Jaime as the Golden Lion

[Arthur Peres]

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime is there a long time saying that one should mean the threats made etc, then goes  a long deal  threatening Edmure and  his unborn child  alongside the entire Riverrun and  before that he wanted to settle  things with the Blackfish with a sword, i mean, that's not even close to have conflicting oaths, he's ignoring the oath he swore  when it's convenient for him to do that and  embrace it when again it's convenient. Like he has always done with every oath he swore, he wants to be a true Kingsguard but he still see no problem about keep banging his sister and  the only thing that droves him away is the fact she is becoming a hilarious mix of Robert and  Aerys and  later the fact he was horned.

 

Lol. I never picked up on Cersei becoming a mix of Robert and Aerys, this is hilarious now that I think about it.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime is there a long time saying that one should mean the threats made etc, then goes  a long deal  threatening Edmure and  his unborn child  alongside the entire Riverrun

Yes, and he meant it. His oath to serve his King dictated that he must take Riverrun. His oath to Catelyn dictated that he must not take up arms against Stark nor Tully. Taking Riverrun without bloodshed fulfilled both oaths as best he could. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

and  before that he wanted to settle  things with the Blackfish with a sword,

Wanted to, but didn't. Because of his oath, perhaps.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

he's ignoring the oath he swore  when it's convenient for him to do that and  embrace it when again it's convenient.

Indeed?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Like he has always done with every oath he swore, he wants to be a true Kingsguard but he still see no problem about keep banging his sister

Jaime also swore some things to his sister:

His sister flinched. "You swore that you would always love me. It is not loving to make me beg."

He wants to be true to the Kingsguard, he wants to be true to his sister. Once again, he's doing the best he can. Which, admittedly, is rather poor, but a lose-lose situation tends to be.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

the only thing that droves him away is the fact she is becoming a hilarious mix of Robert and  Aerys and  later the fact he was horned.

he wouldn't waste his life there if he knew Cersei was horning him.

Charming. Regardless, I disagree. He's turning away from Cersei because he no longer thinks she's the person he believed her to be. Cersei's cheating is part of that, but no the whole issue.

"You great golden fool. He's lied to you a thousand times, and so have I."

The day his sister had come to White Sword Tower to beg him to renounce his vows, she had laughed after he refused her and boasted of having lied to him a thousand times. Jaime had taken that for a clumsy attempt to hurt him as he'd hurt her. It may have been the only true thing that she ever said to me.

He no longer knows what to believe about her.

58 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Tyrion knows Jaime better than Jaime himself.

Once, maybe.

58 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Before be sent to the Riverlands Jaime was offered the position of Hand, where he could protect Tommen much more efficient, he turned that down but took the first chance to go to the Riverlands, just like Tyrion said. 

“It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father’s place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you …” He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face.

“A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don’t ask me to rule.”

It's worth considering that this is the morning after he lost his father (which he completely blames himself for), lost his brother, and lost the image of his sister. His level of grief is pretty high, and he obviously wasn't thinking clearly, else he wouldn't have rebuffed her so crassly so publicly.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

but took the first chance to go to the Riverlands

Did he?

"I will make a bargain with you. Relieve me of this duty, and my razor is yours to command."

Her mouth tightened. She had been drinking hot spiced wine and smelled of nutmeg. "You presume to dicker with me? Need I remind you, you are sworn to obey."

"I am sworn to protect the king. My place is at his side."

"Your place is wherever he sends you."

"Tommen puts his seal on every paper that you put in front of him. This is your doing, and it's folly. Why name Daven your Warden of the West if you have no faith in him?"

Yes, he clearly jumped at the opportunity to leave King's Landing. He didn't want to, but he did his duty.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure he is changing, but the core of his character still the same, he still a selfcentered, narcisitic, prick, that has Cersei as his main concern, but now he is angry instead of in love with her.

He built his life around Cersei. It's not exactly surprising that it revolves around her. She'll always be his main concern. He loves her. He's angry with her and he loves her, not instead of.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

He is not keeping his promise to Catelyn, he is pushing her family out of their castle, while he threatned to catapult her nephew to the walls, and he leaved taking her brother as hostage

Edmure was already a hostage, it wasn't anything to blame on Jaime. As to the rest, he made the threats to avoid breaking the oath. Was the threat genuine? Yes. Would it have broken the oath? Yes. Does the threat itself break the oath? No. Jaime never swore to uphold Tully interests, or to protect the Tullys. He swore to not take up arms against them, and he kept that oath.

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

he send a single knight, that already was sworn to Catelyn , to look for a girl she doesn't know and call it quits. 

