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The Blackfyre Rebeillion was a betrayal, not a rebellion


OberynBlackfyre

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3 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I think it’s telling that Daeron himself didn’t even show much care or suspicion regarding Daemon.  He didn’t banish, watch, or control Daemon in any sense. It’s true he did not bring him in the fold for the governance of the realm, but nor did he put any restrictions or suspicion on Daemon UNTIL WORD FROM BLOODRAVEN.  
Daeron wasn’t a stupid king in the least. If he thought Daemon was a threat, and with a wife from Tyrosh which could possibly be a threat of bringing Essos into play- but instead Daeron let Daemon have 7 children, without even taking so much as one as hostage or cup bearer. 

Again you don't know about that and Yandel tells us that he indeed took measurements to avoid his siblings to be unhappy.

Daeron did not stop there, however, in his efforts to improve those things that his father had corrupted or had left to rot through malign neglect. He was conscientious in his duties to the realm and sought to stabilize it in the wake of Aegon’s deathbed decree, which legitimized all his bastard half siblings. Although he could not—and would not—rescind his father’s last wishes, he did what he could to keep the Great Bastards close, treating them honorably and continuing the incomes that the king had bestowed on them. He paid the dowry that Aegon had promised to the Archon of Tyrosh, thereby seeing his half brother Daemon Blackfyre wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh as Aegon had desired, for all that Ser Daemon was only four-and-ten. On their wedding day, he granted Daemon a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise a castle. Some said he did such things to assert his rule and legitimacy over the Great Bastards, and others because he was kind and just. But whatever the truth, such efforts sadly proved in vain. Yandel

 

Or is your point show that was Bloodraven who showed Daeron Daemon was a traitor?? I agree.

 

 

3 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

first you said that Daemon deserved to be arrested or was in breach of rebellion, but then you say that Daemon was innocent and “did nothing wrong” with Bloodraven wanting to rid the entire realm of the Blackfyre rebels. 

IF Daemon was a traitor and Bloodraven was right,  then Daemon not only deserved his capture but to have his head on a spike.

But Bloodraven wouldn't just frame a brother he had no feud with just for the sake of it.

 

 

3 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

I already explained that for Bloodraven the motivation is that he he was gaining power and trust from the throne by pointing out that there were conspirators urging Daemon to take the throne. We do not know what Daemon himself felt as there is nothing that directly has said “Daemon lusted for power and wanted the throne”. Only that those around him urged him again and again, and then he was essentially forced into action by the arrest proclamation. 

But you have to explain why Bloodraven would just frame his brother, the idea that he was "forced into action" is stupid,  he could talk to his brother but instead he crowned himself, not even Robert's first choice was crowning himself.

 

 

3 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Bloodraven would be rising in his station AND taking care of Bittersteel at the same time, while also making all those who supported Bittersteel traitors for being part of the “Blackfyre conspiracy”. This is not at all a huge step for Bloodraven, as we know he outright lied to Daemons heir when he wanted to be part of the Great Council- Bloodraven said he could come put his claim peacefully, and then beheaded him right then and there. 

So you are using as evidence something that not only will pass 34 years in the future but sething that happened explicitly because Bloodraven  was done with the Blackfyres by that point?? 

 

 

3 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Nothing I’ve said comes from future text. You’ve used GRRM words from a long time ago but the WOIAF and FaB have retconned some things and shows that the Blackfyre Rebellion was pretty ambiguous in why it got started other than Daemon probably listened to some bad counselors, and then the arrest warrant from the throne felt like he HAD to act. Similar to Roberts Rebellion. 

Neither F&B, which had told absolutely nothing about the Blackfyres by this point,  nor WOIAF have retconned anything,  there  is absolutely no contradiction between Martin's words and WOIAF words just that the first contradict your points and you're using thelatter as if it would've told the entire reigns of the Unworthy, the Good and the Blackfyre Rebellion, instead of just showing a  tiny fragment.

The comparation with the Robellion is just off, when Aerys arrested Brandon and co and their fathers  were summoned, they didn't present there with an army, and they should have, they obeyed their King, a King who by then were already called the Mad King,  Robert and Ned HAD to act because they didn't have any options, Rhargar had abducted Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard, Elbert and co were brutally killed and Aerys was calling for their heads just for the sake of it and even then their first reaction wasn't crowning Robert,  Daemon didn't HAVE to act, Daemon WANTED TO ACT and used the arrest as an excuse.

