The most interesting Targaryen king to read about

[Jeeves]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Regardless of the wars he had to fight - Aegon V is one of the greatest kings of Westeros, period, simply because he bettered the lives of the commoners.

It doesn't matter that he had to fight against the bloody nobles throughout most of his reign. A peace with the nobility at the price of them grinding the common man other their heel is no peace at all.

 

3 hours ago, frenin said:

A great King?? Sure, a succesful one?? Nope, that and  the fact he had to fight his nobles and  most of his reign was just fire and  steel don't better the life of no one if said nobles don't oblige in their lands, which most of them wouldn't do anyway and which should be the point of his policies, the fact that he proved unwilling to rule over his children and let them have his way in a moment he desperatly needed the support of those bloody nobles to carry on with his policies also don't say much good about him, even his son got to overrule  his father and  married Aerys and  Rhaella.

Egg is an earlier version  of the Stannis "King who cared" meme, it seems that failing miserably is a common trope of the meme.

Egg had the right idea but he didn't have the tools to get it done.  As we have seen time and again, it is the High Lords who are the problem.  The HL and the other intermediaries between the monarch and the people.  The intermediaries want to keep their power and do their own thing.  Egg had his failings with his children.  He let the heart win over the brain.  It caused issues to be sure but nothing too significant.  It was his desire to help the people that drove him to try to bring back the dragons.  He almost ended the dynasty with his stunt.  His great-grandaughter, our Queen Daenerys, will be better prepared to carry out his legacy of helping people, albeit in the East.  Westeros will be experiencing the Ice Age for a long time.  Things like government will cease to exists in Westeros until the season changes back to spring and summer.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

A great King?? Sure, a succesful one?? Nope, that and  the fact he had to fight his nobles and  most of his reign was just fire and  steel don't better the life of no one if said nobles don't oblige in their lands, which most of them wouldn't do anyway and which should be the point of his policies, the fact that he proved unwilling to rule over his children and let them have his way in a moment he desperatly needed the support of those bloody nobles to carry on with his policies also don't say much good about him, even his son got to overrule  his father and  married Aerys and  Rhaella.

Egg is an earlier version  of the Stannis "King who cared" meme, it seems that failing miserably is a common trope of the meme.

One should overplay this 'Egg had rebellions to deal with'. We know literally zero about the nature of those, nor anything about what issues they caused for the population. No great house of note was destroyed during Aegon V's reign, meaning the troubles he faced cannot have been that bad. He prevailed and if there had been such lords as who were defeated and had made very great problems for him they would have been attainted and destroyed.

Whatever troubles his children caused him was dealt with early in his reign (in 239 & 240 AC, and there is no indication that the Tullys or Tyrells rebelled over this - just Lord Lyonel did).

Overall people fool themselves into believing 'we would know stuff if important things had happened during somebody's reign'. Prior to FaB we had no complete history of the Targaryen reign - Aegon III's reign can still be full of various wars, just as there could be serious troubles in the reigns of many other kings, even such kings as Baelor, Aegon IV, and Daeron II about who we think we know a lot already.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Egg had the right idea but he didn't have the tools to get it done.  As we have seen time and again, it is the High Lords who are the problem.  The HL and the other intermediaries between the monarch and the people.  The intermediaries want to keep their power and do their own thing.  Egg had his failings with his children.  He let the heart win over the brain.  It caused issues to be sure but nothing too significant.  It was his desire to help the people that drove him to try to bring back the dragons.  He almost ended the dynasty with his stunt.  His great-grandaughter, our Queen Daenerys, will be better prepared to carry out his legacy of helping people, albeit in the East.  Westeros will be experiencing the Ice Age for a long time.  Things like government will cease to exists in Westeros until the season changes back to spring and summer.

See above. Also, Egg's reforms had an effect. The lives of the commoners were bettered. He didn't get as far as he wanted to, sure, but he still had some success and Yandel points out that he made a considerable difference - such reforms as he forced through were only abolished by his own son, Jaehaerys II, and then by Tywin under Aerys II.

[frenin]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One should overplay this 'Egg had rebellions to deal with'. We know literally zero about the nature of those, nor anything about what issues they caused for the population. No great house of note was destroyed during Aegon V's reign, meaning the troubles he faced cannot have been that bad. He prevailed and if there had been such lords as who were defeated and had made very great problems for him they would have been attainted and destroyed.

Or maybe he couldn't destroy any Great House of note, if Egg was facing and quelling rebellions  left and  right, the idea that he could make a Rains is far fetched, being nice.  Even a rebellion of Lyonel Baratheon shouldn't have been that serious... Had Egg counted with the support of the nobility to quell it... Even before the Bells, Aerys and  many thought the Robellion was nothing to worry  about. Egg simply wouldn't have the power, or the will giving that said action would've hardened his enemies hearts forever, to de al effectively with major rebels.

And i don't know what makes you think that he prevailed, we are told that the man had tp let his nobles have their way many times and  that was killing him.

At the end of the day, if Aegon don't have the complicity of the nobility, his policies.  are utterly useless, not even the Crownlands  lords  would feel like obliging.

 

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Whatever troubles his children caused him was dealt with early in his reign (in 239 & 240 AC, and there is no indication that the Tullys or Tyrells rebelled over this - just Lord Lyonel did).

You sure?? 

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

Barry  B is clear that not only Egg made bitter  enemies when he could have made faat friends, I'd argue however that creating more Robert's couldn't have ended well for the Targ dynasty but the folk needed those marriages,  but  that treason and  turmoil followed... And he clearly links the treason and  turmoil that followed with Summerhall.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall people fool themselves into believing 'we would know stuff if important things had happened during somebody's reign'. Prior to FaB we had no complete history of the Targaryen reign - Aegon III's reign can still be full of various wars, just as there could be serious troubles in the reigns of many other kings, even such kings as Baelor, Aegon IV, and Daeron II about who we think we know a lot already.

No one is pretending knowing all the things that happen, but if we aren't told there were wars during Aegon 3 reign and  we are told that Egg's reign was full of them, it's odd that might change.

Overall, with all we know till now, Egg's reign just can't be considered succesful, we are not even told how the economics  were during his reign, how the hell could he afford waging constant  wars against his own bannermen?? An even great King is something needs to be evaluate, good or ok would be a fairer term, but that's up to the judge.

