Jump to content
James Steller

Shouldn’t Robb have been betrothed at least?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

More than anything, I think Ned wasn't going to deal with it until his hand was forced because of what happened to him and his sibs.

Maybe there is something specific to consider with Ned. He married a woman he didn't choose. While he was, I believe expecting, to marry Ashara Dayne. Until Brandon died and he had to marry Cat to keep Hoster Tully in the rebellion. Their love affair is speculation. But if true, maybe Ned wanted to give his children the choice he didn't have.

ETA: And that Lyanna didn't have.

Edited by BalerionTheCat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

More than anything, I think Ned wasn't going to deal with it until his hand was forced because of what happened to him and his sibs.

Narratively, GRRM has avoided hard and fast rules and protocols in his world-building to allow for more dynamic and personal character choices. Watching a character grapple with a hard choice on their own is interesting. Watching a character try to hash out what the rules are of his/her society so that they can be followed properly is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

But there are a few things to keep in mind. We've seen it happen a lot of times that sometimes sketchy situations arise which can be resolved with a marriage. There's a possible major advantage in keeping your kids free in these cases. Particularly your heir.

Also, Jon being Rhaegar's kid makes the marriages of the other Stark kids very tricky, especially if he didn't go into the NW and his secret gets out. The books state that Ned is surprised that Jon wanted to go into the NW, so he wasn't considering this. Since Jon was raised at WF with the other Starks as his sibs therefore ensuring a very close relationship with Rhaegar's son, this makes any Stark/Southerner match look like a move on the IT to the still-paranoid Robert, even it wasn't intended that way at all.

This last paragraph is exactly why I completely understand Catelyn's fear and distrust towards Jon.

Even if Jon is a illegitimate child of rape and not a legitimate child of a loving marriage, he is a ticking time bomb in Winterfell.

Robert would want him dead for many reasons, a few of them legitimate. But Jon being both a close blood relative of Ned and his guest, Ned would refuse to give him up. Which - considering the way Robert treated Daenerys - would trigger another civil war, this time with the Starks and the super-vulnerable Tullys on the defensive against the Baratheons, the Lannisters and the Greyjoys. And it'd be impossible to tell which side (if any) the Arryns or the Tyrells would fall on.

Scary

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/13/2019 at 3:02 PM, Angel Eyes said:

What I mean is "would any other noblewoman been able to put up with Robert?"

Have you met Margarey Tyrell?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Oberyn is not the heir to Dorne. He is a second son and so has much more freedom. Knowing the Martell brothers, there was probably had an agreement between them.

Edmure had multiple suitors. Hoster just found them unsuitable (the women of House Frey), unavailable (Arianne Martell). Margaery Tyrell would've been a great match

Renly is gay. Plus, Robert is a fool so he likely gave no real thought as to the future of Storm's End. He probably thought that if Renly failed to produce an heir (male or female), he'd just pass it on to Tommen.

Tyrion is...well, a hard sell. It'd be hard to find Tyrion a wife that isn't a upjumped gold-digger.

There are much older men than Robb that didn't married either. Willas and Loras for once, Lancel, Black Walder.

When Ned was older than Robb he was not bethroted either, Rhaegar was only bethrothed when he was 20.

The only weird think about Robb situation is that Ned and Catelyn never even start to think about any girl for him. I can't even remember if Ned thinks of Robb even once on his POVs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

This last paragraph is exactly why I completely understand Catelyn's fear and distrust towards Jon.

Even if Jon is a illegitimate child of rape and not a legitimate child of a loving marriage, he is a ticking time bomb in Winterfell.

Robert would want him dead for many reasons, a few of them legitimate. But Jon being both a close blood relative of Ned and his guest, Ned would refuse to give him up. Which - considering the way Robert treated Daenerys - would trigger another civil war, this time with the Starks and the super-vulnerable Tullys on the defensive against the Baratheons, the Lannisters and the Greyjoys. And it'd be impossible to tell which side (if any) the Arryns or the Tyrells would fall on. 

