Is Jon Already a King in the books? Aka What makes a King?

[Narsil4]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Rhaego died before Drogo

I think Drogo died first and the horse sacrifice only animated his soulless husk. 

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Ah ok, I didn't realize that was so strict. I edited my post. 

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

I think Drogo died first and the horse sacrifice only animated his soulless husk. 

May I ask why you think Drogo was already dead? There’s nothing in the text to suggest that IMO. And there’s also the fact that Dany killed him fairly easily later on, and the reanimated dead don’t die so easily. 

21 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Ah ok, I didn't realize that was so strict. I edited my post. 

Thanks. 

[Narsil4]

53 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

May I ask why you think Drogo was already dead? There’s nothing in the text to suggest that IMO. And there’s also the fact that Dany killed him fairly easily later on, and the reanimated dead don’t die so easily.

I think he was dead in the sense that his soul had left his body and been infused into the black egg to give it life.

Which I suspect was why MMD wasn't able to bring him back in a conscious state. Essentially just being animated by the horse without Drogo's essence. 

It may take human souls rather than horse souls to create the other kinds of undead that seem to exist. 

Similarly I think Rhaego's dragon-like form suggests a similar thing happening between him and the green egg. 

MMD basically just being the sacrifice for the final hatching process. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I don't have a whole lot to add but I have often wondered about this also. 

What makes a King? There has to be some set of skills or rules that consitute someone being a King else Mel could find her King's blood just by saying someone is a King & then killing them right? 

I think Jon is most definitely a King. He may be a King that is never called such but a King none-the-less. 

I'm not as into the word play as @Seams but there is definitely something interesting there - Wall King. I like it. 

Nice topic OP! 

[kissdbyfire]

48 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What makes a King? There has to be some set of skills or rules that consitute someone being a King else Mel could find her King's blood just by saying someone is a King & then killing them right? 

Yeah, it is an interesting question. And Martin isn’t going to give us an easy and straightforward answer. 

Someone possessing certain skills or traits may be a part of it. But these skills and traits will vary a great deal, depending on the people this monarch  is supposed to rule, right? For instance, if you’re to rule over the Dothraki, these skills would have to include being a fierce conquering warrior (to put it nicely). Other peoples might wish for a different set of skills/traits. So, I’m not so sure it’s as simple as that. 

I think above all else it’s whether the people in question see this person as a ruler or leader. And if they do, a coronation is not necessary; being born the son or daughter of kings and queens won’t matter either. That’s why (IMO) Jon is the king of the FF, and Dany is the queen of the freed peoples in Meereen. Now, how each will handle this remains to be seen. 

[BalerionTheCat]

Jon is the PtwP. If anyone has gods' endorsement, it's him.

For people following his decision, he is already the king... according to your loose definition.

If he manages to bring unity where there is currently division (and there is no other salvation from the Others), he will be the king of everyone. Not an absolute monarch like the Targaryens I hope.

[Elegant Woes]

3 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jon is the PtwP. If anyone has gods' endorsement, it's him.

I don't think he is, because like you said, Jon is only referred to as king, never as a prince. You know which major character is repeatedly called a prince? Bran. It's his narrative that is tied to the magical storyline the most. It makes sense that he's the one who will save the world from the Great Other. Jon will probably play a role in the Battle for Dawn (same goes to Arya btw), but at the end of the day it's Bran who will usher in Spring on the magical level. Jon is more likely to do it on the political side. 

[Lord Varys]

You are a king in the Seven Kingdoms if you are proclaimed, crowned, and anointed (the latter is only a prerequisite for kings who want to rule over the Andals). Since Jon Snow is neither, he is no king in that sense, yet.

Kings who are only proclaimed are, at best, pretenders.

The kings-beyond-the-Wall have an even more severe regimen to go through - they have to win the allegiance of (essentially) all relevant clan chiefs and war lords beyond the Wall - which Jon Snow doesn't even remotely have at this point. Tormund brought him but a fraction of Mance's huge host - and Mance isn't even dead, yet.

Not to mention that you cannot be a king without actually calling yourself a king. This is not an informal honor or office.

Finally, the whole question what makes a king is not really the theme of those books. The author is not a monarchist, he does not write to depict ideal kingship or the ideal king.

[James West]

7 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Jon is the PtwP. If anyone has gods' endorsement, it's him.

For people following his decision, he is already the king... according to your loose definition.

If he manages to bring unity where there is currently division (and there is no other salvation from the Others), he will be the king of everyone. Not an absolute monarch like the Targaryens I hope.

I doubt he is that.  He's a Stark bastard.  God would have to be a dumb SOB to endorse the guy who betrayed the NW.  Oh wait, maybe you meant the Great Other, the god of the white walkers.  That deity might think him cool for causing the division at the wall.

[BalerionTheCat]

16 hours ago, Steve Womack said:

I doubt he is that.  He's a Stark bastard.  God would have to be a dumb SOB to endorse the guy who betrayed the NW.  Oh wait, maybe you meant the Great Other, the god of the white walkers.  That deity might think him cool for causing the division at the wall.

You mean the guys who wanted the Free Folk dead the other side of the Wall? They too are followers of the Old Gods.
You mean the guys who supported Ramsay Snow, another bastard, a rapist and a flayer?

The real purpose of the Wall and the oaths has been lost over time. But I doubt it is to serve the kings of Westeros.
The walls of a castle are generally to protect not only those living within. But also those living around it.

[BalerionTheCat]

22 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't think he is, because like you said, Jon is only referred to as king, never as a prince. You know which major character is repeatedly called a prince? Bran. It's his narrative that is tied to the magical storyline the most. It makes sense that he's the one who will save the world from the Great Other. Jon will probably play a role in the Battle for Dawn (same goes to Arya btw), but at the end of the day it's Bran who will usher in Spring on the magical level. Jon is more likely to do it on the political side. 

Bran is prince of Winterfell because he is king Robb's younger brother. The PtwP is from Rhaella and Aerys line. It can be Jon, it can be Daenerys. But it can't be Bran.

Of course Bran will have a major role on the magical side of the affair. He may later use his powers to steer the world, as powerful as an Old God. But as greenseer, merged with the weirwoods, invisible to most. Jon will be the visible side, living among the men, making them understand the way of keeping peace with the gods.

[Chris Mormont]

Is Jon already King in the books is a complicated question and the answer is based on which rules/ customs/ oaths you believe govern.

You can argue that if you believe R+L=J that Jon was King of the 7K at birth, as long as FAegon is fake.

You could also argue that Robb's will made Jon King of the North after the Red Wedding.

But you can counter those arguments with the fact that Jon took the Night's Watch Vows.