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Gender relations in Westeros


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5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cersei was perfectly capable of abort as she did when she was pregnant with Robert's kid and  she does want to end Robert's line.

Jaime gave Cersei access to the moon tea that aborted Robert's child. She didn't do that herself.

And don't you think Jaime is to blame for the three bastards he put in Cersei's belly???

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

As a extension of herself, her first reaction when she heard  what happened to Myrce, the first thing she thinks is about she will no longer be pretty, to say she is not a great mother is a understatement, she abuses Tommen only to keep him from the Tyrells or power, even when Tommen has no power  on his on right she just want a yes mom.

I'm not sure what that means - who in the books views preteen children as persons in their own right? Nobody grown-up gives a damn what Rickon or Bran want, do they?

A mother first reacting to the fact that her disfigured daughter is no longer pretty doesn't even seem so unusual in our world, much less in Westeros.

Cersei fears the Tyrells are out there to kill her and her family - and she is actually right. The idea that the people who happened to have murdered Joffrey could be trusted taking care of Tommen in a positive way is not very likely.

Cersei is also not wrong that Tommen is not kingly material. She should groom him to rule some more, but his great-grandfather actually was Lord Tytos - Gerold the Golden also tried to groom him for ruling after his older brothers died - and look how well that worked.

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58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime gave Cersei access to the moon tea that aborted Robert's child. She didn't do that herself.

 

Cersei wanted that moon tea, she didn't want to have Robert's kid.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 And don't you think Jaime is to blame for the three bastards he put in Cersei's belly???

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Ofc he is but not in the same degree that someone who actually wanted to have Jaime's kids and had the means to actually not getting pregnant had she cared.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure what that means - who in the books views preteen children as persons in their own right? Nobody grown-up gives a damn what Rickon or Bran want, do they?

 

Actually people do care about what Bran, Prince of Winterfell wants, Rickon is practically a toddler, Robb and Bran and Luwin and Osha are all concerned about them by especially Robb, a teen himself, just don't know how to get to Rickon.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 A mother first reacting to the fact that her disfigured daughter is no longer pretty doesn't even seem so unusual in our world, much less in Westeros.

 

Isn't it?? That is for mostly, vain and self centered mothers, that is a tought you may have later, but not your first thought, both here and in Westeros.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Cersei fears the Tyrells are out there to kill her and her family - and she is actually right. The idea that the people who happened to have murdered Joffrey could be trusted taking care of Tommen in a positive way is not very likely.

 

Is she?? The Tyrells killed Joffrey because he was a little monster, they don't have any issye with baby Tommen and she just fears the influence Margaerys have over Tommen, not only his security.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Cersei is also not wrong that Tommen is not kingly material. She should groom him to rule some more, but his great-grandfather actually was Lord Tytos - Gerold the Golden also tried to groom him for ruling after his older brothers died - and look how well that worked.

Why is that?? Because he's a good kid, gentle and amiable?? He's going to be weak because his ancestor is Tytos, what kind of determinism is that??

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Trump is about to be impeached and removed from office, then prosecuted for tax fraud and money laundering, and you think he’s better than Hillary? You need to quit drinking the kool-aid and read a newspaper. 

Not sure what a kool-aid is. 
Newspaper are too old fashioned, I instead read news in the web or my phone.

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27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Cersei wanted that moon tea, she didn't want to have Robert's kid.

We don't actually know that. Cersei tells us that Jaime got her the moon tea. Did he get it for her because she asked him to fetch it or because he wanted her to take it? We don't know.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc he is but not in the same degree that someone who actually wanted to have Jaime's kids and had the means to actually not getting pregnant had she cared.

LOL, no. As a man you are responsible where you shoot your load. You do not tell me you that the woman is to blame because she doesn't get an abortion ... three times, in that scenario.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Actually people do care about what Bran, Prince of Winterfell wants, Rickon is practically a toddler, Robb and Bran and Luwin and Osha are all concerned about them by especially Robb, a teen himself, just don't know how to get to Rickon.

