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Gender relations in Westeros

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6 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

yeah in the Night's Watch there should be more rape and sexual violence going on among the men for it to be realistic. Especially if they are so willing to rape women so easily. And they are mostly criminals

It’s really not prison. It’s a military order. Maybe their might be homosexual tendencies but we just don’t know it. Plus it’s been said by the lord commander that if they executed every brother that went to moles town, they wouldn’t have enough men to man the walls. 
Just because to you it seems like a male prison doesn’t mean it’s gonna be exactly like our own timeline. In the Middle Ages you’d have dozens of knightly orders (men only) like the knights of Malta. But you rarely had rape cases around. 

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On 10/21/2019 at 6:38 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Great post. I'll answer to it more in detail, when I have more time. Just a few things that I've noticed. Violence and Rape imo should get way more minus points, if the husband does do it. But I don't know, if I even would give (plus) points, if he doesn't do it. Because imo that he is not violent and does not violently rape her (I guess that's what we consider rape here) is the very minimum/basis of peaceful cohabitation. Everything else is a plus. But if he is violent towards her (including rape) that makes her life living hell. Original 4. and 7. aren't the same to me. 4. Does he ask for her opinion and thinks about it? 7. Does he consider his wife -her well- being, not putting her in danger- in his decision making? (I think this is especially important for Lords and kings, because they sometimes put political gains over the safety and well-being of family members)

Ned and Cat: I wouldn't agree with new 7. because even though Ned probably never cheated, he told her he did and this is a great source of suffering for Cat. Ned could have spared Cat and Jon a lot of suffering, if he had just confided in Cat. And Ned also expects Cat to just accept it.

If I didn't add + points, even reasonably healthy couples (i.e as much as possible that can be healthy in an instrinsically flawed system) would end up getting a very low score! But you're right, it should get more points overall. I'll make it 5 instead of 3.

Ok, if you put it that way, I can see where the difference lies. If we're grading Ned and Cat, I'm sure Ned has no interest in political gain, and he has his family's wellbeing in mind first and foremost. Still, he was bringing his family into a dangerous zone when he didn't have to. He could have betrothed Sansa to Joffrey and let her go to KL only when she got older. He didn't have to bring Arya or Bran either. But since making her stay in Winterfell doesn't put his wife in danger, I'd say yes. +3

As for Robert, he has no interest in political schemes either, but he doesn't consider Cersei's wellbeing at all and would jump at the chance to get rid of her. So no -3

I'll bump Love/Respect up to a 3 too, cause that shit's important.

And asking the wife' opinion/caring about her as a person to 3 as well, so that the overall score is an odd number.

And since Catelyn feels like Ned cheated and Ned doesn't pretend otherwise, -2

On 10/21/2019 at 7:02 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

Robert and Cersei:

4. I wouldn't define "giving in to some of the things she wants sometimes" as valuing her opinion. Because she can never know, if he is going to through her a bone, beat her or just tell her to shut up. That means uttering your opinion/demands always includes being afraid of his reaction. Him being afraid of her and her family does not equal "valuing her opinion" and make it also more likely, that he might became aggressive. 

Ned and Cat:

10. deserves more minus points imo in general and especially in this case. We have to consider, what that means for Cat as a woman of her time. This is not the time of patchwork families, it's a huge insult and threat to her in this time period and she is just expected to take it and is not even allowed to ask questions. Ned becomes aggressive and reproves her, when she does. While if she had a child from another man, who know what would happen to her? Ned probably wouldn't execute her, but the punishment would be severe and their marriage would be over.

 4. Yeah you're right, -3 then.

10. Let's give this a score of -3 then  (since "taking advantage of his power" is very vague and hard to define, and plenty of things can fall under that, we'll give 3 for maximum offenses and 1 for minimum).

I think I'll change it to "does the wife come from a powerful family?" instead. As you said, Robert clearly fears the Lannisters, even though he's the king and there is no one more powerful. So +3 for Robert and Cersei. If Tywin wasn't so powerful and Robert so conflict averse I'm sure he would have sent Cersei to Casterly Rock  already or not let her get her way in matters dealing with the court so much.

