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Angel Eyes

Why couldn't Robb send a team to retrieve Sansa?

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Connected to the Cruel Robb thread, why couldn't Robb send a team of trusted soldiers to infiltrate the capitol and rescue Sansa and Arya (he doesn't know Arya's AWOL)? He wouldn't have to bring an army while he attacks the Westerlands and it would alleviate Catelyn's fears of what Joffrey and Cersei were doing (which turned out to be well-founded).

Any other reasons to send a team?

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Why?  Because Ninja's did not exist in Westeros.  The best they could get, and the Starks could not afford, are the faceless men.  I doubt the FM can do the job. 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Connected to the Cruel Robb thread, why couldn't Robb send a team of trusted soldiers to infiltrate the capitol and rescue Sansa and Arya (he doesn't know Arya's AWOL)? He wouldn't have to bring an army while he attacks the Westerlands and it would alleviate Catelyn's fears of what Joffrey and Cersei were doing (which turned out to be well-founded).

Any other reasons to send a team?

I think he could have. Tyrion tried to bust Jaime out - even though it didn't succeed. Robb may have had it a little easier though since it's a bigger place & Sansa isn't chained up. She is watched closely though so I'm not sure. 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think he could have. Tyrion tried to bust Jaime out - even though it didn't succeed. Robb may have had it a little easier though since it's a bigger place & Sansa isn't chained up. She is watched closely though so I'm not sure. 

I think the bolded is the biggest obstacle, it would have been pretty difficult to unobtrusively extract an unknowing Sansa, and if they had made contact and made a plan, Sansa herself would have thrown a wrench into it, like she did with both Ned’s and the Tyrells’ plans. It would have probably been an inadvertent wrench, a la the Tyrells’ plan, because I do think Sansa learned her lesson from her disclosure to Cersei, but it would have been a wrench all the same (I’m not saying Robb would have known this, but it is a justification for why it wasn’t written).

Tyrion’s failed attempt is also a good reason not to try, Tyrion’s plan was a good one, and still fell apart at the end. Robb had far fewer resources available to him than Tyrion, which he would have known. And a failed rescue attempt could easily have led to Sansa being executed for treason. 

@Angel Eyes - I believe at some point (maybe when he’s telling Cat his plan to name Jon his heir?), Robb acknowledges that Arya has been missing since Ned’s beheading, so unless he made the rescue attempt very early in Clash, he would have known it was a single target. We don’t know who his inside King’s Landing source is, but if they knew Arya was missing, they would have also known Sansa was being watched by Cersei. They would have needed a skilled and knowledgeable team, and as others have pointed out, that wasn’t something that existed or was available to Robb. 

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Could it be that Robb would have perceived it as dishonorable? But they already killed his father...so I guess not? But for some reason I just can't see Robb doing something so "dishonest", even if it goes against the Lannisters. Otherwise wouldn't he have just done it?

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It would be impossible.

If Robb tried to send a search party like Tyrion did, they would not be let inside the city like Tyrion said,

If Robb tried to send men without his banner to infiltrate KL, they would not be allowed at the Red Keep so they could not reach Sansa.

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The Red Keep is too complex and full of courtiers to break someone out. As soon as someone saw a group of northmen in kings landing, they’d be busted. Maybe he could’ve used riverlanders but still how are they going to enter the Red keep in the first place? Sewers and secret underground tunnels, I doubt Robb would be aware of these tunnels. Maybe if Arya was at Riverrun but it still is a long shot. 

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9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Could it be that Robb would have perceived it as dishonorable? But they already killed his father...so I guess not? But for some reason I just can't see Robb doing something so "dishonest", even if it goes against the Lannisters. Otherwise wouldn't he have just done it?

The more threads I see about Robb, the more it makes me think he was a weak king (for northern standards). The Kings of winter are described as cruel/ruthless men. It takes a cruel and ruthless man to conquer and unite the north.

Robb did have the authority and the respect. But his traits made him more of a southern king. Robb would’ve made a good king in the south, maybe king of the vale or reach. But not the North.

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31 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

The more threads I see about Robb, the more it makes me think he was a weak king (for northern standards). The Kings of winter are described as cruel/ruthless men. It takes a cruel and ruthless man to conquer and unite the north.

Robb did have the authority and the respect. But his traits made him more of a southern king. Robb would’ve made a good king in the south, maybe king of the vale or reach. But not the North.

