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OberynBlackfyre

Is Jon Already a King in the books? Aka What makes a King?

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So something very much revealing came fo me from a recent reread of Game of Thrones. 
 

When Jon is planning on becoming an oath breaker from the Nights Watch, we of course know that he was brought back by his friends. Yet, was it more than that? 
 

We know through Jon’s parentage that he of course has royal blood in his veins, but I think there is a fierce difference in just having royal blood and then having “Kingsblood”. Now blood isn’t really the topic here, but it’s important since what we are talking about is-what constitutes a person as “King” level in A Song of Ice and Fire. 
We have many different types of Kings in the books, some who are not even called such, and some who are called Kings yet do not fit the title at all. 
-Viserys was called King by many people, but he of course was never actually King of anything as he never wielded any real power or loyalty. 
 

-Mance Rayder is King because of his pure ferocity of will, although he eschews essentially everything to do with being a king. He wields power as people listen to him, but he has none of the trappings of a king and no guards. There is also no sense of divine favor saying that the gods wil him to be King. 
 

-Khal Drogo absolutely fits the bill of a King, although essentially he would be unlike a Lord in Westeros- perhaps simply a Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. There is no divine favor, yet people differ to him and praise him.  He has sword protectors. He has strength, an army. And more importantly is seems like he fit the bill of “Kingsblood” for Daenerys’ ritual to awaken the dragons.  
 

-Euron is a King through power, divine favor seemingly, and also through popular decision. He commands loyalty, wears a crown and title. Although for the moment it seems like he has no sworn protectors and like Mance and Drogo- he simply commands men out of sheer force of willpower. 
 

Now to Jon Snow. From the moment he got to the Wall he has been displaying a set of emotions and narrative that shows his character is ascending. Constantly reaching new plateaus.  However do we have to wait for him to be crowned to necessarily call him a “King” or has the foreshadowing already shown what he is? 
 

We know that like Joffrey and Stannis, Jon’s blood makes him a candidate for kingship. However from most symbolic Kings and Kings we see, blood doesn’t count for much. 
 

Ok but we also know how Ghost has supernaturally communicates and helped him, and how Mormonts raven has even shouted “King” in Jon’s presence more than a few times. This would be part of Jon’s divine favor to rule. 
 

Aside from that we know that he’s also had men follow him through sheer force of will, and even then through democratic popular decision. 
 

Yet in a Game of Thrones when Jon becomes an oath breaker, we see people bring him back but not just ANY number of people. There is a group of SEVEN that we see go to bring back their friend and to protect him. This seems strange since people like Halder and Matthias certainly like Jon, but to risk their lives for him almost seems out of place since they are never shown as close friends the likes of Pyp, Green, or Sam. And even Toad. Yet GRRM made sure that there was 7 to bring Jon back and to save his life essentially. 
 

Now although Jon doesn’t have the title of King, we see through people like Viserys and Joffrey what simply being called a King means, ergo it doesn’t really mean anything. And he does not wear a crown, yet neither do people like Mance Rayder or Khal Drogo. 
 

Yet what Jon does have is a divine favor to rule, loyalty, and guards that would seemingly die to protect him .  So has Jon symbolically achieved the title of King for a much longer time than we have thought? 
 

And also what else does makes a person a King in the story? Is there any other King or Queens that do not bear the title but still fit this criteria? 

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2 hours ago, frenin said:

Jon is King of anything.

Jon is King of Nothing. 

3 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

So something very much revealing came fo me from a recent reread of Game of Thrones. 
 

When Jon is planning on becoming an oath breaker from the Nights Watch, we of course know that he was brought back by his friends. Yet, was it more than that? 
 

We know through Jon’s parentage that he of course has royal blood in his veins, but I think there is a fierce difference in just having royal blood and then having “Kingsblood”. Now blood isn’t really the topic here, but it’s important since what we are talking about is-what constitutes a person as “King” level in A Song of Ice and Fire. 
We have many different types of Kings in the books, some who are not even called such, and some who are called Kings yet do not fit the title at all. 
-Viserys was called King by many people, but he of course was never actually King of anything as he never wielded any real power or loyalty. 
 

-Mance Rayder is King because of his pure ferocity of will, although he eschews essentially everything to do with being a king. He wields power as people listen to him, but he has none of the trappings of a king and no guards. There is also no sense of divine favor saying that the gods wil him to be King. 
 

-Khal Drogo absolutely fits the bill of a King, although essentially he would be unlike a Lord in Westeros- perhaps simply a Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. There is no divine favor, yet people differ to him and praise him.  He has sword protectors. He has strength, an army. And more importantly is seems like he fit the bill of “Kingsblood” for Daenerys’ ritual to awaken the dragons.  
 

