Wylla was Lewyn Martell's paramour [CRACKPOT]

[Bael's Bastard]

I admittedly haven't put a lot of thought into the details, but I find the idea that Wylla and Lewyn Martell's paramour are one and the same to be an interesting possibility.

What do you think?

[FictionIsntReal]

He was a Kingsguard, so his paramour would have presumably been in King's Landing. All we know of Wylla is that she long served as a wetnurse at Starfall. It's not impossible that she moved from King's Landing to Starfall, but we have no evidence of her ever having been in the former.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't know that it's Wylla. I think the woman sounds like she might have been a noble.

Actually, I've got a weird thought about this paramour who would have lived in King's Landing and I'm assuming would have been loyal to the Martells.

Would have Varys have used her to hide Aegon until he was able to smuggle him out of King's Landing?

[Bael's Bastard]

2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He was a Kingsguard, so his paramour would have presumably been in King's Landing. All we know of Wylla is that she long served as a wetnurse at Starfall. It's not impossible that she moved from King's Landing to Starfall, but we have no evidence of her ever having been in the former.

Not necessarily.

We found out in TWOIAF that Elia and Rhaegar chose to live on Dragonstone, rather than King's Landing. We also found out that the Dornishmen that came to court with Elia were among the small group of people that were in Rhaegar's confidence, with Lewyn being singled out in particular.

We know that Ashara Dayne came to court with Elia as one of her companions/ladies, and it seems likely that there were other Dornishwomen that came to court with Elia. Wylla could have been one of them.

We have reason to believe that Wylla was at Starfall by around 287, when Edric Dayne was born, but that doesn't tell us where she was in 280 when Elia and Rhaegar wed, or in 283 during Robert's Rebellion.

We have no evidence of where she was or wasn't 6-7 years before Edric was born. But IMO this theory might make sense of where this potentially Dornish Wylla came from.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know that it's Wylla. I think the woman sounds like she might have been a noble.

Actually, I've got a weird thought about this paramour who would have lived in King's Landing and I'm assuming would have been loyal to the Martells.

Would have Varys have used her to hide Aegon until he was able to smuggle him out of King's Landing?

Wylla could be from a noble House for all we know. Obviously the name isn't exclusively Dornish, but the other Dornish Wylla we know of was from House Wyl, located on the same river Wyl that crosses the Boneway Lewyn led the Dornish troops out of, and which also happens to flow somewhat close to the TOJ. For all we know, Wylla could have been a Dornishwoman who came to court/Dragonstone with Elia, together with Ashara Dayne.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

21 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I admittedly haven't put a lot of thought into the details, but I find the idea that Wylla and Lewyn Martell's paramour are one and the same to be an interesting possibility.

What do you think?

Wylla took the disgrace that would have been Lady Ashara's for having Brandon's bastard.  I don't think she would be the lady love of Lewyn.  He had little control over his time and location.  He was stationed to guard Aerys and would not have the choice to leave without permission from the White Bull or Aerys himself. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

21 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Wylla could be from a noble House for all we know. Obviously the name isn't exclusively Dornish, but the other Dornish Wylla we know of was from House Wyl, located on the same river Wyl that crosses the Boneway Lewyn led the Dornish troops out of, and which also happens to flow somewhat close to the TOJ. For all we know, Wylla could have been a Dornishwoman who came to court/Dragonstone with Elia, together with Ashara Dayne.

Let's put it this way. I'm more willing to bet my gold on Wylla being Garin's mother than her being Lewyn's paramour.

But the paramour being one of Elia's ladies is a valid point.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 10/26/2019 at 5:35 PM, King of Heroes said:

Wylla took the disgrace that would have been Lady Ashara's for having Brandon's bastard.  I don't think she would be the lady love of Lewyn.  He had little control over his time and location.  He was stationed to guard Aerys and would not have the choice to leave without permission from the White Bull or Aerys himself. 

Wylla is explicitly associated with Jon Snow by at least two separate sources. She isn't associated with Ashara's child or any hypothetical child of Brandon.

Wylla is associated with Star Fall from being the milk mother of Edric Dayne in around 287, but it's unclear how far back her service to Star Fall began, let alone her origins.

If TWOIAF is correct, Lewyn Martell came to court with his niece Elia when she wed Prince Rhaegar in 280. He joined the Kingsguard as a man who was not young, who had tasted life, and was vowing to give up some of those things.

