Apple's TV show based on Asimov's FOUNDATION, starring Jared Harris

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Ah, okay. Thanks. 

Yep, massive space elevator leading to a giant orbital space terminal for interstellar travel.

[Ran]

I think this was a really good episode for the most part, but as Linda noted to me the most fascinating part right now is the genetic dynasty and what's going on there -- which is a complete invention by Goyer and co., but it's working really well. But what happens when that comes to an end? How long will Pace and Mann and so on be around? The Empire must fall. I think the seeds are there, and more explicitly this last episode with what's going on with both Brother Dawn and Brother Day.

Spoiler

A theory: I think the boy Salvor -- who is clearly being treated as the first "mentalic" or  something of the sort -- is seeing is ... the Mule. Who may be her own son.

Alternatively, she's seeing Raych when he was a boy, I guess?  

Still sucks that they have yet to tell us anything at all about Raych. And made a cliffhanger of 

Spoiler

Gaal being picked up.

Also, have to say, this is again  surely one of the most impressive TV shows ever put together from a visuals perspective. So many different monumental architectures, so many interesting and wildly varied costume designs, amazing VFX.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Ran

[David Selig]

I thought it was another bad episode, though thankfully less boring than the previous one. All the production values are wasted by the horrendous writing.

Spoiler

"If you were better at math, you'd know that repeated luck was more than just luck, Salvor" - this is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while. And then they had to basically repeat it a bit later to drive this moronic point home.

 

[Ran]

13 hours ago, David Selig said:

I thought it was another bad episode, though thankfully less boring than the previous one. All the production values are wasted by the horrendous writing.

 

Admittedly, I did cringe at Brother Day asking "Is that the best you've got?!" Rather cliche line.

Spoiler

I'm less bugged by the fact that they're making a point that Salvor wasn't using any sort of trick but yet somehow knew exactly what the coin flip would be. They've never introduced the idea of "mentalics" and so on, which I assume is what explains Salvor's ability, plus her mind-reading of the Grand Huntress -- badass title, BTW! -- and that she can approach the Vault. So people pointing out the fact that she's able to do stuff that no one else should be able to do is pretty important.

Linda recognized Ian MacNiece right off, but I admit, he looked different enough -- the years and some weight loss, I think? -- that I did not.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Ran

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

It was less plodding than the last two episodes but it still seems to be struggling to get… somewhere.

[karaddin]

@Ran I agree on the Emperor brothers being compelling. I'm starting to think we'll get them for most of the season, the pace feels like we're only going to cover the fall at this point. Which is probably my biggest concern at this point - the pacing started to be a real issue for me, and I'm not really on board with the double whammy cliff hangers that shouldn't be cliffhangers. Especially for Gaal, we've already had a 2 episode long cliff hanger and then they try to double dip on the already running cliff hanger with the question of who is picking her up?

I think I'll be ok with the pacing in the long run if we start getting pay off in the next one, but it can't afford to keep doing set up for another 2-3 episodes.

Agreed with you on how visually gorgeous it is, and there's helping to carry the show. On that note...

What was the deal with the outdoor ritual on the moon of the gas giant that launched planet killers into the gas giant? The outcome seemed similar to what we were being told had happened to Anecreon but it happened while we were talking about the religion, which is a bit clunky visual language if that's what it was. Also I thought we saw what Empire did to them in ep1 and it was bombardment from ships directly onto it? 

[Scott_N]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

I think this was a really good episode for the most part, but as Linda noted to me the most fascinating part right now is the genetic dynasty and what's going on there -- which is a complete invention by Goyer and co., but it's working really well. But what happens when that comes to an end? How long will Pace and Mann and so on be around? The Empire must fall. I think the seeds are there, and more explicitly this last episode with what's going on with both Brother Dawn and Brother Day.

  Reveal hidden contents

A theory: I think the boy Salvor -- who is clearly being treated as the first "mentalic" or  something of the sort -- is seeing is ... the Mule. Who may be her own son.

Alternatively, she's seeing Raych when he was a boy, I guess?  

Still sucks that they have yet to tell us anything at all about Raych. And made a cliffhanger of 

  Reveal hidden contents

Gaal being picked up.

Also, have to say, this is again  surely one of the most impressive TV shows ever put together from a visuals perspective. So many different monumental architectures, so many interesting and wildly varied costume designs, amazing VFX.

I'd agree it's visually very impressive. But the storytelling is not so this is starting to feel like just another example of ambient tv. What a missed opportunity.

[Ran]

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

What was the deal with the outdoor ritual on the moon of the gas giant that launched planet killers into the gas giant? The outcome seemed similar to what we were being told had happened to Anecreon but it happened while we were talking about the religion, which is a bit clunky visual language if that's what it was. Also I thought we saw what Empire did to them in ep1 and it was bombardment from ships directly onto it? 

