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OberynBlackfyre

The Blackfyre Rebeillion was a betrayal, not a rebellion

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So anyone who has been around the boards for a while knows that I am pretty staunch in my support for House Blackfyre, however I’ve also been adamant that they were just good people with a misguided cause.  Basically that Daemon had bad counselors.  However now, I don’t think that’s the case. If anything, I think Daemon Blackfyre was the victim of a smear campaign perpetrated by one entity- the Targaryen loyalists. Mainly, Bloodraven. 
 

So we know that Bloodraven was a practitioner of black magic, and skin changing. He was such a successful Hand and Master of Whisperers because of this and the cold intellect he could instill against perceived enemies. And like Daemon IV Blackfyre I believe, Bloodraven can and will lie and sacrifice honor simply to get rid of a threat, even if that threat is NOT THREATENING WAR. 


And so in the Blackfyre rebellion timeline, we are introduced with a lot of really interesting facts that make it seem like Daemon himself never really wanted to rebel   People point to him loving the first Daenerys, and being spurned. That is false as they were both married for years and while disappointed neither had publicly spoken out against their respectful marriages, and both seemed to find at least some joy as they both had multiple children  in quick proximity to the marriages  

Some point to the Dornish influence of King Daeron II .  The Dornish marriage and therefore merging of the Dornish customs into the Court was done under this regency, but Daeron had been married for years and had ruled for years with Daemon so much as raising any type of issue or voice about him caring of such things.  Daemon  Blackfyre was a revered Knight and man, and his thoughts and actions are pretty well documented- there is no record of animosity and his actions show none as well   
the counselors that surrounded Daemon had cajoled and tried to manipulate Daemon since his father Aegon IV had put Blackfyre into his hands, and especially when whispers of Daeron supposedly being aired by Aemon the Dragonknight abounded, anyone who was anti Dornish became part of the Blackfyre camp  yet Daemn did not stir for at least 8 years before rebelling, but even then a very particular incident occurred  

 

-The fact that anti Dornish lords, martial Knights, and Daeron doubters had surrounded Daemon was no secret  while Daemon did not raise a voice and seemingly got along with Daeron, there was one who stood beside Daeron that eventually convinced the King and Council to arrest Daemon, though he had done nothing nor crowned himself at all  

 

This person was of course Bloodraven, and he definitely had more reason to act less than honorably  he shared the affections of his sister Shiera Seastar with his hated brother Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel  

He also knew that Daeron was a bastard (perhaps) and that the House of Blackfyre while it existed with such support would always be an existential and political threat to House Targaryen- especially since Aegon IV had legitimized all his bastards.  So what does he do even though Daeron has ruled for 8 years without any issue with Daemon? He waits for a particular time and then sends men to arrest Daemon and his supporters  

 

what Daemon did and his reaction was legitimately nothing less than what happened with Roberts Rebellion   AAn arrest warrant was made, this triggered those who would be arrested to defend themselves and those who stood with them to call their banners   Neither of which had been done until the arrest warrant had been proclaimed  

 

And while doing this Bloodraven lights the tinder box that was the Blackfyre sympathizers and allows himself to get rid of any non Targaryen loyalists or Blackfyre family under the guise of executing them for disloyalty- even though none had been perpetrated.  And then who kills Daemon and his sons? Bloodraven, just as a supposed “simple archer” slew Glendon Fireball.  A simple archer can be explained by Bloodraven with a glamour, as we know he implied such Magic’s  

 

The outcome was everything Bloodraven ever wanted  Bittersteel exiled in disgrace, House Blackfyre made into outlaws, and then put himself on the top of the rewards pile- even though Daemon nor any of his sons had even spoken out about any of the wrongs did him, nor did he ever use his support to undermine Daeron in anyway UNTIL he was called to be arrested   
 

the House Blackfyre rebellion was simply Roberts Rebellion without having the Targaryen loyalists lose  

 

 

 

 

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For a moment I thought this will be an anti Blackfyre post and I was ready to fight. Daemon loving Daenerys and Aegor wanting to marry Calla are ridiculous stories to me tbh. 

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6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

For a moment I thought this will be an anti Blackfyre post and I was ready to fight. Daemon loving Daenerys and Aegor wanting to marry Calla are ridiculous stories to me tbh. 

Nah, Daemon seemed to be an asshole and got what he deserved.