It's not inconceivable that Lewyn brought an existing paramour, a long time lover he had no intention of parting from, with him from Dorne to King's Landing and Dragonstone.

Arthur Dayne and Lewyn are noted to have been in Rhaegar's inner circle of confidants, and it's possible both were most often attached to Rhaegar and Elia as their sword shields, spending most of their time on Dragonstone, or wherever Rhaegar and Elia were.

Most importantly, if Lewyn was coming as Elia's sworn shield, he expected to be close to her at virtually all times. Lewyn and his paramour wouldn't have been crazy to think that they could continue to see each other regularly if she came as one of Elia's ladies.

Arthur's sister Ashara also came to King's Landing and Dragonstone with Elia when she wed Rhaegar, and IMO, it's not inconceivable that Lewyn brought a paramour with him from Dorne, to continue their relationship in King's Landing and Dragonstone.

What other presumably Dornish women do we know of that were already child bearing age in 283, who are still alive today? Maybe Lewyn's paramour hasn't been previously named, but if she has, I think Wylla is an interesting possibility.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 10/27/2019 at 8:29 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Let's put it this way. I'm more willing to bet my gold on Wylla being Garin's mother than her being Lewyn's paramour.

But the paramour being one of Elia's ladies is a valid point.

Wylla being Lewyn's paramour, and a companion to Elia, could help explain how she eventually came to be associated with Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, whether she was the mother of Garin, a daughter of House Wyl, or of some other Dornish origin.

I prefer the idea that Wylla was from House Wyl, because it could help explain how they entered Dorne, and how they traveled to the tower of joy. House Wyl commands the river that flows closest to the tower of joy.

[eazy]

Lady Olenna Redwyne/Tyrell was his Paramour. It is known. 

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, eazy said:

Lady Olenna Redwyne/Tyrell was his Paramour. It is known. 

The idea that the very high born widow of the former Lord of Highgarden, mother of the then current Lord of Highgarden, and grandmother of the already born future Lord of Highgarden, spent any amount of the years between Elia's marriage to Rhaegar in 280 and the Battle of the Trident in 283 as a paramour to Lewyn Martell in King's Landing and/or Dragonstone, stretches credulity.

[eazy]

18 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The idea that the very high born widow of the former Lord of Highgarden, mother of the then current Lord of Highgarden, and grandmother of the already born future Lord of Highgarden, spent any amount of the years between Elia's marriage to Rhaegar in 280 and the Battle of the Trident in 283 as a paramour to Lewyn Martell in King's Landing and/or Dragonstone, stretches credulity.

please see the thread below. I think the OP did great job with this theory and I personally buy it. 

 

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, eazy said:

please see the thread below. I think the OP did great job with this theory and I personally buy it. 

 

They make a lot of assumptions without textual support that I find to be unlikely and unconvincing.

It is unclear when the Princess of Dorne and Lewyn were born. I don't even know that we know that Lewyn was the Princess of Dorne's brother rather than her husband's, who house we don't know. It seems likely that the Princess was at least 16 when she had Doran, but who knows? And we certainly can't extrapolate Lewyn's age from that.

And whether he was the brother of the Princess or her consort, Lewyn could be considerably younger than his elder sibling, as Doran's next closest surviving sibling, Elia, was almost a decade younger than him. To say that he and Olenna were comparable in age isn't certain. Not that Lewyn and his paramour need be of comparable age anyway.

The bigger issue is there isn't any apparent reason that Lewyn and Olenna would have known each other.

Olenna was from the Reach, betrothed to a Targaryen from the time she was a girl into adulthood, then wed the Tyrell heir/lord. Even if she had spent some of her childhood in KL prior to the breaking of her betrothal, by no means a certainty, that would have been long before we can place Lewyn, or even the Princess of Dorne, in KL.

If TWOIAF is accurate, Lewyn is implied to have come to court with Elia, and presumably joined the KG, when she was to wed Rhaegar. As they were betrothed in 279 and wed in 280, that would have been only a few short years before Robert's Rebellion, long after Olenna already had children and grandchildren.

"Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard."

If Jaime doesn't mentioned Lewyn having a paramour, that doesn't mean he didn't know. Lewyn's paramour is clearly indicated to have been kept while he was a KG. Not to say she wasn't already his paramour before he became a KG, but he is implied to have kept the paramour throughout his service, and Jaime isn't likely to have been any more ignorant of that than Selmy.

I find the idea of Lewyn's paramour being such a famous high born Lady, with Tyrell children and grandchildren, to be highly unlikely. 