Revised scores:

27/35 for Ned and Cat

6/35 for Cersei and Robert

Edited by S. D

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9 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

It’s really not prison. It’s a military order. Maybe their might be homosexual tendencies but we just don’t know it. Plus it’s been said by the lord commander that if they executed every brother that went to moles town, they wouldn’t have enough men to man the walls. 
Just because to you it seems like a male prison doesn’t mean it’s gonna be exactly like our own timeline. In the Middle Ages you’d have dozens of knightly orders (men only) like the knights of Malta. But you rarely had rape cases around. 

sure because they don't talk about it. There is to much shame involved. And it was actually not prison I was thinking about, but the specifically the military. If you do some research it is suspected that the rates of sexual violence in the military against men are very high. In general sexual assault and rape against men occurs way more often, than it appears. There is still so much shame surrounding this topic, that most men don't come forward. You can see it with the Kevin Spacey case. More than 50 men accused him of sexual harassment or assault, but only a handful of them ever chose to reveal their identity. Now compare that to Bill Cosby or Weinstein or Nassar case. Also look at how badly terry Crews was treated, when he came forward. I worked in an addiction clinic and a lot of the men there had been sexually abused at one point in their lives.

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10 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

sure because they don't talk about it. There is to much shame involved. And it was actually not prison I was thinking about, but the specifically the military. If you do some research it is suspected that the rates of sexual violence in the military against men are very high. In general sexual assault and rape against men occurs way more often, than it appears. There is still so much shame surrounding this topic, that most men don't come forward. You can see it with the Kevin Spacey case. More than 50 men accused him of sexual harassment or assault, but only a handful of them ever chose to reveal their identity. Now compare that to Bill Cosby or Weinstein or Nassar case. Also look at how badly terry Crews was treated, when he came forward. I worked in an addiction clinic and a lot of the men there had been sexually abused at one point in their lives.

Medieval society and our own western society are not the same thing. 
I have no doubt that lots of men been on the other end of sexual abuse. But just because some men don’t come forward doesn’t mean the numbers or statistics are close for both genders. Plus it’s a completely different age and era. You can’t really apply these things into a medieval fantasy. 
The way you say male rape should happen in nights watch makes it seem like you view it as a modern prison. 

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1 minute ago, The Young Maester said:

Medieval society and our own western society are not the same thing. 
I have no doubt that lots of men been on the other end of sexual abuse. But just because some men don’t come forward doesn’t mean the numbers or statistics are close for both genders. Plus it’s a completely different age and era. You can’t really apply these things into a medieval fantasy. 
The way you say male rape should happen in nights watch makes it seem like you view it as a modern prison. 

I just think it's odd that there aren't a few cases at least. And no, I was thinking about modern military. I just think, that a lot of them are criminals would make it even more likely.  And why exactly wouldn't that happen in a medieval fantasy? I think we checking those elements on their realism rn. 

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57 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I just think it's odd that there aren't a few cases at least. And no, I was thinking about modern military. I just think, that a lot of them are criminals would make it even more likely.  And why exactly wouldn't that happen in a medieval fantasy? I think we checking those elements on their realism rn. 

Yeah we will always question the realism of this fantasy. But we can’t compare it to our own modern world. We need to compare it to the realism of the Middle Ages. Tho of course us being from the modern world, we will always read the books from a modern world perspective (which is expected from the author). I have also had times where I questioned the realism of some of the aspects of asoiaf.

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@ The Young Maester 

The forum is being a fuck up and not letting me quote you, or copy your text, so....

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Well at least they didnt die. Happy?

No.

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You complained about the lack of Male rape in the books, but at least you have one.

I only brought up male rape to say that all the childbirth deaths cannot be justified by realism.

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Yes its realistic because it happened a lot in Middle Ages.

It's not realistic, because the number of deaths by childbirth weren't that high. (It was between 1% and 2.5%)

If it was realistic women would have a lot more power. More people would be dying from diseases. Women would be plucking all their hair up to their foreheads.

About Catelyn's mom:

What? Catelyn was never Lady of Riverrun. And why are you deciding her mom's personality for her? Maybe her mom would have fed Lysa tansy and made her have a forced abortion and would marry her off to Jon Arryn too. It could have been a good commentary on how women suffer under the patriarchy but also uphold it.

About Ned's mom:

She would have been a 60 year old lady. She's no impediment to Theon and Theon's betrayal could be even more highlighted by him killing an old lady.

