Jump to content

Why does Balon Greyjoy want to attack the North?


Angel Eyes

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, I read it but I also take it with a grain of salt. They're maesters. Proven liars on a grand scale

Why would they lie  exactly?? 

 

20 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

This is a lord in a pissing contest with other lords, happens all the time. No lord, except Edmure, really cares about the lives of their smallfok

But why exactly are you saying that?? 

 

23 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, like, theyre not pirates looking for Valhalla. See this maester business is very tricky. Most of the main characters in asoiaf are from the North and theres no more feel of glory or worthy ends then from southrons. Northerners are boring, they do their duty, not adventures.

So heres the real story (maybe, I believe it.) 

They are not looking for Valhalla, they are look for a worthy end, they are going to die anyway.

I mean those povs are kids who don't know summer, there is a reason why Old Nan  says that they are summer children, there is a reason why Big Bucket says that Winter is there and  Winter is death.

 

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

These old men choose the quick and easy. Theres no romance involved.

Because they don't always have  a war you know??

39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk why Stark picked old men for his army, but it explains why he lost the battle.

If I were to guess Id say he didnt and they just had beards or something.

With regards to Buckets, hes ready to die. A good soldier fighting for a good cause on the right hand of the king

What battle did he lost??

The part that Winter is death tho...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 
 
 
 
2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk why Stark picked old men for his army, but it explains why he lost the battle.

I honestly I think the winter wolves performed greatly during the dance. I somehow don't see the blacks succeeding in their war effort without the winter wolves. They brought 2k harden cavalry led by a warrior lord. They managed to break the strong Lannister spear wall, at the battle by the Lakeshore, which led to the westerlands being knocked out of the war.

They marched south with one goal, to die for the dragon queen. And despite losing the first battle of the tumbleton they were able to cut down the most important Green general (lord Hightower). Going into the 2nd battle of the tumbleton, the green army was vanquished. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I honestly I think the winter wolves performed greatly during the dance. I somehow don't see the blacks succeeding in their war effort without the winter wolves. They brought 2k harden cavalry led by a warrior lord. They managed to break the strong Lannister spear wall, at the battle by the Lakeshore, which led to the westerlands being knocked out of the war.

They marched south with one goal, to die for the dragon queen. And despite losing the first battle of the tumbleton they were able to cut down the most important Green general (lord Hightower). Going into the 2nd battle of the tumbleton, the green army was vanquished. 

We should not overplay but also not underestimate their role (they were only about 2,000, after all). The death of Lord Ormund Hightower was one of the crucial moments of the war. Their role in the Fishfeed is less noteworthy, however. They would have still driven the Westermen in the lake, it may have just taken longer - in fact, it might even be that there would have been less casualties on the Black side if they had not insisted charging into the spearmen again and again.

But, sure, if you have not only no problem to die in battle, but have actually gone to battle to die, then it should be very difficult to stop you. Because chances that you break or fall back or do not follow orders are very, very low.

And that's also a thing to consider with Stannis' clansmen - they made it clear that they have more or less the same attitude. They have no issue dying in battle, something that might not be the case for the Freys or the Northmen in Roose's service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We should not overplay but also not underestimate their role (they were only about 2,000, after all).

They were 2,000 out of the 6k-9k Black army at the fish feed. An army of that size, with such expendable soldiers (on horse mind you) would completely change the course of the war. The Rivermen had just lost a major battle at the hands of the westerlanders, and the arrival of fresh Frey soldiers alongside the northmen is what helped win the battle at the lakeshore. 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They would have still driven the Westermen in the lake, it may have just taken longer - in fact, it might even be that there would have been less casualties on the Black side if they had not insisted charging into the spearmen again and again.