 

 

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

He let the heart win over the brain.  It caused issues to be sure but nothing too significant. 

We are told it was significant tho.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

Or maybe he couldn't destroy any Great House of note, if Egg was facing and quelling rebellions  left and  right, the idea that he could make a Rains is far fetched, being nice.  Even a rebellion of Lyonel Baratheon shouldn't have been that serious... Had Egg counted with the support of the nobility to quell it... Even before the Bells, Aerys and  many thought the Robellion was nothing to worry  about. Egg simply wouldn't have the power, or the will giving that said action would've hardened his enemies hearts forever, to de al effectively with major rebels.

Daeron II exiled many important knights and lords, and didn't pull a Castamere or Duskendale, either. But no great house of note was forced out of Westeros during the reign of Aegon V as far as we know.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

And i don't know what makes you think that he prevailed, we are told that the man had tp let his nobles have their way many times and  that was killing him.

He could not force through the more radical reforms he had drawn up. We have no reason to imagine Aegon V's reign as constant rebellions against him as king, but defiance against his reforms.

One can imagine Egg granting his subjects this or that right against their lords ... the lords ignoring them, and then some peasant petitioning the king about this or that injustice done by this or that lord - and the king then marching against said lord to push him to accept his decrees ... the lord paying lip service, and then everything returning back to the status quo ante as soon as the king's men had left.

If Aegon V had faced massive rebellions with the goal to depose he would have been deposed. He couldn't have possible defeated a great coalition of the lords, especially if crucial great houses had turned against him. In fact, if the Reach alone had risen in rebellion against him - and most of the other houses at stayed neutral or sent only token forces to support him - he would have been finished.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

At the end of the day, if Aegon don't have the complicity of the nobility, his policies.  are utterly useless, not even the Crownlands  lords  would feel like obliging.

That you pulled out of your ass. There is no indication it was that bad.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

You sure?? 

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

 

Barry  B is clear that not only Egg made bitter  enemies when he could have made faat friends, I'd argue however that creating more Robert's couldn't have ended well for the Targ dynasty but the folk needed those marriages,  and  that treason and  turmoil followed... And he clearly links the treason and  turmoil that followed with Harrenhall.

This can theoretically only refer to treason and turmoil caused by Lyonel. I certainly don't think it is impossible the Tyrells, Tullys, and Redwynes also did something to vex and angry the king, but at this point we have no basis to say they rose in open rebellion.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

No one is pretending knowing all the things that happen, but if we aren't told there were wars during Aegon 3 reign and  we are told that Egg's reign was full of them, it's odd that might change.

A reign full of wars - if the king fought the right wars - is still not necessarily an unsusccessful reign. And Aegon V didn't leave a kingdom turned into a ruin by war.

[frenin]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Daeron II exiled many important knights and lords, and didn't pull a Castamere or Duskendale, either. But no great house of note was forced out of Westeros during the reign of Aegon V as far as we know.

Daeron had just won  a civil war, the rebels were entirely his to decide his fate, Egg however, i don't see how the man would have the strenght to pull that out, perharps some lords  were exiled/attainted but it certainly seems a hydra case.

 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He could not force through the more radical reforms he had drawn up. We have no reason to imagine Aegon V's reign as constant rebellions against him as king, but defiance against his reforms.

One can imagine Egg granting his subjects this or that right against their lords ... the lords ignoring them, and then some peasant petitioning the king about this or that injustice done by this or that lord - and the king then marching against said lord to push him to accept his decrees ... the lord paying lip service, and then everything returning back to the status quo ante as soon as the king's men had left.

If Aegon V had faced massive rebellions with the goal to depose he would have been deposed. He couldn't have possible defeated a great coalition of the lords, especially if crucial great houses had turned against him. In fact, if the Reach alone had risen in rebellion against him - and most of the other houses at stayed neutral or sent only token forces to support him - he would have been finished.

No one ever said Egg rebellions, bar Lyonel's, were against him as King, I don't really know what are you arguing here.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

This can theoretically only refer to treason and turmoil caused by Lyonel. I certainly don't think it is impossible the Tyrells, Tullys, and Redwynes also did something to vex and angry the king, but at this point we have no basis to say they rose in open rebellion.

No, We are told about two instances about the events.

In the 1st case Barry  B only talks about Duncan and  what happened with  the Baratheons. 

"The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses."

 

Then he goes his way to talk about all Egg's kids fuck ups and  what those fuck ups meant not only for the Realm but to his dynasty.

 

 All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

He's clearly making a difference here and  linking whatever those Houses did or didn't do to Egg's despair and fatal attempt in Summerhall

 

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A reign full of wars - if the king fought the right wars - is still not necessarily an unsusccessful reign. And Aegon V didn't leave a kingdom turned into a ruin by war.

A ruin?? I don't think so, a not healthy and  robust Kingdom?? I don't think so, nor do I think the man fought the right wars anyway.

 

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

Daeron had just won  a civil war, the rebels were entirely his to decide his fate, Egg however, i don't see how the man would have the strenght to pull that out, perharps some lords  were exiled/attainted but it certainly seems a hydra case.

Not sure on what you would base that. Aegon V kept his throne, i.e. the rebellions against him were unsuccessful insofar as his crown and kingship were concerned.

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

No one ever said Egg rebellions, bar Lyonel's, were against him as King, I don't really know what are you arguing here.

So you imagine without basis that there were rebellions against ... what exactly? If the king decrees something and his lords don't obey his commands and laws they are rebels and stage a rebellion. And if they had defeated the king in battle he would have been deposed or killed.

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, We are told about two instances about the events.

In the 1st case Barry  B only talks about Duncan and  what happened with  the Baratheons. 

"The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses."

 

Then he goes his way to talk about all Egg's kids fuck ups and  what those fuck ups meant not only for the Realm but to his dynasty.

 

 All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

Selmy is wrong here. Daeron did not marry. And Yandel does not mention any concrete rebellions in the wake of Jaehaerys-Shaera or Daeron, meaning that whatever happened there is not likely to have the same size as the relative minor and short affair of Lyonel's rebellion (which was dealt with in a year).

Turmoil is vague enough to not be equated or confused with 'bloody rebellions'.