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Some point to the Dornish influence of King Daeron II .  The Dornish marriage and therefore merging of the Dornish customs into the Court was done under this regency, but Daeron had been married for years and had ruled for years with Daemon so much as raising any type of issue or voice about him caring of such things.  Daemon  Blackfyre was a revered Knight and man, and his thoughts and actions are pretty well documented- there is no record of animosity and his actions show none as well   
 the counselors that surrounded Daemon had cajoled and tried to manipulate Daemon since his father Aegon IV had put Blackfyre into his hands, and especially when whispers of Daeron supposedly being aired by Aemon the Dragonknight abounded, anyone who was anti Dornish became part of the Blackfyre camp  yet Daemn did not stir for at least 8 years before rebelling, but even then a very particular incident occurred  

 

 

 Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilites and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard brother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender. SSM

 

It has been said in the years after Daemon Blackfyre proved a traitor that his hatred of Daeron began to grow early. It was Aegon’s desire—not Daemon’s—that he be wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Instead, Daemon had developed a passion for Daeron’s sister, young Princess Daenerys. Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings rule in matters of state. Aegon saw more profit in a tie to Tyrosh, perhaps because its fleet would be of use if he made another attempt to conquer Dorne. This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne. Whether Daenerys loved Daemon, as those who rose for the Black Dragon later claimed, who could say? In the years afterward, Daenerys was never aught but a loyal wife to Prince Maron, and if she mourned Daemon Blackfyre, she left no record of it. Glydan

 

Daemon's actions and thoughts are not well documented given the fact that we know little and less about Aegon's IV reign, in relation of his bastards and trueborn children, we know even less of Daeron's 25 years reign.

But both Martin  and the Black Dragon's supporters claimed that Daenerys' marriage was the moment when Daemon started to hate Daeron, just as Harrenhall was the moment Robert started hating Rhaegar and Martin even tells us that both brothers had clashed a few times, so their relationship seems far more stormy Yandel let us know but Yandel did say that Daemon surrounded himself with plotters by sheer vanity, i believe him here, until the treason overtook him.

 

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

-The fact that anti Dornish lords, martial Knights, and Daeron doubters had surrounded Daemon was no secret  while Daemon did not raise a voice and seemingly got along with Daeron, there was one who stood beside Daeron that eventually convinced the King and Council to arrest Daemon, though he had done nothing nor crowned himself at all  

 

This person was of course Bloodraven, and he definitely had more reason to act less than honorably  he shared the affections of his sister Shiera Seastar with his hated brother Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel  

He had decided to crown himself, that was he was arrested, had he actually crowned himself, he'd be directly executed and what has Daemon to do with Bloodraven and Bittersteel bickering over Shiera?? I don't understand this.

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

He also knew that Daeron was a bastard (perhaps) and that the House of Blackfyre while it existed with such support would always be an existential and political threat to House Targaryen- especially since Aegon IV had legitimized all his bastards.  So what does he do even though Daeron has ruled for 8 years without any issue with Daemon? He waits for a particular time and then sends men to arrest Daemon and his supporters  

 

Since Daeron being a bastard was a lie Aegon himself invented because his son didn't let him enter in another unwinnable war i really doubt he knew Daeron was a bastard.

If Daemon was truly loyal he would've handed over the traitors to his brother, he didn't do  it tho.

 

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

what Daemon did and his reaction was legitimately nothing less than what happened with Roberts Rebellion   AAn arrest warrant was made, this triggered those who would be arrested to defend themselves and those who stood with them to call their banners   Neither of which had been done until the arrest warrant had been proclaimed  

 

False, Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's heads on the grounds of nothing, Daeron only sent men to arrest his brother, arrest not execution, start a war over an arrest, be it Tywin or Daemon Blackfyre reeks of stupidity or second intentions.

 

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

And while doing this Bloodraven lights the tinder box that was the Blackfyre sympathizers and allows himself to get rid of any non Targaryen loyalists or Blackfyre family under the guise of executing them for disloyalty- even though none had been perpetrated.  And then who kills Daemon and his sons? Bloodraven, just as a supposed “simple archer” slew Glendon Fireball.  A simple archer can be explained by Bloodraven with a glamour, as we know he implied such Magic’s  

 

How so?? Daemon might perfectly prevailed?? If Bloodraven had killed Fireball there would be no reason not to tell it was Bloodraven's doing.

 

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

The outcome was everything Bloodraven ever wanted  Bittersteel exiled in disgrace, House Blackfyre made into outlaws, and then put himself on the top of the rewards pile- even though Daemon nor any of his sons had even spoken out about any of the wrongs did him, nor did he ever use his support to undermine Daeron in anyway UNTIL he was called to be arrested   

Ypu don't know that do you.

 

 

6 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

the House Blackfyre rebellion was simply Roberts Rebellion without having the Targaryen loyalists lose  

 

While i agree Robert and the Black Dragon share very similar traits, both rebellions couldn't be more differents, in basis, moral high ground and ofc the outcome.

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The idea that Bloodraven - who was barely twenty years old when the First Blackfyre Rebellion began - was already some kind of political mastermind with a clear agenda at that point doesn't make much sense. If he had been as sly and competent as he seems to be later he would have simply killed Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel before there was a rebellion.