[rotting sea cow]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:35 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

I admittedly haven't put a lot of thought into the details, but I find the idea that Wylla and Lewyn Martell's paramour are one and the same to be an interesting possibility.

What do you think?

Nah'

Lewyn's paramour is now known as Septa Lemore, it is known

[eazy]

14 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

They make a lot of assumptions without textual support that I find to be unlikely and unconvincing.

It is unclear when the Princess of Dorne and Lewyn were born. I don't even know that we know that Lewyn was the Princess of Dorne's brother rather than her husband's, who house we don't know. It seems likely that the Princess was at least 16 when she had Doran, but who knows? And we certainly can't extrapolate Lewyn's age from that.

And whether he was the brother of the Princess or her consort, Lewyn could be considerably younger than his elder sibling, as Doran's next closest surviving sibling, Elia, was almost a decade younger than him. To say that he and Olenna were comparable in age isn't certain. Not that Lewyn and his paramour need be of comparable age anyway.

The bigger issue is there isn't any apparent reason that Lewyn and Olenna would have known each other.

Olenna was from the Reach, betrothed to a Targaryen from the time she was a girl into adulthood, then wed the Tyrell heir/lord. Even if she had spent some of her childhood in KL prior to the breaking of her betrothal, by no means a certainty, that would have been long before we can place Lewyn, or even the Princess of Dorne, in KL.

If TWOIAF is accurate, Lewyn is implied to have come to court with Elia, and presumably joined the KG, when she was to wed Rhaegar. As they were betrothed in 279 and wed in 280, that would have been only a few short years before Robert's Rebellion, long after Olenna already had children and grandchildren.

"Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard."

If Jaime doesn't mentioned Lewyn having a paramour, that doesn't mean he didn't know. Lewyn's paramour is clearly indicated to have been kept while he was a KG. Not to say she wasn't already his paramour before he became a KG, but he is implied to have kept the paramour throughout his service, and Jaime isn't likely to have been any more ignorant of that than Selmy.

I find the idea of Lewyn's paramour being such a famous high born Lady, with Tyrell children and grandchildren, to be highly unlikely. 

First of, I really admire that you went through the link I provided I thought maybe it could change your mind, as for me the thread was well-constructed. 

I respect your opinion about the Paramour being Wylla. There is absolutely no evidence to support it, but if that is your feeling, I am totally fine. The guess is as good as any. I doubt it will ever be revealed for us who the lady really was, so I see her identity as this kind of detail that is decided by every individual reader. In my story it is Olenna Tyrell, untill proven (or disproven) otherwise.

Do I have any evidence to support it? No, just gut feeling and wild guesses based on what we know from the text. 

I agree with you, that a lot of assumptions are made in the cited thread and also that at least some of them are really far-fetched. Truth is, we do not have enough information to really determine the identity of his paramour and all of the theories regarding it are covered with assumptions and guesses (often very wild guesses). 

For example, you say that is no reason to believe that Lewyn and Olenna knew each other and I think there is no reason to believe that they did not know each other. Lewyn could have been fostered in Highgarden, maybe spend some time in Old Town in his youth (like Oberyn). We know so little about their past and whereabouts that there is clearly enough space for them to be involved with each other. Of course Lewyn would not "keep" her personally in KL, but if their relationship lasted that long, it obviously must have been kept a secret. 

If you assume that Lewyn took his paramour from Dorne to KL and base the further deduction on that, it is clear that Olenna does not fit. 

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Nah'

Lewyn's paramour is now known as Septa Lemore, it is known

Septa Lemore is actually my guess nr 2, right after Olenna. 

 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 10/26/2019 at 9:49 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

We know that Ashara Dayne came to court with Elia as one of her companions/ladies, and it seems likely that there were other Dornishwomen that came to court with Elia. Wylla could have been one of them.

A princess/queen-to-be will have noble ladies as companions. Wetnurses are smallfolk.

On 10/26/2019 at 10:04 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

Wylla could be from a noble House for all we know. Obviously the name isn't exclusively Dornish, but the other Dornish Wylla we know of was from House Wyl, located on the same river Wyl that crosses the Boneway Lewyn led the Dornish troops out of, and which also happens to flow somewhat close to the TOJ. For all we know, Wylla could have been a Dornishwoman who came to court/Dragonstone with Elia, together with Ashara Dayne.

People take noble houses seriously, but nobody refers to her with a surname. Plus, as I said, wetnursing is a job for smallfolk, not the nobility.