The search goes on for the Hooded Man

[redriver]

14 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

This.  But Harwin/Hal recognizes Theon despite his changed appearance because he has been around for some time and learned from others.

He's spent pretty much every day of the last 10 years with Harwin.

[Ygrain]

24 minutes ago, redriver said:

He's spent pretty much every day of the last 10 years with Harwin.

You're ignoring the Arya quote that Harwin has changed. The encounter is brief, in a poor light.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You're ignoring the Arya quote that Harwin has changed. The encounter is brief, in a poor light.

And the man is hooded. And it's snowing.

[Makk]

Quote

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him.  When they found themselves face-to-face, their eyes met briefly.

They get up close, face to face, and their eyes briefly meet. I believe Theon would have recognised Harwin, but this doesn't necessarily rule him out because I am not convinced Theon doesn't recognise the man. In fact I think it is the opposite. The eyes only meet briefly, which I speculate is because Theon averts his gaze due to shame and that would imply he does recognise the person. His action later, revealing his mutilated hand, is bizarre, who would he be prepared to show this to?

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, Makk said:

His action later, revealing his mutilated hand, is bizarre, who would he be prepared to show this to?

To someone he knows, but also someone who he knows is aware of his awful deeds. And IMO, it has to be someone from Winterfell who knew him from long ago, or someone with close ties to the Starks. I said earlier that I really like Mollen and Harwin, and I do. But I also like @redriver‘s idea about Liddle.

[Prince of the North]

I'm Theon Durden all the way!  Always have been.  And it's not Theon talking to some future version of himself really.  Think of it more like "Reek" being confronted by "Theon" in his own mind.  I believe Reek/Theon's whole arc throughout ADWD is really a sort of psychlogical/existential crisis playing out largely in his own head.  It's as if he's stuggling to determine if he's going to really succumb to all the psychological and physical torture Ramsay has done to him and truly become what Ramsay wants: his Reek.  Or if he's going to fight back, take some agency for himself in defying Ramsay, and be Theon in truth?  Also, I think a huge indication of this lies in the ADWD Reek/Theon-related chapter names themselves

       

[Makk]

1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Also, I think a huge indication of this lies in the ADWD Reek/Theon-related chapter names themselves

       

This is true. From memory the chapter this occurs in is A ghost in Winterfell, and the next chapter he is finally back to Theon again. If you believe in the player vs pieces chapter naming theory, there was something in this chapter which led to him regaining agency of his own actions. 

[Ygrain]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

To someone he knows, but also someone who he knows is aware of his awful deeds. And IMO, it has to be someone from Winterfell who knew him from long ago, or someone with close ties to the Starks. I said earlier that I really like Mollen and Harwin, and I do. But I also like @redriver‘s idea about Liddle.

I'd have to do a close re-read to see for myself all those women and "women" but it's not a bad idea per se. Only, I think that given the amount of people who don't know each other cramped inside Winterfell, he could have infiltrated it perfectly on his own. They needed a lot of wood, to repair the stables as well as fuel, he could have slipped in with those.

Either way, we have a Stark man in the castle, and I suppose he is going to play a role in Ramsay's fall - which cannot come soon enough. 

[kissdbyfire]

57 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I'd have to do a close re-read to see for myself all those women and "women" but it's not a bad idea per se.

Been meaning to do that myself as well... 

57 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Only, I think that given the amount of people who don't know each other cramped inside Winterfell, he could have infiltrated it perfectly on his own. They needed a lot of wood, to repair the stables as well as fuel, he could have slipped in with those.

True.

57 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Either way, we have a Stark man in the castle, and I suppose he is going to play a role in Ramsay's fall - which cannot come soon enough. 

Preach. 

[three-eyed monkey]

12 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

I'm Theon Durden all the way!  Always have been.  And it's not Theon talking to some future version of himself really.  Think of it more like "Reek" being confronted by "Theon" in his own mind.  I believe Reek/Theon's whole arc throughout ADWD is really a sort of psychlogical/existential crisis playing out largely in his own head.  It's as if he's stuggling to determine if he's going to really succumb to all the psychological and physical torture Ramsay has done to him and truly become what Ramsay wants: his Reek.  Or if he's going to fight back, take some agency for himself in defying Ramsay, and be Theon in truth?  Also, I think a huge indication of this lies in the ADWD Reek/Theon-related chapter names themselves

Everything you say about Theon's existential crisis is true, but the turning point has nothing to do with the hooded man, it came when he heard Bran whisper his name through the weirwood tree.

