What if elia and children survive

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Seeing the replies, I truly hate Robert and the rebellion. 
 

Elia and her children should be alive. 

It was not Robert who killed the children. Who sacked the city.

With the war won, and 2 children before him. Could Robert kill them? If there was alternatives?

Ned would oppose. Jon Arryn likely too. The decision would then be Tywin's.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Seeing the replies, I truly hate Robert and the rebellion. 
 

Elia and her children should be alive. 

Why the rebellion had two people to blame and  their last name was Targaryen, blaming the rebels is like Balon  blaming Ned for the death of his kids.

[nyser1]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I blame Rhaegar more than Robert. He started it all with Lyanna leaving his wife and kids behind, then disapeard for close to a year and let his crazy father deal with the situation...Robert was only fighting for survivor when they asked for his head when he did nothing wrong at that point.

Don't forget the Ned. I agree.

 

As for Elia, she lives. The children? Very much in the air, but they likely die. Aegon is too dangerous in the hands of Robert's rivals of present and future.

[The Wolves]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I blame Rhaegar more than Robert. He started it all with Lyanna leaving his wife and kids behind, then disapeard for close to a year and let his crazy father deal with the situation...Robert was only fighting for survivor when they asked for his head when he did nothing wrong at that point.

When Robert claimed the throne(which wasn’t the goal of the rebellion )he signed Aegon and Rhaenys’ deaths. 
 

He sure does have more blame than Rhaegar alone with Tywin, and those monsters he let loose on Elia and her children. Rhaegar is to blame also but he shares the least IMO. 
 

Robert also standing over their innocent battered bodies and dehumanizing them is one of the most evil things in the books and made him a villain IMO. 

[The Wolves]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

It was not Robert who killed the children. Who sacked the city.

With the war won, and 2 children before him. Could Robert kill them? If there was alternatives?

Ned would oppose. Jon Arryn likely too. The decision would then be Tywin's.

It was Robert who had the power to hand out justice for their murder and instead he rewarded their monsters. Fuck him, that rebellion and Tywin and his monsters. 
 

That useless, stupid drunk had no reason to claim that throne. The second he agreed to that ugly chair he knew Aegon and Rhaenys were going to die. He had the power to save them(he should have named himself king and declared Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia under his protection. And don’t give me he probably didn’t think about it.)

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

When Robert claimed the throne(which wasn’t the goal of the rebellion )he signed Aegon and Rhaenys’ deaths. 
  

He sure does have more blame than Rhaegar alone with Tywin, and those monsters he let loose on Elia and her children. Rhaegar is to blame also but he shares the least IMO. 
  

Robert also standing over their innocent battered bodies and dehumanizing them is one of the most evil things in the books and made him a villain IMO. 

During the Rebellion was made clear that Aerys and Rhaegar had to die, and once they dispose of them who would take the throne? Aegon VI? Viserys III? risk being target by the crazy dynasty again?

Robert being crowed was the most logical decision that they could make.

Rhaegar running away with Lyanna and abanoning his wife and kids, and letting the realm sink in a civil war is unforgivable. Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard and them asking for Robert and Ned's head when they were the victms is unforgivable.

[The Wolves]

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

During the Rebellion was made clear that Aerys and Rhaegar had to die, and once they dispose of them who would take the throne? Aegon VI? Viserys III? risk being target by the crazy dynasty again?

Robert being crowed was the most logical decision that they could make.

Rhaegar running away with Lyanna and abanoning his wife and kids, and letting the realm sink in a civil war is unforgivable. Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard and them asking for Robert and Ned's head when they were the victms is unforgivable.

This argument that Aegon or Viserys would have grown up to take revenge is weak. It’s an excuse used to justify murder of children and the theft of their throne.  
 

There is nothing to suggest that Aegon(who would be king)would grow up to start some shit about two men he didn’t know. Some monarchs have been disposed of and their heirs or descendants have been given the throne in real life and I’m sure with the thousands and thousands of years of history in Westeros that it’s happened a few times. Plus Robert is not intelligent enough to think that far into the future.  
 

