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OberynBlackfyre

Jaime as the Golden Lion

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So we know that much of Jaime’s redemption arc is based on the acts that we either see in book or that we here very early in the story.  
 

However- other than Bran, we find out that Jaime hasn’t ever really been that bad of a guy. Cocky, an asshole? Sure. But not devious or evil as say the Cleganes. 
 

Does anyone else wish we had seen more of Jaime’s antics and especially at least one or two fights with him at his prime, BEFORE being held captive and then getting maimed? 
 

Also one question has always lingered with me   From conversations Tywin and introspection with Tyrion- we know that Tywin has always expected Jaime to be his heir. 
my question is how did Tywin think he was going to achieve this since Jaime was Kingsguard? And why didn’t he act upon it saaaay when Joffrey had become King? It seems strange for Tywin to get mad at Cersei for dismissing Barristan, when really she opened the door for what Tywin wanted  

 

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1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

However- other than Bran, we find out that Jaime hasn’t ever really been that bad of a guy. Cocky, an asshole? Sure. But not devious or evil as say the Cleganes. 

The man was ready to kill Arya because Cersei wanted her dead. Jaime is beyond a simple asshole, just as a lot of characters.

 

1 hour ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Also one question has always lingered with me   From conversations Tywin and introspection with Tyrion- we know that Tywin has always expected Jaime to be his heir. 
my question is how did Tywin think he was going to achieve this since Jaime was Kingsguard? And why didn’t he act upon it saaaay when Joffrey had become King? It seems strange for Tywin to get mad at Cersei for dismissing Barristan, when really she opened the door for what Tywin wanted  

Everyone assumed Jaime would succeed his father but i don't really that would've happened, before Cersei stepped in, no one seemed eager to change an institution as honorable as the KG, I don't really think Robert would've ever allowed it but if Joffrey were to succeed his father... and  Tywin is mad about the Barrí B fiasco because it was stupid, he would not have complained much if the dismissed was Trant or the likes.

 

 

And i don't think Jaime has a redemption arc, nor do i think he needs  one, fans are too obsessed with redemptions arcs.

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2 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

my question is how did Tywin think he was going to achieve this since Jaime was Kingsguard? And why didn’t he act upon it saaaay when Joffrey had become King? It seems strange for Tywin to get mad at Cersei for dismissing Barristan, when really she opened the door for what Tywin wanted 

Have Joffrey, or Tommen later, or the High Septon, alter the laws/rules and allow Jaime to stand down from the King’s Guard, or to bend the rules and permit Jaime to take a wife while remaining a member of the KG. He didn’t act upon it while Joffrey was King because Jaime was in captivity and away from KL throughout Joffrey’s reign... but he broached the subject with Jaime as soon as he returned to KL. 

Tywin got mad at Cersei for dismissing Barristan because he didn’t need Barristan as an heir... Barristan would better serve the Lannister cause as an honourable and distinguished member of the KG serving a Lannister king.

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10 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

However- other than Bran, we find out that Jaime hasn’t ever really been that bad of a guy. Cocky, an asshole? Sure. But not devious or evil as say the Cleganes. 

Oh my.  Jaime was banging the wife of the king who was kind enough to offer him forgiveness as well as keep his job.  He was a bad apple at birth. 

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If Tywin wanted Jaime to be his heir, he really should have done everything in his power to get him back to the Rock (he clearly did not, especially if you take into account his power and influence). Otherwise, might as well have taken on one of Kevan's boys or Tyrek.

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3 hours ago, nyser1 said:

If Tywin wanted Jaime to be his heir, he really should have done everything in his power to get him back to the Rock (he clearly did not, especially if you take into account his power and influence). Otherwise, might as well have taken on one of Kevan's boys or Tyrek.

I think Tywin would have tried harder if Jaime would have accepted it. Jaime was against it as well & was not going to be willingly removed from the KG. If Tywin had got him to accept it, either by force or persuasion, it probably would have happened

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On 10/12/2019 at 10:29 AM, OberynBlackfyre said:

So we know that much of Jaime’s redemption arc is based on the acts that we either see in book or that we here very early in the story.  
 

However- other than Bran, we find out that Jaime hasn’t ever really been that bad of a guy. Cocky, an asshole? Sure. But not devious or evil as say the Cleganes. 

let's see

Let his brothers's wife be gang raped and lied about it, swear a oath to the KG with no intention whatsoever to keep it just to run away from a match his father made, pushed a 8 years old boy from a tower, tried to kill a 9 years old girl just because.

of course his is not evil... he does not even need redemption.

