The search goes on for the Hooded Man

[Alexis-something-Rose]

39 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

We do know that Mance asked for young a pretty girls for his ploy. Mance supplied some names and Edd smuggled them from Mole Town. Mance then traveled to Winterfell via the east side of Long Lake, which is Umber land. And Abel's girls are not all young and pretty. So there is definitely something going on. Many of them are wildlings judging by the way they talk, but I think Rowan, and possibly two more, swapped in later. Rowan is the most commanding in the group and she has a good relationship with Mance. She also seems privy to his further plans as she stayed in the castle with him and told the others not to wait for her.

Without quoting your whole reply since I've seen the speculations about Rowan being possibly Umber or northerner and Val being a granddaughter of Mors Umber.

I think the interesting thing is the point of intersection between the hooded man and Rowan. The hooded man and Rowan are the only two people to call Theon a kinslayer, so maybe they had a chat. Rowan links directly to Mance. 

Perhaps the whole reason the hooded man, whoever he may be, lets Theon walk away without harming him is because he is aware that Mance intends to use Theon to rescue "Arya."

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Without quoting your whole reply since I've seen the speculations about Rowan being possibly Umber or northerner and Val being a granddaughter of Mors Umber.

I think the interesting thing is the point of intersection between the hooded man and Rowan. The hooded man and Rowan are the only two people to call Theon a kinslayer, so maybe they had a chat. Rowan links directly to Mance. 

Perhaps the whole reason the hooded man, whoever he may be, lets Theon walk away without harming him is because he is aware that Mance intends to use Theon to rescue "Arya."

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So they continue to call him kinslayer knowing full well that he was not a brother to either Brandon or Rickon.  It might very well imply that the spearwives know about Theon’s dark secret even if Theon himself does not.  If so, then the Hooded Man might very well know of this as well, even if he likewise knows that Theon was not kin to the Starks.

You guys make good points. And when you look at it like that the mystery certainly deepens. But there is possibly a more straight forward answer.

Squirrel slipped away, soft-footed as she always was. Rowan walked Theon from the hall. Since she and her sisters had found him in the godswood, one of them had dogged his every step, never letting him out of sight. They did not trust him. Why should they? I was Reek before and might be Reek again. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

The washerwomen were keeping a close eye on Theon at all times, they had to, especially after the meeting with Mance in the Broken Tower. They didn't trust him and would have had a legitimate fear he might break and blow the whistle on the planned rescue. So did one of them follow Theon when he left the hall and witness or overhear his brief encounter with the hooded man?

Rowan only fires kinslayer at Theon after he accuses them of murdering Little Walder. So maybe she's just saying it as an insult? An insult that she or one of her sisters had heard the hooded man level at Theon?

And a final, more bland possibility that cannot be ignored is that she might just be calling him kinslayer because he killed his foster brothers.

...Other men turned away at the sight of him. One spat. And why not? He was the traitor who had taken Winterfell by treachery, slain his foster brothers,...

Of course, the same could be said of the hooded man. I just feel his unprovoked action, reaching for his dagger at the sight of Theon, makes it seem a little more personal than Rowan's retort to being accused of murdering Little Walder.

[Back in Black-Snow]

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Snow was coming down heavily and the man was wearing a hooded cloak. Generally, people keep their hoods up in the snow and if the hood was down then it would be difficult to determine if the cloak was indeed hooded or not as the man was striding towards him. I just don't see the point of it being described as a hooded cloak if the hood is not up. Seems like an unnecessary detail. It is possible to see someones eyes when they are wearing a hood, especially when you come face to face, and hooded cloaks can still flap behind you even with the hood up.

The question of recognition is certainly debatable, no question. I think the hooded man knew Theon personally, and had not seen him since Theon turned his cloak. "False is all you were," suggests to me that he knew Theon from Winterfell and a time when Theon was loyal to the Starks, which in retrospect was a false loyalty. And what random character that does not know Theon well would go for his dagger on first instinct? Sure, women laugh at him, the northmen despise him and spit on him, but this seems more personal to me. Theon and Hal were amongst Robb's closest friends.

Even when he was home at Winterfell, Robb the Lord seemed to have more time for Hallis Mollen and Theon Greyjoy than he ever did for his brothers.

Theon may not have recognized him as we have seen in the example with Arya and Harwin that it's possible to not immediately recognize someone you knew well but had not seen for some time. I think the heavy snowfall and hood would only enhance that possibility.