There is nothing about Robert being crowded logical. This man was a drunk, a whore, an idiot and someone who clearly had no desire or ability to rule. I’m also really sure that he never did rule Storm’s End, just let his Maesters do it. 
 

The only reason Robert got the throne is because a bunch of dumbasses like himself was impressed that he killed the Prince. 
 

Rhaegar has his share of the blame but everyone who fought in that war did. And I don’t care about any of those grown men being victims. Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaella, Viserys, Baby Danaerys, and Westeros’ small folk were the real victims. Not a bunch of grown men who had choices and too much power and didn’t care about the realm at all. 

[Aldarion]

20 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The only reason Robert got the throne is because a bunch of dumbasses like himself was impressed that he killed the Prince. 

Actually, he got the throne because he was the closest relative to Targaryens, while Targs themselves were dead or in the exile.

[The Wolves]

15 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Actually, he got the throne because he was the closest relative to Targaryens, while Targs themselves were dead or in the exile.

They were not in no exile. Robert killed Rhaegar and than went to King’s Landing where the King and the crown prince were. 
 

Robert and those dumb fucks proclaimed him King when he killed Rhaegar and because he killed him. Using the Targaryen blood claim was just to make the taking of the thrown seem less jarring. 
 

Im like a trillion percent positive that no real discussion went into why Robert should have taken the thrown. He was declared because a bunch of dumbasses was impressed that he killed the better man. 

[frenin]

9 hours ago, The Wolves said:

When Robert claimed the throne(which wasn’t the goal of the rebellion )he signed Aegon and Rhaenys’ deaths. 

 

Quote

That useless, stupid drunk had no reason to claim that throne. The second he agreed to that ugly chair he knew Aegon and Rhaenys were going to die. He had the power to save them(he should have named himself king and declared Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia under his protection. And don’t give me he probably didn’t think about it.)

 

 

He didn't none of the rebels did, that's the reason of the thread, they certainly signed their lifes would change for worst but they didn't sign their deaths, there were a ot of ways of neutralizing them without killing them.

 

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

This argument that Aegon or Viserys would have grown up to take revenge is weak. It’s an excuse used to justify murder of children and the theft of their throne.  
 

There is nothing to suggest that Aegon(who would be king)would grow up to start some shit about two men he didn’t know. Some monarchs have been disposed of and their heirs or descendants have been given the throne in real life and I’m sure with the thousands and thousands of years of history in Westeros that it’s happened a few times. Plus Robert is not intelligent enough to think that far into the future.  

Yeah, there is nothing to suggest they wouldn't, people would surely feed them with urges of rebellion until they became another Black Dragons and tbf there is no reason to suggest the rebels would want to take the least chances, Roger Mortimer is the best, but not the only, example of that. It also wasn't their throne after they lost it.

 

9 hours ago, The Wolves said:

He sure does have more blame than Rhaegar alone with Tywin, and those monsters he let loose on Elia and her children. Rhaegar is to blame also but he shares the least IMO. 

I'm not sure why, it was Rhaegar and his father who made the war a reality, without them, there would no be no war.

 

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

There is nothing about Robert being crowded logical. This man was a drunk, a whore, an idiot and someone who clearly had no desire or ability to rule. I’m also really sure that he never did rule Storm’s End, just let his Maesters do it. 

Sure it is, the rebels had gotten to far to just put another Targ in the Throne, Robert had Targ blood, he was crowned.

 

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The only reason Robert got the throne is because a bunch of dumbasses like himself was impressed that he killed the Prince. 

Nah, they hailed him as King before the Trident, the Prince dying just made it a reality.

 

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Rhaegar has his share of the blame but everyone who fought in that war did. And I don’t care about any of those grown men being victims. Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaella, Viserys, Baby Danaerys, and Westeros’ small folk were the real victims. Not a bunch of grown men who had choices and too much power and didn’t care about the realm at all. 