Also, it makes really no sense to make proclamations about Daemon Blackfyre's character while we have no firsthand knowledge of the man. Eustace Osgrey talks a little bit about him, but he wasn't exactly his closest friend. Yandel doesn't really cite firsthand sources on Daemon Blackfyre, nor do we have a detailed picture of Daemon's childhood, youth, and his relationship with Daeron II during the latter's reign.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Bloodraven - who was barely twenty years old when the First Blackfyre Rebellion began - was already some kind of political mastermind with a clear agenda at that point doesn't make much sense. If he had been as sly and competent as he seems to be later he would have simply killed Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel before there was a rebellion.

Also, it makes really no sense to make proclamations about Daemon Blackfyre's character while we have no firsthand knowledge of the man. Eustace Osgrey talks a little bit about him, but he wasn't exactly his closest friend. Yandel doesn't really cite firsthand sources on Daemon Blackfyre, nor do we have a detailed picture of Daemon's childhood, youth, and his relationship with Daeron II during the latter's reign.

While that’s true we also know that Daemon has been described as competent and charismatic by more than one person.   Charismatic of course doesn’t mean a great or nice person, but it does seem to be one of the more positive characteristics used to describe balanced characters.  Daemon never did anything outright evil, selfish, or cruel that we know of.  
 

Also Bloodraven being in his early 20s and capable makes about as much sense as Robb Stark being in his late teens and actually winning a war against Tywin Lannister. I don’t know how it doesn’t make sense that Bloodraven would already be making big moves in a world where he was already an adult. 

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6 hours ago, frenin said:

Nah, Daemon seemed to be an asshole and got what he deserved.

 

 

 Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilites and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard brother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender. SSM

 

It has been said in the years after Daemon Blackfyre proved a traitor that his hatred of Daeron began to grow early. It was Aegon’s desire—not Daemon’s—that he be wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Instead, Daemon had developed a passion for Daeron’s sister, young Princess Daenerys. Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings rule in matters of state. Aegon saw more profit in a tie to Tyrosh, perhaps because its fleet would be of use if he made another attempt to conquer Dorne. This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne. Whether Daenerys loved Daemon, as those who rose for the Black Dragon later claimed, who could say? In the years afterward, Daenerys was never aught but a loyal wife to Prince Maron, and if she mourned Daemon Blackfyre, she left no record of it. Glydan

 

Daemon's actions and thoughts are not well documented given the fact that we know little and less about Aegon's IV reign, in relation of his bastards and trueborn children, we know even less of Daeron's 25 years reign.

But both Martin  and the Black Dragon's supporters claimed that Daenerys' marriage was the moment when Daemon started to hate Daeron, just as Harrenhall was the moment Robert started hating Rhaegar and Martin even tells us that both brothers had clashed a few times, so their relationship seems far more stormy Yandel let us know but Yandel did say that Daemon surrounded himself with plotters by sheer vanity, i believe him here, until the treason overtook him.

 

 

He had decided to crown himself, that was he was arrested, had he actually crowned himself, he'd be directly executed and what has Daemon to do with Bloodraven and Bittersteel bickering over Shiera?? I don't understand this.

 

Since Daeron being a bastard was a lie Aegon himself invented because his son didn't let him enter in another unwinnable war i really doubt he knew Daeron was a bastard.

If Daemon was truly loyal he would've handed over the traitors to his brother, he didn't do  it tho.

 

 

False, Aerys demanded Robert and Ned's heads on the grounds of nothing, Daeron only sent men to arrest his brother, arrest not execution, start a war over an arrest, be it Tywin or Daemon Blackfyre reeks of stupidity or second intentions.

 

 

How so?? Daemon might perfectly prevailed?? If Bloodraven had killed Fireball there would be no reason not to tell it was Bloodraven's doing.

 

 

Ypu don't know that do you.

 

 

While i agree Robert and the Black Dragon share very similar traits, both rebellions couldn't be more differents, in basis, moral high ground and ofc the outcome.


 

the quote on Dorne is legitimately followed with 

“If Singers could be believed” 

Also theres nothing but that conjecture, mostly made by singers and people who are guessing, that show Daemon somehow had an issue with Daeron. Why would he wait 8 years for Daeron to be king? Or why wouldn’t he idk, ring himself in a better defense before trying to reach for the throne? 
 

 

-Daeron being a bastard is never ever proven to be a lie. We don’t know the truth. The fact that there is rumor and we know for a fact that Aemon loves Nerys, it could be possible. However whether it’s true or not, Daemon never seemingly used it against Daeron as part of his campaign from what we know, only that his councilors used it to try and create a schism. 
 

-if you look at the timeline

Daemon's decision to claim the throne had been made rashly, and word soon reached Daeron's court that Daemon meant to declare within a month. It has been suggested by Archmaester Merion that Brynden Rivers, another one of Aegon IV's bastard sons, was involved in the news reaching Daeron.

 

Daemon had “meant” to declare for the throne, and even then was within a fortnight. This case to them EXACTLY from Bloodraven. 