If they hadn’t insisted on charging at the spear wall maybe the river men wouldn’t have had the morale to rout the Lannister infantry. Not to forget their lower numbers since they lost the previous battle. 
A cavalry force charging 6 times at a disciplined spear wall is stupid. But for these guys it’s a different scenario since they are seeking death and won’t stop until they rout or defeat the enemy. They want to sacrifice themselves in order to preserver the numbers of the much younger riverman soldiers. Any other knightly force would’ve likely broken before they reached the 4th charge since they wouldn’t have the same resolve as the greybeards. You might find a handful of knights that have the same resolve as these winter wolves but not everyone shares the same values. And once a couple knights break the rest of the force breaks. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Why would they lie  exactly?? 

About twoiaf/F&B? They have to write something. I don't think the book is full of lies especially the events, for example Im sure Stark took KL and arrested Strong and all that. However the analysis and reasoning in the books seem mostly assumed, like they got quotes by Dalton; How?

Having said that, in addition to the books contradicting itself in asoiaf its important to realize grey rats also shouldn't be trusted. The Mage makes it clear theyre playing a different game, and Lady Dustin confirmed theyre good at it.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

But why exactly are you saying that?? 

That lords piss?

Quote

You do not understand, ser."

"I might." Better than you know. "I remember once some little lord in the stormlands took Ser Arlan into service, to help him fight some other little lord. When I asked the old man what they were fighting over, he said, 'Nothing, lad. It's just some pissing contest.' "

Lady Rohanne gave him a shocked look, but could sustain it no more than half a heartbeat before it turned into a grin. "I have heard a thousand empty courtesies in my time, but you are the first knight who ever said pissing in my presence." Her freckled face went somber. "Those pissing contests are how lords judge one another's strength, and woe to any man who shows his weakness.

Cuz they do

12 hours ago, frenin said:

They are not looking for Valhalla, they are look for a worthy end, they are going to die anyway.

I mean those povs are kids who don't know summer, there is a reason why Old Nan  says that they are summer children, there is a reason why Big Bucket says that Winter is there and  Winter is death.

Ok, I think its important here to stress the difference between the highborn and smallfolk. 

Highborns love glory and war. They trained to be a soldier as a child and will instruct their kids in warfare too. Do these higborn want to die? Course not, but war is war and fame is fame.

Buckets isnt scared of winter, thats his backyard and hes seen many cold winters. However hes old and if hes going out then why not for Arya/Stannis? Besides, hes not dead yet

Smallfolk dont decide when to war, they follow their lords command. 

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Because they don't always have  a war you know??

The way Old Nan described this practice is its old (maybe ancient and extinct), seldom done (sometimes was the word Nan used) and only done by the poorest (never highborn). This is a vastly different picture then the tradition of "kamikazes"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

About twoiaf/F&B? They have to write something. I don't think the book is full of lies especially the events, for example Im sure Stark took KL and arrested Strong and all that. However the analysis and reasoning in the books seem mostly assumed, like they got quotes by Dalton; How?

They don't have to lie and invent about a culture they don't understand.

 

58 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Having said that, in addition to the books contradicting itself in asoiaf its important to realize grey rats also shouldn't be trusted. The Mage makes it clear theyre playing a different game, and Lady Dustin confirmed theyre good at it.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

What a fallacy here, i didn't know the maesters thought the winter was magic related and thus have to lie about people dying in winter.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cuz they do

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Mixing apples with oranges, we're literally told those men had come yo die several times, that'swhy you know, those men didn't returned home.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, I think its important here to stress the difference between the highborn and smallfolk. 

Highborns love glory and war. They trained to be a soldier as a child and will instruct their kids in warfare too. Do these higborn want to die? Course not, but war is war and fame is fame.

Buckets isnt scared of winter, thats his backyard and hes seen many cold winters. However hes old and if hes going out then why not for Arya/Stannis? Besides, hes not dead yet

Smallfolk dont decide when to war, they follow their lords command. 

Bucket isnot highborn, about the smallfolk, if they weren't in the south to die and spared their familes a mouth to feed. why so few men ever made it to the North again??