All of Bran's attempts to influence policy while he is 'Prince of Winterfell' are ignored. The direwolves are put into the godswood, he has to spent time with the Freys he doesn't like, his input on the Hornwood succession (legitimizing the bastard) is ignored, his attempt to convince the people in charge about Jojen's dream is ignored as well, etc.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Isn't it?? That is for mostly, vain and self centered mothers, that is a tought you may have later, but not your first thought, both here and in Westeros.

Well, last time I looked it is not a great thing to be a disfigured girl both in our world and in Westeros. Cersei is sad for Myrcella, not because she cannot stand having a disfigured daughter.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is she?? The Tyrells killed Joffrey because he was a little monster, they don't have any issye with baby Tommen and she just fears the influence Margaerys have over Tommen, not only his security.

LOL, I guess in your mind it is okay to marry your son to a woman who helped to murder your other son? The very idea that you could trust such people to keep your child safe is insane. What do you think would have happened after a, say, 11-12-year-old Tommen had finally impregnated Margaery ... do you think the Tyrells would have needed Tommen after Margaery had produced and an heir and a (couple of) spare(s)? I don't think so.

After all, if it ever came out that the Tyrells had a hand in Joff's murder his brother Tommen would have to avenge him.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why is that?? Because he's a good kid, gentle and amiable?? He's going to be weak because his ancestor is Tytos, what kind of determinism is that??

Tommen would suck as a king. He allows himself to be pushed around too easily. Cersei sees that ... her methods to deal with that problem are all flawed but her assessment of the situation is not wrong. And it is certainly a problem that she does not make any attempt to work with her son and prepare him for the role fate has forced him to take. But she is not alone in this ... Tommen is about as much or even worse of a pupped under the Lord Regent Kevan Lannister.

If you delude yourself into believing Tommen standing up to his mother is his idea you are fooled by the Tyrells, too. Margaery and Loras try to forge Tommen into a weapon against his mother.

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Not sure what a kool-aid is. 
Newspaper are too old fashioned, I instead read news in the web or my phone.

Trump is definitely worse than Hillary Clinton ... but the choice between these two isn't that far away from the hilarious Clinton-Dole caricature the Simpsons gave us decades ago.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't actually know that. Cersei tells us that Jaime got her the moon tea. Did he get it for her because she asked him to fetch it or because he wanted her to take it? We don't know.

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Cersei says she doesn't  want to have Robert's kids, in fact she does everything in her power to not have them, pre maimed Jaime is Cersei's tool, if she didn't want to take it, Jaime wouldn't have forced her to do it and we know Cersei has zero regrets about it and just wants to end Robert's line, if cuacks like a duck and looks like a duck...

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. As a man you are responsible where you shoot your load. You do not tell me you that the woman is to blame because she doesn't get an abortion ... three times, in that scenario.

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I didn't say, Jaime is not resposible for that, I said that Cersei wants to have Jaime's children, is not that she could get an abortion but that we've seen her abort with zero regrets and she indeed wants to cuckold Robert.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

All of Bran's attempts to influence policy while he is 'Prince of Winterfell' are ignored. The direwolves are put into the godswood, he has to spent time with the Freys he doesn't like, his input on the Hornwood succession (legitimizing the bastard) is ignored, his attempt to convince the people in charge about Jojen's dream is ignored as well, etc.

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Tbf i'll have to reread that because i don't remember it well, so i'll give you that.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, last time I looked it is not a great thing to be a disfigured girl both in our world and in Westeros. Cersei is sad for Myrcella, not because she cannot stand having a disfigured daughter.

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It's not good being desfigured but the first main corcern should be not the future looks.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, I guess in your mind it is okay to marry your son to a woman who helped to murder your other son? The very idea that you could trust such people to keep your child safe is insane. What do you think would have happened after a, say, 11-12-year-old Tommen had finally impregnated Margaery ... do you think the Tyrells would have needed Tommen after Margaery had produced and an heir and a (couple of) spare(s)? I don't think so.