-Euron is a King through power, divine favor seemingly, and also through popular decision. He commands loyalty, wears a crown and title. Although for the moment it seems like he has no sworn protectors and like Mance and Drogo- he simply commands men out of sheer force of willpower. 
 

Now to Jon Snow. From the moment he got to the Wall he has been displaying a set of emotions and narrative that shows his character is ascending. Constantly reaching new plateaus.  However do we have to wait for him to be crowned to necessarily call him a “King” or has the foreshadowing already shown what he is? 
 

We know that like Joffrey and Stannis, Jon’s blood makes him a candidate for kingship. However from most symbolic Kings and Kings we see, blood doesn’t count for much. 
 

Ok but we also know how Ghost has supernaturally communicates and helped him, and how Mormonts raven has even shouted “King” in Jon’s presence more than a few times. This would be part of Jon’s divine favor to rule. 
 

Aside from that we know that he’s also had men follow him through sheer force of will, and even then through democratic popular decision. 
 

Yet in a Game of Thrones when Jon becomes an oath breaker, we see people bring him back but not just ANY number of people. There is a group of SEVEN that we see go to bring back their friend and to protect him. This seems strange since people like Halder and Matthias certainly like Jon, but to risk their lives for him almost seems out of place since they are never shown as close friends the likes of Pyp, Green, or Sam. And even Toad. Yet GRRM made sure that there was 7 to bring Jon back and to save his life essentially. 
 

Now although Jon doesn’t have the title of King, we see through people like Viserys and Joffrey what simply being called a King means, ergo it doesn’t really mean anything. And he does not wear a crown, yet neither do people like Mance Rayder or Khal Drogo. 
 

Yet what Jon does have is a divine favor to rule, loyalty, and guards that would seemingly die to protect him .  So has Jon symbolically achieved the title of King for a much longer time than we have thought? 
 

And also what else does makes a person a King in the story? Is there any other King or Queens that do not bear the title but still fit this criteria? 

Guards that would seemingly die to protect him?  Oh my.  The last people which he led made the choice to kill him because of his incompetence and oath breaking.  Divine?  R+L=J might be a fact on the show but it is very far from that in the books.  That might be something completely made up by Benioff and Weiss.  Jon has only achieved to weaken the strength of an organization that is thousands of years old and betrayed them to help his sister.  Frankly, to help the girl who he thought was Arya.  Jon is one of the causes of problems in Westeros.  He is more of a trouble maker rather than a protagonists. 

If Jon is to become king it will be the Night King 2.0.  The parallels are there.  Lord Commanders who betrayed the Watch.  He will become the Ice King, one of the main antagonists in the story.

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9 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon is King of Nothing. 

Guards that would seemingly die to protect him?  Oh my.  The last people which he led made the choice to kill him because of his incompetence and oath breaking.  Divine?  R+L=J might be a fact on the show but it is very far from that in the books.  That might be something completely made up by Benioff and Weiss.  Jon has only achieved to weaken the strength of an organization that is thousands of years old and betrayed them to help his sister.  Frankly, to help the girl who he thought was Arya.  Jon is one of the causes of problems in Westeros.  He is more of a trouble maker rather than a protagonists. 

If Jon is to become king it will be the Night King 2.0.  The parallels are there.  Lord Commanders who betrayed the Watch.  He will become the Ice King, one of the main antagonists in the story.

I’m going to have to disagree quite heavily there. There is nothing to show in any foreshadowing that Jon would become the Nights King. I mean frankly there is more foreshadowing for Stannis if anyone. 
 

I mean his dream where he is wearing black ice like armor, but then he’s also wielding a red sword and yah know, fighting against the Others. 
Not to mention Mormonts Raven calling him a King, and people being seemingly drawn to him.  The guards who would die for him are the Seven I mentioned, 7 implying a Kingsguard which is a group of 7, but also because, as the chapter states, If they had been caught gone as well, they would risk being called deserters as well. 
 

I have really seen nothing to say Jon would fall in love with a sorceress and then start sacrificing to the Others.  And he is far far far far from first commander to have “betrayed” the Watch. If anything the Watch betrayed him. 

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4 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

And also what else does makes a person a King in the story? Is there any other King or Queens that do not bear the title but still fit this criteria? 

Excellent topic.

I think there are numerous kings in the books. Westeros had many "kingdoms" that were conquered and consolidated by regional kings - the kind of king that the Starks were, uniting the North before Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. We see a lot of these petty kings persist or revive in the course of the novels - not necessarily as openly-acknowledged kings, as Renly or Robb Stark believes is necessary, but through their leadership or other actions. Heredity may also be a factor.