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The way Old Nan described this practice is its old (maybe ancient and extinct), seldom done (sometimes was the word Nan used) and only done by the poorest (never highborn). This is a vastly different picture then the tradition of "kamikazes"

Old Nan is not the only one who describe it, Yandel, Glydan and Hugo said it as well, you just don't want to hear about it and dude,it's done by those to have mouth to spared, but in Winter and with the perspective of eath or death, people are going to choose how they want to die, as simple as that.

I leave it here, the text contradicts your claim, you just don't want to see it, as a good Balon fans you think that logic don't apply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, I think its important here to stress the difference between the highborn and smallfolk. 

Highborns love glory and war. They trained to be a soldier as a child and will instruct their kids in warfare too. Do these higborn want to die? Course not, but war is war and fame is fame.

No both smallfolks and highborn will like glory and think participating in wars will get them that. It’s not all of them that think like that. It’s mainly the young ones, especially those that haven’t been to war.

During wars lots of young boys eagerly join the lords armies because they seek glory in war. The small folk aren’t just farmers, or woodman, or smiths. They don’t all think the same. Some will hate wars and others will love it because they enjoyed killing men in the previous war. The small folk like the highborn will have different traits and emotions. 

Death in battle isn’t just glorious to the highborn but it’s also to the small folk. If winter was nearing in and you’d a approach a homeless northern peasant, and ask him do you want to starve and freeze to death during winter? Or do you want to march south with the lords army get some food and possibly die in battle with sword in hand instead of dying an unpleasant death in the middle of winter. Which one do you think they’d choose?

Just because the small folk are the ones most affected by the lords wars dosent mean they all hate it. When Robb was marching from winterfell to moat Caitlin, thousands free riders and armed peasants joined him along the way. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

They were 2,000 out of the 6k-9k Black army at the fish feed. An army of that size, with such expendable soldiers (on horse mind you) would completely change the course of the war. The Rivermen had just lost a major battle at the hands of the westerlanders, and the arrival of fresh Frey soldiers alongside the northmen is what helped win the battle at the lakeshore.

It certainly helped, but we never hear they were the deciding factor who won the war.

10 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

If they hadn’t insisted on charging at the spear wall maybe the river men wouldn’t have had the morale to rout the Lannister infantry. Not to forget their lower numbers since they lost the previous battle. 
A cavalry force charging 6 times at a disciplined spear wall is stupid. But for these guys it’s a different scenario since they are seeking death and won’t stop until they rout or defeat the enemy. They want to sacrifice themselves in order to preserver the numbers of the much younger riverman soldiers. Any other knightly force would’ve likely broken before they reached the 4th charge since they wouldn’t have the same resolve as the greybeards. You might find a handful of knights that have the same resolve as these winter wolves but not everyone shares the same values. And once a couple knights break the rest of the force breaks.

We don't know whether the morale of the Rivermen depended on those charges. From what we hear from the deliberations before the battle they were in agreement they had to kill the Westermen before Aemond could reach them. Lefford chose to put his army in a very unfortunate position and his enemies were determined to kill them there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It certainly helped, but we never hear they were the deciding factor who won the war.

We don't know whether the morale of the Rivermen depended on those charges. From what we hear from the deliberations before the battle they were in agreement they had to kill the Westermen before Aemond could reach them. Lefford chose to put his army in a very unfortunate position and his enemies were determined to kill them there.

Of course the winter wolves weren’t the deciding factor to win the war. I think the river lords deserve all the credit. But without the winter wolves arriving when they did, the river lords might have suffered higher casualties before they could secure the riverlands and fight the Hightower army. 
Without the Blackwood archers the black army would’ve been burnt by Aemond and without the rest of the houses that contributed to the war effort all could’ve been lost. I think the northmen played a big role in securing the long-term victory for the blacks.

Lefford might have been defeated before the northmen arrived but than again when the opposition has a river to his rear they’d fight till the bitter end (desperate men Are hard to rout and defeat). But the northmen had no problems with throwing themselves at the enemy. I think that without the northmen the river lords would’ve bled the westerlanders with their archers and slowly defeated them in battle. But casualties would’ve been higher without the winter wolves. The winter wolves were expendable, better let them win this battle with high casualties so the river lords can later on win the Tumbleton and battle of the kings road.