After all, if it ever came out that the Tyrells had a hand in Joff's murder his brother Tommen would have to avenge him.

Cersei don't know the Tyrells are behind Joffrey's murder, so it makes zero sense using that as a excuse of her behaviour, the Tyrells aren't going to kill Tommen just for funsies, why would they??The only reason  they kill Joffrey was because Joffrey was a little monster.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tommen would suck as a king. He allows himself to be pushed around too easily. Cersei sees that ... her methods to deal with that problem are all flawed but her assessment of the situation is not wrong. And it is certainly a problem that she does not make any attempt to work with her son and prepare him for the role fate has forced him to take. But she is not alone in this ... Tommen is about as much or even worse of a pupped under the Lord Regent Kevan Lannister.

 

Tommen is 8 years old, yes the idea of Tywin standing to his father is cool and all that but not every good ruler is like that and kids tend to change, Tommen may not be as resolutive as Myrce but the idea that he would be a bad king because he's just a good kid that no one even has told him his duty is just ludicrous.

And to say that her methods are flawed are an understatemnt again.

 

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 If you delude yourself into believing Tommen standing up to his mother is his idea you are fooled by the Tyrells, too. Margaery and Loras try to forge Tommen into a weapon against his mother.

7 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

It's not his idea, Tommen himeslf says that Margaery told me...

I don't think Loras is doing nothing of the sort either. In fact the curious thing is that Maergaery and Loras were the only ones who were actually training Tommen for kingship.

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Oh, that's definitely just her personality. I doubt the vast majority of peasant marriages have the power dynamic weighted so. That's an extreme example. I meant that, due to the fact that common men have no actual power, just as common women, that power dynamics between common couples would be mostly equal (or, at least, with a power difference far smaller than those we see among the nobility)

Is this really true? When Sigorn married Alys Karstark, Rhaegar Frey made a comment that "Marriage will soften her. A firm hand and a quiet word". Sigorn is a free folk and Alys heir to House Karstark, but Rhaegar thinks he can still control her. Humfrey Wagstaff was also a knight and castellan, lower in rank than Brienne, heir to House Tarth, but he expected her to obey him.

The Faith also is pretty misogynistic, and affords certain liberties to husbands, and I think commoners would follow the teachings of the Faith as well. 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jaime's thoughts have made it clear that he loves Cersei, but I don't think Cersei feels quite the same way. She'd rather bear his children, that much is true, but their incestuous relationship was more about controlling Jaime (and indirectly her father) than it was about being in love with her brother. If she loved Jaime so much why did she desire to marry Rhaegar? Why did she sleep with Lancel? Or the Kettleblacks? Or Taena?

GRRM said in an interview that Cersei does love Jaime, I can't find it right now though.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is true, but it is also clear that Jaime does love Cersei. Whether he has a good understanding of consent is another matter. However, it seems clear from his POV that him always going to Cersei and initiating things is part of their game. I mean, you have to keep in mind that they are siblings who do have sex since they were, well, six or so. They know each other much better than the average couple.

Yeah, perhaps they're engaging in some form of rape play, like Qarl and Asha. Asha was fighting Qarl off while they were having sex and to an outsider it would really look like she's getting raped, but we're in her POV so we know that this is a game of theirs and she's into it, it's foreplay for them, and their sex is consensual.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And the thing works perfectly if we assume they hooked up after Mance's return from Winterfell early in AGoT - that would give them sufficient time to start a relationship and for Dalla to get pregnant shortly thereafter so she can give birth to their first child and die in ASoS. AGoT covers roughly a year of time, and ACoK and ASoS only months.

Qhorin thought it was for a woman but mostly for the "wild", and because Mance didn't like to take orders:

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They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes. "Why did he desert?"

