Apple's TV show based on Asimov's FOUNDATION, starring Jared Harris

[Lord Patrek]

It's really odd. I mean, I'm bored out of my mind watching. But something forces me to watch what comes next.

Though I have to admit that I may well quit next week if nothing interesting really happens.

[karaddin]

I'm not sure how they could explore the fictional mathematics capable of predicting the future in a way that makes it not be a magical deus ex machina, when it is a magical D.E.M, in a tv show that's clearly expensive enough to need to find a large audience when the source material was unable to do it. You're asking the impossible there. Slow pace is already one of the chief complaints and that would have slammed the brakes on even harder in the first episode so we didn't even see the primary conflict start.

I also think the idea of rejecting characters is antithetical to getting an audience sufficiently large to justify the investment. And it's not like it's been a deep dive character study.

[Lord Patrek]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

And it's not like it's been a deep dive character study.

Thank God for that!

But too many minutes in each episode are wasted just showing cool special effects or exploring back stories in too much details. Given the already slow pace of the show, this slows everything to a crawl. I mean, 5 episodes in, they have barely covered the amount of material that most tv shows cover in something like 2 episodes.

Every little thing is somewhat overdone and the dialogue atrocious.

There is a compelling story buried beneath all that crap, one that's likely made better by the fact that they're not following the source material to the letter. But when Foundation gets cancelled, it will be because viewers will have quit, still not knowing what the show is supposed to be about after 20 episodes.

[Rippounet]

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm not sure how they could explore the fictional mathematics capable of predicting the future in a way that makes it not be a magical deus ex machina, when it is a magical D.E.M, in a tv show that's clearly expensive enough to need to find a large audience when the source material was unable to do it. You're asking the impossible there.

I really don't think so.

It wouldn't have been about the maths, but about the fact that psychohistory says the Empire is "overstretched." That can be shown.
What you need is a handful of characters in key positions, each showing a different aspect of the Empire's weaknesses.
- Economic: someone on a major mining planet looking at the numbers necessary to keep the supply to the inner planets flowing, and slowly realizing that the current production is not sustainable in the long-run. Have a bit of social unrest with the miners for good measure.
- Political: a key imperial diplomat realizing that the Empire doesn't scare local rulers as much as it used to, and sensing that imperial authority may not be respected in a crisis. Bonus points if the diplomat notices religious faith making a serious comeback in places, and the character sees how dangerous Luminism could become for the imperial creed.
- Military: something comparable to the above, with a general or admiral realizing that the Empire doesn't have the forces to deal with more than a handful of threats at the same time. Basically, a way to see why the imperial peace is so fragile.
You don't need that many characters to establish things, as long as they're each on a different planet. And you don't really need to flesh them out too much, because by the end of the first season they're likely to all be dead.

But if you take the time to have at least three extra characters at first, the Anacreon-Thespis crisis can be understood as a small event that, like many others, could nonetheless become an existential threat to the Empire.
It would also help see how disconnected the Emperor(s) are (they would probably dismiss the reports of our three extra characters).

And when the attack on the Starbridge happens and Cleon orders retaliation, the viewer would understand that this is a death sentence for the Empire. You'd have a logical chain of events thanks to what has been established from the start.
 

9 hours ago, karaddin said:

Slow pace is already one of the chief complaints and that would have slammed the brakes on even harder in the first episode so we didn't even see the primary conflict start.

The first episode would probably have been slower, yes, since several more characters would have been added.