 

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I think the reason we know little of Jaime before he was captured was because as a character, there was little to know. He was raised in the shadow of Tywin, led around by Cersei, and overshadowed intellectually by Tyrion. When Jaime lost his hand, he lost everything he was. Which actually wasn't much, character-wise unless you consider being good at sword fights as being sufficient for being a strongly-written character. We're told clearly of the one time that Jaime wasn't just a hand and that was when he chose - on his own - to end Aerys. He was derided for it and went back to being just a hand until losing his hand forced him to begin to become something more. I think that time in Riverrun was probably the first time in Jaime's life where he was alone with his own thoughts for any real period of time and the symbolism of Jaime rising from the depths of Riverrun is that of a rebirth, a breaking from his family that only allowed him to be a hand.

ASOS Jaime IV

Craven, Jaime thought, as Brienne fought to stifle her moans. Can it be? They took my sword hand. Was that all I was, a sword hand? Gods be good, is it true?

 

Jaime says he keeps refusing Casterly Rock and is getting frustrated by Tywin refusing to listen. The Lannisters nearly lost Casterly Rock when Tytos was a Lord who didn't want to rule. Tywin needs Jaime to accept the responsibility on his own. Ordering him to take it won't be sufficient after Tywin dies of old age and can't cover for Jaime anymore.

ASOS Jaime VII

"—someone needs to close them again." Jaime stood. "I am tired of having highborn women kicking pails of shit at me, Father. No one ever asked me if I wanted to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but it seems I am. I have a duty—"

"You do." Lord Tywin rose as well. "A duty to House Lannister. You are the heir to Casterly Rock. That is where you should be. Tommen should accompany you, as your ward and squire. The Rock is where he'll learn to be a Lannister, and I want him away from his mother. I mean to find a new husband for Cersei. Oberyn Martell perhaps, once I convince Lord Tyrell that the match does not threaten Highgarden. And it is past time you were wed. The Tyrells are now insisting that Margaery be wed to Tommen, but if I were to offer you instead—"

"NO!" Jaime had heard all that he could stand. No, more than he could stand. He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. "No. No. No. No. No. How many times must I say no before you'll hear it? Oberyn Martell? The man's infamous, and not just for poisoning his sword. He has more bastards than Robert, and beds with boys as well. And if you think for one misbegotten moment that I would wed Joffrey's widow . . ."

"Lord Tyrell swears the girl's still maiden."

"She can die a maiden as far as I'm concerned. I don't want her, and I don't want your Rock!"

 

 

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18 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

let's see

Let his brothers's wife be gang raped and lied about it, swear a oath to the KG with no intention whatsoever to keep it just to run away from a match his father made, pushed a 8 years old boy from a tower, tried to kill a 9 years old girl just because.

of course his is not evil... he does not even need redemption.

 

do not dare try to pin what happened to tysha on jaime that was all tywin and dont give me but jaime lied to tyrion about tysha being a whore if tywin can force tyrion to participate he can force jaime to lie ( especially since we dont know the conversation that happened ) given that there is no evidence that jaime knew at the time what tywin would have done. and grrm himself brings up whether o not pushing bran was a sign of immorality  and asking what would you choose  the life of someone you hardly know or of your family who you love ned out right has that thought process of what he would do in that position. jaime never tried to kill arya ( and lets be honest people can question what they would have done in what if scenarios when in reality they wouldnt have done it  ( and jaime doesnt really think much of himself)  @Arthur Peres  @frenin

 

Quote

This is an occasional reminder that Tywin Lannister was the sort of father who could make one son lie to the other about his wife, and make the other son participate in a gang rape.

This is also an occasional reminder that when Jaime lied to Tyrion, he did not know Tywin was planning to have Tysha gang-raped and order Tyrion to participate. 

This is an occasional reminder that Jaime didn’t know about the rape and still feels guilty, years later, for lying to Tyrion about his marriage.

If Tyrion was a victim of his father’s depravities, then Jaime wasn’t an accomplice.

 

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22 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

do not dare try to pin what happened to tysha on jaime that was all tywin and dont give me but jaime lied to tyrion about tysha being a whore if tywin can force tyrion to participate he can force jaime to lie ( especially since we dont know the conversation that happened ) given that there is no evidence that jaime knew at the time what tywin would have done. and grrm himself brings up whether o not pushing bran was a sign of immorality  and asking what would you choose  the life of someone you hardly know or of your family who you love ned out right has that thought process of what he would do in that position. jaime never tried to kill arya ( and lets be honest people can question what they would have done in what if scenarios when in reality they wouldnt have done it  ( and jaime doesnt really think much of himself)  @Arthur Peres  @frenin

 

 

I agree 100%. And to be clear I'm not saying (nor do I think you are saying) that pushing an 8 year old to his presumed death is an ok thing to do but I think if most of us were FORCED to choose between some random 8 year old & our own 8 year old we would choose our own. 