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that Bloodraven - who was barely twenty years old when the First Blackfyre Rebellion began - was already some kind of political mastermind with a clear agenda at that point doesn't make much sense. If he had been as sly and competent as he seems to be later he would have simply killed Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel before there was a rebellion.

Also, it makes really no sense to make proclamations about Daemon Blackfyre's character while we have no firsthand knowledge of the man. Eustace Osgrey talks a little bit about him, but he wasn't exactly his closest friend. Yandel doesn't really cite firsthand sources on Daemon Blackfyre, nor do we have a detailed picture of Daemon's childhood, youth, and his relationship with Daeron II during the latter's reign.

Also it is even stated in Daemon’s character- the news about Daemon “impending” crowning came from the Archmaester and Brynden Rivers.....so yeah, Bloodraven was making moves. 

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13 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

For a moment I thought this will be an anti Blackfyre post and I was ready to fight. Daemon loving Daenerys and Aegor wanting to marry Calla are ridiculous stories to me tbh. 

I also think those stories are ridiculous and the Daemon -Daenerys love affair is just fodder for singers. There was nothing in Daemons actions, or Daenerys’ that proved that there was any grudges created from their marriages.  maybe it sucked for them, but Daemon never pulled a Brandon Stark and went to court demanding her return.  
 

Bittersteel loving Shiera I think could be true, but only because Shiera liked playing games with men.  The true schism was from Bloodraven and Bittersteel 

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3 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

the quote on Dorne is legitimately followed with 

“If Singers could be believed” 

Also theres nothing but that conjecture, mostly made by singers and people who are guessing, that show Daemon somehow had an issue with Daeron. Why would he wait 8 years for Daeron to be king? Or why wouldn’t he idk, ring himself in a better defense before trying to reach for the throne? 

 

Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilites and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard brother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender. SSM

 

Martin's own words.

 

Daemon needed time and supports, those things are not easily gotten and he was 14 years when the Unworthy died .

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

-Daeron being a bastard is never ever proven to be a lie. We don’t know the truth. The fact that there is rumor and we know for a fact that Aemon loves Nerys, it could be possible. However whether it’s true or not, Daemon never seemingly used it against Daeron as part of his campaign from what we know, only that his councilors used it to try and create a schism. 

He did and please, don't use plausible deniability, his men are not doing that without his leave.

In this manner did the First Blackfyre Rebellion begin, in the year 196 AC. Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena’s bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Daeron the bastard. Subsequently many battles were fought between the black and red dragons in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands, and elsewhere

 

And about the bastardy.

 

The king’s quarrels with his close kin became all the worse after his son Daeron grew old enough to voice his opinions. Kaeth’s Lives of Four Kings makes it plain that the false accusations of the queen’s adultery made by Ser Morgil Hastwyck were instigated by the king himself, though at the time Aegon denied it. These claims were disproved by Ser Morgil’s death in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. That these accusations came at the same time as Aegon and Prince Daeron were quarreling over the king’s plans to launch an unprovoked war against Dorne was surely no coincidence. It was also the first (but not the last) time that Aegon threatened to name one of his bastards as his heir instead of Daeron

 

Aemon is described as the best man who ever walked the earth, not a man who would break his vows.

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Daemon's decision to claim the throne had been made rashly, and word soon reached Daeron's court that Daemon meant to declare within a month. It has been suggested by Archmaester Merion that Brynden Rivers, another one of Aegon IV's bastard sons, was involved in the news reaching Daeron.

  

Daemon had “meant” to declare for the throne, and even then was within a fortnight. This case to them EXACTLY from Bloodraven. 

I don't follw this.

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6 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilites and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard brother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender. SSM

 

Martin's own words.

 

Daemon needed time and supports, those things are not easily gotten and he was 14 years when the Unworthy died .

 

 

 

He did and please, don't use plausible deniability, his men are not doing that without his leave.

In this manner did the First Blackfyre Rebellion begin, in the year 196 AC. Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena’s bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Daeron the bastard. Subsequently many battles were fought between the black and red dragons in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands, and elsewhere

 

And about the bastardy.

 

The king’s quarrels with his close kin became all the worse after his son Daeron grew old enough to voice his opinions. Kaeth’s Lives of Four Kings makes it plain that the false accusations of the queen’s adultery made by Ser Morgil Hastwyck were instigated by the king himself, though at the time Aegon denied it. These claims were disproved by Ser Morgil’s death in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. That these accusations came at the same time as Aegon and Prince Daeron were quarreling over the king’s plans to launch an unprovoked war against Dorne was surely no coincidence. It was also the first (but not the last) time that Aegon threatened to name one of his bastards as his heir instead of Daeron

 

Aemon is described as the best man who ever walked the earth, not a man who would break his vows.

 

 

 

I don't follw this.