Not so afterwards. As soon as the attack happens (in episode 2 or 3, I guess), the ripple effects throughout the Empire would have been fascinating. I don't think we're talking about anything boring here: unrest and uprisings on every planet, attacks on and assassinations of imperial officials, planetary governments crumbling, local wars starting... etc. Even the buildup could be entertaining if done right (this is the greatest empire ever, right before its fall after all).
And of course, the Emperor(s) would be blind to how bad the situation is and would keep committing more forces to preserving imperial influence instead of consolidating the core, thus hastening the fall.
By the fifth episode, nukes would be flying in places (we'd at least have one space battle), and the imperial navy would be overstretched, having to deal with dozens of simultaneous crises.
By the end of the season, the Empire would be in ruins. The First Foundation, after some struggles (including dealing with the death of Seldon) and soul-searching would only be starting to grow strong - but with no military, of course. And only at the very end of the season would Anacreon arise as a new power/threat on the fringes.
Hit the viewer with a timeskip and you can start the second season with the story of Salvor Hardin. And only around the end of the second season do you reveal that there are mentalics manipulating events behind the scenes as well. That way you're ready to introduce The Mule in season three.

Given the budget of this show, I really don't think it was inevitable that we would have these painfully long, artistic scenes building atmosphere and characterization. Their impact could have been achieved with a fraction of screentime. I don't think we needed to spend that much time with Gaal Dornick, and obviously I doubt Salvor Hardin belonged in the first season at all.

The sad reality is that so far this show is poorly written and, quite ironically given the source material, lacks ambition.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

The first episode would probably have been slower, yes, since several more characters would have been added.

Not so afterwards. As soon as the attack happens (in episode 2 or 3, I guess), the ripple effects throughout the Empire would have been fascinating. I don't think we're talking about anything boring here: unrest and uprisings on every planet, attacks on and assassinations of imperial officials, planetary governments crumbling, local wars starting... etc. Even the buildup could be entertaining if done right (this is the greatest empire ever, right before its fall after all).

I agree with this. It's a dying empire in turmoil. It's incredible that writers can't make that into something watchable.

If this story needs padding, pad it with with stories that are actually interesting. Develop all of these worlds and show the gradual effect pschohistory has on them pre-Mule. It allows you to develop the path for the rise of the Mule. And it doesn't feel like a Deus Ex Machina because it's from the perspective of those who feel the terrifying effect of psychohistory, as this small community exerts its power over everyone else. Terminus doesn't need to be center stage. Just follow the original material with Terminus.

Anyway, I haven't watched since episode 2, but it is fun to keep up with this thread. It was expected that Goyer would drop the ball here (adapting Foundation is not an easy task), but it's too bad all the same.

At least there's Dune!

Edited October 18, 2021 by IFR

[Lord Patrek]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

Given the budget of this show, I really don't think it was inevitable that we would have these painfully long, artistic scenes building atmosphere and characterization. Their impact could have been achieved with a fraction of screentime. I don't think we needed to spend that much time with Gaal Dornick, and obviously I doubt Salvor Hardin belonged in the first season at all.

The sad reality is that so far this show is poorly written and, quite ironically given the source material, lacks ambition.

The show in a nutshell.

[Winterfell is Burning]

This seems to suffer from the same problem GoT suffered, particularly after the earlier seasons, in showrunners assuming they're better writers than the author, making changes they think are cooler, but make the show less ambitious and making less sense at the same time.

[karaddin]

I think the approach suggested here could just as easily trigger that feeling even more so. If you're trying to cleverly show the oncoming collapse it's very hard to make it simultaneously actually clever but also sufficiently obvious to the majority of the audience. And if you fail at making it clever then you manage to look condescending as well as unintelligent.

And I think that half the people who would look to be making the same complaints as you would find it even worse.

Sorry if I'm sounding overly critical, I'm just getting really tired of fandoms acting like nearly the entire industry is incompetent. Obviously there are some incompetent people out there, some are even bad enough to get people to notice (D&D). But the amount of projects that have people tearing them apart is surely a sign of just how difficult it is to pull off what we want. Sometimes things just don't quite pull off what they're going for. And sometimes the guy/guys at the top are indeed hacks, but everyone underneath them are great and doing their best.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

This seems to suffer from the same problem GoT suffered, particularly after the earlier seasons, in showrunners assuming they're better writers than the author, making changes they think are cooler, but make the show less ambitious and making less sense at the same time.