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21 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

do not dare try to pin what happened to tysha on jaime that was all tywin and dont give me but jaime lied to tyrion about tysha being a whore if tywin can force tyrion to participate he can force jaime to lie

Tyrion was not forced to participate, he himself recognize it, he did it because he wanted to, he thought Tysha was a cheap whore an treated her as such, Jaime was the only son that has refusehis father somethong, so i very much can say, he could.

 

23 minutes ago, silverwolf22 said:

jaime never tried to kill arya ( and lets be honest people can question what they would have done in what if scenarios when in reality they wouldnt have done it  ( and jaime doesnt really think much of himself) 

Then, you're ignoring Jaime's own recollection of the event and what would've he done had he found Arya first.

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4 hours ago, silverwolf22 said:

do not dare try to pin what happened to tysha on jaime that was all tywin and dont give me but jaime lied to tyrion about tysha being a whore if tywin can force tyrion to participate he can force jaime to lie ( especially since we dont know the conversation that happened ) given that there is no evidence that jaime knew at the time what tywin would have done. and grrm himself brings up whether o not pushing bran was a sign of immorality  and asking what would you choose  the life of someone you hardly know or of your family who you love ned out right has that thought process of what he would do in that position. jaime never tried to kill arya ( and lets be honest people can question what they would have done in what if scenarios when in reality they wouldnt have done it  ( and jaime doesnt really think much of himself)  @Arthur Peres  @frenin

 

About the Tysha incident Jaime himself feels guilty about it and had to confess it to Tyrion.

His kids... let's remember how he consindered them

  • first Joffrey: 

A squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt, and he deserved to die.

Jaime sat silent through it all, letting the words wash over him, a horn of ale forgotten in his one good hand.Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son . He tried to bring the boy’s face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei’s

He was curiously calm. Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots, to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. So why was it that he felt so little?

And now he’s dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose.

  • Now Tommen:

“He is your son . . . ”

“He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.”

I could not find anything about Myrcella, but given the previous results I truly don't know if this is good or bad.

About Arya, lets ask Jaime himself.

“As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. “It was only by chance that Stark’s own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first …”

And about Bran, even Cersei blamed him and seemed to be the best human being in that situation.

I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . . ”

“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.

All this sounds like a really decent guy.

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31 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

His kids... let's remember how he consindered them

  • Now Tommen:

“He is your son . . . ”

“He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.”

A bit selective, here, I think. It's worth considering that he's scolding Cersei here, relatively shortly after his last meeting with Tyrion. When he thinks of Tommen later, it's rather different:

My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer.

I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like a man who wants to be a father to his children, and regrets not being able to. Also, why would a man who doesn't care about his children need to be warned "a thousand times" not to show undue interest?

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11 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

A bit selective, here, I think. It's worth considering that he's scolding Cersei here, relatively shortly after his last meeting with Tyrion. When he thinks of Tommen later, it's rather different:

 My place is with my king. With my son. Would Tommen want to know that? The truth could cost the boy his throne. Would you sooner have a father or a chair, lad? Jaime wished he knew the answer.

 I don't know about you, but to me that sounds like a man who wants to be a father to his children, and regrets not being able to. Also, why would a man who doesn't care about his children need to be warned "a thousand times" not to show undue interest?

This is part of the "redemption arc" that some people (not my case) think Jaime is going under.

The way I see Jaime still went away from the capital to fight in the riverlans, instead of staying by Tommen's side, and let Cersei that even he started to see as toxic and dangerous now to control his king. He is running from responsability again like he always did as Tyrion pointed out. 

My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule

Edited by Arthur Peres

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6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

This is part of the "redemption arc" that some people (not my case) think Jaime is going under.

The way I see Jaime still went away from the capital to fight in the riverlans, instead of staying by Tommen's side, and let Cersei that even he started to see as toxic and dangerous now to control his king. He is running from responsability again like he always did as Tyrion pointed out. 

My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule

Tommen is his King, first and foremost, and Jaime has a duty to serve him. Whether by his side, or in the Riverlands. I hardly think that's running away from responsibility.