-That SSM talks about “clashes” and never about hatred. Not to mention from the NEWER material that we get, it’s proven and even questioned by many of the Maesters as to why Daemon didn’t act or spurn his marriage if he really loved another. I mean look at Daemon from the Rogue Prince- there’s a far cry between his action and the actions of Daemon Blackfyre. 
 

 

-A trial by combat in no way disproves the Daeron is a bastard theory. Not in the least. By the same logic, Tyrion was absolutely guilty of killing Joffrey. 
 

not to mention Aemon could have been honorable but still had an asterisk to his name. Look at Jon and Ned. Both are honorable to the point of foolishness and can definitely have moral superiority over 95% of characters- does not mean they didn’t have secrets or did a couple things questionable. The fact is we don’t know. A trial by combat in this world has been proven to be a hilariously terrible way of determining facts. 
 

 

-The last excerpt proves that Daemon had NOT crowned himself at the time when the arrests were being sent out. It was said he was planning to crown himself, on information given to the crown by Brynden Rivers and the Archmaester. We know at least one of those had something to gain by bringing suspicion to the crown about the Blackfyres. Especially since Bittersteel was a staunch friend to this camp. We also know that Bloodraven is not above at best manipulating and at worst outright lying to get his way. 
And from that information which I believe came from WOIAF, we know that the crown didn’t wait for Daemon to actually crown himself,  but put the cart before the horse and simply made a decision based on a suspicion. At this point Daemon still could have decided not to crown himself or maybe it was bad information. 

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17 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

-That SSM talks about “clashes” and never about hatred. Not to mention from the NEWER material that we get, it’s proven and even questioned by many of the Maesters as to why Daemon didn’t act or spurn his marriage if he really loved another. I mean look at Daemon from the Rogue Prince- there’s a far cry between his action and the actions of Daemon Blackfyre. 

It has been said in the years after Daemon Blackfyre proved a traitor that his hatred of Daeron began to grow early. It was Aegon’s desire—not Daemon’s—that he be wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Instead, Daemon had developed a passion for Daeron’s sister, young Princess Daenerys. Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings rule in matters of state. Aegon saw more profit in a tie to Tyrosh, perhaps because its fleet would be of use if he made another attempt to conquer Dorne. This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne. Whether Daenerys loved Daemon, as those who rose for the Black Dragon later claimed, who could say? In the years afterward, Daenerys was never aught but a loyal wife to Prince Maron, and if she mourned Daemon Blackfyre, she left no record of it. Glydan

 

Daemon allegedly only started to truly hate Daeron after Daenerys marriage but eben before that, his clashes with Daeron shouldn't have been pretty if Daeron pondered them when he married Daenys to Maron.

What could Daemon do?? Daemon was already married and nobles marry at the command of the Head of the House, they don't marry for love. And the point is that we simply we don't know, there're a lot of voids to fill about what happened.

 

 

17 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

-A trial by combat in no way disproves the Daeron is a bastard theory. Not in the least. By the same logic, Tyrion was absolutely guilty of killing Joffrey. 

 

The king’s quarrels with his close kin became all the worse after his son Daeron grew old enough to voice his opinions. Kaeth’s Lives of Four Kings makes it plain that the false accusations of the queen’s adultery made by Ser Morgil Hastwyck were instigated by the king himself, though at the time Aegon denied it. These claims were disproved by Ser Morgil’s death in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. That these accusations came at the same time as Aegon and Prince Daeron were quarreling over the king’s plans to launch an unprovoked war against Dorne was surely no coincidence. It was also the first (but not the last) time that Aegon threatened to name one of his bastards as his heir instead of Daeron Yandel/Kaeth.

 

 

17 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

not to mention Aemon could have been honorable but still had an asterisk to his name. Look at Jon and Ned. Both are honorable to the point of foolishness and can definitely have moral superiority over 95% of characters- does not mean they didn’t have secrets or did a couple things questionable. The fact is we don’t know. A trial by combat in this world has been proven to be a hilariously terrible way of determining facts. 

To the point of dying for a brother he disliked and allegedly cuckolded?? Unlikely 

 

 

17 minutes ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

The last excerpt proves that Daemon had NOT crowned himself at the time when the arrests were being sent out. It was said he was planning to crown himself, on information given to the crown by Brynden Rivers and the Archmaester. We know at least one of those had something to gain by bringing suspicion to the crown about the Blackfyres. Especially since Bittersteel was a staunch friend to this camp. We also know that Bloodraven is not above at best manipulating and at worst outright lying to get his way. 
And from that information which I believe came from WOIAF, we know that the crown didn’t wait for Daemon to actually crown himself,  but put the cart before the horse and simply made a decision based on a suspicion. At this point Daemon still could have decided not to crown himself or maybe it was bad information. 

Ofc he hadn't we are never told he had.