"For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it." Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

 

While it is true that he saw Jon on both of his visits to Winterfell - once as a man of the Watch, and once while playing Bael - why mention Qhorin being made of oak in the same breath if he wasn't with him at the time? The subject matter was about breaking his oath. Mance had a weakness for the ladies, while Qhorin did not.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

No?? Cersei and  her firstborn  are not compared  with the mad King for nothing.

If Cersei had only done one or two things wrong, not stupid just morally wrong, I'd understand the comparation  but from the servants girl and  her babe she had killed and  slaved to Lollys, Cersei is not even remotely on the same league Stannis and Jaime. Cersei is another Maegor and  Aerys, the three  of them act for self preservation.

How about the deceit and cruelty of Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Ramsay Bolton? Tywin Lannister blocked the exits and drowned the Reynes and killed all the Tarbecks with seize engines because they refused to pay their debts. Tywin employed Gregor Clegane who also used methods of torture conducted mainly by the Tickler and Raff the Sweetling. Gregor cut limbs from Vargo Hoat over an extended period of time, and prior to that Vargo threw humans into a pit with a bear. You can blame Cersei for allowing the torture in the Black Cells, but she didn't tell Qyburn what to do. HE wanted to conduct necromancy experiments. 

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2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Not sure what a kool-aid is. 
Newspaper are too old fashioned, I instead read news in the web or my phone.

I call online news sources newspapers too, but I meant any source of news that is subject to stringent fact-checking and held liable for lies and slander.

You're likely too young to know the story of Jim Jones who was a charismatic religious zealot that convinced his followers to drink cyanide laced kool-aid and commit mass suicide in Guyana. "Drink the kool-aid" is now synonymous with anyone that blindly remains loyal to a person regardless of how awful that person truly is - for example, Trump supporters. 

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5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Qhorin thought it was for a woman but mostly for the "wild", and because Mance didn't like to take orders:

Sure, but I'm not sure how Qhorin's assessment contributes to the question at hand - when Mance actually met Dalla? He cannot have met her the first time he visited Winterfell. And Mance himself gives us his reason why he left the Watch - which also happens to fit, sort of, with Qhorin's assessment of the man - and both make it clear that neither a woman nor women in general were the reason for his defection.

Hence, also not Dalla. You really cannot twist the text around that way. In fact, it seems Mance only finally settled down with Dalla now that his hair is turning grey to have a family of sorts. He did have many women before he had her.

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

While it is true that he saw Jon on both of his visits to Winterfell - once as a man of the Watch, and once while playing Bael - why mention Qhorin being made of oak in the same breath if he wasn't with him at the time? The subject matter was about breaking his oath. Mance had a weakness for the ladies, while Qhorin did not.

Yes, that's a difference between them. And Mance brings up Qhorin because Jon was with Qhorin and killed Qhorin and Qhorin would have been his main source on Mance's past, character, and defection.

Again, it is literally impossible that Mance returned from Winterfell to the Wall during his first visit by ways of Dalla's place. Instead, it is quite clear that he found her on his way back from his second visit to Winterfell to his own place/camp early on in AGoT.

We also have no reason that Qhorin ever accompanied Lord Commander Qorgyle and Mance to Winterfell back in the day. In fact, chances are that this would have been before Mance was assigned to the Shadow Tower where he then served with Qhorin considering the Lord Commander would likely take a retinue of Castle Black rather than Shadow Tower men for a ride to Winterfell. And Mance himself does not mention the Halfhand here, nor does Jon remember having seen Qhorin before he meets him when, in fact, he recalls having interacted with Mance back during his first visit.

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How about the deceit and cruelty of Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Ramsay Bolton? Tywin Lannister blocked the exits and drowned the Reynes and killed all the Tarbecks with seize engines because they refused to pay their debts. Tywin employed Gregor Clegane who also used methods of torture conducted mainly by the Tickler and Raff the Sweetling. Gregor cut limbs from Vargo Hoat over an extended period of time, and prior to that Vargo threw humans into a pit with a bear. You can blame Cersei for allowing the torture in the Black Cells, but she didn't tell Qyburn what to do. HE wanted to conduct necromancy experiments. 