I think this was a ritual of the Luminists to commemorate the death of the Proxima, the leader of the faith. But I guess it also makes one realize that the central Luminist planet has a bunch of interplanetary nukes, which may be important down the road.

7 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think I'll be ok with the pacing in the long run if we start getting pay off in the next one, but it can't afford to keep doing set up for another 2-3 episodes.

I think that's fair. They need to start showing their hand, certainly by the mid-point of the series, or it's going to be impossible to actually make a strong narrative, IMO. It's all setup right now, or seemingly is, and if that doesn't pay off it'll be a big mistake.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Ran

[Werthead]

It's been renewed for Season 2 and they confirmed they're going to get into the Trader Princes and then Bel Riose next season, saving the Mule for Season 3, I assume.

This was another solid-ish episode, again let down by the Trantor stuff being more interesting than the Terminus storyline, but the Terminus storyline is better than it was. It looks like the Ancreon stuff (just the second and third - of five - stories in the original Foundation) is going to be the focus of the first season, which is remarkable given how little space it takes up in the book.

[Lord Patrek]

Watched all four episodes yesterday.

Thus far, the series is visually stunning, but otherwise boring.

[SpaceChampion]

I thought the 4th episode was good.  Finally getting into the premise of the Foundation dealing with crises periodically.  It's a bit Doctor Who-ish, in the sense that there needs to be a change of perspective to solve the crisis.

[Annara Snow]

These guys are doing really detailed reviews and analyses of each episode. If you have the time to listen to 2-hour long podcasts, give it a try:

 

 

[Werthead]

Hmm. That felt a bit oddly paced. The flashbacks to Gaal's past felt a little redundant (didn't we cover this previously) and slowed down the on-Terminus action too much.

I'm a bit worried that they're dedicating the entire season to this storyline (mixed in with Gaal presumably making her way to Terminus and clearing her name and more of the clone emperors doing clone emperor stuff), which is way too much for another five hours.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

3 hours ago, Werthead said:

Hmm. That felt a bit oddly paced. The flashbacks to Gaal's past felt a little redundant (didn't we cover this previously) and slowed down the on-Terminus action too much.

I'm a bit worried that they're dedicating the entire season to this storyline (mixed in with Gaal presumably making her way to Terminus and clearing her name and more of the clone emperors doing clone emperor stuff), which is way too much for another five hours.

Are we supposed to be incredibly confused by what’s going on?  Because… I’m just confused.

[David Selig]

The pacing has been dreadful the whole season IMO, almost every scene takes way longer than it should. Wasting 20 minutes on Gaal's backstory which we already knew and is boring and implausible as it gets was an indefensible decision.

The showrunner did an AMA on Reddit today, BTW - https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/q8r4b0/david_s_goyer_foundation_showrunner_ama/

Spoiler

He gave a pretty strong hint that Gaal is a composite of Book Gaal and Wanda Seldon. He also denied that any of the main characters are supposed to be a "Chosen One".

 

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, David Selig said:

The pacing has been dreadful the whole season IMO, almost every scene takes way longer than it should. Wasting 20 minutes on Gaal's backstory which we already knew and is boring and implausible as it gets was an indefensible decision.

The showrunner did an AMA on Reddit today, BTW - https://www.reddit.com/r/FoundationTV/comments/q8r4b0/david_s_goyer_foundation_showrunner_ama/

  Hide contents

He gave a pretty strong hint that Gaal is a composite of Book Gaal and Wanda Seldon. He also denied that any of the main characters are supposed to be a "Chosen One".

 

Ah, that's interesting. They do not have the rights to R. Daneel Olivaw, as a character who originated in the Robots series which is under option elsewhere, which meant they had to change Demerzel's character (and make her a separate entity).

He also notes that the relationship between the show and the books is more akin to the relationship between the MCU and the comics than a direct adaptation.

Plus, the plan seems to be to show the full span of the Foundation and the full 1,000-year history of the interregnum, which Asimov only got halfway through in the books.

[karaddin]

My attempt to follow what's going on from this episode is that

1) Hari's plan was substantially more detailed than he let on and included his own martyrdom. That was probably an event that was going to happen regardless and earlier on his own terms results in less damage when it happens, so it's the reason Raych did it and why they apparently had this automated ship following along to pick her up. I guess Gaal is his contingency plan, someone who can update his modeling with additional data as the fall starts to happen, but needed to be off the board as events start in motion.