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

After this the chapter names return to Theon. Later, he tells Asha what happened.

She has to understand. She is my sister. He never wanted to do any harm to Bran or Rickon. Reek made him kill those boys, not him Reek but the other one. "I am no kinslayer," he insisted. He told her how he bedded down with Ramsay's bitches, warned her that Winterfell was full of ghosts. "The swords were gone. Four, I think, or five. I don't recall. The stone kings are angry." He was shaking by then, trembling like an autumn leaf. "The heart tree knew my name. The old gods. Theon, I heard them whisper. There was no wind but the leaves were moving. Theon, they said. My name is Theon." It was good to say the name. The more he said it, the less like he was to forget. "You have to know your name," he'd told his sister.

Theon also warns her about there being ghosts in Winterfell. The swords were missing in the crypts, the stone kings, meaning the Starks, are angry. As I said, I think the hooded man is someone Theon knows from Winterfell, someone whose gaze he could not hold because he was ashamed. A member of the Stark household, possibly someone Theon thinks is dead and has returned as a ghost to avenge the Starks.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Either way, we have a Stark man in the castle, and I suppose he is going to play a role in Ramsay's fall

I agree we have a Stark man in the castle, but there are plenty of characters already working on bringing down the Boltons. I think this character is connected to that plot but perhaps with a specific role.

"I am grateful for your service, sisters," Catelyn said, "but I must lay another task upon you. Lord Eddard was a Stark, and his bones must be laid to rest beneath Winterfell." They will make a statue of him, a stone likeness that will sit in the dark with a direwolf at his feet and a sword across his knees. "Make certain the sisters have fresh horses, and aught else they need for the journey," she told Utherydes Wayn. "Hal Mollen will escort them back to Winterfell, it is his place as captain of guards."

[Free Northman Reborn]

I just realised for the first time that the Hooded Man is probably not actually Hooded. I always wondered how Theon knew their eyes were meeting if he was wearing a hood. Now it dawned on me that it is not actually stated that he was wearing his hood. Just that his cloak was hooded and it was flapping behind him in the wind. In fact, both the hood and the rest of the cloak could be flapping behind him from that description. Which explains why Theon can meet his eyes so easily.

This implies that he is not someone Theon has met before, as he does not recognize the man.

[three-eyed monkey]

26 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I just realised for the first time that the Hooded Man is probably not actually Hooded. I always wondered how Theon knew their eyes were meeting if he was wearing a hood. Now it dawned on me that it is not actually stated that he was wearing his hood. Just that his cloak was hooded and it was flapping behind him in the wind. In fact, both the hood and the rest of the cloak could be flapping behind him from that description. Which explains why Theon can meet his eyes so easily.

This implies that he is not someone Theon has met before, as he does not recognize the man.

Snow was coming down heavily and the man was wearing a hooded cloak. Generally, people keep their hoods up in the snow and if the hood was down then it would be difficult to determine if the cloak was indeed hooded or not as the man was striding towards him. I just don't see the point of it being described as a hooded cloak if the hood is not up. Seems like an unnecessary detail. It is possible to see someones eyes when they are wearing a hood, especially when you come face to face, and hooded cloaks can still flap behind you even with the hood up.

The question of recognition is certainly debatable, no question. I think the hooded man knew Theon personally, and had not seen him since Theon turned his cloak. "False is all you were," suggests to me that he knew Theon from Winterfell and a time when Theon was loyal to the Starks, which in retrospect was a false loyalty. And what random character that does not know Theon well would go for his dagger on first instinct? Sure, women laugh at him, the northmen despise him and spit on him, but this seems more personal to me. Theon and Hal were amongst Robb's closest friends.

Even when he was home at Winterfell, Robb the Lord seemed to have more time for Hallis Mollen and Theon Greyjoy than he ever did for his brothers.