What I’m trying to say is that without the winter wolves taking the vanguard at the fish feed the river lords would have suffered higher casualties and probably wouldn’t have had enough numbers to win against the Hightower army. 

A bit out of topic but Roddy Ruins last charge at Lord Hightower is something worthy of a Hollywood movie. I think the dance of the dragons would make a good movie/tv show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Bucket is not highborn,

Of course he is. Hes a lord. 

8 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

No both smallfolks and highborn will like glory and think participating in wars will get them that. It’s not all of them that think like that. It’s mainly the young ones, especially those that haven’t been to war.

During wars lots of young boys eagerly join the lords armies because they seek glory in war. The small folk aren’t just farmers, or woodman, or smiths. They don’t all think the same. Some will hate wars and others will love it because they enjoyed killing men in the previous war. The small folk like the highborn will have different traits and emotions. 

Death in battle isn’t just glorious to the highborn but it’s also to the small folk. If winter was nearing in and you’d a approach a homeless northern peasant, and ask him do you want to starve and freeze to death during winter? Or do you want to march south with the lords army get some food and possibly die in battle with sword in hand instead of dying an unpleasant death in the middle of winter. Which one do you think they’d choose?

Just because the small folk are the ones most affected by the lords wars dosent mean they all hate it. When Robb was marching from winterfell to moat Caitlin, thousands free riders and armed peasants joined him along the way. 

For sure. Smallfolk are people too, some are scared of war while some love it, but none of them have a choice. 

But still the level of glory seeking is different, smallfolk may want glory over death but highborn seem to take glory over life. 

Like heres Jaimes thoughts on Steelshanks (a northerner)

Quote

Steelshanks Walton commanded Jaime's escort; blunt, brusque, brutal, at heart a simple soldier. Jaime had served with his sort all his life. Men like Walton would kill at their lord's command, rape when their blood was up after battle, and plunder wherever they could, but once the war was done they would go back to their homes, trade their spears for hoes, wed their neighbors' daughters, and raise a pack of squalling children. Such men obeyed without question, but the deep malignant cruelty of the Brave Companions was not a part of their nature.

Theyre just simple people, not obsessed with the game like highborn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course he is. Hes a lord

He's not.

 

12 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theyre just simple people, not obsessed with the game like highborn

No one ever said they are obsessed with the game, but they, as i suppose everyone, rather dying in battle than dying with their ass froze.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He's not.

Um... You seem awfully sure

Quote

"Does no one live up here?" Meera Reed asked once, as they made their way around a granite upthrust as large as Winterfell.

"There's people," Bran told her. "The Umbers are mostly east of the kingsroad, but they graze their sheep in the high meadows in summer. There are Wulls west of the mountains along the Bay of Ice, Harclays back behind us in the hills, and Knotts and Liddles and Norreys and even some Flints up here in the high places." His father's mother's mother had been a Flint of the mountains. Old Nan once said that it was her blood in him that made Bran such a fool for climbing before his fall. She had died years and years and years before he was born, though, even before his father had been born.

"Wull?" said Meera. "Jojen, wasn't there a Wull who rode with Father during the war?"

"Theo Wull." Joien was breathing hard from the climb. "Buckets, they used to call him."

That's their sigil," said Bran. "Three brown buckets on a blue field, with a border of white and grey checks. Lord Wull came to Winterfell once, to do his fealty and talk with Father, and he had the buckets on his shield. He's no true lord, though. Well, he is, but they call him just the Wull, and there's the Knott and the Norrey and the Liddle too. At Winterfell we called them lords, but their own folk don't.

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No one ever said they are obsessed with the game, but they, as i suppose everyone, rather dying in battle than dying with their ass froze.

Yes its better to die with a purpose then frostbite. Unfortunately for smallfolk they dont get to make that decision.

Only lords can wage war

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

But still the level of glory seeking is different, smallfolk may want glory over death but highborn seem to take glory over life. 