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8 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

That’s very much conjecture, though. No one “forced” Alyssane to have that many children and I don’t think Jahaerys ever forced it upon her. That’s kind of grasping. 

Alysanne had her thirteen pregnancies over a time of nearly thirty years. That is a difference. But I'd also say that the number of pregnancies Alysanne had to go through contributed to her early death and her failing health in old age.

Besides, that's just as much 'grasping' as your idea that Daemon must have been a good guy. We really don't know the man, and just as there are hints that he may have been pretty decent there are also rather troubling hints.

If he truly wanted to be a Targaryen polygamist as an unlegitimized bastard he would show clear signs of narcissim and/or hubris. And if he that many children with his wife Rohanne while actually loving his half-sister Daenerys he seems to be a hypocrite and/or very selfish.

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12 hours ago, frenin said:

But we actually don't know the dynamics here, Rohanne could have been calling the shots on that part of the marriage, we don't know wither if she wanted to abort, let alone of she was forced not to.

Sounds like very unlikely considering she was a foreigner in Westeros. Even Larra Rogare, who was years older than Viserys II, did not call the shots in their marriage after they came to KL. She didn't even speak the Common Tongue.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

They certainly are but eight preganacies in 12 years for a happy couple that loved to have sex is the risk you assume when you have a lot of sex, if they were so down for each other, sexually speaking not romantically, 8 pregnancies are just what they get.

Not in a world where there is magical moon tea to prevent pregnancies.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Daemon certainly could have a little more of brains but whether Rohanne was forced to have pregnancies, ie either raped or if not  forced not to abort is only that only Rohanne, or if not context, can tell us and right now we don't know absolutely nothing about their marriage and why was the reason they banged/she was raped so often.

I'm not saying Rohanne was raped, just that the number of pregnancies she had in that short a time is, for Westerosi noblewomen, very unusual and can be seen a hint that Daemon Blackfyre may have had certain less sympathetic traits. In fact, if this was motivated by his desire for sex he may have inherited the sexual appetites of his father, the Unworthy.

Aegon IV isn't the only Targaryen with a big hunger for sex. Aegon II had it, too, Saera had it very much, Maegor did not only have his six wives, but also a harem of common women he fucked, too, later we have Aerys II in his youth, etc.

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Completely agree here, tbh  until more is revealed about him Daemon sounds to me like a decent lad who thinks he can get away with everything because he's a very pretty/hot boy and him recieving Blackfyre and hanging out withplotters would just multiply his ego, a decent lad in the end but a very self centered one.

Real dark spots we have yet to look for. It would be interesting to know what he intended to do to Daeron II and his sons and grandsons after he had won.

Or what he wanted to do about the Dornish. situation later.

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He was her LORD husband. It is was his call, and his call alone, when they had sex.

Bittersteel abandoned Daemon II to his enemies, withholding his sword from him - which, as Daemon I's eldest son and Bittersteel's rightful king was his sword from the moment Daemon I closed his eyes on the Redgrass Field.

Bittersteel being loyal the Blackfyres - who he may have just seen as his horse to power considering that Daeron II didn't want anything to do with him - doesn't mean he was a particular loyal guy. He could have just been a very ambitious and bitter guy, who used his half-brothers sons and grandchildren as pawns in his hopeless game against the Iron Throne.

Considering the circumstances it is essentially impossible for there to be 'a reliable witness' for Daeron II's conception. We know Aegon IV continuously raped his sister-wife Naerys throughout their long marriage. And we know there was a bedding in their wedding and she got pregnant quickly after their marriage considering Daeron II was born in the year of their marriage (153 AC). We also know that Naerys herself referred to Daeron II as Aegon's child.

Now, even if both Aemon and Aegon were fucking Naerys in 153 AC around the time of Daeron's conception - it would be impossible for Naerys herself to know who the father was. Unless the conception took place at a point in time when she and Aegon were separated for some time - but then Aegon himself would have known back then that his sister-wife was carrying a bastard and Naerys would have suffered a rather ugly fate (alongside the Dragonknight) rather early in her brother's reign - or perhaps even before. We don't know Aegon III's view on adultery and fornication.