I don't think that's the problem (well, it's a problem when it comes to adaptation in general). Martin wrote ASoIaF (especially AGoT) immediately after years spent working in Hollywood, and the books have plot beats, cadences and a structure that makes adapting them into TV very straightforward, including semi-regular cliffhangers.

Foundation doesn't have that, especially when the studio shot down the idea of an anthology format following the fragmented structure of the first three books more faithfully. The second you have to turn nine short stories and novellas with only limited recurring characters or plot beats, spanning 300 years, into a serialised top-tier TV show, you're going to have issues. And to be frank, Asimov's prose and characterisation isn't remotely on the same plane as GRRM's to start with, so the TV writers were always going to have a much bigger challenge ahead of them. And that's not even touching the 30-year gap in writing the series, after which he came back with a completely left-field idea for continuing the story that doesn't mesh well with what came before (and relies on a completely separate series of books which they don't have the rights to).

I'm more astonished that for a writer who's first professional credit was in 1990, Goyer is still such a clunky writer of dialogue.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Werthead

[David Selig]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I'm more astonished that for a writer who's first professional credit was in 1990, Goyer is still such a clunky writer of dialogue.

He's had a very successful career as a writer for decades, so why bother trying to change and improve? Plus the powers that be in Hollywood seem to like clunky dialogue since 90% of the movies they release have it in spades.

Edited October 18, 2021 by David Selig

[Winterfell is Burning]

50 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I don't think that's the problem (well, it's a problem when it comes to adaptation in general). Martin wrote ASoIaF (especially AGoT) immediately after years spent working in Hollywood, and the books have plot beats, cadences and a structure that makes adapting them into TV very straightforward, including semi-regular cliffhangers.

Foundation doesn't have that, especially when the studio shot down the idea of an anthology format following the fragmented structure of the first three books more faithfully. The second you have to turn nine short stories and novellas with only limited recurring characters or plot beats, spanning 300 years, into a serialised top-tier TV show, you're going to have issues. And to be frank, Asimov's prose and characterisation isn't remotely on the same plane as GRRM's to start with, so the TV writers were always going to have a much bigger challenge ahead of them. And that's not even touching the 30-year gap in writing the series, after which he came back with a completely left-field idea for continuing the story that doesn't mesh well with what came before (and relies on a completely separate series of books which they don't have the rights to).

I'm more astonished that for a writer who's first professional credit was in 1990, Goyer is still such a clunky writer of dialogue.

Oh, I'm well aware it's a difficult adaptation that require skilled writers, but there's a difference between making necessary changes to go to ones that are completely opposite to what's in the original story the point of rendering pointless (like Salvor "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Hardin becoming an action hero that is a "special one") just because you think it's cool.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Obviously there are some incompetent people out there, some are even bad enough to get people to notice (D&D). But the amount of projects that have people tearing them apart is surely a sign of just how difficult it is to pull off what we want. Sometimes things just don't quite pull off what they're going for. And sometimes the guy/guys at the top are indeed hacks, but everyone underneath them are great and doing their best.

Well, yeah, of course it's hard to make a broadly appealing show that also appeals to OG fandom. It's not impossible though. There are good adaptations out there, even ones that make significant changes to the original material. This show is not an example of a good adaptation.

What it comes down to is execution. Virtually any concept could work if the execution is right. Even the strange, meandering path Goyer chose for the show could have worked if the writing staff was a good writing staff.

Unfortunately Goyer demonstrates his reputation of mediocrity once again.

Edited October 18, 2021 by IFR
Can't resist taking potshots at Goyer. Nothing against the man personally, but he was a seriously poor choice for show runner here.

[Lord Patrek]

Goyer plans for about 80 episodes to tell the full story of what he envisioned, which adds up to 8 seasons.

Without mainstream appeal and losing SFF fans as the series progresses, I doubt that they can pull this off. There will be a season 2. 

Anything beyond that would shock me.

[Rippounet]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think the approach suggested here could just as easily trigger that feeling even more so.