Yeah, Cersei is not even remotely in her father's territory. And she actually does not enjoy or attend violence. Her authorizing Qyburn's shit is ugly, but she is actually horrified by what he does and would never actually want to see or participate in it.

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46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Cersei is not even remotely in her father's territory. And she actually does not enjoy or attend violence. Her authorizing Qyburn's shit is ugly, but she is actually horrified by what he does and would never actually want to see or participate in it.

We at least find some agreement on one point! Huzzah! I don't condone Cersei's behavior, but I understand it, and I think it's probably what was necessary to retain power. Any sign of weakness and she would have lost control as soon as Robert died. I have the feeling that she only wanted Robert dead, because she viewed Ned Stark's appointment as Hand as a threat. She knew Robert and Ned were friends and Ned's reputation as "honorable" would be too much an influence, and she couldn't have that. 

She is judged more harshly, I believe, just because she's a woman.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You're likely too young to know the story of Jim Jones who was a charismatic religious zealot that convinced his followers to drink cyanide laced kool-aid and commit mass suicide in Guyana. "Drink the kool-aid" is now synonymous with anyone that blindly remains loyal to a person regardless of how awful that person truly is - for example, Trump supporters. 

Nah we just don’t have that beverage where I am from.
Just because things are famous in your country doesn’t mean it’s famous in the rest of the world. Especially something that happened in the previous century. 

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23 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Nah we just don’t have that beverage where I am from.
Just because things are famous in your country doesn’t mean it’s famous in the rest of the world. Especially something that happened in the previous century. 

It was 41 years ago and happened in Guyana - not the US. I was assuming you were following American news since you had an opinion on Pres. Trump and former Senator and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton?

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56 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It was 41 years ago and happened in Guyana - not the US. I was assuming you were following American news since you had an opinion on Pres. Trump and former Senator and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton?

Yeah but presidency elections and US politics are very important to the rest of the world, since it pretty much affects us all. 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

How about the deceit and cruelty of Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Ramsay Bolton? Tywin Lannister blocked the exits and drowned the Reynes and killed all the Tarbecks with seize engines because they refused to pay their debts. Tywin employed Gregor Clegane who also used methods of torture conducted mainly by the Tickler and Raff the Sweetling. Gregor cut limbs from Vargo Hoat over an extended period of time, and prior to that Vargo threw humans into a pit with a bear.

What is this a competition?? Yes, There are a whole to of people that are either on Cersei's league or above but if i can recognize Gregor or Walder or Tywin are disgusting, Cersei is disgusting too.

The woman has killed her bestie when she was still a kid, casually, abused her little brother, ordered the enslavement or murder of every of Robert's lovers and children and pleasem don't give the it was self protection, it was made cristal clear that Barra and her mom weren't a threat and she had them killed anyway because Robert,  randomly start killing dwarves around the world and allows Qyburn to torture and experiment with god knows how many people.  Why the hell should i care that Gregor is a monsterin this setting??

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You can blame Cersei for allowing the torture in the Black Cells, but she didn't tell Qyburn what to do. HE wanted to conduct necromancy experiments. 

And Cersei should execute or arrest Qyrburn right away but she does gives him more subjects. 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Cersei is not even remotely in her father's territory. And she actually does not enjoy or attend violence. Her authorizing Qyburn's shit is ugly, but she is actually horrified by what he does and would never actually want to see or participate in it.

I don't think Tywin would ever participate ina rape yet he isperfectly fine with ordering i,  how someone should see her  handing over Faylse??

 

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't condone Cersei's behavior, but I understand it, and I think it's probably what was necessary to retain power.

I don't know why abusing Sansa, killing literal infants or allowing torture in her dungeons is necessary for her to stay in power. That's just false.

 

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

She is judged more harshly, I believe, just because she's a woman.