 

We are told he would do it and that's why Daeron tried to arrest him, had he actually tried, he would've been straight up executed, Daemon was Bloodraven's brother, it makes absolutely no sense Bloodraven would just try to kill his brother because Bittersteel liked him more.

Waiting for Daemon to crown himself is simply stupid.

 

 

Edited by frenin

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9 minutes ago, frenin said:

It has been said in the years after Daemon Blackfyre proved a traitor that his hatred of Daeron began to grow early. It was Aegon’s desire—not Daemon’s—that he be wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh. Instead, Daemon had developed a passion for Daeron’s sister, young Princess Daenerys. Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings rule in matters of state. Aegon saw more profit in a tie to Tyrosh, perhaps because its fleet would be of use if he made another attempt to conquer Dorne. This seems plausible enough, but a different tale claims that Daemon was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre’s partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely. Not only did Daeron refuse to permit his brother more than one wife, but he also gave Daenerys’s hand to Maron Martell, as part of the bargain to finally unite the Seven Kingdoms with Dorne. Whether Daenerys loved Daemon, as those who rose for the Black Dragon later claimed, who could say? In the years afterward, Daenerys was never aught but a loyal wife to Prince Maron, and if she mourned Daemon Blackfyre, she left no record of it. Glydan

 

Daemon allegedly only started to truly hate Daeron after Daenerys marriage but eben before that, his clashes with Daeron shouldn't have been pretty if Daeron pondered them when he married Daenys to Maron.

What could Daemon do?? Daemon was already married and nobles marry at the command of the Head of the House, they don't marry for love. And the point is that we simply we don't know, there're a lot of voids to fill about what happened.

 

 

 

The king’s quarrels with his close kin became all the worse after his son Daeron grew old enough to voice his opinions. Kaeth’s Lives of Four Kings makes it plain that the false accusations of the queen’s adultery made by Ser Morgil Hastwyck were instigated by the king himself, though at the time Aegon denied it. These claims were disproved by Ser Morgil’s death in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. That these accusations came at the same time as Aegon and Prince Daeron were quarreling over the king’s plans to launch an unprovoked war against Dorne was surely no coincidence. It was also the first (but not the last) time that Aegon threatened to name one of his bastards as his heir instead of Daeron Yandel/Kaeth.

 

 

To the point of dying for a brother he disliked and allegedly cuckolded?? Unlikely 

 

 

Ofc he hadn't we are never told he had.

 

We are told he would do it and that's why Daeron tried to arrest him, had he actually tried, he would've been straight up executed, Daemon was Bloodraven's brother, it makes absolutely no sense Bloodraven would just try to kill his brother because Bittersteel liked him more.

Waiting for Daemon to crown himself is simply stupid.

 

 

You are operating on the facts that what Bloodraven had told them was true without any bias. Why would he use it to kill Bittersteel? Because Bloodraven wanted to end them and also protect the realm. 
 

Waiting for him to crown himself is tantamount to waiting to see if someone actually commits an action of treason. Especially when it appears that the news was simply coming from someone we know later on to be dishonorable. Why not a summons of Daemon? Why send people to arrest him instead of trying to see if the King would summon Daemon and Daemon would shirk it and therefore actually become an action of treason instead of just Bloodraven saying that he was possibly thinking of crowning himself, in a fortnight.  A summons would have been much more intelligent and if Daemon was intent on rebelling, it would have lead to war anyway. But sending people to arrest him was truly the first act of aggression. 
 

Also there is no question that Aegon IV utilized the rumor of Daeron’s bastardy. But he only did so as an attempt to control Daeron, he is not at all the one who originated the rumor. It was Ser Morgil and it was only “dismissed” simply because he lost a trial by combat- something I’ve already shown is dubious at proving the truth. 
 

Not to mention this, if Daemon truly hated Daeron he could have used that same bastardy like Stannis did with Joffrey and proclaim him a bastard to the realm. He himself is never recorded of doing this at all. 
 

What you are left with is a dubious timeline in which the maesters themselves even acknowledge that the love affair of Daenerys and Daemon were spruced up by the singers, and a supposed “hatred” of Daeron by Daemon, even though he waited 8 years to act against Daeron, and only rebelled when the Crown sent troops to arrest- not question, not summon- Daemon based on a tip from a person (Bloodraven), that we know has an attitude of ends justify the means and has traded honor for results, and who had a motivation to demonize that faction since his main rival for the love of his life was part of said group.  
there is no record of any specific quarrels between Daemon and Daeron, especially none with love, and if anything Daemon had a schism based on having bad counselors and conspiracies around him. The same that Daeron had. This was truly a war of Bloodraven v Bittersteel. 

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Not to mention the fact that even Aemon in his conversation to Jon casts doubt on Daerons paternity. 
 

 

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I think Daemon seems like a bit of a Targaryen vanity plate. The fact that he looked more Targaryen than his true born brother the king may be a foil to Jon and Robb. That may have gone to his head. Rebelling later doesn't really prove anything, he could have been stewing in silence the whole time.