Theon may not have recognized him as we have seen in the example with Arya and Harwin that it's possible to not immediately recognize someone you knew well but had not seen for some time. I think the heavy snowfall and hood would only enhance that possibility.

Or, Theon may have recognized him. Denial is a powerful state of mind. Oddly, Theon was not afraid, and pulled off his glove to show his missing fingers. Why so keen to show this stranger that he was paying for his crimes? I think this is someone Theon knows but GRRM was careful to leave it mysterious.

I'm not sure whether Theon recognized him or not but I still think it is Hal, who opened by stating the obvious once they met.

"They're coming, my lady," Hal Mollen whispered. He was always a man for stating the obvious.

"The Kingslayer," Hal announced, unnecessarily.

"A tourney," Hal Mollen declared. He had a penchant for loudly announcing the obvious.

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Theon may not have recognized him as we have seen in the example with Arya and Harwin that it's possible to not immediately recognize someone you knew well but had not seen for some time. I think the heavy snowfall and hood would only enhance that possibility.

 Or, Theon may have recognized him. Denial is a powerful state of mind. Oddly, Theon was not afraid, and pulled off his glove to show his missing fingers. Why so keen to show this stranger that he was paying for his crimes? I think this is someone Theon knows but GRRM was careful to leave it mysterious.

 I'm not sure whether Theon recognized him or not but I still think it is Hal, who opened by stating the obvious once they met.

Assuming this was someone who had just seen Theon for the first time since he became Reek, it had to be someone who knew Theon very well.  Even Asha didn’t recognize Theon until he called her his sister.  And a Theon and Hal are mentioned together quite frequently in the first book.  It appeared that when Jon left, Hal and Theon were the two that were the closest to Robb.

The thing that gives me pause is calling Theon a kinslayer.  The only other characters who refer to Theon as kinslayer are the spearwives, who also referred to Theon as a brother to Arya.  Would Hallin have thought of Theon as a kinslayer, knowing full well that he was no kin to the Starks.?

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Assuming this was someone who had just seen Theon for the first time since he became Reek, it had to be someone who knew Theon very well.  Even Asha didn’t recognize Theon until he called her his sister.  And a Theon and Hal are mentioned together quite frequently in the first book.  It appeared that when Jon left, Hal and Theon were the two that were the closest to Robb.

The thing that gives me pause is calling Theon a kinslayer.  The only other characters who refer to Theon as kinslayer are the spearwives, who also referred to Theon as a brother to Arya.  Would Hallin have thought of Theon as a kinslayer, knowing full well that he was no kin to the Starks.?

 

I don't think it's out of the ordinary. The spearwives know he is no actual kin to the Starks also. They call him kinslayer because he was raised as brothers with the people he "slayed".

[Alexis-something-Rose]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think it's out of the ordinary. The spearwives know he is no actual kin to the Starks also. They call him kinslayer because he was raised as brothers with the people he "slayed".

There's an interesting point here with the spearwives and the hooded man. I went back in the text and searched kinslayer. The hooded man is the first one to call Theon a kinslayer, before Rowan ever lops the accusation at him. She is the only spearwife who calls him that.

And for a wildling, Rowan seems rather passionately pro-Stark, especially when she tells Theon that he has no words to say Lord Eddard's words (winter is coming). 

Is there a possible connection between Rowan and the hooded man? 

[Prince of the North]

7 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Everything you say about Theon's existential crisis is true, but the turning point has nothing to do with the hooded man, it came when he heard Bran whisper his name through the weirwood tree.

[snip]

I never said nor do I think that Reek/Theon's Hooded Man encounter was the "turning point".  I think it's just another step in his psychological journey throughout ADWD.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

32 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's an interesting point here with the spearwives and the hooded man. I went back in the text and searched kinslayer. The hooded man is the first one to call Theon a kinslayer, before Rowan ever lops the accusation at him. She is the only spearwife who calls him that.

And for a wildling, Rowan seems rather passionately pro-Stark, especially when she tells Theon that he has no words to say Lord Eddard's words (winter is coming). 

Is there a possible connection between Rowan and the hooded man? 

Yes interesting. I agree Rowan seems pretty pro-Stark for a wildling. 

What are the chances Rowan is the hooded man? I would imagine Theon would have recognized her or at least recognized she was a woman unless she has a very good disguise. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes interesting. I agree Rowan seems pretty pro-Stark for a wildling. 

