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Myrddin

Star Wars: The Circle is Almost Complete

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5 minutes ago, red snow said:

For me it's more a case of poor execution of an idea although i am generally against prequels as a concept in movies anyhow. 

There is a world where a prequel showing how Darth Vader was born is a good thing, but I’m pretty convinced it’s a very difficult thing to make work, whilst still keeping us in awe of his character.

Showing him as a child, and as a moany teenager just broke him.

Sometimes it’s best to keep things a mystery and in the imagination 

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15 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There is a world where a prequel showing how Darth Vader was born is a good thing, but I’m pretty convinced it’s a very difficult thing to make work, whilst still keeping us in awe of his character.

Coming 2022: Episode 0: The Conception of Vader

Act One: The Force becomes man; The Force falls for woman and she for... him? It?

Act 2: The Force loses woman.

Act 3: They Force makes up with woman and plants seeds for the destruction of the galaxy.

The End 

 

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Giving us a story that details the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic, and rise of the Empire was not a bad idea, at all. The execution wasn't up to par.

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2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Giving us a story that details the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic, and rise of the Empire was not a bad idea, at all. The execution wasn't up to par.

Exactly.

And giving us a story about the struggles of the fledgling New Republic and the possible return of the Jedi with that background is the same thing to me. Not bad ideas to explore, depending on execution. Lucas was right to think there was a story there.

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11 minutes ago, Ran said:

Exactly.

And giving us a story about the struggles of the fledgling New Republic and the possible return of the Jedi with that background is the same thing to me. Not bad ideas to explore, depending on execution. Lucas was right to think there was a story there.

Yes, those are all stories I'd like to see and I agree the execution was terrible.

My point was that those stories are the background scenery for a Darth Vader prequel, and that is the bit that was a real problem. So why not set the rise of the Empire as centuries before, with all new characters, or a very old emperor. The weakness for me is the need to keep trying to shoehorn these big sweeping universe changing events around the same tiny cast of characters. 

If you wanna show the struggles of the New Republic, cool, I wanna see that, but you can do it far better if you aren't constantly weighed down trying to fit in characters we already know about. 

I don't care what Lucas had planned from the start, he clearly has no problem making stuff up as he goes along when it suits him.

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23 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Giving us a story that details the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic, and rise of the Empire was not a bad idea, at all. The execution wasn't up to par.

For me the concept and story behind ROTS was great, but it felt so rushed because they had to fit so much in to one film because they wasted the other two prequels with pod races and love stories.

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Just now, Heartofice said:

Yes, those are all stories I'd like to see and I agree the execution was terrible.

My point was that those stories are the background scenery for a Darth Vader prequel, and that is the bit that was a real problem. So why not set the rise of the Empire as centuries before, with all new characters, or a very old emperor. The weakness for me is the need to keep trying to shoehorn these big sweeping universe changing events around the same tiny cast of characters. 

If you wanna show the struggles of the New Republic, cool, I wanna see that, but you can do it far better if you aren't constantly weighed down trying to fit in characters we already know about. 

I don't care what Lucas had planned from the start, he clearly has no problem making stuff up as he goes along when it suits him.

But Obi Wan tells Luke that a young Jedi named Vader betrayed the Jedi, and that he was his pupil. Then turns out Vader was Anakin. So Anakin turning to the dark side was at a major part of the Jedi's downfall, there is no way to go around it. Now you have to retcon the OT, too.

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5 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

But Obi Wan tells Luke that a young Jedi named Vader betrayed the Jedi, and that he was his pupil. Then turns out Vader was Anakin. So Anakin turning to the dark side was at a major part of the Jedi's downfall, there is no way to go around it. Now you have to retcon the OT, too.

Sure you could have Anakin betraying Obi Wan and Vader hunting down the Jedi, there is a good story in there somewhere.

It doesn't need to happen at the exact same time the Empire was created or when the Emperor becomes the Emperor. Unless I'm missing something in the OT. Is there any reason the Jedi couldn't have already been a dying force by that point? That it all happened so quickly is another problem with those movies.

Edited by Heartofice

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6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Sure you could have Anakin betraying Obi Wan and Vader hunting down the Jedi, there is a good story in there somewhere.

It doesn't need to happen at the exact same time the Empire was created or when the Emperor becomes the Emperor. Unless I'm missing something in the OT. Is there any reason the Jedi couldn't have already been a dying force by that point? That it all happened so quickly is another problem with those movies.

Again, it comes down to what Obi Wan tells Luke. "Before the dark times, before the Empire" Obi Wan remembers the better times during the Republic. So all this was set up in the first film. Now I'm not saying Lucas had any ideas at the time of how he was going to show the Republic and a fully functioning Jedi Order, but he had the premise for something with those lines. Also, in the original movie's novelization, that is not cannon now, but technically was back then, I believe in the opening pages it says that the Republic was too great and strong to fall to outside enemies, but it collapsed from within. So you couldn't do a story where the Empire is another "country" that slowly conquers the Republic, culminating in the final betrayal of the Jedi.

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5 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Again, it comes down to what Obi Wan tells Luke. "Before the dark times, before the Empire" Obi Wan remembers the better times during the Republic. So all this was set up in the first film. Now I'm not saying Lucas had any ideas at the time of how he was going to show the Republic and a fully functioning Jedi Order, but he had the premise for something with those lines. Also, in the original movie's novelization, that is not cannon now, but technically was back then, I believe in the opening pages it says that the Republic was too great and strong to fall to outside enemies, but it collapsed from within. So you couldn't do a story where the Empire is another "country" that slowly conquers the Republic, culminating in the final betrayal of the Jedi.

