Apple's TV show based on Asimov's FOUNDATION, starring Jared Harris

[mormont]

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

And I have to say that "starring Jared Harris" is pushing it a bit. So far he could have filmed all his scenes for the show on the same afternoon.

At this stage having Harris on screen more is about the only thing that could get me to watch again, so this is not a good indicator.

[Lord Patrek]

11 hours ago, Werthead said:

And I have to say that "starring Jared Harris" is pushing it a bit. So far he could have filmed all his scenes for the show on the same afternoon.

It's not like the show is brimming with quality actors that can put asses in the seats. . .

[Spockydog]

7 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

It's not like the show is brimming with quality actors that can put asses in the seats. . .

Yeah, I have to say that the overall quality of the acting is ... not good.

[Werthead]

10 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

It's not like the show is brimming with quality actors that can put asses in the seats. . .

Lee Pace, Terrence Mann and Clarke Peters are all outstanding actors who've done pretty well in this. Of the two main leads, Lou Llobell is pretty solid as Gaal but she's not been in it as much as you'd expect either. Leah Harvey as Salvor is fine given her inexperience, but her weak point seems to be her accent. Not sure why they let Llobell use her English accent (she was born in Spain but is based in the UK) but made Harvey use an American accent which she really seems uncomfortable with.

Surprised they haven't brought back Reece Shearsmith as the Imperial Agent from the first episode. He was enjoyably creepy (which is kind of his career thing).

[Lord Patrek]

None of the actors you mentioned have a following that actually bring people to watch this series, though.

Llobell is the only bright light on the show. She manages to shine despite the mediocre scripts and dialogue. Harvey is fucking awful, however. When you gender-swap and race-swap a protagonist, you'd expect the casting to be stellar. And yet, Harvey is unable to lend any credibility to her character. Which is why, in my humble opinion, that most of the Terminus sequences suck to such a degree. As a matter of course, it doesn't help that the storylines and her dialogue are shit. But unlike Llobell, who's able to make the most of a shitty hand, Harvey just looks bad in every single scene she's in.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Acting will not save this series.

[Werthead]

10 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

None of the actors you mentioned have a following that actually bring people to watch this series, though.

Not in their millions, probably not, but Lee Pace has a very avid and passionate fan following. The guy is like a walking meme factory by himself.

Jared Harris is also hugely popular now post-Chernobyl, so probably hooked a large number of people into watching, even if he's barely been in it so far.

[Lord Patrek]

Hmmm, Adam. That's what we're saying about Harris. . .

[Scott_N]

Terrible show in every way except visually. Worst of all is its dialogue because it is so consistently appalling but the Anacreons come close; they look and talk as if it is a spoof of the worst kind of low-brow sci-fi. Then that absolutely ridicolous armor... the whole thing is laughable.

The only story-arc I have the slightest interest in is the emperors (though Lee Pace playing Joe MacMillan makes me think Lee Pace is simply being Lee Pace).

[Annara Snow]

8 hours ago, Scott_N said:

 

The only story-arc I have the slightest interest in is the emperors (though Lee Pace playing Joe MacMillan makes me think Lee Pace is simply being Lee Pace).

Seeing Lee Pace in Pushing Daisies, Wonderfalls and in Halt and Catch Fire, I couldn't believe it was the same guy. I've seen him in several very different things and he is so good at becoming whichever character he plays, in spite of having a remarkable physicality and presence. That said, over the last decade he seems to have become a go-to-guy when casting directors are looking for someone to play powerful men with a commanding presence, in a somewhat threatening but sexy way - be it an Elven King, Galactic Emperor, or - well, Joe MacMillan didn't have power in that sense, but he made up for it with a powerful personality.

As for the show, funny how much it is being trashed here - I'm now curious to see  what the reactions to Dune will be. I saw it last night in the cinema and I found it to be completely meh. I haven't read the source material in either case, so I was going blind except for a few of the most basic ideas (everyone knows about the space worms...). And I couldn't help comparing the two.

Foundation the TV show >>>>>>> Dune the movie

Yes,  yes, I know a TV show has more time, but 2 and a half hours is almost the same screentime as 3 episodes of a TV show.

The Dune movie fails badly at explaining its worldbuilding. There were multiple things I was confused about and had to ask about after the movie, and other things I had no idea about until I was told about them afterwards (I watched it with a friend who has read Dune and is a fan). He was also critical of it and agreed they failed to get a lot of things across. Whereas I've never been confused like that aany point during Foundation, it got everything across re: the worldbuilding and the ideas and themes - and it's made these ideas and themes interesting to me, which Dune has failed to do. (Now, I don't know how much the difference in this aspect lies in the adaptations and how much in the books.)

And even in the aspect that's relatively the weakest in Foundation- characters - it still easy trumps Dune, where I didn't find anyone particularly interesting or conpelling.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Annara Snow

[Clueless Northman]

With Foundation, no book fan will be able to explain you something you might not understand, since it's mostly fan-fiction, so the TV series definitely has an advantage over the Dune movie  Of course, if you read the Asimov books, you're going to be terribly confused.