What are the chances Rowan is the hooded man? I would imagine Theon would have recognized her or at least recognized she was a woman unless she has a very good disguise. 

I don't think Rowan is the hooded man. I think that the hooded man may have interacted with Mance and the spearwives, though. Or he may at least have interacted with Rowan.

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Would Hallin have thought of Theon as a kinslayer, knowing full well that he was no kin to the Starks.?

It's a good question. Would anyone call Theon kinslayer knowing that Greyjoys and Starks are not kin? So we really need to explain why someone would think of Theon and the Stark boys as kin.

I think the answer lies in the fact that this is someone who knows Theon was treated more like a brother than a ward in Winterfell. Ned would not have thought of it like that, he knew Theon was a ward whose head he might have to take some grim day if Balon turned on the realm again, but I think the Stark kids, some of whom knew Theon their whole life, would have seen it differently. We are told Robb seemed to have more time for Hal and Theon than his brothers, and while I'm sure that is not really the case and it just seemed that way to a young abandoned Bran, I still feel Robb and Theon and Hal really had a brotherly relationship. So Robb was their "brother" and by extension his brothers were their "brothers". Technically it is not kinslaying but it is the next best thing, so treacherous that kinslaying is really the only thing you could call it.

I'm aware of the theory that the miller's boys were really Theon's sons as he had bedded the miller's wife a few times. I like this theory and I think it could well be true. This is the only way Theon could really be a kinslayer. If this is what the Hooded man was referring to, say after discovering the dead boys' real identities, then we have to ask who would have known about Theon and the miller's wife? Again I think Hal would be a candidate for that, and possibly one of the last living characters who could know of it.

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And for a wildling, Rowan seems rather passionately pro-Stark, especially when she tells Theon that he has no words to say Lord Eddard's words (winter is coming). 

Rowan's reaction to Theon using Lord Eddard's words suggests she is a northerner. Some believe she is an Umber as she is tall, which is one of their defining characteristics, but we have little to go on so it's impossible to tell.

We do know that Mance asked for young a pretty girls for his ploy. Mance supplied some names and Edd smuggled them from Mole Town. Mance then traveled to Winterfell via the east side of Long Lake, which is Umber land. And Abel's girls are not all young and pretty. So there is definitely something going on. Many of them are wildlings judging by the way they talk, but I think Rowan, and possibly two more, swapped in later. Rowan is the most commanding in the group and she has a good relationship with Mance. She also seems privy to his further plans as she stayed in the castle with him and told the others not to wait for her.

She might be related to Val, who some think is Crowfood's grand-daughter. She might be related to Dalla, who Mance met on his way back from Winterfell after Robert's feast, possibly traveling through Umber lands again. Or she could be an Umber, Greatjon has daughters we have not met yet. I think there could be a secret Mance-Umber connection. But I'm sticking with Hal as my prime suspect for the hooded man.

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm aware of the theory that the miller's boys were really Theon's sons as he had bedded the miller's wife a few times. I like this theory and I think it could well be true. This is the only way Theon could really be a kinslayer. If this is what the Hooded man was referring to, say after discovering the dead boys' real identities, then we have to ask who would have known about Theon and the miller's wife? Again I think Hal would be a candidate for that, and possibly one of the last living characters who could know of it.

It’s an interesting idea.  And then we have this exchange between Rowan and Theon:

Quote

“Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer.”

He smiled through his broken teeth. “You won’t. You need my tongue to get you past the guards. You need my lies.”

Rowan spat in his face. Then she let him go and wiped her gloved hands on her legs, as if just touching him had soiled her.

Theon knew he should not goad her. In her own way, this one was as dangerous as Skinner or Damon Dance-for-Me. But he was cold and tired, his head was pounding, he had not slept in days. “I have done terrible things … betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me … but I am no kinslayer.”

“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.”

So they continue to call him kinslayer knowing full well that he was not a brother to either Brandon or Rickon.  It might very well imply that the spearwives know about Theon’s dark secret even if Theon himself does not.  If so, then the Hooded Man might very well know of this as well, even if he likewise knows that Theon was not kin to the Starks.