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

He's clearly making a difference here and  linking whatever those Houses did or didn't do to Egg's despair and fatal attempt in Summerhall

Summerhall ended Aegon V's reign. There is no confirmation that the children stuffed caused Summerhall.

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

A ruin?? I don't think so, a not healthy and  robust Kingdom?? I don't think so, nor do I think the man fought the right wars anyway.

Sure, Jaehaerys II inherited a very strong and robust kingdom with enough of a hold to marshal a large army to invade the Stepstones and put down the Ninepenny Kings.

[frenin]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure on what you would base that. Aegon V kept his throne, i.e. the rebellions against him were unsuccessful insofar as his crown and kingship were concerned.

Quote

Since the rebellions against him weren't aimed to removed him from his Throne... Even Lyonel briefly seeked independence.

We are told the reason about the revolts and we know Egg wasn't winning.

 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So you imagine without basis that there were rebellions against ... what exactly? If the king decrees something and his lords don't obey his commands and laws they are rebels and stage a rebellion. And if they had defeated the king in battle he would have been deposed or killed.

Quote

Without basis?? 

 

Aegon’s reign was a challenging one, starting as it did in the midst of a winter that had lasted three years and showed no signs of abating. There was starvation and suffering in the North, as there had been a hundred years before, in the long winter that reigned from 130 to 135 AC. King Aegon, always concerned for the welfare of the poor and weak, did what he could to increase the flow of grain and other food to the North, but some felt he did too much in this regard.

His rule was also quickly tested by those whose affairs he had meddled in too often as a prince, attempting to reduce their rights and privileges. Nor had the Blackfyre threat ended with the death of Aenys Blackfyre; Bloodraven’s infamous betrayal had only hardened the enmity of the exiles across the narrow sea. In 236 AC, as a cruel six-year-long winter drew to a close, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion saw the self-styled King Daemon III Blackfyre, son of Haegon and grandson of Daemon I, cross the narrow sea with Bittersteel and the Golden Company at his back, in a fresh attempt to seize the Iron Throne

There were other battles during the time of Aegon V, for the unlikely king was forced to spend much of his reign in armor, quelling one rising or another. Though beloved by the smallfolk, King Aegon made many enemies amongst the lords of the realm, whose powers he wished to curtail. He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a “bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties.”

It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon’s patience—especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all.

 

The idea that they would need to kill him is also yours by this point,  but we do know that there were rebellions against his policies and that those who opposed him, certainly seemed to have the upper hand.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Selmy is wrong here. Daeron did not marry. And Yandel does not mention any concrete rebellions in the wake of Jaehaerys-Shaera or Daeron, meaning that whatever happened there is not likely to have the same size as the relative minor and short affair of Lyonel's rebellion (which was dealt with in a year).

Turmoil is vague enough to not be equated or confused with 'bloody rebellions'.

 Selmy lived there for all we know Daeron married his partner and was a secret,  I will trust his words  here.

Yandel just says that Aegon finally got to calm the lords, he doesn't enter in what could those bitter enemies may have done or let do, does he??  At the end of the day, Aegon needed those lords for his policies, he certainly didn't get them, so it's more likely that if there were treason and turmoil before the bethrothals, after Aegon had pissed absolutely everybody bar the North, my fanfic is that the North didn't forget Egg's kindness and they stood with him during all the mess,  those who were opposing him before would have it even easier knowing Egg couldn't count with almost any high lord by that point. And we know to where that desperation and lack of nobility help led.

 

And intent on one more thing: dragons. As he grew older, Aegon V had come to dream of dragons flying once more above the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. In this, he was not unlike his predecessors, who brought septons to pray over the last eggs, mages to work spells over them, and maesters to pore over them. Though friends and counselors sought to dissuade him, King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he ever wield sufficient power to make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees

And mind you, unless Egg had a spare son or daughter i doubt he could deal with those lords the same way he deal with a "relatively minor affair" as Lyonel's rebellion, in the text it's only affirmed it was short but it's specified it was bloody, so it can't be minor.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Summerhall ended Aegon V's reign. There is no confirmation that the children stuffed caused Summerhall.

Quote

The nobles wanting to end Egg's reign is your  strawman.

There is no confirmation that the children stuff is related to Summerhall but by Barri B own recollections, i mean, the man lived in those days and all, it's like doubting Ned's recollection of the Robellion.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Jaehaerys II inherited a very strong and robust kingdom with enough of a hold to marshal a large army to invade the Stepstones and put down the Ninepenny Kings.

The Realm not caring about the Ninepenny  Kings isn't  the same as the Realm stooding by Egg in winter and summer.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Since the rebellions against him weren't aimed to removed him from his Throne... Even Lyonel briefly seeked independence.

In reaction to the marriage issue, not because he wanted independence as such.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

We are told the reason about the revolts and we know Egg wasn't winning.

 

Without basis?? 

 

Aegon’s reign was a challenging one, starting as it did in the midst of a winter that had lasted three years and showed no signs of abating. There was starvation and suffering in the North, as there had been a hundred years before, in the long winter that reigned from 130 to 135 AC. King Aegon, always concerned for the welfare of the poor and weak, did what he could to increase the flow of grain and other food to the North, but some felt he did too much in this regard.

His rule was also quickly tested by those whose affairs he had meddled in too often as a prince, attempting to reduce their rights and privileges. Nor had the Blackfyre threat ended with the death of Aenys Blackfyre; Bloodraven’s infamous betrayal had only hardened the enmity of the exiles across the narrow sea. In 236 AC, as a cruel six-year-long winter drew to a close, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion saw the self-styled King Daemon III Blackfyre, son of Haegon and grandson of Daemon I, cross the narrow sea with Bittersteel and the Golden Company at his back, in a fresh attempt to seize the Iron Throne

There were other battles during the time of Aegon V, for the unlikely king was forced to spend much of his reign in armor, quelling one rising or another. Though beloved by the smallfolk, King Aegon made many enemies amongst the lords of the realm, whose powers he wished to curtail. He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a “bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties.”

It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon’s patience—especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all.

 

The idea that they would need to kill him is also yours by this point,  but we do know that there were rebellions against his policies and that those who opposed him, certainly seemed to have the upper hand.