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4 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Not to mention the fact that even Aemon in his conversation to Jon casts doubt on Daerons paternity. 

Aemon does? I thought that was the Old Bear. 

Rumors followed Daeron everywhere and seem politically (and "racially") motivated. It seems desperate like the Obama's birth certificate folks. I dont think he was a true bastard for that reason, plus we already have two false princes with Joffrey and fAegon. We don't need another. If he's a good king (which he seemed to be) that's really all that should matter. Wars over Targaryen blood purity are pathetic.

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12 hours ago, frenin said:

While i agree Robert and the Black Dragon share very similar traits, both rebellions couldn't be more differents, in basis, moral high ground and ofc the outcome.

Yeah, I think GRRM will continue to draw contrasts between the two Rebellions, rather than draw more similarities because it's just more interesting to write it differently than a repeat. While there are misunderstandings on both sides in both Rebellions, Robert's involved way more unreasonable actions on the part of the crown. 

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7 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

You are operating on the facts that what Bloodraven had told them was true without any bias. Why would he use it to kill Bittersteel? Because Bloodraven wanted to end them and also protect the realm. 

No, i'm operating on the facts that Bloodraven having a beef with one brother don't imply him having a beef with others, that's the kind of thing we simply don't know, Brynden trying to kill Daemon because he hates Bittersteel is just nonsense bu this point.

 

7 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Waiting for him to crown himself is tantamount to waiting to see if someone actually commits an action of treason. Especially when it appears that the news was simply coming from someone we know later on to be dishonorable. Why not a summons of Daemon? Why send people to arrest him instead of trying to see if the King would summon Daemon and Daemon would shirk it and therefore actually become an action of treason instead of just Bloodraven saying that he was possibly thinking of crowning himself, in a fortnight.  A summons would have been much more intelligent and if Daemon was intent on rebelling, it would have lead to war anyway. But sending people to arrest him was truly the first act of aggression. 

Which would be again stupid, is like waiting for a bomb alert to actually happen before taking steps to prevent it, Daeron didn't send for his head, he, as far as we know ofc, just tried to arrest him.

Why not summon?? Because they wanted to prevent precisely what happened a war, they didn't care if Daemon looked like a traitor, they wanted ot end the flames before forest fire.

Btw Bloodraven be in dishonorable some 34 years later when all the Blackfyre rebellions had really become a pain in the ass is really nothing.

 

8 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Also there is no question that Aegon IV utilized the rumor of Daeron’s bastardy. But he only did so as an attempt to control Daeron, he is not at all the one who originated the rumor. It was Ser Morgil and it was only “dismissed” simply because he lost a trial by combat- something I’ve already shown is dubious at proving the truth. 

 

The king’s quarrels with his close kin became all the worse after his son Daeron grew old enough to voice his opinions. Kaeth’s Lives of Four Kings makes it plain that the false accusations of the queen’s adultery made by Ser Morgil Hastwyck were instigated by the king himself, though at the time Aegon denied it. These claims were disproved by Ser Morgil’s death in a trial by combat against the Dragonknight. That these accusations came at the same time as Aegon and Prince Daeron were quarreling over the king’s plans to launch an unprovoked war against Dorne was surely no coincidence. It was also the first (but not the last) time that Aegon threatened to name one of his bastards as his heir instead of Daeron Yandel/Kaeth.

 

 

8 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Not to mention this, if Daemon truly hated Daeron he could have used that same bastardy like Stannis did with Joffrey and proclaim him a bastard to the realm. He himself is never recorded of doing this at all. 

He did and please, don't use plausible deniability, his men are not doing that without his leave.

In this manner did the First Blackfyre Rebellion begin, in the year 196 AC. Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena’s bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Daeron the bastard. Subsequently many battles were fought between the black and red dragons in the Vale, the westerlands, the riverlands, and elsewhere

 

 

8 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

What you are left with is a dubious timeline in which the maesters themselves even acknowledge that the love affair of Daenerys and Daemon were spruced up by the singers, and a supposed “hatred” of Daeron by Daemon, even though he waited 8 years to act against Daeron, and only rebelled when the Crown sent troops to arrest- not question, not summon- Daemon based on a tip from a person (Bloodraven), that we know has an attitude of ends justify the means and has traded honor for results, and who had a motivation to demonize that faction since his main rival for the love of his life was part of said group.  

The singers are not the only ones who talk about the love affair, the Blacks also do it and so does Martin and Doran.

Daeron didn't send any troops, he sent his KG to arrest him and rebelling because of that is just stupid, Daemon could simply explain the misunderstanding couldn't he??

Bloodraven didn't have any bickering with Daemon as far as we know, Bloodraven trying to kill and disgrace Daemon beause Bittersteel loved Shiera is just stupid, said by you or said by Martin himself, it'd be the stupidest reasoning we'd have for brothers betraying brothers so far.