On paper Robb seems great. He's charismatic, kind, a good leader, great tactician, and a pretty decent general. However, as The Young Maester points out, he doesn't seem to be a very good king (I draw a distinction between being a leader and being a king). He is always mentioned as being more Tully than Stark and that shows most when considering his tenure as KitN. Northmen are hard and fickle, and I don't think being cruel/ruthless is a must-have trait to be KitN, but it sure seems like it would help with commanding respect and managing strong northern personalities that value strength and conviction. I definitely agree that Robb would have made a better southron king, but so it goes. 

 

As other have pointed out, it doesn't seem very practical or plausible for Robb to have send anyone to rescue Sansa. He fears for the safety of his sister and I believe he is wise enough to know that Cersei wouldn't be so careless with such a valuable hostage. The original idea was to trade Jaime for his sisters so one can assume that that deal was his best chance at getting her back (thanks, Cat). Unless Robb has someone as sneaky as someone like Varys planted in KL (which he doesn't) there would seem to be no other way to rescue Sansa without putting her in unnecessary danger. Deep down I think Robb always knew there would be a chance he would never see his sisters again. 

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17 minutes ago, Lord Daedrunk said:

On paper Robb seems great. He's charismatic, kind, a good leader, great tactician, and a pretty decent general. However, as The Young Maester points out, he doesn't seem to be a very good king (I draw a distinction between being a leader and being a king). He is always mentioned as being more Tully than Stark and that shows most when considering his tenure as KitN. Northmen are hard and fickle, and I don't think being cruel/ruthless is a must-have trait to be KitN, but it sure seems like it would help with commanding respect and managing strong northern personalities that value strength and conviction. I definitely agree that Robb would have made a better southron king, but so it goes. 

 

As other have pointed out, it doesn't seem very practical or plausible for Robb to have send anyone to rescue Sansa. He fears for the safety of his sister and I believe he is wise enough to know that Cersei wouldn't be so careless with such a valuable hostage. The original idea was to trade Jaime for his sisters so one can assume that that deal was his best chance at getting her back (thanks, Cat). Unless Robb has someone as sneaky as someone like Varys planted in KL (which he doesn't) there would seem to be no other way to rescue Sansa without putting her in unnecessary danger. Deep down I think Robb always knew there would be a chance he would never see his sisters again. 

Robb greatest achievement was being a martyr for the northmen. A hundred years from now he shall serve as a reminder of why southerners are not to be trusted. They will remember him as the young wolf, who never lost a battle and was ultimately betrayed by his allies. It would make a good song, for the northmen at least. 

I am of the opinion that Robb shouldn’t have traded his sisters. On his March north he could’ve used Jamie as a threat towards Tywin, “invade the riverlands again and I shall send your sons cock back to you” He could’ve sent a private message in order to not insult and damage House Lannister’s pride publicly. I somehow think this could’ve worked, well more like 40% chance.

Unless house stark had influence at court (which they don’t) a rescue mission wouldn’t have worked. 

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12 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Could it be that Robb would have perceived it as dishonorable? But they already killed his father...so I guess not? But for some reason I just can't see Robb doing something so "dishonest", even if it goes against the Lannisters. Otherwise wouldn't he have just done it?

Pretty much this. Ill tweak it a bit though, Robb wouldn't do anything that dishonest because the idea would never cross his mind. Tyrion is conniving, Robb is not. Then again Barri isnt conniving either yet rescued Aerys at Duskendale and now is orchestrating thr rescue of Darrio and friends. So maybe Robb just needed a push

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

The Red Keep is too complex and full of courtiers to break someone out. As soon as someone saw a group of northmen in kings landing, they’d be busted. Maybe he could’ve used riverlanders but still how are they going to enter the Red keep in the first place? Sewers and secret underground tunnels, I doubt Robb would be aware of these tunnels. Maybe if Arya was at Riverrun but it still is a long shot. 

Of course its possible, there's the tunnels like you said and the staircase to the Godswood. Greywind was useful at finding hidden trails, as would an ordinary spy.  Getting into the Red Keep shouldn't be too difficult.

Getting into the city itself would be hysterically easy. Smallfolk were pouring in, just keep your head down and say m'lord alot. Itll only cost a few pennies.

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

The more threads I see about Robb, the more it makes me think he was a weak king (for northern standards). The Kings of winter are described as cruel/ruthless men. It takes a cruel and ruthless man to conquer and unite the north.

Robb did have the authority and the respect. But his traits made him more of a southern king. Robb would’ve made a good king in the south, maybe king of the vale or reach. But not the North.

I disagree. Robb was a pretty strong king I think. As for these Northern Standards stuff, he chopped of Karstarks head personally, so thats something. 