You make my case for me. Aegon V faced opposition against his reforms and was forced to compromise and postpone some (not all) of his most radicial reforms. But most lords - especially those lords who Aegon V had 'to bow more often than he wished' were not lords who, in fact, wanted to depose him - or else they would have done that. They pushed him back in his reform agenda but were likely very happy to submit to their king within the traditional feudal framework.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Selmy lived there for all we know Daeron married his partner and was a secret,  I will trust his words  here.

People have been trying to retcon that quote but the fact is that it is nonsense as presented. Unless we pretend there is gay marriage in Westeros - for which there is no evidence at this point.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

Yandel just says that Aegon finally got to calm the lords, he doesn't enter in what could those bitter enemies may have done or let do, does he??  At the end of the day, Aegon needed those lords for his policies, he certainly didn't get them, so it's more likely that if there were treason and turmoil before the bethrothals, after Aegon had pissed absolutely everybody bar the North, my fanfic is that the North didn't forget Egg's kindness and they stood with him during all the mess,  those who were opposing him before would have it even easier knowing Egg couldn't count with almost any high lord by that point. And we know to where that desperation and lack of nobility help led.

I'd not be surprised if the Starks of Winterfell were the most determined enemies of Aegon V, having nothing of his reforms limiting their powers of their smallfolk.

But we really don't know. Keep in mind that Aegon V definitely had Gerold the Golden in his pocket as well as, one assumes, Lyonel Baratheon and after him Ormund both before and after the marriage issue (once Rhaelle was at Storm's End, at least - they got their Targaryen marriage in the end).

20 hours ago, frenin said:

And intent on one more thing: dragons. As he grew older, Aegon V had come to dream of dragons flying once more above the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. In this, he was not unlike his predecessors, who brought septons to pray over the last eggs, mages to work spells over them, and maesters to pore over them. Though friends and counselors sought to dissuade him, King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he ever wield sufficient power to make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees

And mind you, unless Egg had a spare son or daughter i doubt he could deal with those lords the same way he deal with a "relatively minor affair" as Lyonel's rebellion, in the text it's only affirmed it was short but it's specified it was bloody, so it can't be minor.

It took only a war and it ended in a trial-by-combat, not the destruction of Storm's End - as it it should have. One imagines all this has to do with the fact that beneath all the blustering and raging Lyonel and Aegon V and Dunk were still friends. This was as serious an issue as Rhaegar-Lyanna, of course, but the people involved knew how to make peace afterwards.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

The nobles wanting to end Egg's reign is your  strawman.

There is no confirmation that the children stuff is related to Summerhall but by Barri B own recollections, i mean, the man lived in those days and all, it's like doubting Ned's recollection of the Robellion.

Those memories are faulty and they only paint a very broad picture, just as the entire Yandel chapter on both the reigns of Aegon V and Maekar are essentially worthless as history. They give no details away aside from a very general picture of the Baratheon affair.

We do have a number of actual facts though that confirm that Aegon V was both a strong and successful king especially in his later years from the Westerlands section (especially the unabridged version) where the guy has the strength to intervene in the West during Tytos's misrule.

20 hours ago, frenin said:

The Realm not caring about the Ninepenny  Kings isn't  the same as the Realm stooding by Egg in winter and summer.

Jaehaerys II is described as a weak king by Selmy and in general, especially in comparison to his father, yet he was able to deal with them following a plan drawn up by his father and older brother.

A realm in ruins from the continuous warfare of a king in trouble throughtout a reign lasting nearly three decades would have been ripe for a Blackfyre conquest.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In reaction to the marriage issue, not because he wanted independence as such.

Quote

Ofc, but he didn't aim to kill Egg or end his line, even when he rebelled, he went for independence.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You make my case for me. Aegon V faced opposition against his reforms and was forced to compromise and postpone some (not all) of his most radicial reforms. But most lords - especially those lords who Aegon V had 'to bow more often than he wished' were not lords who, in fact, wanted to depose him - or else they would have done that. They pushed him back in his reform agenda but were likely very happy to submit to their king within the traditional feudal framework.

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... You were the one saying that the Lords refusing to obey his decrees were staging a rebellion an would¡ve killed or deposed him, had they prevailed, i never said they were rebelling against but against his reforms,this is a very weird strawman.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

People have been trying to retcon that quote but the fact is that it is nonsense as presented. Unless we pretend there is gay marriage in Westeros - for which there is no evidence at this point.

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We don't know what happened, not if they found a very unorthodox septon, or if they marry other way or is just nonsense.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not be surprised if the Starks of Winterfell were the most determined enemies of Aegon V, having nothing of his reforms limiting their powers of their smallfolk.

But we really don't know. Keep in mind that Aegon V definitely had Gerold the Golden in his pocket as well as, one assumes, Lyonel Baratheon and after him Ormund both before and after the marriage issue (once Rhaelle was at Storm's End, at least - they got their Targaryen marriage in the end).

I very much doubt the Starks were his enemies, but who knows.

 

Egg had Gerold in his pocket before he started his shenanigans, we don't know if Gerold ever regretted his decision or even if he agreed with Egg's reforms, nor we  know how the relations between Baratheons and Targs were after the Rhaelle match. And after Gerold died, the West was an anarchy.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It took only a war and it ended in a trial-by-combat, not the destruction of Storm's End - as it it should have. One imagines all this has to do with the fact that beneath all the blustering and raging Lyonel and Aegon V and Dunk were still friends. This was as serious an issue as Rhaegar-Lyanna, of course, but the people involved knew how to make peace afterwards.

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Because you're assuming in the first place Egg had the power to break Storm's End, i don't really know what makes you think that, the fact that after a civil war that it's described as a very bloody business, Egg not only apoligized byt sent his daughter as a cup bearer of Lord Lyonel is at all a sign that Lyonel was doomed or had the clearly lost.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those memories are faulty and they only paint a very broad picture, just as the entire Yandel chapter on both the reigns of Aegon V and Maekar are essentially worthless as history. They give no details away aside from a very general picture of the Baratheon affair.

Ofc they don't give details, but they clearly link one event to the other.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We do have a number of actual facts though that confirm that Aegon V was both a strong and successful king especially in his later years from the Westerlands section (especially the unabridged version) where the guy has the strength to intervene in the West during Tytos's misrule.

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He was neither those, in fact, that's why he wanted to hatch dragons, to become one. We're told that Egg's reign was a challenging one, we're told that treason and turmoil followed after his children fuck ups, we¡'re told that an old Egg thought that only due absolute power he would ever make the lords kneel, that's not succesful not particulary strong.