 

 

8 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

 there is no record of any specific quarrels between Daemon and Daeron, especially none with love, and if anything Daemon had a schism based on having bad counselors and conspiracies around him. The same that Daeron had. This was truly a war of Bloodraven v Bittersteel. 

The later wars would indeed become a Bloodraven v Bittersteel, the first one, not so much and about the fights.

 

Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Daeron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love. There had been many years of fighting with Dorne, and failure to bring them into the Seven Kingdoms while not being able to keep them from harassing the Seven Kingdoms. So he realized that where violence failed, perhaps marriage could bring an end to hostilites and so he uses his sister to make an alliance with the prince of Dorne. It's a political marriage, pure and simple, a convenient marriage to guarantee a union between Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. And also, he prefers to give his sister to the prince of Dorne over a bastard brother with whom he'd already had a few clashes and whom too many people were looking one as a legitimate claimant to the throne or rightful king. That was the straw that broke the camel's back, and helps lead to Daemon becoming the first Blackfyre Pretender. SSM

 

Martin himself says that.

  • Daemon and Daenerys were in love.
  • Daeron and Daemon had already clashed and people were looking to Daemon as rightful king.
  • Daenerys marrying Maron was indeed a point of no return between Daemon  and Doran.

 

 

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11 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

While that’s true we also know that Daemon has been described as competent and charismatic by more than one person.   Charismatic of course doesn’t mean a great or nice person, but it does seem to be one of the more positive characteristics used to describe balanced characters.  Daemon never did anything outright evil, selfish, or cruel that we know of.

Aside from claiming the throne, you mean? Even if Daeron II unjustly wanted to imprison Daemon Blackfyre (and I don't buy that) then this doesn't make Daemon Blackfyre the king. Daeron II was the crowned and anointed king, and his heirs were his four sons and their children, not his bastard half-brother who happens to be a younger son of Aegon IV.

At this point our best approximation to Daemon Blackfyre's character - his character, not his strength at arms - would be his son, Daemon II. Daemon II seemed to model himself very much on his father, meaning Daemon I could very well have been a pretty decent guy - albeit not that smart or politically savvy. The kind of king Robert would have been had he not became a drunkard and whoremonger.

11 hours ago, OberynBlackfyre said:

Also Bloodraven being in his early 20s and capable makes about as much sense as Robb Stark being in his late teens and actually winning a war against Tywin Lannister. I don’t know how it doesn’t make sense that Bloodraven would already be making big moves in a world where he was already an adult. 

Sure, he may already have doing stuff, and I certainly could see Bloodraven keeping his eyes on Bittersteel may have led him to uncover the conspiracy to make Daemon king. But what I very much doubt is that a Bloodraven around twenty was already a powerful political player who could mastermind a conspiracy that plunged the Realm into civil war. Bloodraven seems to have come into his own during the Blackfyre Rebellion. It is what made him really prominent.

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I think that the real reason for the Blackfyre Rebellion is Duncan the Tall, who in my opinion is a bastard-son of princess Daenerys and Daemon Blackfyre.

In 193 Duncan's master, Ser Arlan of Pennytree, had defeated the Bastard of Harrenhal in a melee during tournament held at King's Landing. I think that that tournament was part of Daeron's birthday festivities. My guess is that Duncan was conceived when Daenerys came to King's Landing to attend her brother's 40s birthday, and was reunited with Daemon for the first time since her wedding with Maron Martell.

Could be that the chipped garnet that Ser Arlan had is a piece of Blackfyre sword. Garnet is a red stone and Blackfyre's pommel is also decorated with a red stone. Ser Quentyn Ball and his death (most likely he was killed either by one of Raven's Teeth or even by Bloodraven himself) has something to do with the reason why Daemon's little son ended up alone on a streets of King's Landing. Could be that before or in the span of the Blackfyre Rebellion little Duncan for some period of time was staying at Duskendale town or Dun Fort, which is a castle of House Darklyn who were Lords of Duskendale at that time. So Dunk's name is not his real name, it's just a fragment of what he remembers from his early childhood, it's the place where he was staying.

Probably the reason why King Daeron ordered to arrest Daemon is because he found out about Daemon's affair with Daenerys and that they had a bastard-child. Or that child's existence wasn't a secret for King Daeron, and the reason why Daemon finally decided to rebell against his brother is because the King refused to legitimize Daemon's bastard-son.

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6 hours ago, frenin said:

Daeron didn't send any troops, he sent his KG to arrest him and rebelling because of that is just stupid, Daemon could simply explain the misunderstanding couldn't he??

 

That is very unfair.

You don't submit yourself to a juri that hate your guts. Daeron as yourself said, already had problems with his brother. Prison is just one step away from execution.

Daeron should have summoned Daemon, before trying to imprison him, for a crime that at the very least he didn't commited in that moment.

 

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