About Brienne's mom:

Again you are deciding her mom's personality for her. Maybe she would have been as accommodating as Selwyn of Brienne's desires.

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Tywin is still the lord. The unnamed Princess is the strange one.

We could have heard more about how she influenced Tywin's policies, his ruling, etc. Agree about the Princess.

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Do you know of any POV characters that are familiar with Elia, Lyanna, Rhaella?

Yep - Daenerys, Jon Con, Barristan, Jaime.

And I meant these as women who's suffering  is used to motivate men, the other women are women who are not thought of by the author at all, as pointed out Ned's mother doesn't even have a grave in the crypt. It would be like Sansa or Arya not remembering their mothers at all, or never talking about Catelyn to their children.

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Did Jon con have a genuine relationship with ashara in order to think about her when he was busy thinking about putting rhaegars son on the Iron throne? Ashara is probably the character jon cares the least about. Why would he think about her. We know barristan loved ashara but that was all blind love.

I can actually forgive Ashara, as she's meant to be a mystery. But so what? Brienne loved Renly and that was blind love too and she's brought up more in her POV than Ashara in Barristan's. Hey, Renly is actually a man who was fridged for a woman's character development. That was progressive of GRRM.

Tysha is another example of a woman who is only defined by her relationships with men.

Edited by Peach King

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3 hours ago, iberiandirewolf said:

All these women are dead, and what we learn of them is through the memories of the people that knew them (completely or up to a certain degree). I don't see an imbalance between deceased women and men in ASoIaF, to me they are equal. Neither do I see where Rhaella or any other female is used as a prop for male character development, as you mention. In my eyes, these cases exhibit the same problematic as Kvothe POVs in the Kingkiller Chronicle: everything we see and learn is done through Kvothe's eyes, and, as everyone who has read that series knows, reality is terribly distorted. I don't see the slightest problem in gender relationships within GRRM's work, on the contrary, I consider it to be realistic and crude, and beautiful many times as well. 

I'm very intrigued by characters like Arthur, Robert and Rhaegar, and yet all the information we receive about them is different and crisscrossed: Arthur is pretty much a mystery, aside from Jaime's POVs in which he's an idealized hero (makes sense since he was his squire and boys tend to idolize and love the knights they serve); what we know about Robert varies between Ned and Cersei, whom offer the most in-depth information about him... And Rhaegar's figure is also opaque and enigmatic, we can't trust 100% what Barristan says about him. Like with Robert, we'd need to hear what Elia has to say. We get glimpses at how even Cersei idolized him, and the tender thoughts she has of him in her last FfC chapters, and we all know how Cersei is and how she feels about men. Rhaegar is the only man she doesn't think contemptuously of. Whatever the case, I'm positive we will learn much more about Rhaegar in the next two books, and from different POVs, especially if that theory comes true (I hope so!) and Ashara will appear in TWoW.

...Ok? Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. It's true that many more women died in childbirth than was the norm. It's true that GRRM is inconsistent when it comes to depicting that. It's true that our POVs never think of the women in their lives. It's true that we don't even hear of the achievements of some powerful ladies, we know nothing about the Stark women who ruled in the past. It's true that some women don't even get a name, they're merely "mother of x", "wife of x". It's true that Elia's rape, Tysha's rape, Lyanna's rape, and Rhaella's rape was only used for manpain and to give motivations to men. It's true that most of these didn't even occur during wartime so we can't have "muh realism" as an excuse. It's true we never hear how Catelyn's mom influenced her, how The Princess of Dorne was a good ruler but Arianne knows nothing about what made her effective, etc.

Also male rape did happen in the Middle Ages lol, the Vikings especially used it as a form of punishment, since the Ironborn are based on the Vikings we could have seen this cultural practice.

Edited by Peach King

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Another way men can exercise power over women in the setting is by packing them off to the Silent Sisters or the Faith:

“Marriage is not for you,” Theon decided. “When I rule, I believe I will pack you off to the silent sisters."

-ACOK, Theon II

Marriage will soften her, I have no doubt. A firm hand and a quiet word.”

“If not, there are the silent sisters.

-ADWD, Davos II

"Which brings us back to the five remaining daughters of Elys and Alys. The eldest had been left terribly scarred by the same pox that killed her sisters, so she became a septa. Another was seduced by a sellsword. Ser Elys cast her out, and she joined the silent sisters after her bastard died in infancy.”