Egg sent his own sworn swords to the Westerlands thrice and didn't accomplish shit, as feare both the King and the Shield of Lannisport were, even then, he was more succesful in that aspect that his heir.

 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaehaerys II is described as a weak king by Selmy and in general, especially in comparison to his father, yet he was able to deal with them following a plan drawn up by his father and older brother.

 

Selmy says that Jaeharys was believed weak willed and i don't understand your point in the rest.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A realm in ruins from the continuous warfare of a king in trouble throughtout a reign lasting nearly three decades would have been ripe for a Blackfyre conquest.

No one ever said  the Realm was in ruins but even then, Westeros did not care for the Blackfyres anymore.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Ofc, but he didn't aim to kill Egg or end his line, even when he rebelled, he went for independence.

The cause is clear. Inependence was a means to an end - to avenge himself, restore his honor - not the end.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

... You were the one saying that the Lords refusing to obey his decrees were staging a rebellion an would¡ve killed or deposed him, had they prevailed, i never said they were rebelling against but against his reforms,this is a very weird strawman.

You gave the impression Aegon V's reign wasn't a success. I disagree.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I very much doubt the Starks were his enemies, but who knows.

That's the point - we don't know. We don't even know the precise nature of those conflicts nor whether those are just a kind of figure speech like Gyldayn claiming there were made attempts during the reigns of Aegon I's son to bring Dorne into the Realm (which there weren't, nor were there any proper Dornish Wars from Aenys to 136 AC.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Egg had Gerold in his pocket before he started his shenanigans, we don't know if Gerold ever regretted his decision or even if he agreed with Egg's reforms, nor we  know how the relations between Baratheons and Targs were after the Rhaelle match. And after Gerold died, the West was an anarchy.

We have a pretty decent Westerlands history. It would be rather odd if Gerold or Tytos did war against Aegon V when nothing of that sort is mentioned. Gerold was broken after the death of his first son and then only recovered for a short time after the death of his second, never going to war. And it is also quite clear that none of the Westermen were involved in any conflict outside the West between the Peake Uprising and the Ninepenny Kings.

George could all change that, but at this point that's how it appears.

We certainly do know the Baratheons were on board again after the Rhaelle thing because Ormund Baratheon eventually became Hand. If he had been a pain in the ass to his father Jaehaerys II wouldn't have made him Hand nor would he have trusted him with leading his army on the Stepstones.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Because you're assuming in the first place Egg had the power to break Storm's End, i don't really know what makes you think that, the fact that after a civil war that it's described as a very bloody business, Egg not only apoligized byt sent his daughter as a cup bearer of Lord Lyonel is at all a sign that Lyonel was doomed or had the clearly lost.

We don't know the details but if he had won there would be two kings in Westeros after the trial-by-combat, not just one. And Dunk wouldn't have lived to die at Summerhall.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

He was neither those, in fact, that's why he wanted to hatch dragons, to become one. We're told that Egg's reign was a challenging one, we're told that treason and turmoil followed after his children fuck ups, we¡'re told that an old Egg thought that only due absolute power he would ever make the lords kneel, that's not succesful not particulary strong.

Egg sent his own sworn swords to the Westerlands thrice and didn't accomplish shit, as feare both the King and the Shield of Lannisport were, even then, he was more succesful in that aspect that his heir.

That just means Aegon V didn't think he was successful/hadn't done enough. While we don't know what he did nor what he wanted to do with his dragons we have basically no clue. But we do know he implemented reforms that bettered the situation of the smallfolk, reforms that stood and had to be overturned by Jaehaerys II and Aerys II.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Selmy says that Jaeharys was believed weak willed and i don't understand your point in the rest.

The Ninepenny Kings.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

No one ever said  the Realm was in ruins but even then, Westeros did not care for the Blackfyres anymore.

If Aegon V had not had the support of most of his lords they would have just ignored the Ninepenny Kings, forcing the sickly and weak Jaehaerys II to deal with them all by himself. Instead half the Realm or more sent men to fight on the Stepstones (we have it confirmed the Ironborn, Dornish, Stormlanders, Westermen, Riverlanders, and even some Northmen were there).

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The cause is clear. Inependence was a means to an end - to avenge himself, restore his honor - not the end.

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I agreee.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You gave the impression Aegon V's reign wasn't a success. I disagree.

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Egg's reign wasn't a success, the man failed and that literally killed him but the fact that it wasn't a success don't mean the lords who revolted for his policies wanting to depose or kill him.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's the point - we don't know. We don't even know the precise nature of those conflicts nor whether those are just a kind of figure speech like Gyldayn claiming there were made attempts during the reigns of Aegon I's son to bring Dorne into the Realm (which there weren't, nor were there any proper Dornish Wars from Aenys to 136 AC.

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We know Egg had to fight his vassals and we know it was for his policies, the rest is up to everyone.

We don't really whether Aegon tried to bring Dorne to the Realm, more quietly or not, the fact that it wasn't mentioned can imply that his attempts were rather irrelevant.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We have a pretty decent Westerlands history. It would be rather odd if Gerold or Tytos did war against Aegon V when nothing of that sort is mentioned. Gerold was broken after the death of his first son and then only recovered for a short time after the death of his second, never going to war. And it is also quite clear that none of the Westermen were involved in any conflict outside the West between the Peake Uprising and the Ninepenny Kings.

George could all change that, but at this point that's how it appears.

We certainly do know the Baratheons were on board again after the Rhaelle thing because Ormund Baratheon eventually became Hand. If he had been a pain in the ass to his father Jaehaerys II wouldn't have made him Hand nor would he have trusted him with leading his army on the Stepstones.

Gerold and Tytos didn't need to war against Egg, they just needed to not war for him or take a neutral position, no we don't know the Baratheons became on board, they just could neutral and that's it or give a little support.

And if Jaeharys didn't want Hands who weren't a pain in his father's ass, who could he choose??

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know the details but if he had won there would be two kings in Westeros after the trial-by-combat, not just one. And Dunk wouldn't have lived to die at Summerhall.