That's understating things, isn't it? To help her in her task, Jaime gave Brienne a Valyrian Steel sword, a letter demanding assistance from the King's loyal subjects, and money for all else. He did all he could to assist her. What more could be done? He could order Lannister soldiers to find her, but Cersei would tell them "no". He could order the Kingsguard to find her, but that's not their duty. He could travel the land in search of her himself, but doing so would shirk his other duties. How could he keep his oath to Catelyn without breaking his oath to his King?

1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

He never wanted to be the heir to CR, he never wanted to rule as Tyrion pointed out. He is changing but he is still him.

You can't expect someone to not be themselves. He was always him. He is fundamentally the same person, and always will be, I agree. He was always someone who wanted to be decent, and now he's someone who is acting on that. He's trying to be the best version of himself, not a good version of somebody else. Once again, I find that admirable.

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yes, and he meant it. His oath to serve his King dictated that he must take Riverrun. His oath to Catelyn dictated that he must not take up arms against Stark nor Tully. Taking Riverrun without bloodshed fulfilled both oaths as best he could. 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

So, you are ignoring that he was about to kill Tullys had they not given him what he wanted?? That he indeed had an army outside the Tully's ancestral seat??

 

16 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Wanted to, but didn't. Because of his oath, perhaps.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

No, because the Blackfish spate him in the face.

 

16 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Indeed?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Indeed. How do you explain then, him banging his sister and at the same time saying to his father that he can't leave the KG??

 

16 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Jaime also swore some things to his sister:

His sister flinched. "You swore that you would always love me. It is not loving to make me beg."

He wants to be true to the Kingsguard, he wants to be true to his sister. Once again, he's doing the best he can. Which, admittedly, is rather poor, but a lose-lose situation tends to be.

You can love your sister without banging her, you know that right??  This is not a lose-lose situation, so there is no point in keep trying to find loopholes that justifies his amorality in your mind, Jaime does not have to bang Cersei, he wanted to, he joined the KG to bang her, he stayed to bang her and had she not horned, he'd still be ready to bang her.

 

 

16 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Charming. Regardless, I disagree. He's turning away from Cersei because he no longer thinks she's the person he believed her to be. Cersei's cheating is part of that, but no the whole issue.

"You great golden fool. He's lied to you a thousand times, and so have I."

The day his sister had come to White Sword Tower to beg him to renounce his vows, she had laughed after he refused her and boasted of having lied to him a thousand times. Jaime had taken that for a clumsy attempt to hurt him as he'd hurt her. It may have been the only true thing that she ever said to me.

He no longer knows what to believe about her.

And he don't know what to believe about her because he was horned, i could cherry pick too but Jaime repeating the she might fucked moon boy too for all i care all his chapters speks better for me,

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

It's worth considering that this is the morning after he lost his father (which he completely blames himself for), lost his brother, and lost the image of his sister. His level of grief is pretty high, and he obviously wasn't thinking clearly, else he wouldn't have rebuffed her so crassly so publicly.

Does not change the fact, Jaime is running away from rulling and responsability at any chance he gets. Several other characters had faced similar situations and were forced to take matters on their on hands. Jaime is always refusing it.

 

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yes, he clearly jumped at the opportunity to leave King's Landing. He didn't want to, but he did his duty.

He then refused to go back to KL later on when summoned and burned Cersei's letter.

Jaime does not care about oaths, duty or Tommen, his main concern is Cersei, before finding out about being "cheated" he made everything in his power to pleasure her without any thoughts, judgement or regreats. After that he made everything possible to piss her off. All his thoughts always go back to Cersei.

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Edmure was already a hostage, it wasn't anything to blame on Jaime. As to the rest, he made the threats to avoid breaking the oath. Was the threat genuine? Yes. Would it have broken the oath? Yes. Does the threat itself break the oath? No. Jaime never swore to uphold Tully interests, or to protect the Tullys. He swore to not take up arms against them, and he kept that oath.

Threat of violence, already is violence and a crime in itself, and he did not just throw words at play here, he cast out the Tullys out of Riverrun and tried to kill the Blackfish. He broke the oath the moment he took control of the siege.

 

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

That's understating things, isn't it? To help her in her task, Jaime gave Brienne a Valyrian Steel sword, a letter demanding assistance from the King's loyal subjects, and money for all else. He did all he could to assist her. What more could be done? He could order Lannister soldiers to find her, but Cersei would tell them "no". He could order the Kingsguard to find her, but that's not their duty. He could travel the land in search of her himself, but doing so would shirk his other duties. How could he keep his oath to Catelyn without breaking his oath to his King?

The sword he gave her, was a heirdoom of the house his father sacked, so returning stolen goods that were violeted does little favor on my opinion, (but that's me). I had forgotten about the letter, so I give you that.

