George Martin and scale

[Ran]

Just a note:

On 10/16/2019 at 10:02 AM, Aldarion said:

Targaryens escaped doom and landed on, by all accounts, poor and not that large island, yet they managed to maintain - and maybe expand - the army, feed three large dragons, and construct the castle. Each of those would be, by itself, a massive logistical burden. Where did the resources come from?

Dragonstone was an outpost of Valyria long before the Doom. The citadel was not constructed by Aenar Targaryen and his successors; it was already there when they arrived. The place was already inhabited and subject to the Valyrians, so this "expanded the army" thing I don't really get. It was not an empty rock.

In general, I rather question the notion that population directly equates to technological advancement.  There's a lot of factors for the development of plate armor that doesn't really associate with growth in population.  Plate armor was produced throughout Europe -- in Spain, England, the Netherlands, Scotland, etc. -- and the major factors for why southern Germany and northern Italy in particular became famous armor production centers had to do with access to very high quality iron ore, proximity to water for power and transport purposes, and so on. As Europe advanced its trade networks, yes, specialization took place -- textiles from the Low Lands, wool from England, armor from Germany, lace from France, etc. -- but we've no reason to suppose Westeros doesn't have similar patterns where certain areas produce more of certain manufactured goods than other areas (indeed, we know this is the case, as we're told Littlefinger buys wool from the North or linen from the south, and moves them around to have them dyed elsewhere before selling).

Assuming that our history is the only path technological advancement and development can follow is simply wrong. It's like flipping a coin once, seeing it's "tails", and saying that the coin will only ever give "tails". 

Do you need urbanization to create the infrastructure for specializations for more complicated manufacture development? Yes, of course. Do you really need a specific amount of urbanization? No.

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

Just a note:

Dragonstone was an outpost of Valyria long before the Doom. The citadel was not constructed by Aenar Targaryen and his successors; it was already there when they arrived. The place was already inhabited and subject to the Valyrians, so this "expanded the army" thing I don't really get. It was not an empty rock.

In general, I rather question the notion that population directly equates to technological advancement.  There's a lot of factors for the development of plate armor that doesn't really associate with growth in population.  Plate armor was produced throughout Europe -- in Spain, England, the Netherlands, Scotland, etc. -- and the major factors for why southern Germany and northern Italy in particular became famous armor production centers had to do with access to very high quality iron ore, proximity to water for power and transport purposes, and so on. As Europe advanced its trade networks, yes, specialization took place -- textiles from the Low Lands, wool from England, armor from Germany, lace from France, etc. -- but we've no reason to suppose Westeros doesn't have similar patterns where certain areas produce more of certain manufactured goods than other areas (indeed, we know this is the case, as we're told Littlefinger buys wool from the North or linen from the south, and moves them around to have them dyed elsewhere before selling).

Assuming that our history is the only path technological advancement and development can follow is simply wrong. It's like flipping a coin once, seeing it's "tails", and saying that the coin will only ever give "tails". 

Do you need urbanization to create the infrastructure for specializations for more complicated manufacture development? Yes, of course. Do you really need a specific amount of urbanization? No.

Actually, you do need a certain amount of urbanization (of course, there is always some leeway). It comes down to transportation and communication. Communication part is covered by ravens; but you still need to produce goods in cities, and transport those goods across the kingdoms. You need to ensure centres of learning so you have people enough to run administration (although it just occured to me that, since Maesters apparently monopolized learning in Westeros, there may be no centres of learning - which may very well significantly harm economy and urbanization of Westeros).

And regarding transportation... In Europe, that trading network you are noting was heavily helped by rivers. And reason why United States could be and remain united is because half the territory of United States is covered by Mississipi river basin. Compare to Europe. Westeros to me appears quite similar to Europe in that regard. And indeed its territories are roughly similar to river basins. Westerlands may be too large, but that could be excused assuming that rivers that flow from Westerlands are not navigable while in Westerlands. However, there are few rivers flowing between the kingdoms, which means that sea transportation is the only way of transporting goods from one kingdom to another. In other words, if what you are saying is true, we should be seeing massive river and sea based transportation. And Westerosi kingdoms are based on RL countries. So forget remaining united for any significant amount of time without dragons, they should not even be speaking same languages. Yes, there could, should and would be lingua franca, similar to how Latin was in the Roman Empire. But seeing difficulties in transportation between kingdoms, there would be little opportunity for it to dominate local languages; especially if Targaryens utilized feudal system of rule as opposed to rather more centralized Roman system. Although I do not really know the details of how latin came to dominate local languages.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

You need to ensure centres of learning so you have people enough to run administration (although it just occured to me that, since Maesters apparently monopolized learning in Westeros, there may be no centres of learning - which may very well significantly harm economy and urbanization of Westeros).

Right.
What we see is rather limited urbanisation on, say (pulling a number out of the air, based on 'feel'*), 12th century England levels - many middling sized towns rather than fewer big cities.
Similarly we appear to see, with a few exceptions, that the administration levels are quite low, more like 12-13th century levels than 15th-16th. 

Note how Littlefinger runs financial rings around people because administratively westeros is really quite backward.

*Feel - Robin Hood feels like he would fit perfectly the north, Crownlands, Riverlands or Stormlands. But not at all anywhere near Kings Landing or Oldtown.