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Since the war was solved in a trial by combat, since pretty far fetched the man was all in, we know he lost to Dunk, nut losing to Dunk in no way implies didn't have the strength to keep fighting or oven better, Egg had the strenght to wipe the Baratheons out. Not many defeated rebels end up suffering zero repercussions for their acts and with the King's daughter as hostage and future bethrothed.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That just means Aegon V didn't think he was successful/hadn't done enough. While we don't know what he did nor what he wanted to do with his dragons we have basically no clue. But we do know he implemented reforms that bettered the situation of the smallfolk, reforms that stood and had to be overturned by Jaehaerys II and Aerys II.

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We don't know what kind of reforms he made, honestly, even the shittiest reform would better the life of the smallfolk and anger the asshole nobility.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Ninepenny Kings.

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I understand you are talking about the ninepenny kings, i don't understand the Egg's relevance.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If Aegon V had not had the support of most of his lords they would have just ignored the Ninepenny Kings, forcing the sickly and weak Jaehaerys II to deal with them all by himself. Instead half the Realm or more sent men to fight on the Stepstones (we have it confirmed the Ironborn, Dornish, Stormlanders, Westermen, Riverlanders, and even some Northmen were there).

Or that the nobility clearly knew the difference between domestic affairs and foreign one.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Egg's reign wasn't a success, the man failed and that literally killed him but the fact that it wasn't a success don't mean the lords who revolted for his policies wanting to depose or kill him.

Nobody said that rebellious lords mean a reign is a failure.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

We know Egg had to fight his vassals and we know it was for his policies, the rest is up to everyone.

We don't really whether Aegon tried to bring Dorne to the Realm, more quietly or not, the fact that it wasn't mentioned can imply that his attempts were rather irrelevant.

It is also wrong that the so-called Dornish Wars were Dornish Wars since no one ever wanted to conquer Dorne after between Aegon I and Aegon III. Yet this is still claimed.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Gerold and Tytos didn't need to war against Egg, they just needed to not war for him or take a neutral position, no we don't know the Baratheons became on board, they just could neutral and that's it or give a little support.

A neutral position wouldn't mean opposition (and we have no evidence that they were neutral), and Tytos definitely wouldn't have dared to contradict his king in any way, shape, or form. He shows considerable fear when Aegon V commands him to restore order in the West. He also sends Tywin as page and squire to court - something he wouldn't do if he had issues with the king.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

And if Jaeharys didn't want Hands who weren't a pain in his father's ass, who could he choose??

How should I know, we don't know who opposed Aegon V. But there were lords on Aegon V's council. He had loyal men, and we do know that Jaehaerys II government was mainly staffed by men his father had chosen, possibly even Ormund Baratheon himself.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Since the war was solved in a trial by combat, since pretty far fetched the man was all in, we know he lost to Dunk, nut losing to Dunk in no way implies didn't have the strength to keep fighting or oven better, Egg had the strenght to wipe the Baratheons out. Not many defeated rebels end up suffering zero repercussions for their acts and with the King's daughter as hostage and future bethrothed.

Don't pretend we know stuff here. We don't even know why there was a trial-by-combat or what exactly was decided by that. What we can say, however, is that Aegon V didn't lose his war there. If he had been captured by Lyonel he may have been killed - or he would have been forced to face Lyonel himself in single combat rather than being able to delegate that task to a Kingsguard.

And you have to keep in mind that these people were all friends before Duncan fucked things up. The fact that they eventually chose a duel for some reason to resolve things implies that they tried to resolve the issue without pushing it to an extreme 'all-or-nothing' solution.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

We don't know what kind of reforms he made, honestly, even the shittiest reform would better the life of the smallfolk and anger the asshole nobility.

Which would be a success in my book. A king beating up the nobility throughout his reign while keeping his crown and life isn't unsuccessful, just as a king presiding over peace and quiet doesn't have to be all that successful if he was actually trying to go to war the entire time.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

I understand you are talking about the ninepenny kings, i don't understand the Egg's relevance.

If his reign had ruined the country - which continuous warfare would have - and had antagonized a relevant majority of the lords then the Targaryens would have never been able to deal with the Ninepenny Kings.

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Or that the nobility clearly knew the difference between domestic affairs and foreign one.

LOL, nonsense. The West, the Iron Islands, the Riverlands and the North have no stake whatsoever in the Stepstones. And those lords who loathed Aegon V and his brood wouldn't have had any issue with a possible Blackfyre invasion. Why should they? Maelys most likely didn't want to do any reform nonsense.

[BlackLightning]

Honestly, I'm far more interested in the Targaryen queens and princesses than I am in the kings. Daena the Defiant, Rhaena the Black Bride, Alysanne the Good, Visenya and Rhaenys, Aerea, Rhaelle the grandmother of the Baratheon brothers, Naerys, etc.

But the most Targaryen king in my opinion? The three "good" Aegons (Aegon I, Aegon III, Aegon V) are fantastic. Daeron II is probably the best.

I'm with @Rose of Red Lake when it comes to Jaehaerys I. Not a fan. His reign was a success and he wasn't a terrible man. But he's just ugh. A lot of the problems that plagued his family were started and perpetuated by Jaehaerys I

On 11/22/2019 at 8:00 PM, frenin said:

Aegon 5 tho...

Aegon’s reign was a challenging one, starting as it did in the midst of a winter that had lasted three years and showed no signs of abating. There was starvation and suffering in the North, as there had been a hundred years before, in the long winter that reigned from 130 to 135 AC. King Aegon, always concerned for the welfare of the poor and weak, did what he could to increase the flow of grain and other food to the North, but some felt he did too much in this regard. His rule was also quickly tested by those whose affairs he had meddled in too often as a prince, attempting to reduce their rights and privileges. Nor had the Blackfyre threat ended with the death of Aenys Blackfyre; Bloodraven’s infamous betrayal had only hardened the enmity of the exiles across the narrow sea. In 236 AC, as a cruel six-year-long winter drew to a close, the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion saw the self-styled King Daemon III Blackfyre, son of Haegon and grandson of Daemon I, cross the narrow sea with Bittersteel and the Golden Company at his back, in a fresh attempt to seize the Iron Throne

There were other battles during the time of Aegon V, for the unlikely king was forced to spend much of his reign in armor, quelling one rising or another. Though beloved by the smallfolk, King Aegon made many enemies amongst the lords of the realm, whose powers he wished to curtail. He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a “bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties.” It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon’s patience—especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all

It had long been the custom of House Targaryen to wed brother to sister to keep the blood of the dragon pure, but for whatever cause, Aegon V had become convinced that such incestuous unions did more harm than good. Instead he resolved to join his children in marriage with the sons and daughters of some of the greatest lords of the Seven Kingdoms, in the hopes of winning their support for his reforms and strengthening his rule.