Glory is glory. Young boys will be eager to fight wars in order to return home a hero full of glory. 
Every class in this world has a set goal to reach glory. Kings and lords would win great battles and conquer great lands in order to gain glory. Knights would perform excellent feats worthy of songs. And armed men at arms and armed peasants would commit to the butchers work and if they live to return home, they’d return as hero’s in the eyes of the villagers, at least they’d think so.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Like heres Jaimes thoughts on Steelshanks (a northerner)

Theyre just simple people, not obsessed with the game like highborn

Steelshank is Roose’s captain of the guard. He lives in the dreadfort and commands Lord Bolton’s household guard like Jory Cassel would command lords Starks guards. It’s like a full time job really, no home near a village to go back to. Instead they’d bring the wives to the lords castle. Steelshank could also be a highborn, seeing as only highborns can take the position of captain of the guard for lords as powerful as Bolton and stark. Most likely a masterly house of low rep.

But yeah Jamie gave pretty much the simple description of a soldier at war. But nowhere does he say they dislike participating in war. Some will of course hate being in the middle of a war, whilst others would bask on the blood of a fallen enemy. It’s really just mixed opinions. 

Killing and death was a normal thing for the Middle Ages and same for this fantasy. In the 12th century a game called the Atherstone ball game was invented in Warwickshire, England. This game involves a loads of peasants fighting with clubs and wooden planks over a fat bag of gold. Many would die and many would bear scars for the rest of their lives, but they all played it because they enjoyed it and also wanted to secure the bag of gold. Till this day it’s still played as an annual game (although killing is banned now). Peasants and highborn alike, some will enjoy taking a mans life whilst others would condemn it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Bucket isnot highborn

You could say he is the same as a wildlings clan chief. But the northern clansman follow similar laws to the rest of the highborn lords. They have successions and they bare names and a coat of arms. They rule over small folk and have holdfasts of their own. Whilst they are also referred to as lords by the Starks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Glory is glory. Young boys will be eager to fight wars in order to return home a hero full of glory. 
Every class in this world has a set goal to reach glory. Kings and lords would win great battles and conquer great lands in order to gain glory. Knights would perform excellent feats worthy of songs. And armed men at arms and armed peasants would commit to the butchers work and if they live to return home, they’d return as hero’s in the eyes of the villagers, at least they’d think so.

The thing is armed peasents is a temporary thing. Knights fight battles for a living while Lords war for a living. Glory is everything for them. 

Smallfolk get their share of glory too sure, but then they go home and marry their neighbors daughter. We see what real smallfolk glory is, Gendrys helmet, Pennys entertainment, Hot Pies baking. Normal shit. 

So, I reiterate, smallfolk like battle glory but for them to fight to the death over politics is contradictory to the the text.

51 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Steelshank is Roose’s captain of the guard. He lives in the dreadfort and commands Lord Bolton’s household guard like Jory Cassel would command lords Starks guards. It’s like a full time job really, no home near a village to go back to. Instead they’d bring the wives to the lords castle. Steelshank could also be a highborn, seeing as only highborns can take the position of captain of the guard for lords as powerful as Bolton and stark. Most likely a masterly house of low rep.

I suppose your right, I always he assumed he was smallfolk because he doesn't have a surname but you make a compelling case. Though what land did Cassel own? Although he does have a surname.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Um... You seem awfully sure

And it turns out that you are awfully right, my bad.

 

Quote

So, I reiterate, smallfolk like battle glory but for them to fight to the death over politics is contradictory to the the text.

Not the text i know.