The choices Ned and Robert had were fight for their lifes because they were targetted because no reason or harakiri.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

Im like a trillion percent positive that no real discussion went into why Robert should have taken the thrown. He was declared because a bunch of dumbasses was impressed that he killed the better man. 

They didn't care about "the better man". And Ned do say that the reason Eobert was named King was his blood.

[The Young Maester]

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Im like a trillion percent positive that no real discussion went into why Robert should have taken the thrown. He was declared because a bunch of dumbasses was impressed that he killed the better man. 

Nah they just thought that The targaryen dynasty had run its course. No doubt many in the realm (including the rebels) were praying for the mad king to die and Rhaegar to take over. But once the whole thing about kidnapping and burning lords alive happened, It seemed that both the king and crown prince were not a choice.

A real discussion wasn’t needed. The only reasonable choice was to crown Robert at this point. To the Rebels it seemed crowning another Targaryen would be suicide and might lead to another mad king.

Dont forget many of the rebels thought Rhaegar had the same madness Aerys had. 

[The Wolves]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

 

 

He didn't none of the rebels did, that's the reason of the thread, they certainly signed their lifes would change for worst but they didn't sign their deaths, there were a ot of ways of neutralizing them without killing them.

 

Yeah, there is nothing to suggest they wouldn't, people would surely feed them with urges of rebellion until they became another Black Dragons and tbf there is no reason to suggest the rebels would want to take the least chances, Roger Mortimer is the best, but not the only, example of that. It also wasn't their throne after they lost it.

 

I'm not sure why, it was Rhaegar and his father who made the war a reality, without them, there would no be no war.

 

Sure it is, the rebels had gotten to far to just put another Targ in the Throne, Robert had Targ blood, he was crowned.

 

Nah, they hailed him as King before the Trident, the Prince dying just made it a reality.

 

The choices Ned and Robert had were fight for their lifes because they were targetted because no reason or harakiri.

 

 

They didn't care about "the better man". And Ned do say that the reason Eobert was named King was his blood.

I’m sure that surrounded by thousands of men who just declared you king and surrounded by the likes of Jon Arryn(no matter if he was dumb as fuck) and Ned Stark(who we saw immediately think of Cersei’s children when he was about to expose her)someone would have thought to say “oh yeah, there is still a Mad King, the newly crown Prince who is a baby, his sister and their 8 yr old uncle, what do we do with them?” Robert was just crowned king, there was definite talk about Rhaegar’s heirs and the rest of the royal family. Even the Rebels aren’t that dumb. 
 

I don’t know why people constantly try to argue the idea that Aegon would have punished the rebels in later years for someone he wouldn’t have remembered. Why would you throw your kingdom in chaos for something or someone  you wouldn’t remember? This is a stupid ass argument used to excuse the evil actions of monsters who had no business taking the throne. 
 

Rhaegar took a girl and even than a war didn’t start. It was Aerys who started it and Jon Arryn lit it aflame when he declared war and bought war and destruction to the realm along with the rebels. Rhaegar played his part and I will never deny that. But he had a few men at his call while the rebels and king had thousands. It was their fault. 
 

The idea that the rebels had no choice but to crown Robert is bullshit and just that. Like I said many monarchs throughout history has been disposed and their heirs and descendants were put on the throne and the world kept spinning. Plus if children need to die for you to have something than maybe you shouldn’t have it in the first place. 
 

Like I said having Targ blood is a plus. Robert was named because men saw him kill the better man and they got as wet as the females concerning Robert. If having Targaryen blood was such a requirement than maybe they should have used the fully alive Targaryens like Aegon or Viserys. 

[The Wolves]

28 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Nah they just thought that The targaryen dynasty had run its course. No doubt many in the realm (including the rebels) were praying for the mad king to die and Rhaegar to take over. But once the whole thing about kidnapping and burning lords alive happened, It seemed that both the king and crown prince were not a choice.

A real discussion wasn’t needed. The only reasonable choice was to crown Robert at this point. To the Rebels it seemed crowning another Targaryen would be suicide and might lead to another mad king.