What else he could have done? Look for her himself 

Shrik his other duties? he never acted on any of them Lol. Refused any chance to rule, being Casterly rock or Hand of the king, when called back he burned the letter and has now disapeared for months.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Threat of violence, already is violence and a crime in itself, and he did not just throw words at play here, he cast out the Tullys out of Riverrun and tried to kill the Blackfish. He broke the oath the moment he took control of the siege.

I disagree. The oath was to not take up arms against the Tully's so he did not break the oath the moment he took control of the siege. This oath was also forced out of him at knife point so I don't know how much pressure he would be under to keep it. Still he tried to. 

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

sword he gave her, was a heirdoom of the house his father sacked, so returning stolen goods that were violeted does little favor on my opinion, (but that's me). I had forgotten about the letter, so I give you that.

Jaime didn't take the sword & was under no obligation to give it to Brienne or anyone. The sword, the letter, & the funds all show Jaime trying to do the right thing. Again, he was under no obligation to do any of this so what might his motive be if it isn't to be just? 

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

What else he could have done? Look for her himself

& In doing that would break another oath, like the poster above said. 

5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Shrik his other duties? he never acted on any of them Lol. Refused any chance to rule, being Casterly rock or Hand of the king, when called back he burned the letter and has now disapeared for months.

It's hardly fair to condemn the man for shirking duties in one instance & then condemn him for not shirking duties in the next. The whole point is Jaime is trying to balance things. 

Refusing Casterly Rock wasn't shirking his duties, it was upholding them. He swore an oath to the KG. The same with being the hand. 

Again you are being contradictive. In one instance you condemn him for only thinking of Cersei but here condemn him for ignoring her. He is trying to be a better person, changing his ways etc. In the past he only thought of Cersei. Now he is trying to do what is right. 

[Arthur Peres]

55 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. The oath was to not take up arms against the Tully's so he did not break the oath the moment he took control of the siege. This oath was also forced out of him at knife point so I don't know how much pressure he would be under to keep it. Still he tried to. 

Don't know from where you are, but where I live, if you play you words like Joe Pesci you will get arrested. Threat of violence to force someone to do something already is violence.

56 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jaime didn't take the sword & was under no obligation to give it to Brienne or anyone. The sword, the letter, & the funds all show Jaime trying to do the right thing. Again, he was under no obligation to do any of this so what might his motive be if it isn't to be just? 

Never said he was, but it does not change much of my view about him.

58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's hardly fair to condemn the man for shirking duties in one instance & then condemn him for not shirking duties in the next. The whole point is Jaime is trying to balance things. 

He never took any of them serious to begin with. His KG oaths were a joke before he made them and the only purpuse was to keep sleeping with Cersei.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Refusing Casterly Rock wasn't shirking his duties, it was upholding them. He swore an oath to the KG. The same with being the hand. 

Never said it was, I said that refusing the CR was him running away from ruling, and he still does it in the KG when he refuses the Hand position.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 Again you are being contradictive. In one instance you condemn him for only thinking of Cersei but here condemn him for ignoring her. He is trying to be a better person, changing his ways etc. In the past he only thought of Cersei. Now he is trying to do what is right. 

He is not ignoring her, he is getting back at her. 

Do not forget , that he only changed his feelings for her because she cheated on him, not because he realized she is a terrible person and felt morally repulsed. As long as he thought she was faithful and loved him, he had no problem doing terrible things for her and her terrible acts weren't an issue for him at all.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

24 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

know from where you are, but where I live, if you play you words like Joe Pesci you will get arrested. Threat of violence to force someone to do something already is violence.

Well it depends who you are as to whether or not it's a crime. For instance, police can threaten violence pretty much whenever they see fit. At any rate it doesn't seem to be a crime in Westeros. I don't see that has anything to do with the issue at hand though. Jaime swore (at sword point) not to take up arms against the Tully's. He never swore not to threaten them. There are many who would argue that an oath taken at sword point is null & void anyway. 

27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He never took any of them serious to begin with. His KG oaths were a joke before he made them and the only purpuse was to keep sleeping with Cersei

Maybe so & maybe no but regardless to say he always shirks his responsibilities & then to say he should have shirked his responsibilities when he didn't is contradictory. 

29 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Never said it was, I said that refusing the CR was him running away from ruling, and he still does it in the KG when he refuses the Hand position

My bad, I guess I assumed from your over all negative feelings towards Jaime that you saw this as shirking his responsibilities again. If it's not, what is the negative to not wanting to rule? Many people don't want to rule. This isn't a bad thing IMO.

30 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He is not ignoring her, he is getting back at her. 