The good septon was not wrong. Others had started this war, Lord Cregan was heard to say, but he meant to finish it, to continue south and destroy all that remained of the greens who had placed Aegon II on the Iron Throne and fought to keep him there. He would reduce Storm’s End first, then cross the Reach to take Oldtown. Once the Hightower had fallen, he would take his wolves north along the shores of the Sunset Sea to visit Casterly Rock. “A bold plan,” Grand Maester Orwyle said cautiously, when he heard it. Mushroom prefers “madness,” but adds, “they called Aegon the Dragon mad when he spoke of conquering all Westeros.” When Kermit Tully pointed out that Storm’s End, Oldtown, and Casterly Rock were as strong as Stark’s own Winterfell (if not stronger) and would not fall easily (if at all), and young Ben Blackwood echoed him and said, “Half your men will die, Lord Stark,” the grey-eyed Wolf of Winterfell replied, “They died the day we marched, boy.” Like the Winter Wolves before them, most of the men who had marched south with Lord Cregan Stark did not expect to see their homes again. The snows were already deep beyond the Neck, the cold winds rising; in keeps and castles and humble villages throughout the North, the great and small alike prayed to their carved wooden god-trees that this winter might be short. Those with fewer mouths to feed fared better in the dark days, so it had long been the custom in the North for old men, younger sons, the unwed, the childless, the homeless, and the hopeless to leave hearth and home when the first snows fell, so that their kin might live to see another spring. Victory was secondary to the men of these winter armies; they marched for glory, adventure, plunder, and most of all, a worthy end.

 

Lord Stark had marched south with a great host, made up in large part of men unwanted and unneeded in the North, whose return would bring great hardship and mayhaps even death for the loved ones they had left behind. Legend (and Mushroom) tells us that it was Lady Alysanne who suggested an answer. The lands along the Trident were full of widows, she reminded Lord Stark; women, many burdened with young children, who had sent their husbands off to fight with one lord or another, only for them to fall in battle. With winter at hand, strong backs and willing hands would be welcome in many a hearth and home.

 

Hugo: I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

 

 

Little did Lord Lefford suspect that he would soon face a stiffer test, for an army of fresh foes was descending on them from the north: two thousand savage northmen, flying Queen Rhaenyra’s quartered banners. At their head rode the Lord of Barrowton, Roderick Dustin, a warrior so old and hoary men called him Roddy the Ruin. His host was made up of grizzled greybeards in old mail and ragged skins, every man a seasoned warrior, every man ahorse. They called themselves the Winter Wolves. “We have come to die for the dragon queen,” Lord Roderick announced at the Twins, when Lady Sabitha Frey rode out to greet them.

 

The Lannister host was shattered and slaughtered, but at such cost that young Ben Blackwood, the boy Lord of Raventree, wept when he saw the heaps of the dead. The most grievous losses were suffered by the northmen, for the Winter Wolves had begged the honor of leading the attack, and had charged five times into the ranks of Lannister spears. More than two-thirds of the men who had ridden south with Lord Dustin were dead or wounded.

 

Calling for a peace banner, King Aegon’s Hand rode out to treat with them. Three came down from the ridge to meet him. Chief amongst them was Ser Garibald Grey in his dented plate and mail. Pate of Longleaf was with him, the Lionslayer who had cut down Jason Lannister, together with Roddy the Ruin, bearing the scars he had taken at the Fishfeed. “If I strike my banners, do you promise us our lives?” Ser Criston asked the three of them. “I made my promise to the dead,” Ser Garibald replied. “I told them I would build a sept for them out of traitors’ bones. I don’t have near enough bones yet, so…” Ser Criston answered, “If there is to be battle here, many of your own will die as well.” The northman Roderick Dustin laughed at these words, saying, “That’s why we come. Winter’s here. Time for us to go. No better way to die than sword in hand.” Ser Criston drew his longsword from its scabbard. “As you will it. We can begin here, the four of us. One of me against the three of you. Will that be enough to make a fight of it?” But Longleaf the Lionslayer said, “I’ll want three more,” and up on the ridge Red Robb Rivers and two of his archers raised their longbows. Three arrows flew across the field, striking Cole in belly, neck, and breast. “I’ll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker,” declared Longleaf. “There’s tens o’ thousands dead on your account.” He was speaking to a corpse.