[Annara Snow]

35 minutes ago, Clueless Northman said:

With Foundation, no book fan will be able to explain you something you might not understand, since it's mostly fan-fiction, so the TV series definitely has an advantage over the Dune movie  Of course, if you read the Asimov books, you're going to be terribly confused.

It has the advantage that it hasn't made me confused, it has done a good job explaining its own mythology. I'm obviously not discussing it as an adaptation, since I wouldn't know how, but as a show in itself.

[Spockydog]

Wrong thread. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Spockydog

[Lord Patrek]

Foundation just became Star Wars, and it sucks.

Article on io9.

[Annara Snow]

37 minutes ago, Lord Patrek said:

Foundation just became Star Wars, and it sucks.

Article on io9.

The top comment:

Quote

 

I’ve not read the books (and I’m a few episodes behind on the show), but if this...
“The thing threatening the galaxy isn’t an army of bad guys with guns, it’s social corruption and decay.”
...is true, why on earth does Seldon and his Foundation place so much importance on preserving as much human knowledge as possible, right down to number systems and basic engineering? Social decay does not lead to forgetting science. It might lead to science being ignored, but the science is still there — showing up with a big box of science isn’t going to make the luddites suddenly pay attention to it again.

But then I still can’t work out why the fall of the Empire would result in such a terrible Dark Age in the first place. I would, however, expect many wars between the various fiefdoms that try to grab power in its wake, but I don’t see how that results in a galaxy-wide reversion to cavedweller status for several millennia (unless everyone’s got superweapons leading to mutually assured destruction, but if this article is to be believed that doesn’t fit with the principles of the Foundation series).

 

Excellent questions.

The TV show's Hari Seldon hasn't exactly explained the particulars of what's supposed to happen, and that's a probably a good thing, if the reasons are supposed to be that dumb. Without it, I was able to imagine that there really would be somehow some great catastrophe that would be terrible for the humankind.

  Someone else in the comments replying that it's based on the fall of the Roman Empire and the ensuing "Dark Ages" doesn't make it any better, since the Dark Ages being this terrible time with no knowledge or civilization is just a myth. (Yes, the Roman Empire parallels are very unsubtle, but it's better not to go too far with them. If the only terrible thing is supposed to be that they have an equivalent of the European Middle Ages, then meh, there's little reason for concern.)

Edited October 24, 2021 by Annara Snow

[IFR]

4 hours ago, Annara Snow said:

As for the show, funny how much it is being trashed here - I'm now curious to see  what the reactions to Dune will be. I saw it last night in the cinema and I found it to be completely meh. I haven't read the source material in either case, so I was going blind except for a few of the most basic ideas (everyone knows about the space worms...). And I couldn't help comparing the two.

My experience for both is as a reader of the original material.

For me, the Dune experience was seeing a good plot minimalized for the best visual and atmospheric representation of the story. It was a beautiful movie and a good experience. The movie is very loyal to the book.

The Foundation experience is like seeing season 8 of Game of Thrones. A great deal of potential squandered for insultingly bad writing. Even in a vacuum and apart from the original material, Foundation the show is low-brow and pedestrian storytelling. The characters are uninteresting, and the plot is often nonsensical. It is aggressively mediocre, regardless of its pretty CG package. When taking the wonderful original material into consideration, the show really is like having salt rubbed into a wound.

[David Selig]

9 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Excellent questions.

The TV show's Hari Seldon hasn't exactly explained the particulars of what's supposed to happen, and that's a probably a good thing, if the reasons are supposed to be that dumb. Without it, I was able to imagine that there really would be somehow some great catastrophe that would be terrible for the humankind.

Glossing over this is one of the few good things about the show. The explanation in the books for the reasons for the fall of civilization and reverting to barbarism is completely nonsensical and becomes ever more nonsensical the more Asimov tried to explain it in the prequels.

Anyway, the last episode was a bit better because at least some stuff happened, but it was still pretty bad. Hardin being a master sniper and killing bunch of mooks in two minutes flat out felt like Goyer was deliberately trolling the viewers who have read the novels. And they didn't even bother to cast older actors for the parts of the specialists the Anacreonians wanted to kidnap, so judging by their looks they must have been about 15 years old when they were chief engineers on the ship that took the Foundation colonists to Terminus.

[Annara Snow]

21 minutes ago, IFR said:

My experience for both is as a reader of the original material.

For me, the Dune experience was seeing a good plot minimalized for the best visual and atmospheric representation of the story. It was a beautiful movie and a good experience. The movie is very loyal to the book.

The Foundation experience is like seeing season 8 of Game of Thrones. A great deal of potential squandered for insultingly bad writing. Even in a vacuum and apart from the original material, Foundation the show is low-brow and pedestrian storytelling. The characters are uninteresting, and the plot is often nonsensical. It is aggressively mediocre, regardless of its pretty CG package. When taking the wonderful original material into consideration, the show really is like having salt rubbed into a wound.

Do you mean like seasons 5-8 of Game of Thrones, plus quite a chunk of seasons 2-4 and even small parts of season 1?