Scary

 

She didn't know any of this. Her fear and hate is misplaced because she can't aim it at Ned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About Lyanna, Robert is the one who proposed the match, not her father. And taking into consideration the alliances Hoster Tully was trying to forge with House Redwyne and Lannister, I'm willing to wager that he is the one who proposed the match between Brandon and Catelyn. Lysa and Jaime, the Lysa and Jon Arryn. Edmure and Arianne. 

That said, and more to the point. Ned was the middle man for Lyanna's betrothal to Robert. He was the one who brought the proposal to his father. So perhaps he just wasn't interested in having his children being betrothed at a young age or them being used as a bargaining chip which is exactly what ends up happening. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Betrothing at a young age happens usually in desperate situations (financial crisis, civil war) in order for the ruling elite to consolidate its power, or out of political interest (e.g. gaining influence abroad). At the start of the books the North is an economically, politically stable part of the kingdom, its autonomy (religion, culture, laws) is respected by the crown and the neighbouring realms (well, except for the Ironborn, of course), and it doesn't have any territorial or other claims outside its borders. In such circumstances there's simply no reason to betroth the heir of the realm to a daughter of a lesser lord, who is an ally of the house, or even to a daughter of the house's own vassal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, szbszig said:

Betrothing at a young age happens usually in desperate situations (financial crisis, civil war) in order for the ruling elite to consolidate its power, or out of political interest (e.g. gaining influence abroad). At the start of the books the North is an economically, politically stable part of the kingdom, its autonomy (religion, culture, laws) is respected by the crown and the neighbouring realms (well, except for the Ironborn, of course), and it doesn't have any territorial or other claims outside its borders. In such circumstances there's simply no reason to betroth the heir of the realm to a daughter of a lesser lord, who is an ally of the house, or even to a daughter of the house's own vassal.

And so it was in 276 AC, when Brandon and Catelyn were betrothed, before Aerys went completely ax-crazy.

Edited by Angel Eyes
Fixed autocorrect error.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just want to chime in with this thought.  At the beginning of the books, everyone acknowledges that it's been a long summer already and the North being the North they know winter is coming and it's probably going to be long one.  Why attempt to make a betrothal when it's possible that Robb or his betroth might not survive what is going to be a winter that will at be at least be 3 years long but probably longer?

My assumption is that in Ned's mind after the coming winter, he and a 18 to 20-something year old Robb would have done a circuit around the North to check how everyone fared like a responsible Stark of Winterfell on the surface but subtly for Robb to see eligible noblewomen as well as to be seen as "the Heir" who needs to marry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they mainly betroth girls so young. Boys have more time. Also Robb has two brothers. But yeah in hindsight, maybe it would have been better, if he'd already produced an heir by 15. But why did Ned take Sansa and Arya with him, why did he tell Cersei about the incest?Let's just blame StarK- naivety :rolleyes: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/15/2019 at 11:00 AM, DarkLord said:

She didn't know any of this. Her fear and hate is misplaced because she can't aim it at Ned.

That's what I'm saying...

IF Catelyn did know any of that, she would've felt something along the lines of "Jon is too dangerous to have around for too long."

On 10/14/2019 at 5:56 PM, Arthur Peres said:

There are much older men than Robb that didn't married either. Willas and Loras for once, Lancel, Black Walder.

When Ned was older than Robb he was not bethroted either, Rhaegar was only bethrothed when he was 20.

The only weird think about Robb situation is that Ned and Catelyn never even start to think about any girl for him. I can't even remember if Ned thinks of Robb even once on his POVs.

He does. Not much but enough.

The biggest example of that is in Ned's last chapter when he realizes that Robb is likely being pressured to take action and fears that his son will be following in his footsteps -- at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/18/2019 at 12:16 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

I think they mainly betroth girls so young. Boys have more time. Also Robb has two brothers. But yeah in hindsight, maybe it would have been better, if he'd already produced an heir by 15. But why did Ned take Sansa and Arya with him, why did he tell Cersei about the incest?Let's just blame StarK- naivety :rolleyes: 

'cept that Brandon was betrothed at 14.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Maybe Ned would have betrothed Robb soon if he'd stayed in WF

He didn't talk about it with Catelyn. And would it have been Northern or Southern?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is nothing surprising about this. Sometimes people are betrothed at an early age, other times they are not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×