The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.

Egg's rule would be def a very interesting one, but the man was far from succesful.

I think Daenerys is going to go down the path of Aegon V and Visenya.

I think Daenerys' problems with the nobility and her attempt to bring lasting, positive change to Westeros will get her killed. In regards to Visenya, Daenerys is going to be very intimidating and stern in both silk and steel and will likely embrace sorcery by the end of it all.

After Euron Greyjoy and the Others are dealt with, there's probably going to be another Summerhall/Red Wedding type of event (engineered by Tyrion) that will end with Jon murdering Daenerys (as a mercy? a mistake or purposefully in cold blood?)and then being arrested and imprisoned.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said that rebellious lords mean a reign is a failure.

It's not a succes  in every way you want it, btw isn't Barth the one saying something like only a poor  King has to fight his own vassals in his own land?? Jaeharys saying that there is nothing more expensive than quelling rebellions and  so on??

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

A neutral position wouldn't mean opposition (and we have no evidence that they were neutral), and Tytos definitely wouldn't have dared to contradict his king in any way, shape, or form. He shows considerable fear when Aegon V commands him to restore order in the West. He also sends Tywin as page and squire to court - something he wouldn't do if he had issues with the king.

We have no evidence they were supporting his policies, the only one we know who actually was is Lyonel Baratheon and  that's why he was rewarded with Duncan's hand.

Tytos is weak, his reign an anarchy, even him being in good terms with Egg wouldn't mean nothing if the Westerlands is a chaos, btw the Tytos fearing Egg is in the new version??

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

How should I know, we don't know who opposed Aegon V. But there were lords on Aegon V's council. He had loyal men, and we do know that Jaehaerys II government was mainly staffed by men his father had chosen, possibly even Ormund Baratheon himself.

I mean, ofc he had loyalists, but those loyalists weren't nowhere  enough to impose  his policies, Ormund Baratheon could perfectly be a pal of Egg's kids while him disliking Egg's policies, his family didn't seem to care about his policies all that much tbf.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't pretend we know stuff here. We don't even know why there was a trial-by-combat or what exactly was decided by that. What we can say, however, is that Aegon V didn't lose his war there. If he had been captured by Lyonel he may have been killed - or he would have been forced to face Lyonel himself in single combat rather than being able to delegate that task to a Kingsguard.

And you have to keep in mind that these people were all friends before Duncan fucked things up. The fact that they eventually chose a duel for some reason to resolve things implies that they tried to resolve the issue without pushing it to an extreme 'all-or-nothing' solution.

I didn't pretend  we know stuff there, you did when saying that Lyonel was properly defeated and  even then Storm's End wasn't destroyed root and  stem, i precisely said that we don't know what happened there and  that the terms offered to Lyonel weren't the terms you offered a total defeated man, you especially don't offer  your daughter as a hostage. 

Well the duel would've been nice before starting the bloody rebellion and  paying the bride price in corpses.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Which would be a success in my book. A king beating up the nobility throughout his reign while keeping his crown and life isn't unsuccessful, just as a king presiding over peace and quiet doesn't have to be all that successful if he was actually trying to go to war the entire time.

Well, yours  is the idea that a King fighting against his own vassals throughout his reign is succesful, the nobility however shove most of Egg's policies in his ass, and  had he not sucked, he would've lost  his crown if not his life.

The effects of constant revolts and  a chaotic Westerlands can't be possitive either.

But ofc if the bar is keeping your crown and  life, when no one, as far as we know, was after his crown and  life, just his policies, then ofc he seemed a succesful King, he didn't die, even when not dying in battle has close to zero to be with succesfulness as a ruler, it talks about Egg being a great warrior, his sworn swords being awesome, Egg being a good tactician or strategist or his men being, Egg being lucky. Or all the above.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If his reign had ruined the country - which continuous warfare would have - and had antagonized a relevant majority of the lords then the Targaryens would have never been able to deal with the Ninepenny Kings.

Who knows, not i said that he ruined the country, you keep putting that stuff in my mouth, but that it's unlikely that the Realm was in better state that it was with Maekar.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, nonsense. The West, the Iron Islands, the Riverlands and the North have no stake whatsoever in the Stepstones. And those lords who loathed Aegon V and his brood wouldn't have had any issue with a possible Blackfyre invasion. Why should they? Maelys most likely didn't want to do any reform nonsense.

By that point the Westerosi seemed more done with the Blackfyres than the Targs, kinda  like the Yronwoods with the Martells during the Dornish wars, so it makes sense than they wouldn't want the Blackfyres nowhere  near the Throne, besides than in nowhere  is said that people mistrusted the ruling dynasty.

 

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not a succes  in every way you want it, btw isn't Barth the one saying something like only a poor  King has to fight his own vassals in his own land?? Jaeharys saying that there is nothing more expensive than quelling rebellions and  so on??

Who cares about the opinion of people who don't have anything to do with anything?

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

We have no evidence they were supporting his policies, the only one we know who actually was is Lyonel Baratheon and  that's why he was rewarded with Duncan's hand.

We know Gerold Lannister helped make Aegon V king.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Tytos is weak, his reign an anarchy, even him being in good terms with Egg wouldn't mean nothing if the Westerlands is a chaos, btw the Tytos fearing Egg is in the new version??

Tytos tries to do something and gets his own father-in-law killed by the Red Lion after Aegon V sternly commands him to clean his house.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

I mean, ofc he had loyalists, but those loyalists weren't nowhere  enough to impose  his policies, Ormund Baratheon could perfectly be a pal of Egg's kids while him disliking Egg's policies, his family didn't seem to care about his policies all that much tbf.

How do you know that? We don't know any details about his reign.

Yes, some reforms couldn't be enforced - but others could, presumably with the help of lords loyal to Aegon V.