In fact this whole Karstark business was pretty ruthless, as was using Greywind to chomp on Greatjons fingers.

The stories of the cruel kings of winter, are probably (for the most part) just that, embellished stories. As far as Robb goes, hes got stories too. From Lancels description of Oxcross to Rhegar Freys slander about the RW

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3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The stories of the cruel kings of winter, are probably (for the most part) just that, embellished stories. As far as Robb goes, hes got stories too. From Lancels description of Oxcross to Rhegar Freys slander about the RW

Well not really because the Kings of winter sometimes would execute entire families for refusing to swear fealty. It takes a hard man to rule a hard land, especially a land that’s independent and has to face outside threats. Even Ned himself said the kings of winter were hard man. 

I doubt honour was much of a thing around the first men. You probably had something like first men’s honour in which it probably involves fighting your opponent head on and every once and a while keeping your word. Tho we don’t know much about first men honour so it’s mostly speculation. 

But this is the thing Ned is very well known as an honourable man. But where did he get this sort of honour from? The vale where chivalry and honour is a big thing. No doubt Ned was anyways heading towards the honourable path whilst growing up but not a southerners honour. Him being partially raised in the vale together with his humble like traits made him more akin to a northmen with southern honour. These honourable traits he passed down to his sons.

Ned was probably the first lord of winterfell that was liked by nobles in the south. Since Starks never ventured south till Rickards days.

15 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I disagree. Robb was a pretty strong king I think. As for these Northern Standards stuff, he chopped of Karstarks head personally, so thats something. 

 In fact this whole Karstark business was pretty ruthless, as was using Greywind to chomp on Greatjons fingers.

The Greatjon thing was pretty impressive, whilst chopping off Karstark head himself was northern thing to do as well. But everything else he has done outweighs these factors.
He is a strong king in the south. A northern king would’ve pillaged and murdered his way through the westerlands. Not just seize some crops at sword point.

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1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Well not really because the Kings of winter sometimes would execute entire families for refusing to swear fealty. It takes a hard man to rule a hard land, especially a land that’s independent and has to face outside threats. Even Ned himself said the kings of winter were hard man. 

Well, Ned was exceptionally soft though I think executing families is more under the lines of psychopath then hard. 

Regardless Robb did not lose because he was soft.

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

I doubt honour was much of a thing around the first men. You probably had something like first men’s honour in which it probably involves fighting your opponent head on and every once and a while keeping your word. Tho we don’t know much about first men honour so it’s mostly speculation. 

We know a little bit about the First Mens honor, they took guest rights very seriously for instance. Or when Reeds swore by wind and mud and ice and fire or whatever. I dont remember what they said exactly but it sounded honorable.

And then the First Mens favorite tradition, chopping heads off personally. Not as Cat thinks, that taking a life shouldn't be easy, or what Theon thinks, that youve got to show your in control, but what Jon thinks. Look into their eyes, if they dont deserve death then dont chop. Robb I believe understood Neds advice as well. (Ned did not). Honorable stuff man. 

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

But this is the thing Ned is very well known as an honourable man. But where did he get this sort of honour from? The vale where chivalry and honour is a big thing. No doubt Ned was anyways heading towards the honourable path whilst growing up but not a southerners honour. Him being partially raised in the vale together with his humble like traits made him more akin to a northmen with southern honour. These honourable traits he passed down to his sons.

If Neds honor was largely influenced by Arryn then Robert too should have been honorable, he wasnt. 

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Ned was probably the first lord of winterfell that was liked by nobles in the south. Since Starks never ventured south till Rickards days.

Who liked Ned? I mean Robert, and I guees Cat lol

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

The Greatjon thing was pretty impressive, whilst chopping off Karstark head himself was northern thing to do as well. But everything else he has done outweighs these factors.

Like what? Calling off an engagement, butchering Lannister recruits?

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

He is a strong king in the south. A northern king would’ve pillaged and murdered his way through the westerlands. Not just seize some crops at sword point.

Because hes a savage who worships trees? Some warlords are harder then others, the soft ones are still war lords

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It probably just didn't occur to him.  The northerners cannot comprehend the circumstances of King's Landing, as it is completly alien to them.  Would it have worked?  Absolutely, given the right person to plan and execute it.  Littlefinger was able to extract Sansa with ease at a time of his choosing.   

Getting into the city is easy.  A city of half a million people with as primitive of a government as King's Landing will be child's play to infiltrate.  Sansa was not always locked into the Red Keep, a perfect time to acquire her would have been during the riot, or a similiar event.