It is just not very likely that anyone knew who Daeron's father was.

As for the king thing:

Daeron II's parentage is completely irrelevant in relation to his kingship. He was the king. He was the legally acknowledged son and anointed heir of Aegon IV, and he was duly crowned and anointed king after his father's death.

That's it. No revelation about his true parentage would have undone that. In fact, publicly 'revealing' such knowledge was treason in any case, never mind whether accurate or not. All well-meaning people could have done was to tell the king privately what they believed they had learned and listen to their story. Whether the king would then want to abdicate in favor of some legitimized bastard half-brother would be his choice, and his choice alone.

And, frankly, the idea that Daemon Blackfyre would be 'the rightful king' if Daeron II wasn't Aegon's son is ridiculous. He fathered dozens of bastards. Daemon is the oldest male 'great bastard', but considering that Aegon's decree legitimized all his children, no matter whether they were baseborn or highborn, his eldest son would have been the rightful heir - and that was, most likely, not Daemon Blackfyre, a child who was born only in 170 AC, seventeen years after Daeron II.

You have no idea if a Lord and his wife only have sex when the Lord wants to. Women do enjoy sex too. It could turnout that Daemon and Rohanne had a horrible relationship, just like it could turnout they had a great relationship. We just don't know at the moment.  

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6 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

You have no idea if a Lord and he's wife only have sex when the Lord wants to. Women do enjoy sex too. It could turnout that Daemon and Rohanne had a horrible relationship, just like it could turnout they had a great relationship. We just don't know at the moment.  

The point being is that if the woman did not want to have sex or get pregnant again, her voice would not matter. She has to obey her lord husband. This doesn't mean the man who owns and rules her cannot be nice, but no marriage in Westeros is a marriage among people who have equal rights. And that's made very clear by how marriage is portrayed.

And Daemon Blackfyre's marriage is one of those where my first impression of the setup is not that they were a happy or loving couple. Not just because the many pregnancies in that short of a time but also because we have reason to believe Daemon never wanted to marry Rohanne of Tyrosh and that he loved another woman before and/or during their marriage.

If that's your image of a good/healthy relationship/marriage, then you have a rather interesting concept on that side... ;-).

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20 hours ago, frenin said:

Because neither Aegor nor Daemon became convinced Daeron wasn't the Unworthy's son.

Actually, both men claimed he wasn't, and cited it as the reason for their coup attempt. So, either they lied or they believed it. Given the fact the rumor preceded even from the time that Daeron became king, that's an indication that both men initially did not believe it (when Aegon the Unworthy entertained it). And they did not ty to commit a coup until years after.

It is Yandel and everybody else who do not believe the claim and therefore seek for other explanations, none that add up (and even Yandel admits as much), or contradict what we know of these men through their actions over time.

Here's an article I wrote on House Blackfyre: https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/11/house-blackfyre/

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sounds like very unlikely considering she was a foreigner in Westeros. Even Larra Rogare, who was years older than Viserys II, did not call the shots in their marriage after they came to KL. She didn't even speak the Common Tongue.

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Sounds unlikely but not impossible, so we can't just act as we do know their dynamic, maybe you're right, maybe you don't.

And i'd say Larra did call the shots on her marriage and it seems Viserys madly in love with her given how he changed once she left him.

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not in a world where there is magical moon tea to prevent pregnancies.

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But even then we don't know if Rohanne wanted to abort or stop having kids.

 

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying Rohanne was raped, just that the number of pregnancies she had in that short a time is, for Westerosi noblewomen, very unusual and can be seen a hint that Daemon Blackfyre may have had certain less sympathetic traits. In fact, if this was motivated by his desire for sex he may have inherited the sexual appetites of his father, the Unworthy.

Aegon IV isn't the only Targaryen with a big hunger for sex. Aegon II had it, too, Saera had it very much, Maegor did not only have his six wives, but also a harem of common women he fucked, too, later we have Aerys II in his youth, etc.