Or, Theon may have recognized him. Denial is a powerful state of mind. Oddly, Theon was not afraid, and pulled off his glove to show his missing fingers. Why so keen to show this stranger that he was paying for his crimes? I think this is someone Theon knows but GRRM was careful to leave it mysterious.

I'm not sure whether Theon recognized him or not but I still think it is Hal, who opened by stating the obvious once they met.

"They're coming, my lady," Hal Mollen whispered. He was always a man for stating the obvious.

"The Kingslayer," Hal announced, unnecessarily.

"A tourney," Hal Mollen declared. He had a penchant for loudly announcing the obvious.

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

 

I very much agree with this. And what I mean by that is, I just recently ran into a girl I spent 7 years with in school every day. We were good friends, but life happens and I haven't seen or spoken to her since high school. It was only after we passed each other in a hallway that it clicked who she was. I contacted her via Facebook to confirm it was her, and it was.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

There's an interesting point here with the spearwives and the hooded man. I went back in the text and searched kinslayer. The hooded man is the first one to call Theon a kinslayer, before Rowan ever lops the accusation at him. She is the only spearwife who calls him that.

Well, we’ve learned a bit about how the Free Folk see kinship from Ygritte.

ASoS, Jon III

“Who was he?”
“A boy at a feast, five years past. He’d come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t’ try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once.”
“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

The FF, w/ the info they have, Theon is most definitely a kinslayer. 

 

[Frey family reunion]

33 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Rowan only fires kinslayer at Theon after he accuses them of murdering Little Walder. So maybe she's just saying it as an insult? An insult that she or one of her sisters had heard the hooded man level at Theon?

 And a final, more bland possibility that cannot be ignored is that she might just be calling him kinslayer because he killed his foster brothers.

Maybe, probably.  It just seems that kinslayer is such a specific crime, and taken so seriously,  acknowledged to be a crime cursed by the gods, that especially a northerner or a wildling would not just throw the term around as a general insult.  And it seems that the curse goes beyond the intent of the killer, but is inherent in those who kill their own blood, whether that blood is acknowledged or not:

Quote

“So the son slew the father instead,” said Jon.

”Aye,” she said, “but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing.

It does make me wonder if any of these spearwives may have originally been from around the Acorn Water area, and know who’s responsible for the deaths of the children of the Miller’s wife and also know or suspect who the father really is.

[Frey family reunion]

10 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we’ve learned a bit about how the Free Folk see kinship from Ygritte.

ASoS, Jon III

“Who was he?”
“A boy at a feast, five years past. He’d come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t’ try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once.”
“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.
She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

The FF, w/ the info they have, Theon is most definitely a kinslayer. 

 

I dunno, I think her point is that these are isolated villages are made up of “kin”, i.e. brothers, fathers and cousins.  Too much intermarrying amongst only those you live around up North are going to have genetic consequences, i.e. the those that are cursed with weak and sickly children or monsters.

It would have been well known that Theon was “stolen” from a village very far from Winterfell.  He was certainly no clan kin of the Starks.

[three-eyed monkey]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It just seems that kinslayer is such a specific crime, and taken so seriously,  acknowledged to be a crime cursed by the gods, that especially a northerner or a wildling would not just throw the term around as a general insult.  

I agree, it's not a term that would be thrown around as a general insult. Murdering people that are not kin is not kinslaying. But murdering people you grew up with in a foster-brother relationship seems closer to kinslaying than murder in general. What Theon did is not kinslaying in terms of the letter of the law but it sort of is in terms of the spirit of the law, so I can see how it is a more apt label than calling him murderer.

24 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It does make me wonder if any of these spearwives may have originally been from around the Acorn Water area, and know who’s responsible for the deaths of the children of the Miller’s wife and also know or suspect who the father really is.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking when I read your earlier post and the follow up by @Alexis-something-Rose but does that mean we are dealing with a plot involving minor characters that have been unnamed up until now? I suspect if it was a plot involving people living the vicinity of the mill, we might have at least have had mention of them back in earlier books, whenever Acorn Water was mentioned. I can't remember if anyone other than the miller's wife was mentioned back then. Going to have to re-read that part if I can find it.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well, we’ve learned a bit about how the Free Folk see kinship from Ygritte.

I'm not disputing this at all. What I'm saying is that Rowan and the hooded man have no connection that we know of, yet they call Theon is a kinslayer one chapter apart. And they are the only ones who do so.