-AFFC, Alayne II

(Big thanks to Asoiafuniversity on tumblr for providing me with most of these lol).

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Throughout medieval history, I can count with the fingers of my hands the number of women who were referred to on their own. All of them, no matter how powerful or relevant, are referred to as ''mother of x'' or ''wife of x'', as you say. Very few ladies earned, among their male counterparts and male historians who wrote History, their own titles: Matilde of Canossa (La Gran Contessa), Æthelflæd of Wessex (Lady of the Mercians) or Joan of Arc (La Pucelle d'Orléans), to name a few. I believe that GRRM tried to emulate real history when not giving the women of Westeros the credit they deserved, seen even in the way they are remembered by men and women alike. On the other hand, just because that's the way you see it doesn't mean it is a fact. Different point of views, which why I always refer to my arguments as ''the way I see it...''. 

I don't read a book with the preset mindset of ''I want women to have X or Y representation'', neither do I search for it. A story is a story and it is built as the author wants, then it's my choice or not to read the book. I, personally, don't see a problem in how Westerosi women are represented. I believe, from a medieval history point of view, that it is actually pretty realistic. Do you believe that in the Middle Ages women and young girls alike were pissed off because women didn't have enough representation? That's a modern optic. Maybe one in a hundred did, and that being optimistic. And we have this minority represented in ASoIaF too with Arya and Cersei: Arya often refers to Nymeria and old queens of the past as role models, and Cersei often complains, in her thoughts, about how women have no power in comparison to men, and how unjust that is. On the other hand we have Brienne, who is by all means a woman breaking the schemes of a world made for men, and if my memory doesn't fail me there isn't a single moment in all the books in which she complains about her position because she is a woman, or thinks about how the world is unjust to her for being one, or how there aren't enough/any other female knights, etc. Which serves to the argument of how women in the Middle Ages just didn't stop to think about gender roles or representation.

The fact that GRRM uses rape within the personal history of many of the women you mentioned is because it was a much more common violent tool towards women than it was for men: for men it was straight torture or death, not rape. Also, women don't participate in battles, sieges or parlays, so the chances of suffering any other means of violence is simply impossible. 

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Since I've highlighted just how unjust this world is, as was my intent, I think I'm done here.

I hope people will have a bit more nuance when talking about "imbalanced" couples in the series, as they would be hypocrites if they didn't condemn the married couples as well. And I hope GRRM doesn't go for the "Mad Dany" route.

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2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Yeah we will always question the realism of this fantasy. But we can’t compare it to our own modern world. We need to compare it to the realism of the Middle Ages. Tho of course us being from the modern world, we will always read the books from a modern world perspective (which is expected from the author). I have also had times where I questioned the realism of some of the aspects of asoiaf.

I just think it is really hard for us to figure out what exactly the realism of the middle ages was, since sexual abuse against men is not exactly something, that would be documented. As there are a lot of other things that aren't documented. And imo GRRM has filled in those planks by what he knows about "modern human nature". 

For example he knows most men desire power and than puts a character, who naturally desires power into a medieval context - makes him(her) probably even more power hungry, because, if they are noble --> lack of restrains by society. But maybe ppl in the middle ages were naturally less power hungry, than the average modern person- we don't know that.

In the end we can't really determine the psychology of the ppl in the middle ages with sure accuracy, we can only make assumption based on what we know about medieval life and values, belief system, culture and apply that to human nature/psychology of modern ppl.

We know that sexual violence against men caused by men is not uncommon today and since there are for sure examples of it happing throughout history: for example Rome, ancient Greek and it is known, that the Vikings had a habit of raping men. Why would we think that the psychology of medieval men is so different from modern men in this regard (with psychology I mean, that it probably did happen, the same way it does today)?

But I agree, that the existence of a brothel nearby, probably keep the number of rapes lower. And if it did happen, Jon might not have necessarily known about. But I think for realism sake GRRM should have put it in there, the same he did with countless rapes of women.

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2 hours ago, Peach King said:

The forum is being a fuck up and not letting me quote you, or copy your text, so....

Yeah its annoying.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

I only brought up male rape to say that all the childbirth deaths cannot be justified by realism.