You have no basis for your claim that Egg's children (especially Duncan) had issues with his policies. Jaehaerys II overturned some reforms, yes, but he was a weakling and may have done so under duress not because he was opposed to his father's policies.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

I didn't pretend  we know stuff there, you did when saying that Lyonel was properly defeated and  even then Storm's End wasn't destroyed root and  stem, i precisely said that we don't know what happened there and  that the terms offered to Lyonel weren't the terms you offered a total defeated man, you especially don't offer  your daughter as a hostage. 

You simply don't know that.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well, yours  is the idea that a King fighting against his own vassals throughout his reign is succesful, the nobility however shove most of Egg's policies in his ass, and  had he not sucked, he would've lost  his crown if not his life.

He bettered the lives of most of his subjects. It doesn't matter that he had constant issues with some nobles.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

The effects of constant revolts and  a chaotic Westerlands can't be possitive either.

Not Aegon V's problem.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

But ofc if the bar is keeping your crown and  life, when no one, as far as we know, was after his crown and  life, just his policies, then ofc he seemed a succesful King, he didn't die, even when not dying in battle has close to zero to be with succesfulness as a ruler, it talks about Egg being a great warrior, his sworn swords being awesome, Egg being a good tactician or strategist or his men being, Egg being lucky. Or all the above.

The way to really end a king's policies is to end him - that's why kings are murdered and deposed.

Sure, some of those rebels might have had less severe issues with Aegon V - but whenever the king had fight an actual military campaign then both the death of the king as well as the destruction of the rebelling house was on the table.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Who knows, not i said that he ruined the country, you keep putting that stuff in my mouth, but that it's unlikely that the Realm was in better state that it was with Maekar.

No basis for that assumption of yours since we don't know anything about Maekar's reign, and even less about his reign in relation to Egg's.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

By that point the Westerosi seemed more done with the Blackfyres than the Targs, kinda  like the Yronwoods with the Martells during the Dornish wars, so it makes sense than they wouldn't want the Blackfyres nowhere  near the Throne, besides than in nowhere  is said that people mistrusted the ruling dynasty.

If they mistrusted Aegon V they had issues with the ruling dynasty.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Who cares about the opinion of people who don't have anything to do with anything?

Aren't they giving their realpolitik advices, waging constant wars against your vassals is both a sign of a not very good Kings and  it's not cheap.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know Gerold Lannister helped make Aegon V king.

We do, we don't know what Gerold Lannister had to say about his policies and the one rewarded for his loyalty was Lyonel Baratheon, not him, people change their minds with time.

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tytos tries to do something and gets his own father-in-law killed by the Red Lion after Aegon V sternly commands him to clean his house.

Which only shows the power  both him and  the "stern" Aegon V have over their vassals.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? We don't know any details about his reign.

Yes, some reforms couldn't be enforced - but others could, presumably with the help of lords loyal to Aegon V.

You have no basis for your claim that Egg's children (especially Duncan) had issues with his policies. Jaehaerys II overturned some reforms, yes, but he was a weakling and may have done so under duress not because he was opposed to his father's policies.

Because we are literally told that he didn't get to enforce most of his reforms.

And who were those lords loyal to Aegon V?? You don't know, but you seem to be on the opinion  that those lords  were enough to give them the edge, everything points otherwise, especially since Egg seemed to lose friends faster  than he got them.

If his children cared so much, they would've compromised they  were incapable  of doing that.

Jaeharys ii wasn't a weakling, he got to marry Shaera and  he got to marry Aerys and  Rhaelle, giving no fucks about his father. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You simply don't know that.

I don't pretend i do,  you do. You're the one saying that Egg could've destroyed House Baratheon.

What we know is that Egg gave his own daughter as hostage and  bethrothed her to Lyonel's heir.  That you don't offer your daughter as a hostage to a defeated foe, is something i know.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He bettered the lives of most of his subjects. It doesn't matter that he had constant issues with some nobles.

Which is great, but since those most of his subjects would be levied  to fight against him, one should ponder his succes.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not Aegon V's problem.

You can't be serious on this one. You really can't.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The way to really end a king's policies is to end him - that's why kings are murdered and deposed.

Sure, some of those rebels might have had less severe issues with Aegon V - but whenever the king had fight an actual military campaign then both the death of the king as well as the destruction of the rebelling house was on the table.

Or you know, just force him to give up, as they did. They didn't like his policies but they certainly could bear some, those they couldn't bear simply weren't accepted.

Sure but as far as we know nothing of that happened, the rebels got Aegon 5 to give up. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No basis for that assumption of yours since we don't know anything about Maekar's reign, and even less about his reign in relation to Egg's.

Since we know that but for his kids doing shenanigans, he reigned in peace and  we are not told about any famine or harsh winter, is difficult to believe he got it worse than someone who spent most of his reign in armour and  one of his centers of riches being a literal anarchy.

 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If they mistrusted Aegon V they had issues with the ruling dynasty.

Would they?? Is quite a big leap.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Egg seems like a typical subversion of a fantasy trope—Wart being raised among the peasantry, growing and learning from them to serve them in adulthood in a glorious, successful reign. I don’t think the author could let that kind of grandiose narrative to be uncritically accepted or believed. I’d also like to know the specifics of his “reforms” and you have to wonder how he fell into the typical Targ trap of “I will bring peace VIOLENTLY WITH FORCE!”

[Elegant Woes]

@Rose of Red Lake Daenerys is quite similar to Egg. Just like him she basically grew up as a peasant - even worse a beggar. Just like him Daenerys was suddenly handed great deal of power. Just like him Dany had initially good intentions and faced adversities that slowly changed her. The tragedy of Summerhall was the beginning of the end for the Targaryen reign. And just like him Dany will set things in motion that will put an end to the Targaryen bloodline. She's the Last Dragon. 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Egg seems like a typical subversion of a fantasy trope—Wart being raised among the peasantry, growing and learning from them to serve them in adulthood in a glorious, successful reign. I don’t think the author could let that kind of grandiose narrative to be uncritically accepted or believed. I’d also like to know the specifics of his “reforms” and you have to wonder how he fell into the typical Targ trap of “I will bring peace VIOLENTLY WITH FORCE!”

More like the fantasy trope facing reality, Egg could've get the support he needed for his reforms if he ever brought himself to force  his children to follow his lead, like his son Jaeharys quite literally do for worse obviously. The fact that he seemed unable to conpromise and  rather the shorcut that dragons are speaks for itself. The man wanted it all without giving up nothing and  he got burned, quite literally.