I'm partial to wordplay as a source of clues, and I think it's clear that GRRM uses words ending in "-king" to drop hints. For instance, Jon Snow is often walking around Castle Black and he is probably the Wall King. Gendry is described as being thin and Arya describes his pained expression when she observes him thinking. It would not surprise me if Tyrion is the talking tall king: Maester Aemon says that Tyrion is a giant and we often observe him talking and using words to his advantage.  In the last paragraphs of this post, I made a case for Joffrey as the Lie King.

Stinking, tricking, working, dunking, kicking. There could be as many potential kings in the books as there are verbs ending in the letter k.

 

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12 hours ago, Seams said:

Excellent topic.

I think there are numerous kings in the books. Westeros had many "kingdoms" that were conquered and consolidated by regional kings - the kind of king that the Starks were, uniting the North before Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror. We see a lot of these petty kings persist or revive in the course of the novels - not necessarily as openly-acknowledged kings, as Renly or Robb Stark believes is necessary, but through their leadership or other actions. Heredity may also be a factor.

I'm partial to wordplay as a source of clues, and I think it's clear that GRRM uses words ending in "-king" to drop hints. For instance, Jon Snow is often walking around Castle Black and he is probably the Wall King. Gendry is described as being thin and Arya describes his pained expression when she observes him thinking. It would not surprise me if Tyrion is the talking tall king: Maester Aemon says that Tyrion is a giant and we often observe him talking and using words to his advantage.  In the last paragraphs of this post, I made a case for Joffrey as the Lie King.

Stinking, tricking, working, dunking, kicking. There could be as many potential kings in the books as there are verbs ending in the letter k.

 

Now that is VERY interesting 

 

GRRM absolutely does love word play and I wouldn’t be surprised if these things were the case.  
 

I also think that Beric Dondarrion could be a King as he fits a lot of the criteria for it as well.  Tyrion is someone I was wanting to see if he fit because I think he’s almost like an intellectual King. 

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9 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Now that is VERY interesting 

 

GRRM absolutely does love word play and I wouldn’t be surprised if these things were the case.  
 

I also think that Beric Dondarrion could be a King as he fits a lot of the criteria for it as well.  Tyrion is someone I was wanting to see if he fit because I think he’s almost like an intellectual King. 

I bet Bran is the seeking See King.

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On 10/27/2019 at 11:02 AM, OberynBlackfyre said:

-Viserys was called King by many people, but he of course was never actually King of anything as he never wielded any real power or loyalty.

No more power than Tommen.

Contrast Viserys III with Aegon I,5.

The difference between saying that he "should become" King and saying that he "was" King as of present.

When Aegon and his supporters under siege at Crakehall learned Aenys had died and Maegor seized throne for himself, they said Maegor was an usurper and that Aegon should become King - but did not call Aegon King Aegon II at Crakehall.

When Rhaella under, effectively, siege (she had the whole island and seas, but the mainland shore was rebel held) learned that Aerys had died and Robert seized throne, Rhaella and those in her garrison did call Viserys King. Viserys was as much King as Stannis was before sailing against Renly.

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2 hours ago, Jaak said:

No more power than Tommen.

Contrast Viserys III with Aegon I,5.

The difference between saying that he "should become" King and saying that he "was" King as of present.

When Aegon and his supporters under siege at Crakehall learned Aenys had died and Maegor seized throne for himself, they said Maegor was an usurper and that Aegon should become King - but did not call Aegon King Aegon II at Crakehall.

When Rhaella under, effectively, siege (she had the whole island and seas, but the mainland shore was rebel held) learned that Aerys had died and Robert seized throne, Rhaella and those in her garrison did call Viserys King. Viserys was as much King as Stannis was before sailing against Renly.

I think the main difference between those is coronations. From what I remember, Viserys never had a proper coronation or was crowned on Dragonstone because at that time, Rhaegar was still alive- and then she died when Daenerys was born. 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, Jon Snow, the King of Winter is now the de facto king of the Free Folk.

Not while Mance Rayder is alive.  I also believe Jon will become King of Winterfell but in a perverted way.  He will be King of Winter, part human part White Walker.  He will rule over ice and death.  That reign will last until the ice recedes and humans return to Westeros.  

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On 10/27/2019 at 8:50 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon is King of Nothing. 

Guards that would seemingly die to protect him?  Oh my.  The last people which he led made the choice to kill him because of his incompetence and oath breaking.  Divine?  R+L=J might be a fact on the show but it is very far from that in the books.  That might be something completely made up by Benioff and Weiss.  Jon has only achieved to weaken the strength of an organization that is thousands of years old and betrayed them to help his sister.  Frankly, to help the girl who he thought was Arya.  Jon is one of the causes of problems in Westeros.  He is more of a trouble maker rather than a protagonists. 

If Jon is to become king it will be the Night King 2.0.  The parallels are there.  Lord Commanders who betrayed the Watch.  He will become the Ice King, one of the main antagonists in the story.