You can be right but even then until we know  where Rohanne where in all the mess, this is kinda pointless and even Jaeharys had a big hunger for sex having kids.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Real dark spots we have yet to look for. It would be interesting to know what he intended to do to Daeron II and his sons and grandsons after he had won.

Or what he wanted to do about the Dornish. situation later.

I'm on the opinion they would've died, Daemon didn't seem that stupid and as long as Baelor lived, his Thronne would never be saved.

The Dornish situation is very funny to guess, his powerbase was entirely anti dornish and yet the Yronwoods would've been vital in avoiding any Martell army to help the royalists.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, both men claimed he wasn't, and cited it as the reason for their coup attempt. So, either they lied or they believed it. Given the fact the rumor preceded even from the time that Daeron became king, that's an indication that both men initially did not believe it (when Aegon the Unworthy entertained it). And they did not ty to commit a coup until years after.

 

As Tyrion says,  they need to have a reason to usurp the Throne, and rightful king always rings better than usurper and Aegor took years to convice Daemon to rebel, not because he didn't believe the calumny.

 

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

 It is Yandel and everybody else who do not believe the claim and therefore seek for other explanations, none that add up (and even Yandel admits as much), or contradict what we know of these men through their actions over time.

 

Really?? Because they reek of hypocrisy. 

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6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sounds unlikely but not impossible, so we can't just act as we do know their dynamic, maybe you're right, maybe you don't.

And i'd say Larra did call the shots on her marriage and it seems Viserys madly in love with her given how he changed once she left him.

Viserys loved his wife very much, sure, but being in love isn't the same as being controlled by or being subservient to your spouse. And legally, husbands always rule their wives in Westeros. Even a man who is manipulated by his wife or really under her thumb can, if gets his act together, take a rod as thick as his finger and give her a good beating.

That is the marriage reality in Westeros.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

But even then we don't know if Rohanne wanted to abort or stop having kids.

Sure, we don't know the details. Just hints that could indicate that Rohanne may not have been all that happy in her marriage - which, again, is not only due to her pregnancies but also Daemon's thing for Daenerys.

And, if we consider Larra's situation, she may also have not felt at home in Westeros. But we really need to know more about her and the other Tyroshi wife the Targaryens had, Kiera of Tyrosh, who married both Prince Valarr and then later Daeron the Drunk.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

You can be right but even then until we know  where Rohanne where in all the mess, this is kinda pointless and even Jaeharys had a big hunger for sex having kids.

Alysanne had thirteen children in thirty years - that is a different situation. But I certainly agree that Alysanne also had too many pregnancies.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'm on the opinion they would've died, Daemon didn't seem that stupid and as long as Baelor lived, his Thronne would never be saved.

Likely, but we don't know that yet. Daeron, Valarr and Aerion were all already born or their mothers were pregnant with them during the Redgrass Field, meaning he may even have been forced to kill pregnant women and/or infant children - if he wanted to destroy Daeron's line.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

The Dornish situation is very funny to guess, his powerbase was entirely anti dornish and yet the Yronwoods would've been vital in avoiding any Martell army to help the royalists.

One assumes he would have cleansed the court of Dornishmen, but the really tricky thing is how he and his sycophants would have dealt with the Dornish union. Would Daemon have changed the conditions of the pact between Daeron II and Maron? If so, this could have caused another Dornish War.

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44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys loved his wife very much, sure, but being in love isn't the same as being controlled by or being subservient to your spouse. And legally, husbands always rule their wives in Westeros. Even a man who is manipulated by his wife or really under her thumb can, if gets his act together, take a rod as thick as his finger and give her a good beating.

That is the marriage reality in Westeros.

Butt being in love and being 13 while your wife is already an adult does imply that that power dynamics never favored Viserys, Larra also left and Viserys could 've (legally) forced to stay and yet he didn't/couldn't  and yes marriages in Westeros are shitty, does don't mean that in every single marriage, the woman is submitted, there have to be a lot of Tytos/Emmons around there and everytime a woman with higher status marriages a lord with lower, she should, presumably, have the upper hand in the relationship.

 

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, we don't know the details. Just hints that could indicate that Rohanne may not have been all that happy in her marriage - which, again, is not only due to her pregnancies but also Daemon's thing for Daenerys.

