable. Jon might resettle it with wildlings, because they're from somewhere even further north and less hospitable, and the threat from wildlings is one of the reasons people don't want to live there. I'm skeptical of such people settling down to living as farmers obedient to nobles, but that's getting off track.

Quote

The idea that the North is poor is without context, certainly not famine ridden. The Reach has the highest population and biggest bread basket while the Westerlands have the most gold, this does not make the North desolate however.

GRRM has said "the North is cruel" with regards to the threat of famine. From the Winter Wolves to the present there is the idea that men should go out and die in battle when winter comes so there aren't too many mouths to feed. It's not just compared to the Reach, but most kingdoms to the south.

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But it didnt work for the same reason his campaign was never completed, his brother murdered him and usurped the crown!

Euron was elected in a kingsmoot by the other Ironborn. Even if it weren't for Euron, Victarion would probably become king as the Ironborn have never been ruled by a queen. Euron didn't cause the Targaryens to have a male preference either despite Rhaenyra being named as heir, everywhere but Dorne disfavors female rulers.

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When the rivers froze, he rode his horses over them.

The Mongols built a horse-empire, which is different from a ship-empire. The Ironborn are seamen, and much better at building the latter thant he former. The North is a huge expanse of land, which would be difficult to control with ships.

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Anything is possible in war, thay was my point. Obviously no character in asoiaf will be reminiscent of Khan.... Except Dany lol

It's been said that the larger army doesn't always win, but that's the way to bet. Balon seems to ignore the logic any rational betting man would use, which is why he's a loser who's biggest victory is Theon's fluke conquest of Winterfell which certainly can't be attributed to Balon's plan.

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Mace and friends are happy to recognize Balons crown while Cersei and Tyrion decide to stall. Tywin decides to reevaluate after the winter. Balon wasnt warring against the world, thats Euron.

Anyone sitting on the Iron Throne isn't going to tolerate the Ironborn reviving the Old Way in defiance of Westerosi authority. At best he might have managed some kind of cynical deal with Tywin if he'd arranged for it earlier, but because he's an idiot he didn't even do that.

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But Robb really went about it the wrong way. He made Balon an offer but not one he cant refuse. He should have secured his base before heading south, returning Theons just icing on the cake. 

Robb made the most reasonable offer Balon could get, failing to anticipate that Balon is a blithering idiot.

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Robb, like every other character, has no idea how to make an alliance. He does say give a crown, like he asks Lysa to fight for him or bring his army to the Vale. I mean, the man spends one night at Riverrun and theyre calling him king of the trident, even his uncle. Meanwhile Hosters sleeping in the room above. Then he wishes he married Sansa to Tyrell.

There's lots of support in the Vale for entering the fight, and as his aunt Robb expected her to assist him against the Lannisters she blamed for killing her husband. He didn't know that Lysa is Littlefinger's pawn and kill Jon Arryn himself, which is not something even a great maker of allies like Robert Baratheon could have anticipated.

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Ned should have just sat down, Robert and Jon wouldn't have cared.

What are you talking about?

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Compared to their typical northern overlords, yea worse, but not for their kids. Compared to Frey and Bolton probably not. Compared to wildlings worshipping fucking R'hllor in the Gift? Ironborn are hated, just not the most hated

Stannis starts out with a disadvantage, but kicking Ironborn out is how he gets northmen on his side. Nobody joins the Ironborn to fight against Stannis, the only other viable side are the Bolton/Frey alliance.

[Hugorfonics]

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

The horn killed the guy who blew it. Since Euron also killed his own brother to replace him, any Ironborn should conclude that he regards them all as expendable.

They don't know any of that.

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Boats are not a new invention, which is why the North long fought the "Worthless War" with the Vale over the Three SIsters. People could have sailed around Moat Cailin before, but it would still be hard to build any beachhead you set up.

Sailing, landing and then traversing the North sounds like a lot of bad things can happen.

Obviously its possible, but since it never happend its a good look in Balons favor

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

. It's a huge space, with a low value per acre, so you need to control a lot for it to add up to much.