2) The Anacreons plan was clearly to lure an imperial ship and shoot it down, which they've now achieved. It's sufficiently obvious that there's got to be a second layer to the plan and the best I've got at the moment is that they're framing the Foundation for shooting the ship down. The Cleon's immediately assumed the comm relay going dark was done by them after all, and it seems like a fitting first step of revenge for a people who think that's what happened to them - that Hari's followers were behind the attack and set them up to take the blame.

[David Selig]

21 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Plus, the plan seems to be to show the full span of the Foundation and the full 1,000-year history of the interregnum, which Asimov only got halfway through in the books.

I wonder how much of this plan will be realized. The show is certainly quite expensive to produce but it doesn't seem to have gotten much hype online. On Reddit there is way less talk about it than you'd expect about a big budget show based on a popular sci-fi classic. That AMA Goyer did had only 265 replies which is way less than you'd expect for such a show.

Edited October 15, 2021 by David Selig

[Werthead]

2 minutes ago, karaddin said:

My attempt to follow what's going on from this episode is that

1) Hari's plan was substantially more detailed than he let on and included his own martyrdom. That was probably an event that was going to happen regardless and earlier on his own terms results in less damage when it happens, so it's the reason Raych did it and why they apparently had this automated ship following along to pick her up. I guess Gaal is his contingency plan, someone who can update his modeling with additional data as the fall starts to happen, but needed to be off the board as events start in motion.

2) The Anacreons plan was clearly to lure an imperial ship and shoot it down, which they've now achieved. It's sufficiently obvious that there's got to be a second layer to the plan and the best I've got at the moment is that they're framing the Foundation for shooting the ship down. The Cleon's immediately assumed the comm relay going dark was done by them after all, and it seems like a fitting first step of revenge for a people who think that's what happened to them - that Hari's followers were behind the attack and set them up to take the blame.

I think the ship was meant to pick up Raych but he decided to switch his place with Gaal; likely an independent act that Seldon could not foresee. The ship kept saying it was programmed to follow Raych's commands, which was why Gaal couldn't make anything work.

For the second point, maybe, but the Anacreons seem to have immediately laid waste to the compound and taken out a bunch of the Foundation. Plus any witnesses to the crime will simply give their version of events, and I'm assuming the Empire has superior truth-detection abilities. I'm not sure what the Anacreon game is here.

Spoiler

In the books, Anacreon's scientific bodies have been eroded, making them technologically dependent on the Foundation. The Foundation exploits the Anacreons' spiritual gullibility to create a religion with themselves as a core part of it, and then uses that popular support to destroy the Anacreon political leadership when they try to wipe out the Foundation for good.

I'm not sure how that's translating here; maybe the Anacreons occupy Terminus or even take the entire Foundation population back to their homeworld to work as engineers for them, but that seems unlikely.  

Other key points from Goyer's Q&A:

• Asimov had several ideas for how the saga ends and told his daughter about them, which they are using to craft the endgame of the series.
• The show has been a big hit so far and Apple are very happy with things.
• The action scenes in this episode were a bit shit because they'd booked to film it after COVID began, so the big action sequences meant to be shot across many days with a huge number of extras were instead shot in a day and a half with 60 extras.
• TV Seldon is not above instigating events himself and then claiming psychohistory gave him the foreknowledge; he knew bringing Gaal to Trantor would trigger his arrest, so psychohistory had nothing to do with knowing that would happen but he knew he could enhance his mystique by suggesting it did.
• Foundation was proposed as an anthology series when it first did the rounds and all the studios said no, but they would consider it if it was more heavily serialised. That stopped them from following the books 1:1 almost immediately.
• Season 2 will primarily adapt the first half of Foundation and Empire from the sound of it, and the trader prince stories from the first book. Bel Riose will be a major character.
• Material from the prequels will appear later this season, and maybe in later seasons.
• Jared Harris dressed up as Jason from Halloween to entertain the kids of cast and crew during filming last October.

[Werthead]

15 minutes ago, David Selig said:

I wonder how much of this plan will be realized. The show is certainly quite expensive to produce but it doesn't seem to have gotten much hype online. On Reddit there is way less talk about it than you'd expect about a big budget show based on a popular sci-fi classic. That AMA Goyer did had only 265 replies which is way less than you'd expect for such a show.

Apple is still in a building phase and has picked up a lot of new subs from Ted Lasso, but it was starting from a very low base, so it's still not huge. The viewership needed for renewal is thus far lower than it would be for a show on Netflix or Amazon.

As for the budget, I've seen several reports that it's only $4.5 million per episode ($45 million for the season), which is at the upper end of a normal network show budget (it seems to be around what Superman & Lois on the CW has for a budget) and way below The Witcher ($7 million per episode in the first season) or Wheel of Time (~$12 million per episode). That's pretty much chicken feed these days.