For all the complaining about Foundation, a lot of the people on this forum and most TV critics seemed remarkably forgiving of all the insultingly bad writing, low-brown and pedestrian storytelling on GoT and all the changes D&D made to the characters and themes to suit their dudebro tastes (while 'adapting' a book series that was extremely filmable and exciting to begin with and didn't need to be changed nearly as much). Which makes me kinda not particularly prone to trusting their judgment.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Annara Snow

[IFR]

18 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Do you mean like seasons 5-8 of Game of Thrones, plus quite a chunk of seasons 2-4 and even small parts of season 1

No, I mean season 8. Earlier than that, I thought there were some missteps in GoT, and they certainly increased with season 6 and 7, but season 8 was comparable to Foundation the show.

18 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

For all the complaining about Foundation, a lot of the people on this forum and most TV critics seemed remarkably forgiving of all the insultingly bad writing, low-brown and pedestrian storytelling on GoT and all the changes D&D made to the characters and themes to suit their dudebro tastes (while 'adapting' a book series that was extremely filmable and exciting to begin with and didn't need to be changed nearly as much). Which makes me kinda not particularly prone to trusting their judgment.

Critics and most of the audience clearly didn't think much of Game of Thrones was bad writing. It was a worldwide phenomenon, and it was one of the most critically lauded series ever. Most Emmys, for a prime time show, etc. It once was the highest rated non-documentary show on imdb. People clearly thought it was a well done show.

So when that stopped being the case, people made their displeasure known on that count, which was when season 8 arrived.

I looked through some of the threads on the show on this forum, and I think the boarders here were unusually harsh in their judgment. Certainly more so than most audience members or critics.

I thought the first 4 seasons of Game of Thrones were impeccable, seasons 5-6 mostly excellent, season 7 was a mixture of highs and lows, and season 8 was a disaster. That is my opinion.

Clearly your opinion differs, which is fine. Neither of us are absolute authorities on what must constitute adequate entertainment for everyone. Enjoy what you can, and if you can't, then there's plenty of other works out there. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by IFR

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, IFR said:

No, I mean season 8. Earlier than that, I thought there were some missteps in GoT, and they certainly increased with season 6 and 7, but season 8 was comparable to Foundation the show.

Critics and most of the audience clearly didn't think much of Game of Thrones was bad writing. It was a worldwide phenomenon, and it was one of the most critically lauded series ever. Most Emmys, for a prime time show, etc. It once was the highest rated non-documentary show on imdb. People clearly thought it was a well done show.

So when that stopped being the case, people made their displeasure known on that count, which was when season 8 arrived.

I looked through some of the threads on the show on this forum, and I think the boarders here were unusually harsh in their judgment. Certainly more so than most audience members or critics.

I thought the first 4 seasons of Game of Thrones were impeccable, seasons 5-6 mostly excellent, season 7 was a mixture of highs and lows, and season 8 was a disaster. That is my opinion.

Clearly your opinion differs, which is fine. Neither of us are absolute authorities on what must constitute adequate entertainment for everyone. Enjoy what you can, and if you can't, then there's plenty of other works out there. 

There is no need to tell me that GoT was incredibly popular, that's common knowledge, or that it won a bunch of Emmys - for its worst seasons, as a matter of fact (including season 8, lest we forget), which is especially unlikely to impress me, as I've stopped raking Emmys seriously a long time ago; or that it got mollycoddled by most of the reviewers - I just said so myself. (My favorite is a reviewer who wrote, I think during season 7, something to the effect of: "Sure, a lot of this doesn't make sense, but it's still the best show on TV, because it's so much fun!") I also don't tend to put too much stock in reviewers as especially qualified since a lot of reviews of various shows on websites like AV Club, ScreenRant, Decide, Tor and so on have been super lazy  and sometimes even included factual errors like getting timelines or character identities wrong. (Speaking of Foundation, that's happened recently with the Decider review of episode 3.) 

As for this forum, well, I never said all or most posters were praising GoT before S8. It was divided. Some posters criticized GoT, especially since season 5 when a lot of people broke up with the show, so to speak, others defended and insisted it was still great. The Rant and Rave threads were the only ones where people were allowed to just complain and criticize - everywhere else, there was always debate and divided opinions.(I remember when one poster started ranting against someone for putting GoT season 7 relatively low on their annual list in the annual Rank Your Shows thread and was outraged that they dared put some other shows that year higher.)

Naturally, as we have different opinions on the quality of the show, you would say that the forum, or a lot of posters, were too harsh on the show; I would say that it was a mix of people who were just as harsh as the show deserved and people who defended the show and i - so I guess the harsher than a lot of other places, true, but also less harsh than some other websites and bloggers, even though they were in the minority at the time.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Annara Snow

[Lord Patrek]

In my humble opinion, Seasons 1 to 4 of GoT was some of the best stuff on television. It strated going down the crapper in season 5 (when the showrunners elected to steer clear of the source material), then straight into shit for seasons 6 and 7. Season 8 is so bad, I'm almost speechless as to how to explain it.

GoT had a great beginning and was able to garner extreme momentum with the first 4 seasons. Foundation is already floundering and we haven't reached the end of season 1. For fuck's sake, I'm not even sure I want to watch till then.