 

 When most of the survivors were safe inside the gates, Roddy the Ruin and his Winter Wolves sallied forth from a postern gate, screaming their terrifying northern war cries as they swept around the left flank of the attackers. In the chaos that ensued, the northmen fought their way through ten times their own number to where Lord Ormund Hightower sat his warhorse beneath King Aegon’s golden dragon and the banners of Oldtown and the Hightower. As the singers tell it, Lord Roderick was bloody from head to heel as he came on, with splintered shield and cracked helm, yet so drunk with battle that he did not even seem to feel his wounds. Ser Bryndon Hightower, Lord Ormund’s cousin, put himself between the northman and his liege, taking off the Ruin’s shield arm at the shoulder with one terrible blow of his longaxe…yet the savage Lord of Barrowton fought on, slaying both Ser Bryndon and Lord Ormund before he died. Lord Hightower’s banners toppled, and the townsfolk gave a great cheer, thinking the tide of battle turned. Even the appearance of Tessarion across the field did not dismay them, for they knew they had two dragons of their own…but when Vermithor and Silverwing climbed into the sky and loosed their fires upon Tumbleton, those cheers changed to screams.

 

Those are smallfolk fighting to the death about  politics, if your point is that they don't really mind politics and who is in charge, well you may have a point, but this smallfolk would be fighting pirates who have come to theur lands to enslave and massraped them, that's not politics, that's survival. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes its better to die with a purpose then frostbite. Unfortunately for smallfolk they dont get to make that decision.

Only lords can wage war

Thannks god that what Balon  brought was war and  lords  needing levies would be plenty of.

 

I honestly don't know what or why are you duscussing here, Northeners, commons  and nobles rather dying in battle or killing themselves in huntings are just a historical  fact.

You may not like it bit it's a fact nonetheless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, I reiterate, smallfolk like battle glory but for them to fight to the death over politics is contradictory to the the text.

Yeah I agree with that. Smallfolks don’t care about politics, they probably don’t even know the side they are fighting against.

I imagine veterans of previous wars would have had a good share of loot they captured from sacking villages and towns, and this might inspire them to join the army once more (unless the horrors of war are not worth the loot). A regular armed men at arms can get lots of coins or gold from sacking towns. Maybe more than enough to completely change his family’s life.
I’ll be honest peasants and knights had it easier back than. Because the chances of surviving a war was all dependant on your personal skill at arms and trusting that your commander isn’t incompetent. Nowadays you can be the best soldier in the world, but in the end a child soldier carrying a pistol can just end your life within a second.

13 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Though what land did Cassel own? Although he does have a surname.

I think it’s a very lowly keep or it might be a manor. With some shit income probably. I always thought the cassels lived in winterfell because the average lifestyle there is way better than their respective homes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, frenin said:

And it turns out that you are awfully right, my bad.

Np

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Yeah I agree with that. Smallfolks don’t care about politics, they probably don’t even know the side they are fighting against.

I imagine veterans of previous wars would have had a good share of loot they captured from sacking villages and towns, and this might inspire them to join the army once more (unless the horrors of war are not worth the loot). A regular armed men at arms can get lots of coins or gold from sacking towns. Maybe more than enough to completely change his family’s life.

I think it’s a very lowly keep or it might be a manor. With some shit income probably. I always thought the cassels lived in winterfell because the average lifestyle there is way better than their respective homes. 

Word

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I’ll be honest peasants and knights had it easier back than. Because the chances of surviving a war was all dependant on your personal skill at arms and trusting that your commander isn’t incompetent. Nowadays you can be the best soldier in the world, but in the end a child soldier carrying a pistol can just end your life within a second.

I strongly disagree. The best soldier would be wearing some thick ass kevlar and a helmet the size of Renlys. If the kid can get the drop on him and kill him with a pistol, thats quite a shot.

When I was a kid I played this game Dynasty Warriors (based off of Romance of three kingdoms) and I enjoyed killing like 800 people on a battlefield, but I recognized how silly it was, how can one man have such a high body count in a battle?