False, there are a women h¡who are judged harshly just for that or for them being in the way of male protagonists, on top of my mind come the trio Dany, Sansa and Cat.

Cersei is judged harshly because she's a straight monster, saying otherwise is just wrong.

 

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honor, for love.

 

Is Tyrion lying here?? 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

She is judged more harshly, I believe, just because she's a woman.

Cersei is judged harshly because of her incompetence at playing the game (sort of) and mainly her personality. Everything she has done from sleeping with her brother to arming the faith, has been pretty stupid. 

She might also be judged harshly because people compare her to Tyrion (a favourite character to many) and Tywin. 

In my personal opinion I don’t really like Cersei. But at the same time I really like reading her POV chapters. She is a very interesting character to read and enjoy I  reading what goes through her head. But she definitely is a monster. 

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On 10/25/2019 at 9:06 PM, R2D said:

GRRM said in an interview that Cersei does love Jaime, I can't find it right now though.

He really doesn't have to say that. Her POV constantly gives away that 'little secret'...

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Yeah, perhaps they're engaging in some form of rape play, like Qarl and Asha. Asha was fighting Qarl off while they were having sex and to an outsider it would really look like she's getting raped, but we're in her POV so we know that this is a game of theirs and she's into it, it's foreplay for them, and their sex is consensual.

I'd not say that it is this - more like that their modus operandi in their forbidden relationship always was that Jaime had to make explicit sexual advances for them to have sex. Just like it seems that it was Cersei who always searched out Jaime to give him the opportunity to do so. I mean, they were going up the tower ruin at Winterfell to (also) have sex, one assumes. Cersei is annoyed during the scene Bran overhears because Jaime does not take her and her fears seriously.

In fact, if you look at how irresponsible and uncaring Jaime is, it is quite clear that Cersei is taking charge of him and their relationship to protect him from himself. If Jaime were allowed to follow his every whim he would have long ago ruined House Lannister and gotten himself killed.

This doesn't mean Cersei is the smartest person around but she is smarter than Jaime.

On 10/25/2019 at 10:51 PM, Feather Crystal said:

We at least find some agreement on one point! Huzzah! I don't condone Cersei's behavior, but I understand it, and I think it's probably what was necessary to retain power. Any sign of weakness and she would have lost control as soon as Robert died. I have the feeling that she only wanted Robert dead, because she viewed Ned Stark's appointment as Hand as a threat. She knew Robert and Ned were friends and Ned's reputation as "honorable" would be too much an influence, and she couldn't have that. 

She is judged more harshly, I believe, just because she's a woman.

Oh, well, it is not that easy. Ned's appointment as Hand forced her to move more quickly, but she always wanted to put Robert in his grave, considering she feared she was about to lose control of him and be replaced with a 'new Lyanna' (which Renly was actually trying to bring about). She also says she would have preferred to deal with Stannis and Renly before she would deal with Robert, but there is no question that she wanted him dead. Ned just caused her to move faster.

The way she dealt with Ned was actually pretty smart, as was how she kept control after Robert's death. She made some minor mistakes with Selmy but Ned's execution isn't on her. And while she did not come up with the chain plan, she had the pyromancers make more wildfire. Tyrion tweaked the plan to make it more effective, but Cersei laid the groundwork for that.

That she fails in AFfC is due to the constant stress and the growing paranoia - based on very real threats as well as an ugly prophecy she now starts to believe not to mention the losses of very crucial family members - causes her to make the wrong calls. But even then she is not all that uneffective. She does ruin Margaery (even if she were acquitted, some dirt will stick) and she helped Loras to get himself burned. It is clear that she should have focused on other things, but these people - while not her worst enemies - are still not her friends.

And she still isn't done. She is no longer running the government but the Lady of Casterly Rock is a powerful force in her own right. If she gets back West in one piece she can become a very dangerous enemy to all of Westeros.

On 10/26/2019 at 3:32 AM, The Young Maester said:

But she definitely is a monster. 