As to Tyrion, he only knew Jaime when he had two hands. Whether or not you believe Jaime is undergoing redemption, I think it undeniable that he is changing, so Tyrion's thoughts about Jaime aren't necessarily going to be accurate.

In my eye, Jaime is changing into someone who puts his duties first. He keeps his oath to Catelyn as best he can, he chooses to remain Lord Commander (as per his oaths) rather than leave to become heir to Casterly Rock, etc. Whether this amounts to a "redemption arc" or if indeed it makes him a better person is debatable. Personally, I think he's simply trying to be someone that he can be proud of, which I find to be admirable.

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35 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

In my eye, Jaime is changing into someone who puts his duties first. He keeps his oath to Catelyn as best he can, he chooses to remain Lord Commander (as per his oaths) rather than leave to become heir to Casterly Rock, etc. Whether this amounts to a "redemption arc" or if indeed it makes him a better person is debatable. Personally, I think he's simply trying to be someone that he can be proud of, which I find to be admirable.

As best as he can imply threatening Cat's own kin and take an army to his girlhood home?? He refused being  heir  to Casterly Rock when he thought Cersei still worth the shot, after he discovers that Cersei banged till Moon boy forall he cares, he's feeling a lot ofbitternes because he left all for Cersei and she didn't care, had Tywin been there to offer Casterly Rock again and he would not hesitate.

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:

As best as he can imply threatening Cat's own kin and take an army to his girlhood home??

Yes? Without breaking other oaths, this is the best he could do. Conflicting oaths are at the core of Jaime. He's going from "oaths conflict, so why bother" to "oaths conflict, but I'll do the best I can".

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

had Tywin been there to offer Casterly Rock again and he would not hesitate.

Would he indeed? I doubt that. If only because that would be Cersei's first option. But mostly because I fully believe that Jaime intends to serve as Lord Commander, as best he can, for life, as his oaths dictate.

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2 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Yes? Without breaking other oaths, this is the best he could do. Conflicting oaths are at the core of Jaime. He's going from "oaths conflict, so why bother" to "oaths conflict, but I'll do the best I can".

Jaime is there a long time saying that one should mean the threats made etc, then goes  a long deal  threatening Edmure and  his unborn child  alongside the entire Riverrun and  before that he wanted to settle  things with the Blackfish with a sword, i mean, that's not even close to have conflicting oaths, he's ignoring the oath he swore  when it's convenient for him to do that and  embrace it when again it's convenient. Like he has always done with every oath he swore, he wants to be a true Kingsguard but he still see no problem about keep banging his sister and  the only thing that droves him away is the fact she is becoming a hilarious mix of Robert and  Aerys and  later the fact he was horned.

 

 

10 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Would he indeed? I doubt that. If only because that would be Cersei's first option. But mostly because I fully believe that Jaime intends to serve as Lord Commander, as best he can, for life, as his oaths dictate.

He would, Jaime was playing with the rebel  idea of becoming a nice person but all he cared  was Cersei, he wouldn't waste his life there if he knew Cersei was horning him.

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1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

As to Tyrion, he only knew Jaime when he had two hands. Whether or not you believe Jaime is undergoing redemption, I think it undeniable that he is changing, so Tyrion's thoughts about Jaime aren't necessarily going to be accurate.

 

Tyrion knows Jaime better than Jaime himself. Before be sent to the Riverlands Jaime was offered the position of Hand, where he could protect Tommen much more efficient, he turned that down but took the first chance to go to the Riverlands, just like Tyrion said. 

“It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father’s place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you …” He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face.

“A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don’t ask me to rule.”

 

1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

 In my eye, Jaime is changing into someone who puts his duties first. He keeps his oath to Catelyn as best he can, he chooses to remain Lord Commander (as per his oaths) rather than leave to become heir to Casterly Rock, etc. Whether this amounts to a "redemption arc" or if indeed it makes him a better person is debatable. Personally, I think he's simply trying to be someone that he can be proud of, which I find to be admirable.

Sure he is changing, but the core of his character still the same, he still a selfcentered, narcisitic, prick, that has Cersei as his main concern, but now he is angry instead of in love with her.

He is not keeping his promise to Catelyn, he is pushing her family out of their castle, while he threatned to catapult her nephew to the walls, and he leaved taking her brother as hostage, he send a single knight, that already was sworn to Catelyn , to look for a girl she doesn't know and call it quits. 

He never wanted to be the heir to CR, he never wanted to rule as Tyrion pointed out. He is changing but he is still him.

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