Dont forget many of the rebels thought Rhaegar had the same madness Aerys had. 

The only ones who prayed for Aerys reign to end was the rebels. The realm prospered with Aerys as King and that was because he had a Hand like Tywin and only bothered the nobility. The small folk were good with Aerys reign. 
 

Yes a real discussion was needed. If you’re going to throw a country into chaos and disposing their 300 year old dynasty and put someone else there than yes a discussion is needed. Having discussions about someone ruling millions of people prevents shit like The War of the Five Kings. I would like someone to sit and talk about the best possible person who should rule over me and mine. And I’m glad someone else agrees that the rebels were stupid. 
 

I don’t think the rebels thought that Rhaegar was mad at all. I don’t remember the book having anything like that. 
 

Anyways Westeros deserved a better king than what the Rebels gave them. And I’ll die on this hill. 

[The Young Maester]

34 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

The only ones who prayed for Aerys reign to end was the rebels. The realm prospered with Aerys as King and that was because he had a Hand like Tywin and only bothered the nobility. The small folk were good with Aerys reign. 
 

Yes a real discussion was needed. If you’re going to throw a country into chaos and disposing their 300 year old dynasty and put someone else there than yes a discussion is needed. Having discussions about someone ruling millions of people prevents shit like The War of the Five Kings. I would like someone to sit and talk about the best possible person who should rule over me and mine. And I’m glad someone else agrees that the rebels were stupid. 
 

I don’t think the rebels thought that Rhaegar was mad at all. I don’t remember the book having anything like that. 
 

Anyways Westeros deserved a better king than what the Rebels gave them. And I’ll die on this hill. 

You had two Aerys’s. The normal one before the madness and the Mad King. So you are telling me that no one wanted the mad king dead, especially the small folk. When their is a strong capable heir to the take the mantle I’m sure many would pray for the death of the father.

Who do you recommend should be king? Someone with a valid claim to the Throne. Mind you both Aerys and Rhaegar had to die anyways.

Because besides the Targaryen family the only rebel Lord with a claim to the throne was Robert. The only other significant house that is able to claim the throne is house velaryon but than again Roberts claim was stronger.

If the Crown Prince has kidnapped a noble daughter, especially when that crown prince already had a beautiful wife. Well some of the rebels would start thinking that he might be a tad bit mad. But it doesn’t matter what they think of Rhaegar. Either way he had to die and was thought unsuited to sit the throne.

[BalerionTheCat]

16 hours ago, The Wolves said:

It was Robert who had the power to hand out justice for their murder and instead he rewarded their monsters. Fuck him, that rebellion and Tywin and his monsters. 

I was refering to who killed the children.

For dealing justice... someone else requested heads and got a rebellion. Robert didn't want Cersei. Jon Arryn did it. OK Robert names their death "war casualties". But what was decided was a shared thing.

How many children died or lost their mother in the Sack? How many would die in another war with the Lannisters? I'm not taking side. Just asking the consequences of a different course.

[Arthur Peres]

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

This argument that Aegon or Viserys would have grown up to take revenge is weak. It’s an excuse used to justify murder of children and the theft of their throne.  
  

There is nothing to suggest that Aegon(who would be king)would grow up to start some shit about two men he didn’t know. Some monarchs have been disposed of and their heirs or descendants have been given the throne in real life and I’m sure with the thousands and thousands of years of history in Westeros that it’s happened a few times. Plus Robert is not intelligent enough to think that far into the future.  

The Targs have a history of going mad already, you're not going to wait in line when is your life on the line. Robert had all the rights of rebellion and claiming the throne only came at the end when they needed a solution to replace Aerys and Rhaegar.

Aerys named Viserys his heir, and Viserys already was mad, and we see that he wanted revenge... even Daenerys that never saw Robert or Ned hold a grudge against them, and idolize Rhaegar, there is no way in hell anyone would put their lifes on the line, asking for pardon for something that was right.

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

There is nothing about Robert being crowded logical. This man was a drunk, a whore, an idiot and someone who clearly had no desire or ability to rule. I’m also really sure that he never did rule Storm’s End, just let his Maesters do it. 