Citation? Just one quote that says the Norths poor, Ive only been asking for like 6 pages lol

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

The Gift has depopulated over time because it's not very viable. Jon might resettle it with wildlings, because they're from somewhere even further north and less hospitable, and the threat from wildlings is one of the reasons people don't want to live there. I'm skeptical of such people settling down to living as farmers obedient to nobles, but that's getting off track.

The gift depopulated because the NW is a failing institution, back when it was gifted it thrived. And Jon thinks wildlings but Ned thought northerners and Stannis thinks Florents. 

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

GRRM has said "the North is cruel" with regards to the threat of famine. From the Winter Wolves to the present there is the idea that men should go out and die in battle when winter comes so there aren't too many mouths to feed. It's not just compared to the Reach, but most kingdoms to the south.

In the winter dude, the norths cruel in the winter. Yea GRRM said when theres no food theres famine, thats pretty self explanatory. He also said theres lots of fish even inland and meat to smoke or salt, and also the greenhouses like the glass gardens of Winterfell. 

Dude, never believe a maester. This Winter Wolves business is a story. Some starving old guys aren't the ace up the Norths sleeve. 

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

It's not just compared to the Reach, but most kingdoms to the south.

So compared to what then? The mountains of the Vale? The rocks in the water that the Ironborn call home?

Its stated that Dorne is the poorest, can you please give me a quote that the North has less resources then Stormlands, or Riverlands or whatever?

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Euron was elected in a kingsmoot by the other Ironborn. Even if it weren't for Euron, Victarion would probably become king as the Ironborn have never been ruled by a queen. Euron didn't cause the Targaryens to have a male preference either despite Rhaenyra being named as heir, everywhere but Dorne disfavors female rulers.

(Rhaenyra wasnt queen because her inlaws stole the throne, not because of Targs. And whos son wound up on the throne?)

They disfavor female rulers but sometimes things change, like Dany and the Dothraki. Balon was grooming his heir if he had more time then maybe Asha would have been ready.

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Anyone sitting on the Iron Throne isn't going to tolerate the Ironborn reviving the Old Way in defiance of Westerosi authority. At best he might have managed some kind of cynical deal with Tywin if he'd arranged for it earlier, but because he's an idiot he didn't even do that.

Dude I just told you that the SC tolerated Ironborn in the North. And Balon wrote to KL in acok, cant get much earlier

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Robb made the most reasonable offer Balon could get, failing to anticipate that Balon is a blithering idiot.

He insulted him, returned his hostage and left his kingdom undefended. Lol ok, Balons the idiot here

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

What are you talking about?

Asoiaf

Quote

"You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

Poor Ned. Poor sad Ned.

Poor Westeros.

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Stannis starts out with a disadvantage, but kicking Ironborn out is how he gets northmen on his side. 

But Stannis only defeats the Ironborn because they were a retreating army whos king just died. He didn't really kick them out, more like he helped them leave.

 

On 11/2/2019 at 2:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

, the only other viable side are the Bolton/Frey alliance.

Who also dont fight Ironborn, they fight Stannis. I mean, MC was taken but by Reek and again, after Balon died

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude, never believe a maester. This Winter Wolves business is a story. Some starving old guys aren't the ace up the Norths sleeve. 

On 11/2/2019 at 7:31 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

And what about Cregan's wolves?? And those of Hugo Wull?? 

 

You're really like Balon dude, fighting a lost cause even now, you got heart.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

And what about Cregan's wolves?? And those of Hugo Wull?? 

What about them? Cregan called arms and went south to fail putting a stranger on the throne and then after he made a splash in KL he went home. How is this similar to anything?

And Big Bucket is fighting because the King went to his village and asked him. No, hes not afraid of death. Neither is Jaime, that doesn't make them suicidal

5 hours ago, frenin said:

You're really like Balon dude, fighting a lost cause even now, you got heart.

Yea hes cool. I really like most asoiaf characters. (I like his son and two of his brothers more)

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

What about them? Cregan called arms and went south to fail putting a stranger on the throne and then after he made a splash in KL he went home. How is this similar to anything?

And Big Bucket is fighting because the King went to his village and asked him. No, hes not afraid of death. Neither is Jaime, that doesn't make them suicidal

Dude, do you read what they're saying or you prefer making your own assumptions of what's being said??