The difficult thing for Robb would be finding and hiring the right person.  He would need someone loyal and skilled at subterfuge, which he doesn't seem to have had.  He and his allies come from generally rural backgrounds, and that doesn't lead to the right set of skills for this sort of a task.

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The only way Tyrion was able to attempt a rescue was through the decoy of an Envoy, a trick that appalled Robb's army and was a violation of the rules of war. Without it, he would have had no luck trying to get men close to Jaime. Robb doesn't have the men who have sufficient experience with King's Landing, either the physical layout or the people involved to be sneaking around. Littlefinger was successful because he was intimately familiar with both aspects of KL.

It's possible Robb could have sent several skilled men to pretend to be peasants, sneak past Harrenhal without being captured by Tywin's outriders, and make their way to KL. Then what? How are they going to sneak around the Red Keep without being noticed, especially not knowing their way around? Even if they got to Sansa (and they have every reason to believe she's being guarded well), how will they get her back out?

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8 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

The more threads I see about Robb, the more it makes me think he was a weak king (for northern standards). The Kings of winter are described as cruel/ruthless men. It takes a cruel and ruthless man to conquer and unite the north.

Robb did have the authority and the respect. But his traits made him more of a southern king. Robb would’ve made a good king in the south, maybe king of the vale or reach. But not the North.

I think this is a bit unfair with him. No one would be able to win in his situation. 

Robb starting position was god awful and was not his mistakes that lead to it, Ned messed everything up in the capital, Catelyn lost Tyrion, Sansa is a hostage, Arya is missing, Widdling are treatining the wall, winter is close and he need to let his people collect the crops for it, meanwhile Edmure is making blunder after blunder in the Riverlands, becoming a hostage himself, and Hoster Tully worsened his relationship with his biggest bannerman that controls the passing from north to the riverlands.

Then when he became King everything that could go wrong went worse, he was betrayed by everyone, his bannerman (Bolton, Karstark and Frey) his best friend (Theon) his family (Catelyn freeing Jaime and Lysa), the guy that has a common goal with him Balon, decided to attack him for reasons, Edmure keeps pushing on blunder after blunder... The Lannisters out of the blue, without moving a finger not only get riddle of their biggest threat (Renly), but also gain the biggest army as ally in a single stroke (Tyrells).

No matter what he did, Robb was doomed, being cruel would not change that.

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3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 I think this is a bit unfair with him. No one would be able to win in his situation. 

Robb starting position was god awful and was not his mistakes that lead to it, Ned messed everything up in the capital, Catelyn lost Tyrion, Sansa is a hostage, Arya is missing, Widdling are treatining the wall, winter is close and he need to let his people collect the crops for it, meanwhile Edmure is making blunder after blunder in the Riverlands, becoming a hostage himself, and Hoster Tully worsened his relationship with his biggest bannerman that controls the passing from north to the riverlands.

Then when he became King everything that could go wrong went worse, he was betrayed by everyone, his bannerman (Bolton, Karstark and Frey) his best friend (Theon) his family (Catelyn freeing Jaime and Lysa), the guy that has a common goal with him Balon, decided to attack him for reasons, Edmure keeps pushing on blunder after blunder... The Lannisters out of the blue, without moving a finger not only get riddle of their biggest threat (Renly), but also gain the biggest army as ally in a single stroke (Tyrells).

No matter what he did, Robb was doomed, being cruel would not change that.

Yes, that is true, no one in his position would've won, maybe retreated and left the riverlands to the fate of the lannisters. I dont deny it that no matter if he was another Tywin or Daeron the young dragon, he still would've lost. I just dont see him being that great of a king for the north. Too kind, trusting, and naive (but thats with his age and inexperience). 

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36 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Yes, that is true, no one in his position would've won, maybe retreated and left the riverlands to the fate of the lannisters. I dont deny it that no matter if he was another Tywin or Daeron the young dragon, he still would've lost. I just dont see him being that great of a king for the north. Too kind, trusting, and naive (but thats with his age and inexperience). 

Maybe is just me, but I don't see Robb as naive and trusting.

Sure he started naive, as seem in the Twins he is overconfident in Walder, but later on even Catelyn is reflecting that Robb was manipulating the flow of their conversation and forced her to forgive him for the Jeyne fiasco. 

the way I saw, Robb's main flaws are his youth, his stuborness and overconfidence.

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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Who liked Ned? I mean Robert, and I guees Cat lol

The mountain clans seems to like him very much, with the whole "save Ned's little girl" thing.

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