King of Winter.  The NW will fall because of the trouble he made with the Boltons.  

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17 minutes ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

Not while Mance Rayder is alive. 

Is Mance still alive? I certainly hope so, but if he is, he’s in no position to lead or rule anyone at present. Regardless, it’s to Jon the free folk swore fealty and it was Jon they decided to follow into battle. So, there you go. Jon is the de facto king of the FF.

 

Quote

I also believe Jon will become King of Winterfell

King of Winterfell? Winterfell is not a kingdom.

Quote

but in a perverted way.  He will be King of Winter, part human part White Walker.  He will rule over ice and death.  That reign will last until the ice recedes and humans return to Westeros.  

That’s a pipe dream, and you probably know this on some level. Then again, maybe not. Have fun w/ it while you can. :cheers:

16 minutes ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

King of Winter.  The NW will fall because of the trouble he made with the Boltons.  

Nope, wrong again. The NW has been failing for a long time because they forgot their true purpose. And Marsh & co stabbing Jon was the final straw, because it’s Jon who will put the NW back on track: defending the realms of men. And of course, the fact that the NW will be mostly FM now will help set things straight. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I think the main difference between those is coronations. From what I remember, Viserys never had a proper coronation or was crowned on Dragonstone because at that time, Rhaegar was still alive- and then she died when Daenerys was born. 

When Rhaella and Viserys sailed for Dragonstone, Rhaegaer and Aerys were alive. But since Aerys by them rarely slept with Rhaella, she likely got pregnant that last night after burning Chelsted. And Rossart is later mentioned to have been Hand for two weeks - leaving two weeks for Rhaegaer travelling to Trident, dying and Eddard riding to Red Keep.

After Rhaegaer and Aerys had died in one month, Rhaella had eight months on Dragonstone to call Viserys King and hold coronations.

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7 hours ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

Not while Mance Rayder is alive.  I also believe Jon will become King of Winterfell but in a perverted way.  He will be King of Winter, part human part White Walker.  He will rule over ice and death.  That reign will last until the ice recedes and humans return to Westeros.  

Mance Rayder is alive but honestly his “name” is dead.  He was once a king but I think the Wildlings look more to Jon, or will especially after his resurrection, than they ever did to Mance.  Mance had a decent plan humanitarian wise, but he really didn’t help the Wildlings too much. 

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If "His is the song of ice and fire" refers to Jon and Mel isn't completely wrong in how she sees the world. 

Jon's resurrection may be tied to the power of the God of Night(Ice) and Terror(Fire). 
The Great Other. 

Drogo and Rhaego seemed to count as Kings for Dany's dragon hatching ritual. 

Quote

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings.

In the book, Euron and his child with Falia, may count. 

Edited by Narsil4
Oops, didn't realize I wasn't even supposed to mention the show..

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On 10/27/2019 at 9:04 AM, OberynBlackfyre said:

I’m going to have to disagree quite heavily there. There is nothing to show in any foreshadowing that Jon would become the Nights King. I mean frankly there is more foreshadowing for Stannis if anyone. 
 

I mean his dream where he is wearing black ice like armor, but then he’s also wielding a red sword and yah know, fighting against the Others. 
Not to mention Mormonts Raven calling him a King, and people being seemingly drawn to him.  The guards who would die for him are the Seven I mentioned, 7 implying a Kingsguard which is a group of 7, but also because, as the chapter states, If they had been caught gone as well, they would risk being called deserters as well. 
 

I have really seen nothing to say Jon would fall in love with a sorceress and then start sacrificing to the Others.  And he is far far far far from first commander to have “betrayed” the Watch. If anything the Watch betrayed him. 

All memories of warmth will leave his body.  He is a descendant of the traitor, Nights King.  He let Mance Rayder go unpunished.  He attempted desertion to help Robb.  The betrayals are there.  Jon was the one who betrayed the watch.  

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11 hours ago, The Way of the Dragon said:

Not while Mance Rayder is alive.  I also believe Jon will become King of Winterfell but in a perverted way.  He will be King of Winter, part human part White Walker.  He will rule over ice and death.  That reign will last until the ice recedes and humans return to Westeros.  

Jon has already perverted the office of lord commander by interfering with the Boltons.  He also executed a sworn brother for a comparatively minor crime while letting Mance Rayder go unpunished.  

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2 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

 

Drogo and Rhaego seemed to count as Kings for Dany's dragon hatching ritual. 

 

Not according to Mel, since Rhaego died before Drogo and therefore was never a “king”. 

“Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds.”

 

2 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

 In the show, Euron and his child with Cersei, may have also counted. 
Though it's hard to say how relevant any of that was, but they seemed to hint at it with him being so happy to be killed by the Kingslayer. 

 

 

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