Then I read the book. These are tall and strong lords on majestic horses, trained in martial arts and swordplay. They carry longswords heavy axes and halberds and they fight peasents. 

A lion vs rabbits.

Its no different in medieval europe or asoiaf, except the martial arts part, Knights are tanks on the battlefield, and tank vs man is a hell of a fight. Like, how much did Jaime Lannisters armor cost? What about the sword Oathkeeper? Brienne would be dead as Dick without the magic sword. 

Rorge got Sandors armor and became indestructible to the smallfolk. Medieval warfare was all about the money

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/3/2019 at 9:58 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Sailing, landing and then traversing the North sounds like a lot of bad things can happen.

Obviously its possible, but since it never happend its a good look in Balons favor

We don't know that nobody managed to land and traverse in the North. We know that the North remained religiously distinct, and this serves as evidence that Andals were not able to permanently conquer it as they did everywhere in the south except the Iron Islands. Balon hasn't managed to permanently conquer the north either.

Quote

Citation? Just one quote that says the Norths poor, Ive only been asking for like 6 pages lol

The World of Ice and Fire says that the North is the coldest kingdom, and this makes it less far less fertile than the south. In the Malthusian era, "wealth" of a region could be measured via population size, and with approximate one third the land-mass of Westeros, estimates of the North's population put it at the most thinly populated per square smile. In contrast, other kingdoms on that coast that Balon could have attacked are noted as being relatively populous.

Quote

So compared to what then? The mountains of the Vale? The rocks in the water that the Ironborn call home?

The land of the Iron Islands might be comparable to the North in how unattractive it is, but the Ironborn are able to support the population they do have via their ships. The North has some coastal towns, but most of its territory is inland. And the "Vale" is not the mountains, the term means "valley", which is noted as being highly fertile. There are mountain clans who are dirt poor, but the lords of the Vale get to extract the bounty of the "Vale" part of "Mountain and Vale".

Quote

(Rhaenyra wasnt queen because her inlaws stole the throne, not because of Targs. And whos son wound up on the throne?)

Rhaenyra wasn't queen because there was an earlier precedent that the throne didn't go to or through a woman. Her son wound up king because he was the son of Daemon, brother to a king, after the other males in the line of succession had died.

Quote

They disfavor female rulers but sometimes things change, like Dany and the Dothraki. Balon was grooming his heir if he had more time then maybe Asha would have been ready.

What "changed" to favor Asha? Did she birth dragons, an event that still left Dany with only a small fraction of Drogo's khalasar?

Quote

Dude I just told you that the SC tolerated Ironborn in the North. And Balon wrote to KL in acok, cant get much earlier

Balon tried to arrange a deal after he'd already given Tywin a boon for free. The thing to do was to hold off on invading prior to an agreement. And Tywin wanted Tyrion to take over the North, which would presumably include kicking out the Ironborn.

Quote

He insulted him, returned his hostage and left his kingdom undefended. Lol ok, Balons the idiot here

He didn't "insult" Balon, he offered Balon the best possible opportunity. It was foolish to return a hostage, but he didn't think much of a defense would be needed since far more attractive targets for raiding were available which Balon had successfully attacked when he previously rebelled.

Quote

Poor Ned. Poor sad Ned.

Poor Westeros.

Ned and his bannermen and allies had all proclaimed Robert as King at the Trident. Jaime thinks he could have claimed the throne because Jaime is a fool who thinks he can just have sex with Cersei while Robert's in the room and kill him if he wakes up, and suggests openly marrying Cersei and claiming their children as Jaime's regardless of what anyone thinks.

Quote

But Stannis only defeats the Ironborn because they were a retreating army whos king just died. He didn't really kick them out, more like he helped them leave.

Killing and capturing Ironborn is "helping them leave"? Remind me not to ask you for help next time I have to move.

Quote

Who also dont fight Ironborn, they fight Stannis. I mean, MC was taken but by Reek and again, after Balon died

Reek was explicitly asking as Ramsay's representative while the Ironborn were surrounded by the besieging Bolton forces.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...