I just think this possibly opens a door for an interaction between the hooded man and Abel/spearwives, that's all I'm saying. I think it's possible that GRRM might have been connecting the characters like that. 

Anyway, I feel like I'm circling the drain, so I'm going to bow out.

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not disputing this at all. What I'm saying is that Rowan and the hooded man have no connection that we know of, yet they call Theon is a kinslayer one chapter apart. And they are the only ones who do so.

I just think this possibly opens a door for an interaction between the hooded man and Abel/spearwives, that's all I'm saying. I think it's possible that GRRM might have been connecting the characters like that. 

Anyway, I feel like I'm circling the drain, so I'm going to bow out.

Sorry, I probably wasn’t clear. I know you weren’t disputing the FF’s view or anything like that. And I very much agree w/ what you said about the HM and the spearwives and/or Mance having interacted. I was just trying to add to what you said, not disagree. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sorry, I probably wasn’t clear. I know you weren’t disputing the FF’s view or anything like that. And I very much agree w/ what you said about the HM and the spearwives and/or Mance having interacted. I was just trying to add to what you said, not disagree. 

My bad for the misunderstanding.

[Lady Dacey]

I'm really enjoying this thread!

Joining in late with just a few ideas from the top of my head...

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It's a good question. Would anyone call Theon kinslayer knowing that Greyjoys and Starks are not kin? So we really need to explain why someone would think of Theon and the Stark boys as kin.

Might be that the hooded man knows Theon never killed Bran and Rickon Stark, but the miller's boys, and might be he knows one or both of the miller's boy's might actually be Theon's. I'm not convinced, but I've seen some people suggest it. I don't think it's unreasonable, but it's unlikely... 

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

We do know that Mance asked for young a pretty girls for his ploy. Mance supplied some names and Edd smuggled them from Mole Town.

I'd like to propose a new take on Rowan-is-a-northener theory. I agree there is very convincing textual evidence that she isn't from the free folk. Now I'm thinking that Edd went to fetch women from Mole's Town and maybe the company of six he eventually assembled was never spearwife-only? I remember when Jon goes to Mole's Town before the first wildling charge in asos there is a whore who joins Castle Black's defenses, I think her name was Jal? I'm not sure. I bring this up because maybe the women Edd Tolled recruited for the mission was from the very start a mixed-company of wildling spearwives and fierce northern woman, most likely whores, willing to participate. What do you think? 

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

"They're coming, my lady," Hal Mollen whispered. He was always a man for stating the obvious.

"The Kingslayer," Hal announced, unnecessarily.

"A tourney," Hal Mollen declared. He had a penchant for loudly announcing the obvious.

Farther on, he came upon a man striding in the opposite direction, a hooded cloak flapping behind him. When they found themselves face-to-face their eyes met briefly. The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

This is my favourite argument for Hallis Mollen as the hooded man! 

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

. What Theon did is not kinslaying in terms of the letter of the law but it sort of is in terms of the spirit of the law, so I can see how it is a more apt label than calling him murderer.

It's basically a similar situation as when Obi-wan tells Anakin he was his brother. The Starks were not kin, but they were like kin to Theon.

6 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yeah, this is what I was thinking when I read your earlier post and the follow up by @Alexis-something-Rose but does that mean we are dealing with a plot involving minor characters that have been unnamed up until now? I suspect if it was a plot involving people living the vicinity of the mill, we might have at least have had mention of them back in earlier books, whenever Acorn Water was mentioned. I can't remember if anyone other than the miller's wife was mentioned back then. Going to have to re-read that part if I can find it.

If people knew Theon slept with the miller's wife, I think murdering her sons might be perceived a notch above a"common" murder but not qualified as kinslaying unless they knew,  or suspected, Theon's paternity. However: would anyone know? I don't think it would be in the wife's interest to be indiscreet about her infidelity before her neighbours, and Theon, who wouldn't have bothered with such things, wouldn't have talked to random smallfolk about his exploits. He might have bragged about it in front of his pals, for which Hal would qualify, but how would Hal figure out whose bodies were used as "Bran" and "Rickon"? Would the neighbours be able to figure out the connection between two missing bodies and two killed Starks?

Also, I had a look at ACOK and Theon recollects "tumbling her once or twice", and stretchmarks on her belly, meaning that at least the elder boy had been born by then.