Exactly, Robert had no desire for the thorne and never asked for it, it only happened because the responsable think to do when you top a regime is present a alternative path, and doing that Robert was much more responsable than Rhaegar that abandoned everything because he got horny and doomed his dynasty.

 

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The only reason Robert got the throne is because a bunch of dumbasses like himself was impressed that he killed the Prince. 

he claimed the throne before the Trident, had nothing to do with killing Rhaegar. That was just poetic justice.

 

7 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Rhaegar has his share of the blame but everyone who fought in that war did. And I don’t care about any of those grown men being victims. Elia, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaella, Viserys, Baby Danaerys, and Westeros’ small folk were the real victims. Not a bunch of grown men who had choices and too much power and didn’t care about the realm at all. 

Eddard, Jon and Robert had no blame at all. They were fighting to stay alive after a idiot, horny selfcentered prince wronged them and a mad king asked for their heads fos no reason. Neither of them took part on the sack of KL, and even after it, Robert could have killed Viserys at any moment but chose not to do it, Robert pardoned everysingle lord that took arms against him, and even called of the plot to kill Daenerys in his final moments.

All the blame is on Rhaegar, he pissed of 3 of the most powerful families in one stroke, he abandoned his wife, he let his father that was a know madman use his family as hostages, and stayed in a honeymoon for close to a year while the realm burned in a civil war he helped start. He choose to not let a single KG to guard his family, but 3 to guard Lyanna, not to mention that he knighted the men that would murder his wife and kids. 

[Arthur Peres]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The only ones who prayed for Aerys reign to end was the rebels. The realm prospered with Aerys as King and that was because he had a Hand like Tywin and only bothered the nobility. The small folk were good with Aerys reign. 

Exept that time that he started a civil war when he asked for 2 young lords head for no reason and doomed thousands of lives.

[frenin]

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I’m sure that surrounded by thousands of men who just declared you king and surrounded by the likes of Jon Arryn(no matter if he was dumb as fuck) and Ned Stark(who we saw immediately think of Cersei’s children when he was about to expose her)someone would have thought to say “oh yeah, there is still a Mad King, the newly crown Prince who is a baby, his sister and their 8 yr old uncle, what do we do with them?” Robert was just crowned king, there was definite talk about Rhaegar’s heirs and the rest of the royal family. Even the Rebels aren’t that dumb. 

Yeah, The mad King is dead and  the kids can be managed properly, there is no reason to kill them if they didn't want to.

 

 

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

I don’t know why people constantly try to argue the idea that Aegon would have punished the rebels in later years for someone he wouldn’t have remembered. Why would you throw your kingdom in chaos for something or someone  you wouldn’t remember? This is a stupid ass argument used to excuse the evil actions of monsters who had no business taking the throne. 

Because the rebels killed his father and  great uncle and  grandfather, because the loyalists would want blood and  the likes of Viserys would want them revenge, because there is a big chance of that happening. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it impossible.

 

 

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Rhaegar took a girl and even than a war didn’t start. It was Aerys who started it and Jon Arryn lit it aflame when he declared war and bought war and destruction to the realm along with the rebels. Rhaegar played his part and I will never deny that. But he had a few men at his call while the rebels and king had thousands. It was their fault. 

That didn't start a war because Robert and  Ned were trapped in the Eyrie, Brandon went to KL to get Rhaegar's head, which would've started a war anyway.

The rebels and  the King just spread the what Rhaegar had shat.

 

 

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The idea that the rebels had no choice but to crown Robert is bullshit and just that. Like I said many monarchs throughout history has been disposed and their heirs and descendants were put on the throne and the world kept spinning. Plus if children need to die for you to have something than maybe you shouldn’t have it in the first place. 

There are many monarchs  in history that punished those who betrayed their family as well, so why would the rebels want to roll the dice when they had a perfectly viable option in Robert??

The rebels didn't kill the children, Tywin Lannister did. 