 

The good septon was not wrong. Others had started this war, Lord Cregan was heard to say, but he meant to finish it, to continue south and destroy all that remained of the greens who had placed Aegon II on the Iron Throne and fought to keep him there. He would reduce Storm’s End first, then cross the Reach to take Oldtown. Once the Hightower had fallen, he would take his wolves north along the shores of the Sunset Sea to visit Casterly Rock. “A bold plan,” Grand Maester Orwyle said cautiously, when he heard it. Mushroom prefers “madness,” but adds, “they called Aegon the Dragon mad when he spoke of conquering all Westeros.” When Kermit Tully pointed out that Storm’s End, Oldtown, and Casterly Rock were as strong as Stark’s own Winterfell (if not stronger) and would not fall easily (if at all), and young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.” Like the Winter Wolves before them, most of the men who had marched south with Lord Cregan Stark did not expect to see their homes again. The snows were already deep beyond the Neck, the cold winds rising; in keeps and castles and humble villages throughout the North, the great and small alike prayed to their carved wooden god-trees that this winter might be short. Those with fewer mouths to feed fared better in the dark days, so it had long been the custom in the North for old men, younger sons, the unwed, the childless, the homeless, and the hopeless to leave hearth and home when the first snows fell, so that their kin might live to see another spring. Victory was secondary to the men of these winter armies; they marched for glory, adventure, plunder, and most of all, a worthy end.

 

Lord Stark had marched south with a great host, made up in large part of men unwanted and unneeded in the North, whose return would bring great hardship and mayhaps even death for the loved ones they had left behind. Legend (and Mushroom) tells us that it was Lady Alysanne who suggested an answer. The lands along the Trident were full of widows, she reminded Lord Stark; women, many burdened with young children, who had sent their husbands off to fight with one lord or another, only for them to fall in battle. With winter at hand, strong backs and willing hands would be welcome in many a hearth and home.

 

Hugo: I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Dude, do you read what they're saying or you prefer making your own assumptions of what's being said??

Yes, I read it but I also take it with a grain of salt. They're maesters. Proven liars on a grand scale

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

When Kermit Tully pointed out that Storm’s End, Oldtown, and Casterly Rock were as strong as Stark’s own Winterfell (if not stronger) and would not fall easily (if at all), and young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.” Like the Winter Wolves before them, most of the men who had marched south with Lord Cregan Stark did not expect to see their homes again.

This is a lord in a pissing contest with other lords, happens all the time. No lord, except Edmure, really cares about the lives of their smallfok

 

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

The snows were already deep beyond the Neck, the cold winds rising; in keeps and castles and humble villages throughout the North, the great and small alike prayed to their carved wooden god-trees that this winter might be short. Those with fewer mouths to feed fared better in the dark days, so it had long been the custom in the North for old men, younger sons, the unwed, the childless, the homeless, and the hopeless to leave hearth and home when the first snows fell, so that their kin might live to see another spring. Victory was secondary to the men of these winter armies; they marched for glory, adventure, plunder, and most of all, a worthy end.

Ok, like, theyre not pirates looking for Valhalla. See this maester business is very tricky. Most of the main characters in asoiaf are from the North and theres no more feel of glory or worthy ends then from southrons. Northerners are boring, they do their duty, not adventures.

So heres the real story (maybe, I believe it.) 

Quote

She remembered a tale she had heard from Old Nan, about how sometimes during a long winter men who'd lived beyond their years would announce that they were going hunting. And their daughters would weep and their sons would turn their faces to the fire, she could hear Old Nan saying, but no one would stop them, or ask what game they meant to hunt, with the snows so deep and the cold wind howling. She wondered what the old Braavosi told their sons and daughters, before they set off for the House of Black and White.

These old men choose the quick and easy. Theres no romance involved.

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

Lord Stark had marched south with a great host, made up in large part of men unwanted and unneeded in the North, whose return would bring great hardship and mayhaps even death for the loved ones they had left behind. 

Idk why Stark picked old men for his army, but it explains why he lost the battle.

If I were to guess Id say he didnt and they just had beards or something.

With regards to Buckets, hes ready to die. A good soldier fighting for a good cause on the right hand of the king