Of those that died in childbirth, how would you have them die?

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

It's not realistic, because the number of deaths by childbirth weren't that high. (It was between 1% and 2.5%)

Its realistic because in the middle ages more than 1 out of 3 pregnant mothers would die in childbirth. 1% 2.5% is completely wrong. They never kept a count of all the women that died to childbirth.

 
 
 
 
2 hours ago, Peach King said:

About Catelyn's mom:

What? Catelyn was never Lady of Riverrun. And why are you deciding her mom's personality for her? Maybe her mom would have fed Lysa tansy and made her have a forced abortion and would marry her off to Jon Arryn too. It could have been a good commentary on how women suffer under the patriarchy but also uphold it.

Yes, Catelyn was the acting lady of riverrun as Hoster's favourite. She ran the household like the wife of the lord would do.

If Lysa had a mother she wouldn't feel neglected and she would have approached her mother about the pregnancy, and this would've been dealt with a mothers touch, not an ambitious father that uses his daughters as political tools. Lysa never helped the Riverlands because she disliked her father and was jealous of Cat. If her caring mother was alive we might have seen the knights of the vale enter the Riverlands once again.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

About Ned's mom:

She would have been a 60 year old lady. She's no impediment to Theon and Theon's betrayal could be even more highlighted by him killing an old lady.

How old is Olenna? We don't know Ned's mother. 

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

About Brienne's mom:

Again you are deciding her mom's personality for her. Maybe she would have been as accommodating as Selwyn of Brienne's desires.

She would've been the traditional westerosi mother, or maybe she wouldn't have. Yknow how embarrassing it is for a mother to see her own daughter fight, dress, and act like a boy (medieval society please dont apply your modernized mothers into it). Briennes father allowed her to receive training at arms. If Briennes mom was present she would've filled her mind with girly fairy tales and probably soften her more. The fact is that mothers absence causes the son and daughter to be more influenced by the martial father.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

We could have heard more about how she influenced Tywin's policies, his ruling, etc. Agree about the Princess.

That can come with Fire and Blood part 2. She did influence Tywin's policies, she invited Oberyn and Elia to arrange a marriage with her children. Isn't that good enough? Or you want more from a pre-series character, who died many years before Roberts rebellion.

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

Yep - Daenerys, Jon Con, Barristan, Jaime.

Daenerys, who was born after Rhaegar and Aerys died, and never met her mother. Barristan who was a kingsguard and his duties prevented him from spending time with the neglected Queen. Jamie the one that probably never spent friendly time with Elia, lyanna, or rhaella. None of these guys you mentioned has had some sort of friendship with these dead characters. Jon con never liked Elia and was never interested in women. He just followed Rhaegar around like a loyal lap dog.

 
 
 
 
2 hours ago, Peach King said:

I can actually forgive Ashara, as she's meant to be a mystery. But so what? Brienne loved Renly and that was blind love too and she's brought up more in her POV than Ashara in Barristan's.

Brienne still has the scars of Renlys death, and she spent close time with him. Barristan hasn't seen Ashara in 17 years.

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

 Hey, Renly is actually a man who was fridged for a woman's character development. That was progressive of GRRM.

Tysha is another example of a woman who is only defined by her relationships with men.

Neds death helped Arya, and Sansa's character development. Robbs death helped with Lady Stonehearts character development. Many characters death helped with another's character development. Don't just target the female ones and call it whatever you were calling it.

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3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Yeah we will always question the realism of this fantasy. But we can’t compare it to our own modern world. We need to compare it to the realism of the Middle Ages. Tho of course us being from the modern world, we will always read the books from a modern world perspective (which is expected from the author). I have also had times where I questioned the realism of some of the aspects of asoiaf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wartime_sexual_violence#Rape_of_men  here you find a bit about the rape of men and why we kind of perceive it as non-existent. It's because of a culture of silence. I know it's just wiki lol was kind to lazy to find better sources

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2 hours ago, S. D said:

Since I've highlighted just how unjust this world is, as was my intent, I think I'm done here.

I hope people will have a bit more nuance when talking about "imbalanced" couples in the series, as they would be hypocrites if they didn't condemn the married couples as well. And I hope GRRM doesn't go for the "Mad Dany" route.

You mean mad like her Dad? 