And, if we consider Larra's situation, she may also have not felt at home in Westeros. But we really need to know more about her and the other Tyroshi wife the Targaryens had, Kiera of Tyrosh, who married both Prince Valarr and then later Daeron the Drunk.

Oh i agree that there is something fishy there but i don't think that the pregnancies, and we don't even know sge had 8 pregnancies by this point, don't strike to me as  a hint to call the man the devil.

Sure but Larra and the rest of the Essosi were there because of their fathers and one suppose their states, not theur hubbies.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Alysanne had thirteen children in thirty years - that is a different situation. But I certainly agree that Alysanne also had too many pregnancies.

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Even when she didn't seem capable of having more children...

 

 

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Likely, but we don't know that yet. Daeron, Valarr and Aerion were all already born or their mothers were pregnant with them during the Redgrass Field, meaning he may even have been forced to kill pregnant women and/or infant children - if he wanted to destroy Daeron's line.

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Those kids had alreay born, the one that should've been in the middle is Aemon and yes, i think that at least Baelor is as good as dead, Maekar is a great general but he doesn't seem like the man you would rally to take the Throne against the Black Dragon.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes he would have cleansed the court of Dornishmen, but the really tricky thing is how he and his sycophants would have dealt with the Dornish union. Would Daemon have changed the conditions of the pact between Daeron II and Maron? If so, this could have caused another Dornish War.

A war with Dorne and in Dorne seemed inevitable, not only because Daemon would've killed several, if not all of Myriah's kids but because the Yronwoods didn't help him to face the Martells fury alone.

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So you are saying that Bloodraven struck first(and possibly prematurely) against house Blackfyre, not only because he viewed Daemon Blackfyre himself as threat, but also because of his personal feud with bittersteal?

I've heard much crazier ideas. In my opinion it falls somewhere on the scale between definitely possible and highly likely.

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8 hours ago, frenin said:

As Tyrion says,  they need to have a reason to usurp the Throne, and rightful king always rings better than usurper and Aegor took years to convice Daemon to rebel, not because he didn't believe the calumny.

Of course they need a reason. Everybody but psychopaths need reasons.
It is only "hypocritical" if you believe Aegor and Daemon were malicious and greedy and purposefully lied. That means you have a clouded judgment, predisposed to believe the views of the victor, predisposed to believe speculations by victors over the consistent characterization of both men.

For example, Bloodraven knew that Daemon would come to the aid and defend his fallen sons. At the very least this speaks of Daemon having a character who is empathic, valiant and honorable. The woman he supposedly loved was wed to the Prince of Dorne, and he betrothed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Despite this acclaimed passion, Daemon wed Rohanne and did not make a stink at Danaerys' wedding. It took other men years to convince Daemon to act. All these are consistent elements of a character who preferred to act honorable, lawful and dutiful. And then suddenly, after years, he changes his mind. His uprising is the inconsistency here, not the other way around.

When it came to crowning Blackfyres, Aegor followed these succession rules

  • a son/grandson comes before an uncle
  • male descendants before daughters and sisters.

There is plenty of in-world speculation on Bittersteel not being part of the plot to start an uprising with Daemon II and Peake: Daemon II's homosxuality or lacking in knightly talents. Inkpots gives us the clue when he claims Bittersteel fought with the Second Sons for a year before raising the Golden Company. He created the Golden Company in 212. This means that Bittersteel was a Second Son in 210-211, right smack at the time when Peake concvinced Daemon II to leave Tyrosh, cross the Narrow Sea and start an uprising, without the sword Blackfyre. Bittersteel did crown Daemon II and made him the designated heir of Daemon I Blackfyre, he was recruiting amongst the Second Sons (and other companies) to rally exiled Westerosi fighters to join the Golden Company (probably carrying Blackfyre with him to convince the recruits). These aren't the actions of a man who picked and chose Daemon's heirs by preference, but follows the inheritance rules to the throne to the T. Again Bloodraven confirms this when he prefers to keep Daemon II alive and as a hostage at the Red Keep after capture at Whitewhalls: Aegor wil not crown another Blackfyre, while Daemon II lives. And Bloodraven was correct. Bittersteel did not crown Haegon before Daemon II died years later in King's Landing as a pampered hostage. Aegor is not the opportunist here, but someone who invested a lifetime into this: blood, sweat and tears, years and years, decades for the sons of another man.