That is pretty harsh. She is not described as such, and she rarely, if at all, does any monstrous acts. There are real monsters in those books, and Cersei is not one of them. Just think how Roose's, Ramsay's, Qyburn's, Euron's, or Gregor's POV would read like - or how Victarion's POV actually is (that guy really is a monster). Cersei has done some evil things, but she still feels empathy and she still loves people in a recognizable human way - something I think is clear the people I listed above are not capable of.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The way she dealt with Ned was actually pretty smart, as was how she kept control after Robert's death. She made some minor mistakes with Selmy but Ned's execution isn't on her. And while she did not come up with the chain plan, she had the pyromancers make more wildfire. Tyrion tweaked the plan to make it more effective, but Cersei laid the groundwork for that.

Was it?? The only thing she had to do was get the GC and  even then LF just handed them over later is Varys the one who actually makes Ned agree the terms .

And Aerys and  Cersei are interchangeable about the wildfire.

 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is pretty harsh. She is not described as such, and she rarely, if at all, does any monstrous acts. There are real monsters in those books, and Cersei is not one of them. Just think how Roose's, Ramsay's, Qyburn's, Euron's, or Gregor's POV would read like - or how Victarion's POV actually is (that guy really is a monster). Cersei has done some evil things, but she still feels empathy and she still laughs people in a recognizable human way - something I think is clear the people I listed above are not capable of.

Would you say that killing toddlers for the sake  of it and  allowing necromancy are not monstrous  acts?? 

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16 hours ago, frenin said:

Was it?? The only thing she had to do was get the GC and  even then LF just handed them over later is Varys the one who actually makes Ned agree the terms .

Those pawns all acted on her commands, didn't they? She had Ned's men butchered, she had him arrested, etc. despite the facts that Ned had plans of his own.

16 hours ago, frenin said:

And Aerys and  Cersei are interchangeable about the wildfire.

LOL, no. Cersei never burned a person up to that point while Aerys II never used wildfire to burn structures of his own castle (which would have been stupid, by the way). For Cersei, the burning of the Tower of the Hand is an empowering moment because it (apparently) frees her from a symbol of male domination. She does that to free her of the memory of her father, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, etc.

Just because Jaime has stupid memories of Aerys II when he sees somebody commanding to burn something with wildfire doesn't mean his view of the person and the situation is objectively correct. This is the author giving us the interpretation of a scene from a specific POV using the specific experiences that POV had in the past.

16 hours ago, frenin said:

Would you say that killing toddlers for the sake  of it and  allowing necromancy are not monstrous  acts?? 

The only guy claiming Cersei ever murdered those twins at Casterly Rock is Littlefinger - that has never been independently confirmed and can, at this point, only be seen as a rumor. She certainly later authorized the murder of Barra and wanted to kill Gendry, but that's actually not 'for the sake of it' but was done due to the political situation she found herself in. It was still a cruel and heinous act, but nothing she did because she felt like it.

Cersei never allows or condones necromancy - she might not even know or understand what that is. She merely allows Qyburn to take over Gregor's care and she allows him to deal with people she wanted to be gone, anyway. That is an important difference. It is still evil of her to want to kill/punish Senelle and Falyse, of course, but not as bad as you want to paint it here.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those pawns all acted on her commands, didn't they? She had Ned's men butchered, she had him arrested, etc. despite the facts that Ned had plans of his own.

Quote

No, those pawns feigned to act on her behalf, i wouldn't be even surprised if said idea was planted in her by both LF or Varys and she defeated Ned because LF wanted it and because Sansa told her about Ned's plans and even that without LF handing over te Golden Cloacks would've been for naught.  Cersei got incredibly lucky and she almost fails anyway.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. Cersei never burned a person up to that point while Aerys II never used wildfire to burn structures of his own castle (which would have been stupid, by the way). For Cersei, the burning of the Tower of the Hand is an empowering moment because it (apparently) frees her from a symbol of male domination. She does that to free her of the memory of her father, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, etc.