IMHO, miller's wife's children are not the reason for the "kinslayer" label, the connection to the Starks is, among whom Theon was raised like one of them.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

16 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Also, I had a look at ACOK and Theon recollects "tumbling her once or twice", and stretchmarks on her belly, meaning that at least the elder boy had been born by then.

Great observation.

17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

IMHO, miller's wife's children are not the reason for the "kinslayer" label, the connection to the Starks is, among whom Theon was raised like one of them.

[three-eyed monkey]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'd like to propose a new take on Rowan-is-a-northener theory. I agree there is very convincing textual evidence that she isn't from the free folk. Now I'm thinking that Edd went to fetch women from Mole's Town and maybe the company of six he eventually assembled was never spearwife-only? I remember when Jon goes to Mole's Town before the first wildling charge in asos there is a whore who joins Castle Black's defenses, I think her name was Jal? I'm not sure. I bring this up because maybe the women Edd Tolled recruited for the mission was from the very start a mixed-company of wildling spearwives and fierce northern woman, most likely whores, willing to participate. What do you think? 

Yes I think it is very possible that a northern woman or women infiltrated Mole Town and was part of the group Edd picked up. The northerners were watching Jon so it seems very plausible to me. But I also like the idea of a Mance-Umber connection. I feel Mance might have been networking south of the Wall before moving his host south.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree, it's not a term that would be thrown around as a general insult. Murdering people that are not kin is not kinslaying. But murdering people you grew up with in a foster-brother relationship seems closer to kinslaying than murder in general. What Theon did is not kinslaying in terms of the letter of the law but it sort of is in terms of the spirit of the law, so I can see how it is a more apt label than calling him murderer.

I think the easiest explanation is that GRRM needed to steer Theon's POV (and thus the reader's attention) back to the children of the Miller's wife, so the easiest and most organic way of doing it, was to have other characters unjustifiably (in Theon's mind) accuse him of being a kinslayer.  It also subliminally causes the reader to associate the term kinslayer with Theon's role in murdering the children of the Miller's wife.   That's probably the only reason.  Probably.

[Lady Dacey]

8 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes I think it is very possible that a northern woman or women infiltrated Mole Town and was part of the group Edd picked up

“Infiltrated” is too strong a word. I propose she never hid who she was in the first place... Mance and the other women in her company must have been okay with a northern common woman being part of the crew. I take it wasn’t that easy to find six young and pretty spearwives willing to volunteer to go with Mance retrieve Arya, so Edd ended up with a mixed bunch of young and old, pretty and ugly, free folk and northern. 

[Frey family reunion]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

If people knew Theon slept with the miller's wife, I think murdering her sons might be perceived a notch above a"common" murder but not qualified as kinslaying unless they knew,  or suspected, Theon's paternity. However: would anyone know? I don't think it would be in the wife's interest to be indiscreet about her infidelity before her neighbours, and Theon, who wouldn't have bothered with such things, wouldn't have talked to random smallfolk about his exploits. He might have bragged about it in front of his pals, for which Hal would qualify, but how would Hal figure out whose bodies were used as "Bran" and "Rickon"? Would the neighbours be able to figure out the connection between two missing bodies and two killed Starks?

While I think that you’re probably right, that the reference to kinslayer is probably more a reference to Theon’s status as a foster brother to the Starks, I think there is enough leeway in the story that Theon’s secret could have come out.

Theon and Ramsay brought three iron born with them when they killed the Miller’s wife and her children.  The three iron born were subsequently killed back at Winterfell but it wasn’t to several days after they returned.  So it’s at least possible that some word may have come out as to the boys’ true identities.

As for having a motive to reveal that Theon was the possible father, we have to look no further than the tale of the miller’s wife with Roose Bolton.  The miller’s wife at Acorn Water could have complained to to someone in the Stark household or possibly Eddard himself that Eddard’s ward got her pregnant so she could be provided financial support for the children.

 Ramsay relates that the old knight (probably Rodrick) clucked over the children while they got hay for their horses.  It might very well be that Rodrick was already familiar with the Mill and the children for the above reason.

Hal may have been in the position to have learned this, when he and Robb visited Winterfell’s holdfasts in Eddard’s absence.  

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for having a motive to reveal that Theon was the possible father, we have to look no further than the tale of the miller’s wife with Roose Bolton.  