Neither Daemon I and Aegor's actions and investment befit that of opportunistic egotists, but of men of conviction. By contrast we have Maelys Blackfire, who has no scruples in tearing the head of a cousin who captained the Golden Company, doesn't give a twat about the Iron Throne, but instead makes a deal with 8 other rogues to carve the Stepstones for his new kingdom and help one of those rogues into sacking Tyrosh, the city that harbored his own family for decades. Someone who lusts for power and who is greedy has little patience and uses whichever opportunity and ally he can get to have it, wherever. Peake and Maelys are such characters, and so was Daemon II.

The World Book's "history" is as tainted as if it were written by a maester writing a hisotry for Tommen Baratheon's great-great-great grandson in which Ned Stark and Stannis claim Joffrey and Tommen to be illigetemate. The enormous difference is that George made Joffrey a boy you don't want near a throne and Daeron a diplomatic king, who despite in-family uprisings, managed to create a united Westeros for several generations, until one of his descendants effed up. That you know Ned's thoughts and know for a fact that Joffrey and Tommen aren't Robert's sons, that both Ned and Stannis are or were convinced of the righeousness of their actions.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Of course they need a reason. Everybody but psychopaths need reasons.
It is only "hypocritical" if you believe Aegor and Daemon were malicious and greedy and purposefully lied. That means you have a clouded judgment, predisposed to believe the views of the victor, predisposed to believe speculations by victors over the consistent characterization of both men.

Consistent characters of both of them?? I think tey're greedy usurpers because, theis are the actions of greedy men, the fact that they had positive qualities, Aegor had very few excluding his martial prowess, doesn't  change that.

 

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

For example, Bloodraven knew that Daemon would come to the aid and defend his fallen sons. At the very least this speaks of Daemon having a character who is empathic, valiant and honorable. The woman he supposedly loved was wed to the Prince of Dorne, and he betrothed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Despite this acclaimed passion, Daemon wed Rohanne and did not make a stink at Danaerys' wedding. It took other men years to convince Daemon to act. All these are consistent elements of a character who preferred to act honorable, lawful and dutiful. And then suddenly, after years, he changes his mind. His uprising is the inconsistency here, not the other way around.

 

Demon thought he could get away with polygamy and the "he didn't make a stink in Daenerys wedding" remains to be seen, Martin already said that was the point of no return for him and Daeron and that had nothing to do with Daeron¡s parentage, so Daemon surrounds himself with plotters and would be traitors for years and this apparently is a positive thing?? There is absolutely nothing honorable, dutiful and lawfull about this behaviour, nothing, had he been all that he wouls've gone straight to Daeron, he didn't, he liked it.

What Daemon does there is treason in Westeros and even today is at the very best conspirancy at  worst outright treason.

 

 

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When it came to crowning Blackfyres, Aegor followed these succession rules

  • a son/grandson comes before an uncle
  • male descendants before daughters and sisters.

There is plenty of in-world speculation on Bittersteel not being part of the plot to start an uprising with Daemon II and Peake: Daemon II's homosxuality or lacking in knightly talents. Inkpots gives us the clue when he claims Bittersteel fought with the Second Sons for a year before raising the Golden Company. He created the Golden Company in 212. This means that Bittersteel was a Second Son in 210-211, right smack at the time when Peake concvinced Daemon II to leave Tyrosh, cross the Narrow Sea and start an uprising, without the sword Blackfyre. Bittersteel did crown Daemon II and made him the designated heir of Daemon I Blackfyre, he was recruiting amongst the Second Sons (and other companies) to rally exiled Westerosi fighters to join the Golden Company (probably carrying Blackfyre with him to convince the recruits). These aren't the actions of a man who picked and chose Daemon's heirs by preference, but follows the inheritance rules to the throne to the T. Again Bloodraven confirms this when he prefers to keep Daemon II alive and as a hostage at the Red Keep after capture at Whitewhalls: Aegor wil not crown another Blackfyre, while Daemon II lives. And Bloodraven was correct. Bittersteel did not crown Haegon before Daemon II died years later in King's Landing as a pampered hostage. Aegor is not the opportunist here, but someone who invested a lifetime into this: blood, sweat and tears, years and years, decades for the sons of another man.