2 hours ago, Aldarion said:

And regarding transportation... In Europe, that trading network you are noting was heavily helped by rivers. And reason why United States could be and remain united is because half the territory of United States is covered by Mississipi river basin. Compare to Europe. Westeros to me appears quite similar to Europe in that regard. And indeed its territories are roughly similar to river basins. Westerlands may be too large, but that could be excused assuming that rivers that flow from Westerlands are not navigable while in Westerlands. However, there are few rivers flowing between the kingdoms, which means that sea transportation is the only way of transporting goods from one kingdom to another. In other words, if what you are saying is true, we should be seeing massive river and sea based transportation. And Westerosi kingdoms are based on RL countries. So forget remaining united for any significant amount of time without dragons, they should not even be speaking same languages. Yes, there could, should and would be lingua franca, similar to how Latin was in the Roman Empire. But seeing difficulties in transportation between kingdoms, there would be little opportunity for it to dominate local languages; especially if Targaryens utilized feudal system of rule as opposed to rather more centralized Roman system. Although I do not really know the details of how latin came to dominate local languages.

I think there is significant more economic 'action' (outside the north at least) than we realise - economically I think Westeros is further ahead than administratively - but we simply don't see it in part because its not any part of GRRMs focus and in part because much of what we do see is territories ravaged by war where the economy has effectively disappeared temporarily.

I don't have an issue with their being only a very few large cities, but many small towns. It doesn't have to all work exactly as our world did.

[Aldarion]

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

What we see is rather limited urbanisation on, say (pulling a number out of the air, based on 'feel'*), 12th century England levels - many middling sized towns rather than fewer big cities.
Similarly we appear to see, with a few exceptions, that the administration levels are quite low, more like 12-13th century levels than 15th-16th. 

Note how Littlefinger runs financial rings around people because administratively westeros is really quite backward.

*Feel - Robin Hood feels like he would fit perfectly the north, Crownlands, Riverlands or Stormlands. But not at all anywhere near Kings Landing or Oldtown.

Yeah. That does appear to be the case.

5 minutes ago, corbon said:

I think there is significant more economic 'action' (outside the north at least) than we realise - economically I think Westeros is further ahead than administratively - but we simply don't see it in part because its not any part of GRRMs focus and in part because much of what we do see is territories ravaged by war where the economy has effectively disappeared temporarily.

 I don't have an issue with their being only a very few large cities, but many small towns. It doesn't have to all work exactly as our world did.

Problem is, we do not have any indication that people of Westeros are much different from people in our world. So where there are differences, there should be some reason for those.

[corbon]

1 minute ago, Aldarion said:

Problem is, we do not have any indication that people of Westeros are much different from people in our world. So where there are differences, there should be some reason for those.

First, why? Or rather, why, such that we can define?
Much of history is a series of accidents fitting together. There is no reason why everything must fit exactly the same in a different universe. Similar, probably but you seem to drive for close to identical. I don't understand why you think things must be evolve so similarly.
 

Second, I don;t think people are the same, everywhere, here, or there. Well, I do - "people are people" is a favourite phrase, second to "people are idiots (I'm a people too)", but there are cultural, societal and racial differences - at the level of large groups at least. For example, Asian cultures tend to be more collective and conformist, european cultures more individualist. Nordic culture more rule-following, southern european culture more rule-defying. That means that things evolved different in our own world in different regions.

I don't think we have the depth of westerosi culture nailed down enough to tell what effect it has - heck, Westerois culture varies wildly from region to region anyway! How does the Faith of the Seven impact the local cultures regarding individualism and entrepreneurial spirit?  How does it effect the drive to overthrow serfdom? or other economic, societal or cultural enslavements? There are so many more questions that need to be answered before we can say "we should be able to fully understand any differences between Westeros and our world".

[Aldarion]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

 First, why? Or rather, why, such that we can define?
Much of history is a series of accidents fitting together. There is no reason why everything must fit exactly the same in a different universe. Similar, probably but you seem to drive for close to identical. I don't understand why you think things must be evolve so similarly.
  

Second, I don;t think people are the same, everywhere, here, or there. Well, I do - "people are people" is a favourite phrase, second to "people are idiots (I'm a people too)", but there are cultural, societal and racial differences - at the level of large groups at least. For example, Asian cultures tend to be more collective and conformist, european cultures more individualist. Nordic culture more rule-following, southern european culture more rule-defying. That means that things evolved different in our own world in different regions.

I don't think we have the depth of westerosi culture nailed down enough to tell what effect it has - heck, Westerois culture varies wildly from region to region anyway! How does the Faith of the Seven impact the local cultures regarding individualism and entrepreneurial spirit?  How does it effect the drive to overthrow serfdom? or other economic, societal or cultural enslavements? There are so many more questions that need to be answered before we can say "we should be able to fully understand any differences between Westeros and our world".

Maybe, but a lot of seemingly independent aspects of society are in fact closely interdependent. Economic basis of society will affect its administration, and literacy and administration will affect economy. And with seven different cultures close together, Westeros should be constantly fighting civil wars. Even civil wars for the Iron Throne should have had expression of cultural differences: say, Crownlands, Stormlands declare predominantly for the Blacks, North and Riverlands for Greens and so on.

[corbon]

33 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Maybe, but a lot of seemingly independent aspects of society are in fact closely interdependent. Economic basis of society will affect its administration, and literacy and administration will affect economy.

Agreed. But the equation is complex and there are more factors than just these. Factors that we do not understand.

33 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

And with seven different cultures close together, Westeros should be constantly fighting civil wars. Even civil wars for the Iron Throne should have had expression of cultural differences: say, Crownlands, Stormlands declare predominantly for the Blacks, North and Riverlands for Greens and so on.

Well, before Aegon I, there were constant wars. Dragons tended to change the picture.

Entropic forces kept things together for a while after the dragons died, but ts apparent now that the 7 kingdoms are tearing apart again, though a strong leader may be able to hold them together a while longer.

I think self-interest was a stronger force, to some extent at least, in the civil wars.