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10 hours ago, iberiandirewolf said:

Throughout medieval history, I can count with the fingers of my hands the number of women who were referred to on their own. All of them, no matter how powerful or relevant, are referred to as ''mother of x'' or ''wife of x'', as you say. Very few ladies earned, among their male counterparts and male historians who wrote History, their own titles: Matilde of Canossa (La Gran Contessa), Æthelflæd of Wessex (Lady of the Mercians) or Joan of Arc (La Pucelle d'Orléans), to name a few. I believe that GRRM tried to emulate real history when not giving the women of Westeros the credit they deserved, seen even in the way they are remembered by men and women alike. On the other hand, just because that's the way you see it doesn't mean it is a fact. Different point of views, which why I always refer to my arguments as ''the way I see it...''. 

I don't read a book with the preset mindset of ''I want women to have X or Y representation'', neither do I search for it. A story is a story and it is built as the author wants, then it's my choice or not to read the book. I, personally, don't see a problem in how Westerosi women are represented. I believe, from a medieval history point of view, that it is actually pretty realistic. Do you believe that in the Middle Ages women and young girls alike were pissed off because women didn't have enough representation? That's a modern optic. Maybe one in a hundred did, and that being optimistic. And we have this minority represented in ASoIaF too with Arya and Cersei: Arya often refers to Nymeria and old queens of the past as role models, and Cersei often complains, in her thoughts, about how women have no power in comparison to men, and how unjust that is. On the other hand we have Brienne, who is by all means a woman breaking the schemes of a world made for men, and if my memory doesn't fail me there isn't a single moment in all the books in which she complains about her position because she is a woman, or thinks about how the world is unjust to her for being one, or how there aren't enough/any other female knights, etc. Which serves to the argument of how women in the Middle Ages just didn't stop to think about gender roles or representation.

The fact that GRRM uses rape within the personal history of many of the women you mentioned is because it was a much more common violent tool towards women than it was for men: for men it was straight torture or death, not rape. Also, women don't participate in battles, sieges or parlays, so the chances of suffering any other means of violence is simply impossible. 

You keep citing "historical accuracy" but as I keep saying, women dying in childbirth in droves is not historically accurate. These women seemed perfectly healthy as well, and they have c- sections in Westeros. Why couldn't they die from diseases, or from accidents? Nope, it always has to be childbirth.

And women weren't this maligned in our actual history.

And I'm not talking about these women being recorded in history, I'm talking about them being remembered by the people in their lives. But we should at least have some idea about Catelyn's mother, Ned's mother,  Brienne's mother, for Arianne to have some idea of what made The Princess of Dorne an effective ruler. Arianne doesn't even think about her mother Mellario.

In real life history, kings and lords and other noblemen shared or preserved information about their wives or mothers or sisters or w/e, in spite of the extremely misogynistic medieval societies they lived in. 

Ok, so you don't want representation. But ASOIAF should not be upheld as a well researched portrayal of women in Middle Ages. 

And the rape is not accurate. The Right of First Night is not accurate. That a Lord could rape any peasant woman under their jurisdiction is not accurate. 

Edited by Peach King

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@The Young Maester

Quote

Of those that died in childbirth, how would you have them die?

How about from from diseases, if it's supposed to be realistic?

Quote

Its realistic because in the middle ages more than 1 out of 3 pregnant mothers would die in childbirth. 1% 2.5% is completely wrong. They never kept a count of all the women that died to childbirth.

Wrong, 1 in 3 women died during their childbirthing years, it wasn't that 1 in 3 women died during childbirth.

You're not even reading what I'm writing and deciding these ladies' personalities for them.

If Ned's mom wasn't 60, she would have been around 50. And we know nothing about whether she was capable or not (cause we know nothing about her).

Selywyn tried to marry Brienne off to men until he gave up and accepted her being a fighter. The same could have happened with her mom. Catelyn is an example of a traditional noble woman who came to respect Brienne.

Catelyn was never Lady of Riverrun. She was groomed to be Lady until Edmure was born, was married off to Ned, became Lady of Winterfell, went south with Robb and Edmure acted as Lord, then when Edmure left she freed Jaime. None of these actions required her to be Lady of Riverrun. And it takes a second to make Minisa Whent ambitious and cold like Hoster (or at least a woman who feels it's her duty to do whatever her husband says). Her personality isn't set in stone. All we know is that she has a warm smile.