 

Bittersteel didn't crown Daemon 2, nor he gave him his heirloom.

Aegor did not crown Haegon because is unlikelythat the younger sons would accept a crown that legitimately was his brother's and put him in danger by doing so.

 

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Neither Daemon I and Aegor's actions and investment befit that of opportunistic egotists, but of men of conviction. By contrast we have Maelys Blackfire, who has no scruples in tearing the head of a cousin who captained the Golden Company, doesn't give a twat about the Iron Throne, but instead makes a deal with 8 other rogues to carve the Stepstones for his new kingdom and help one of those rogues into sacking Tyrosh, the city that harbored his own family for decades. Someone who lusts for power and who is greedy has little patience and uses whichever opportunity and ally he can get to have it, wherever. Peake and Maelys are such characters, and so was Daemon II.

 

  1.  Their actions and investments ofc does befit of opportunistics egomaniacs at first and in case of Aegor later, done men blind by rage and revenge, Pike ejem ejem.
  2. I don't understand the difference between Maelys and Daemon,both tried to kill their kins for power, one succeed the other failed. Maelys' goal was indeed the IT but he understoosd that his cause was dead in Westeros, so he was not going to receive any support there, so he makes a deal with 8 rogues to help each other build kingdoms on their own.  their motivations and goals are clear enough to try and suppose for them.
  3. The Stepstones was a base for them to launch an invasion in grand scale to Westeros.
  4. Why would he care about Tyrosh?? 
  5. The statement about Daemon 2 is just wrong and it fits better your two protegees than Daemon 2, the guy went there because of a prophetic dream and his plan would've worked had it not been because of Bloodraven's spies.
  6. Daemon and Aegor do lust for power (Aegor was the one poisoning the Black Dragon's ear for nearly a  decade and Daemon was the one rebelling to have the Throne) and are greedy (Daemon wanted to have two wives for god's sake) and have little patience (Daemon was going to challenge Daeron to a duel...) and use whichever opportunity (Aegor's life was spared and he was sent to the wall, he escapes and crown another doomed pretender) and ally (Daemon's powerbase was made of anti dornish and yet he gladly accepted the swords of the Yronwoods and every 2nd House below the Neck was with him...) they can get to have it.

 

 

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 The World Book's "history" is as tainted as if it were written by a maester writing a hisotry for Tommen Baratheon's great-great-great grandson in which Ned Stark and Stannis claim Joffrey and Tommen to be illigetemate. The enormous difference is that George made Joffrey a boy you don't want near a throne and Daeron a diplomatic king, who despite in-family uprisings, managed to create a united Westeros for several generations, until one of his descendants effed up. That you know Ned's thoughts and know for a fact that Joffrey and Tommen aren't Robert's sons, that both Ned and Stannis are or were convinced of the righeousness of their actions.

 

Kaeth was there when he wrote History of four Kings and the fact is that Daeron's lineage can't be proven, it all comes to the looks and that's a very stupid reasoning.

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On 10/29/2019 at 1:55 PM, Lord Varys said:

The point being is that if the woman did not want to have sex or get pregnant again, her voice would not matter. She has to obey her lord husband. This doesn't mean the man who owns and rules her cannot be nice, but no marriage in Westeros is a marriage among people who have equal rights. And that's made very clear by how marriage is portrayed.

And Daemon Blackfyre's marriage is one of those where my first impression of the setup is not that they were a happy or loving couple. Not just because the many pregnancies in that short of a time but also because we have reason to believe Daemon never wanted to marry Rohanne of Tyrosh and that he loved another woman before and/or during their marriage.

If that's your image of a good/healthy relationship/marriage, then you have a rather interesting concept on that side... ;-).

Don't think I believe Daemon and Rohanne marriage was some perfect love story. I don't believe their marriage was like say Ned and Cat marriage, probably one of better marriage we see but I also don't think their marriage was like Aegon IV and Naerys. Aegon was forcing Naerys to have sex and get pregnant. 

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