IIRC, Roose hanged the miller, that's kinda difficult to conceal, and his paternity was revealed by the child's pale eyes.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

The miller’s wife at Acorn Water could have complained to to someone in the Stark household or possibly Eddard himself that Eddard’s ward got her pregnant so she could be provided financial support for the children.

Definitely not to The Ned, or else Theon would have had an unpleasant memory of being chided by him. Furthermore, Theon himself would have known about his paternity.

Also, he mentioned in ACOK that he slept with her once or twice, i.e. not an ongoing relationship, and he recalls her stretchmarks, so he could be the father of the younger boy at best.

[Lady Dacey]

17 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

But I also like the idea of a Mance-Umber connection. I feel Mance might have been networking south of the Wall before moving his host south.

I don’t find it so very likely. I might be very wrong, but the way I see it if Mance had always had the political ability to negotiate his way south with the northern lords there would be no point to Jon’s arc. Umber’s words to Stannis stating their thirst for revenge don’t strike me as a ruse because I identify cultural biases that arise from ethnocentric world views as one of the things the author is actively trying and succeeding to depict. If it were all a ruse, well, I’ll be disappointed - what is there to overcome if not the mutual prejudice? 

In the thread @kissdbyfire provided the link for, the one where it’s proposed the hooded man is a Liddle, there is an argument that the clans might be aligned with the free folk. I’m not sure I’d go as far as say they are working together, but I can see the clans having a more sympathetic view on “wildlings” than proper aristocratic lords like the Umber and the Karstarks. 

Mance had been a man of the Night’s Watch and as a leader of the free folk he was convinced that to go south of the Wall he’d have to fight his way through. Mance is not obtuse, I don’t think he’d miscalculate that. What changes things radically is the arrival of Jon Snow: he is a natural son to Eddard Stark and becomes the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, therefore he has political leverage, and he is a man with a personal interest in bringing every human being together in the face of the supernatural threat that looms north of the Wall. Things do change. And Mance is not stupid. 

Going back to the original meaning of this thread and trying to tie this back to the hooded man, it is interesting that Rowan only calls Theon kinslayer after the mysterious encounter he has with the HM. I had never noticed that before it was brought up here. I propose we could indeed have a Mance-Umber alliance, or maybe a general Mance-‘Stark loyalists’ / Mance-‘anti-Bolton’ alliance through the spearwives. For all we know they’ve been having sex with many of the men around Winterfell, high-raking and low-ranking men, and that is a great means to gather information on who is who and make connections. Rowan and the hooded man, whoever he is (I do not buy Theon Durden for a second), might have connected in more ways than one. Mance could’ve/should’ve forged new alliances while in Winterfell. 

[Lady Dacey]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 So it’s at least possible that some word may have come out as to the boys’ true identities.

It has. There are people who are awere of the boys' true identities. We don't know exactly how, but the Liddle Bran meets in the cave tells him that Ramsey Bolton is paying for information on the real scaped Stark boys. Ramsey is not stupid and is well awere that Bran and Rickon are pieces still moving and an that they represent enourmous threat to him if they ever show up. So he is trying to quietly locate the Starks, but apparently he is not as quiet as he should have been, and others, such as this Liddle himself, might already know the corpses Theon exhibited didn't belong to Bran and Rickon. So goes the quote:

The Liddle took out a knife and whittled at a stick. "When there was a Stark in Winterfell, a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested, and travelers could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and holdfast. But the nights are colder now, and doors are closed. There's squids in the wolfswood, and flayed men ride the kingsroad asking after strangers."

The Reeds exchanged a look. "Flayed men?" said Jojen.

"The Bastard's boys, aye. He was dead, but now he's not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead." He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him. ASOS Bran II

Besides, Maester Luwin had always known Bran had not been killed:

Gently, they eased Luwin onto his back. He had grey eyes and grey hair, and once his robes had been grey as well, but they were darker now where the blood had soaked through. "Bran," he said softly when he saw him sitting tall on Hodor's back. "And Rickon too." He smiled. "The gods are good. I knew . . ."

"Knew?" said Bran uncertainly.

"The legs, I could tell . . . the clothes fit, but the muscles in his legs . . . poor lad . . ." He coughed, and blood came up from inside him. "You vanished . . . in the woods . . . how, though?" ACOK Bran VII

This is less likely, but it's not impossible that Luwin also confided in some of the Winterfell men that it wasn't Bran at all. Between the killing of the miller's boys and the sack of Winterfell there might have been comings and goings, and word got out.