Do not forget , that he only changed his feelings for her because she cheated on him, not because he realized she is a terrible person and felt morally repulsed. As long as he thought she was faithful and loved him, he had no problem doing terrible things for her and her terrible acts weren't an issue for him at all.

Well no not really. Several things happened at once - he lost his hand & started changing as a person. At the same time he started to realize the truth about who Cersei is & so decided to take a different path - ignoring Cersei. 

Any which way you look at it his thoughts & actions have changed. 

[Eli Cross]

Jaime is the white lion whose pelt will soon leave his body and join the Hrakkar pelt in Dany's closet.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

On 10/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, frenin said:

So, you are ignoring that he was about to kill Tullys had they not given him what he wanted?? That he indeed had an army outside the Tully's ancestral seat??

...no? Pretty sure I made a direct reference to that. Had they not capitulated, he would have done something to break his oath. As they did capitulate, he needn't have taken up arms against them. Oath not broken. Unless you think that Jaime swore to keep the Tully in their ancestral seat.

On 10/15/2019 at 8:11 PM, frenin said:

You can love your sister without banging her, you know that right??

Fascinating. Who knew? Do you truly think that was what Jaime swore to Cersei? That he'd love her forever, in a platonic and brotherly manner? I don't. Or do you think that oaths should be about their exact words, regardless of context and intended meaning? I don't.

On 10/15/2019 at 9:42 PM, Arthur Peres said:

He then refused to go back to KL later on when summoned and burned Cersei's letter.

Is it his duty to go and fight a trial by combat? I think not.

Also, it amuses me to note, Jaime only accompanied Brienne because he wanted to assure the safety of Sansa, so as to uphold his oath to Catelyn.:

"My lord, you gave me a quest."

"The girl. Have you found her?"

"I have," said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

"Where is she?"

"A day's ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her."

He also left with her after his other duties (which is to say, to pacify the Riverlands) were taken care of. Perhaps the argument could be made that he ought to have returned to King's Landing to report back before undertaking other tasks, but it doesn't seem fair to judge him harshly for choosing to go with Brienne.

On 10/15/2019 at 9:42 PM, Arthur Peres said:

All his thoughts always go back to Cersei.

That's hardly a surprise, is it? For decades, she's been the most important person to him, he built his entire life around her. He'd have to be a callous person indeed to completely disregard her.

On 10/15/2019 at 9:42 PM, Arthur Peres said:

The sword he gave her, was a heirdoom of the house his father sacked, so returning stolen goods that were violeted does little favor on my opinion, (but that's me).

You're saying he should have kept it, then? Jaime didn't steal it, and returning lost property seems a good thing to me, so... I'm not really sure how this doesn't count in Jaime's favour.

As to the rest, I am in complete agreement with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar. Which is a surprising turn of events, heh.

On 10/16/2019 at 5:15 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Many people don't want to rule. This isn't a bad thing IMO.

I agree. It's only a negative if you do it in the manner of, say, King Robert, who is already ruling and therefore lets his kingdom go to rot. Better to have a ruler who actually wants to rule, I'd say. (Well, hopefully they're halfway competent, too. Perhaps King Robert was doomed either way, heh.)

[frenin]

On 10/17/2019 at 11:19 AM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

...no? Pretty sure I made a direct reference to that. Had they not capitulated, he would have done something to break his oath. As they did capitulate, he needn't have taken up arms against them. Oath not broken. Unless you think that Jaime swore to keep the Tully in their ancestral seat.

On 10/15/2019 at 11:41 AM, frenin said:

He took arms against them, the moment he led the siege,  how is not take an army into his ancestral seat, taking arns against them?? That's a loophole not even Jaime cares to think about.

 

 

On 10/17/2019 at 11:19 AM, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Fascinating. Who knew? Do you truly think that was what Jaime swore to Cersei? That he'd love her forever, in a platonic and brotherly manner? I don't. Or do you think that oaths should be about their exact words, regardless of context and intended meaning? I don't.

On 10/15/2019 at 1:12 PM, Arthur Peres said:

 I din't know, but it's pretty much contradictory your assestment isn't it, or do you think Cat was thinking in possible loophones when he made Jaime swear that oath??

We don't really know in what context was made that oath, for all we know it's an oath of eternal devotion?? Do you really think that oaths are a shield that protects us from our responsability?? Saying that Jaime swore an oath to Cersei therefore he had to keep banging her even with the white cloak up on his arms, is exactly the same Barri B and the rest of white cloacks sycophants did with Aerys. At the end, Jaime keeps keeping those oaths he finds convenient and keep ignoring the parts of those oaths he don't truly like or can't do.