I doubt it (did you miss me saying there would be nukes flying by episoed 5?). But even if you're right, there would have been a simple answer for unhappy viewers: "we're trying to give justice to Asimov's story rather than create another generic badass."

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Oh, I'm well aware it's a difficult adaptation that require skilled writers, but there's a difference between making necessary changes to go to ones that are completely opposite to what's in the original story the point of rendering pointless (like Salvor "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Hardin becoming an action hero that is a "special one") just because you think it's cool.

This.
Adapting Foundation was always going to be a challenge. But after five episodes, I feel it is doing things directly opposite to the source material.
The beginning of Foundation is really about how psychohistory makes individuals meaningless. So maybe, just maybe, it would have been nice not to start building two badass characters, one of which shouldn't even be there from the start. SMH.

15 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Goyer plans for about 80 episodes to tell the full story of what he envisioned, which adds up to 8 seasons.

80 ?
Fuck, that explains a lot.

[Ran]

 

2 hours ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

(like Salvor "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Hardin becoming an action hero that is a "special one")

I feel like the show's Salvor Hardin is being presented in situations where she's much younger and much more inexperienced than the Salvor Hardin of "The Encyclopediasts", presumably to justify the idea that she's going to start discovering her apparent mentalic abilities. So to me if Goyer's plan is to have the character grow and develop over time until that belief makes sense for the character, that's fine.

[Clueless Northman]

Apparently, they missed the part where there was no one with any psychic ability in the Terminus Foundation, on purpose, even though Seldon had planned all along the those with uber-mental powers would be the key to ensuring the swift rise of the 2nd galactic empire.

[Ran]

26 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

Apparently, they missed the part where there was no one with any psychic ability in the Terminus Foundation, on purpose, even though Seldon had planned all along the those with uber-mental powers would be the key to ensuring the swift rise of the 2nd galactic empire.

I mean, obviously they made a choice to have Hardin be this outlier to foreshadow it all a bit earlier. Also, if the reason she is a mentalic is due to her descent from Gaal Dornick, well, Gaal was important to the Terminus part of the plan -- he couldn't well forbid her to procreate or tell her she was going somewhere else when the Foundation would need her psychohistorical abilities.

It's a change, but reasonable given the fact that they have the structure and format that they do, and the work they are adapting is what it is.

 

[Werthead]

Interestingly, no mention at all of the

Spoiler

Second Foundation

so far, despite it coming up pretty early in the books IIRC.

[karaddin]

Well that one didn't feel slow to me. Only substantial complaint I'd have was that the fight at the Anacreon ships felt very gamey in multiple ways - the distances were absurdly close with the guards not noticing them while they're 30 meters away in clear sight, like mobs in a MMO, the sniper player character taking out a whole bunch of guards while none of them snipe back, and the cut scene that resolves the situation tragically for the player character.

Also Brother Lee Pace got played like a fiddle, but that's not a criticism of the show lol, just of Brother Day failing after talking a big talk to Brother Dusk before he left.

I actually thought the hunting trip was a nice little foreshadow of the colour blindness just before explicitly revealing it. Not sure what role that's going to play long term, but it seems certain to be relevant at least indirectly (ie he's been modified, perhaps by Demerzal?) if not directly. It also recontextualises his destruction of the mural - it wasn't about what he said in that scene, it's that it would have given away his colour blindness.

We possibly have the details of the Anacreon plan now, but I still don't think it's the whole picture - just one part, and I still think it's a stitch up as well as what we're seeing.

[Werthead]

Yeah, that was solid, even if there's a bit of "running around, getting captured, escaping, blowing something up, getting captured" to Salvor's story, like a 1970s episode of Doctor Who. The stuff with the Emperor was great though.

Interesting nod to Prelude to Foundation (how Raych met Seldon). And I have to say that "starring Jared Harris" is pushing it a bit. So far he could have filmed all his scenes for the show on the same afternoon.