Just because Jaime has stupid memories of Aerys II when he sees somebody commanding to burn something with wildfire doesn't mean his view of the person and the situation is objectively correct. This is the author giving us the interpretation of a scene from a specific POV using the specific experiences that POV had in the past.

I actually didn't mean that, Cersei's plans for the wildfire would've put the city at risk and well. 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The only guy claiming Cersei ever murdered those twins at Casterly Rock is Littlefinger - that has never been independently confirmed and can, at this point, only be seen as a rumor. She certainly later authorized the murder of Barra and wanted to kill Gendry, but that's actually not 'for the sake of it' but was done due to the political situation she found herself in. It was still a cruel and heinous act, but nothing she did because she felt like it.

 

Varys: There was another bastard, a boy, older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way ... but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A baseborn girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?
Tyrion: She was Robert's. That was enough for Cersei, it would seem

 

 

Her mother was a teen whore, she could be threatened or cut off and by the time, anyone notices the kid looked like Robert, the war would've been already been decided, Cersei killed them because she felt like it,

 

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 Cersei never allows or condones necromancy - she might not even know or understand what that is. She merely allows Qyburn to take over Gregor's care and she allows him to deal with people she wanted to be gone, anyway. That is an important difference. It is still evil of her to want to kill/punish Senelle and Falyse, of course, but not as bad as you want to paint it here.

Plausible deniability, she knew what he was doing wasn't pretty, she gives him the prisoners to do with them whatever he wanted and no, i don't see a difference it's still monstrous.

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31 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, those pawns feigned to act on her behalf, i wouldn't be even surprised if said idea was planted in her by both LF or Varys and she defeated Ned because LF wanted it and because Sansa told her about Ned's plans and even that without LF handing over te Golden Cloacks would've been for naught.  Cersei got incredibly lucky and she almost fails anyway.

That is a short-sighted view. Cersei did kill Robert and she prepared for the aftermath. Littlefinger and Varys certainly tried (and did, up to a point) play Cersei in this, but she is the one in charge. She butchered the Starks and set herself up as the Queen Regent and she made her father the new Hand. That was all her doing.

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

I actually didn't mean that, Cersei's plans for the wildfire would've put the city at risk and well. 

Nah, the pyromancers know what they are doing. They used exactly the right amount of wildfire and destributed it in the right way through the Tower of the Hand to ensure that only it would burn down - sort of like modern demolition experts destroy buildings without blowing up/burning down entire towns or cities.

Whatever risk there was that all the Red Keep would burn would be very minor, or else they wouldn't have done it. Cersei didn't want to burn herself or Tommen.

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

Varys: There was another bastard, a boy, older. I took steps to see him removed from harm's way ... but I confess, I never dreamed the babe would be at risk. A baseborn girl, less than a year old, with a whore for a mother, what threat could she pose?
Tyrion: She was Robert's. That was enough for Cersei, it would seem

Her mother was a teen whore, she could be threatened or cut off and by the time, anyone notices the kid looked like Robert, the war would've been already been decided, Cersei killed them because she felt like it,

Cersei kills those children of Robert she can get her hands on because she knows Stannis saw them and would parade them around as 'proof' that her children were not Robert's after he had taken the Iron Throne. Cersei had plans to get Tommen out of the city - Stannis taking the throne would not necessarily have decided the war, just as Rhaenyra taking the Iron Throne didn't end the Dance.

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

Plausible deniability, she knew what he was doing wasn't pretty, she gives him the prisoners to do with them whatever he wanted and no, i don't see a difference it's still monstrous.

Plausible deniability? What for? Cersei is not responsible to an electorate or a parliament or any other authority but her own.

It is quite clear that she abhorred by the hints Qyburn gives her about the fate of Senelle and Falyse. She does not enjoy this, and this makes her obviously different from the monsters who actually enjoy stuff like that.

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