 

 

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Like I said having Targ blood is a plus. Robert was named because men saw him kill the better man and they got as wet as the females concerning Robert. If having Targaryen blood was such a requirement than maybe they should have used the fully alive Targaryens like Aegon or Viserys. 

They hailed Robert as King before the Trident, they don't give a fuck about Rhaegar and  the Targs by then.

A claim is nothing more than a pretext.

 

 

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Yes a real discussion was needed. If you’re going to throw a country into chaos and disposing their 300 year old dynasty and put someone else there than yes a discussion is needed. Having discussions about someone ruling millions of people prevents shit like The War of the Five Kings. I would like someone to sit and talk about the best possible person who should rule over me and mine. And I’m glad someone else agrees that the rebels were stupid. 

Aerys then shouldn't have demanded Ned and  Robert's heads And his son shouldn't have abducted Lyanna.

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I was refering to who killed the children.

For dealing justice... someone else requested heads and got a rebellion. Robert didn't want Cersei. Jon Arryn did it. OK Robert names their death "war casualties". But what was decided was a shared thing.

How many children died or lost their mother in the Sack? How many would die in another war with the Lannisters? I'm not taking side. Just asking the consequences of a different course.

Robert has nearly the whole realm at his back when the rebellion happened. He could have fought the Lannisters easily and won. 
 

And if another war was what needed to happen to punish Tywin and the Lannister’s than yes it should have happened. 
 

People don’t get that TWOT5K is because of the rebellion. 

[The Wolves]

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

The Targs have a history of going mad already, you're not going to wait in line when is your life on the line. Robert had all the rights of rebellion and claiming the throne only came at the end when they needed a solution to replace Aerys and Rhaegar.

Aerys named Viserys his heir, and Viserys already was mad, and we see that he wanted revenge... even Daenerys that never saw Robert or Ned hold a grudge against them, and idolize Rhaegar, there is no way in hell anyone would put their lifes on the line, asking for pardon for something that was right.

Exactly, Robert had no desire for the thorne and never asked for it, it only happened because the responsable think to do when you top a regime is present a alternative path, and doing that Robert was much more responsable than Rhaegar that abandoned everything because he got horny and doomed his dynasty.

 

he claimed the throne before the Trident, had nothing to do with killing Rhaegar. That was just poetic justice.

 

Eddard, Jon and Robert had no blame at all. They were fighting to stay alive after a idiot, horny selfcentered prince wronged them and a mad king asked for their heads fos no reason. Neither of them took part on the sack of KL, and even after it, Robert could have killed Viserys at any moment but chose not to do it, Robert pardoned everysingle lord that took arms against him, and even called of the plot to kill Daenerys in his final moments.

All the blame is on Rhaegar, he pissed of 3 of the most powerful families in one stroke, he abandoned his wife, he let his father that was a know madman use his family as hostages, and stayed in a honeymoon for close to a year while the realm burned in a civil war he helped start. He choose to not let a single KG to guard his family, but 3 to guard Lyanna, not to mention that he knighted the men that would murder his wife and kids. 

The only reason Viserys and Dany holds a grudge is because they were punished for Aerys and Rhaegar’s mistakes unfairly. They had a horrible life because of the rebels. Don’t act like Viserys and Dany have no reason to hate the men who killed their family, chased them into exile, had them looking over their shoulders for almost two decades, etc... Viserys and Dany were innocent and so were many more that suffered more than they deserved. 
 

Robert couldn’t get legitimate children from his wife. His Kingsguard fucked his wife for years and right by him while he was passed out drink, plus fathered her bastard, incestuous children.  His treasurer stole from him. He died and the kingdom is fighting a civil war probably the worst one they ever had. Plus the realm have been left unprepared for a horrible ice zombie invasion. All this happened during and because of Robert’s reign. Let’s not put responsible and Robert together. 
 

The rebels all have blame in the war. I don’t care what reason they did it, just that they are responsible for the past and present state of Westeros. And yes the rebels deserve blame for TWOT5Ks, every decision they made caused the current war.