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Or you want more from a pre-series character.

Apart from that, we know Joanna was sexually assaulted by Aerys. We get it GRRM, this is a terrible world for women.

Rickard Stark has the Southron Ambitions theory, for such a small character he has a lot of political influence. And we should have learnt what the Princess of Dorne's name was in TWOIAF.

Daenerys could have heard heard more about Rhaella from Viserys. Barristan would spend a lot of time with the queen, or the princess, he's a Kingsguard. Jaime as well, and we know he did because he talked about Aerys visiting Rhaella. And we could have heard more about them in TWOIAF. 

I already said I can forgive Ashara, but I'd like to point out Brienne replaces Renly with Jaime, but Barristan kept on idealizing Ashara.

As for Ned and Robb, those aren't good examples, they get plenty of page time in the novels lol. Men get motivations, objectives, depth, women get "she was beautiful", "she was dutiful", "she was gentle" etc etc 

I'll quote joannalannister here: "the Dead Ladies Club, at least for me, isn’t “omg a woman died, let’s be outraged!” and it’s not “we know nothing about this dead woman, let’s be outraged!” and it’s not “omg this woman died in childbirth, let’s be outraged!”, it’s more about, “this woman was clearly denied her humanity by the narrative and there isn’t a good reason for it.” 

Edited by Peach King

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8 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

You mean mad like her Dad? 

Yeah, I hope GRRM doesn't go for the show route.

 Also here's the revised HealthinessTM scale:

1. Is there violence? (3 - 5 depending on severity)

2. Is there rape? (defined as when the wife is actively resisting, or when she hates the act while the husband doesn't) (5)

3. Does the husband love and respect the wife? (3)

4. Does the husband ask/value the wife's opinion? (3)

5. Does the husband have the well- being of the wife in mind/ does he care for her as a person? (2)

6. Does he force her (often) to do things she doesn't want to do? (3)

7. Does he consider his wife -her well- being, not putting her in danger- in his decision making?  (3)

8. Does he have mistresses/does he cheat on his wife? (2)

9. Does the wife come from a powerful family? (3)

10. Is the husband close in age to the wife? (3)

11. General: does he take advantage of his power over her (how often)? (what would be considered taking advantage of his power? (1 to 3 depending on severity).

Edited by S. D

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1 hour ago, S. D said:

Yeah, I hope GRRM doesn't go for the show route.

 Also here's the revised HealthinessTM scale:

1. Is there violence? (3 - 5 depending on severity)

2. Is there rape? (defined as when the wife is actively resisting, or when she hates the act while the husband doesn't) (5)

3. Does the husband love and respect the wife? (3)

4. Does the husband ask/value the wife's opinion? (3)

5. Does the husband have the well- being of the wife in mind/ does he care for her as a person? (2)

6. Does he force her (often) to do things she doesn't want to do? (3)

7. Does he consider his wife -her well- being, not putting her in danger- in his decision making?  (3)

8. Does he have mistresses/does he cheat on his wife? (2)

9. Does the wife come from a powerful family? (3)

10. Is the husband close in age to the wife? (3)

11. General: does he take advantage of his power over her (how often)? (what would be considered taking advantage of his power? (1 to 3 depending on severity).

Thank you! I'd definitely distribute the points differently ( rape and violence are way more severe to me) but has been great exploring this concept :) 

You mean you don't want her to die in the end? I kind of don't think, that they would change it up that much. But I was thinking, maybe it's Jon, who becomes "evil" or goes mad. We don't know, who'll he be, when he comes back. Or at least he becomes morally very dark grey. Who knows that it will be Dany's "fault", that he'll do what he does?

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10 hours ago, Peach King said:

And I'm not talking about these women being recorded in history, I'm talking about them being remembered by the people in their lives. But we should at least have some idea about Catelyn's mother, Ned's mother,  Brienne's mother, for Arianne to have some idea of what made The Princess of Dorne an effective ruler. Arianne doesn't even think about her mother Mellario.

 

That is something I missed too. Women seem to be much more important within the Dorne royal family than in the other families of Westeros, so I'm positive we'll learn more about them, but I agree on the rest. We know nothing of the Tullys or other Stark women, save the infamous Lyanna.

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