Not necessarily. He says that the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic for 1000 generations, before the dark times, before the Empire. That doesn't have to mean that Obi Wan had to have been around before the empire. When I originally saw the OT my perception was that the Empire had been around for a very long time, and the Jedi even longer, and that the downfall of the Jedi was a longer drawn out process than depicted in the prequels.  The Dark times could have been hundreds of years, the Jedi could have been hunted down for just as long. My take was always that Obi Wan was thinking back to a time when things were better, but that doesn't mean it was a time he himself had experienced. 

Obviously theres this thing called the Clone Wars and that happens, but that could mean anything, hopefully something better than retconning all Storm Troopers to be clones.

All this stuff is really just words that Lucas was throwing at the screen and I highly doubt he had any detailed plan for any of it, it just sounded good in a 70's Star Wars movie. It goes back to previous discussion, the OT was very good at hinting at worlds and timesoutside of the actual story, but is mostly incredibly vague about a lot of it.

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Han says in a New Hope that the Jedi are a myth, a legend, probably a hoax. You'd think that the events in RotS happened hundreds of years prior to a New Hope based on his words. 

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1 hour ago, Relic said:

Han says in a New Hope that the Jedi are a myth, a legend, probably a hoax. You'd think that the events in RotS happened hundreds of years prior to a New Hope based on his words. 

Or that there were a few hundred of them spread out in a galaxy with hundreds of thousands of populated worlds...

(Although Han is a Corellian, so I doubt that would actually hold true for him... but you get my point.)

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5 hours ago, Myrddin said:

Coming 2022: Episode 0: The Conception of Vader

Act One: The Force becomes man; The Force falls for woman and she for... him? It?

Act 2: The Force loses woman.

Act 3: They Force makes up with woman and plants seeds for the destruction of the galaxy.

The End 

 

Act 4: The Force destroys man. Woman inherits the galaxy.

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1 hour ago, Relic said:

Han says in a New Hope that the Jedi are a myth, a legend, probably a hoax. You'd think that the events in RotS happened hundreds of years prior to a New Hope based on his words. 

To be fair, there were about 10,000 Jedi congregating mostly in the Coruscant temple, in a Republic spanning the galaxy. Jedi likely were a myth for 99.9% of the population. 

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38 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Or that there were a few hundred of them spread out in a galaxy with hundreds of thousands of populated worlds...

But this isn't enough on its own. The galaxy also has to be so decentralised and so lacking in information infrastructure that there's no reliable source of facts about the Jedi, so that those people who've never seen one could find it credible that they were mythical all along. But that's not really the galaxy we're shown, particularly in the prequels: that galaxy has easy and frequent travel between planets, which allows sharing of accurate information, and in the prequels, nobody expresses the slightest scepticism when a person claiming to be Jedi shows up.

6 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

To be fair, there were about 10,000 Jedi congregating mostly in the Coruscant temple, in a Republic spanning the galaxy. Jedi likely were a myth for 99.9% of the population. 

Except all those other planets sent representatives to Coruscant to be on the Galactic Senate, so every planet should have direct knowledge of the Jedi.

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20 minutes ago, mormont said:

But this isn't enough on its own. The galaxy also has to be so decentralised and so lacking in information infrastructure that there's no reliable source of facts about the Jedi, so that those people who've never seen one could find it credible that they were mythical all along. But that's not really the galaxy we're shown, particularly in the prequels: that galaxy has easy and frequent travel between planets, which allows sharing of accurate information, and in the prequels, nobody expresses the slightest scepticism when a person claiming to be Jedi shows up.

Except all those other planets sent representatives to Coruscant to be on the Galactic Senate, so every planet should have direct knowledge of the Jedi.

I'm pretty sure Tatooine and many other Outer Rim planets didn't send any representatives. So if you grew up in that part of the galaxy, it's not that surprising to find someone who doesn't believe in the Jedi.

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40 minutes ago, mormont said:

But this isn't enough on its own. The galaxy also has to be so decentralised and so lacking in information infrastructure that there's no reliable source of facts about the Jedi, so that those people who've never seen one could find it credible that they were mythical all along. But that's not really the galaxy we're shown, particularly in the prequels: that galaxy has easy and frequent travel between planets, which allows sharing of accurate information, and in the prequels, nobody expresses the slightest scepticism when a person claiming to be Jedi shows up.

Except all those other planets sent representatives to Coruscant to be on the Galactic Senate, so every planet should have direct knowledge of the Jedi.

I doubt rich senators bothered explaining stuff to street kids like Han. Especially after Order 66

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48 minutes ago, mormont said:

But this isn't enough on its own. The galaxy also has to be so decentralised and so lacking in information infrastructure that there's no reliable source of facts about the Jedi, so that those people who've never seen one could find it credible that they were mythical all along. But that's not really the galaxy we're shown, particularly in the prequels: that galaxy has easy and frequent travel between planets, which allows sharing of accurate information

It's their magic powers that people thought were mythical, not the Jedi themselves. And real-time interplanetary communication does seem to be fairly limited, so a lot of information would be disseminated word-of-mouth from space travellers, who'd still be a tiny fraction of the population.

48 minutes ago, mormont said:

Except all those other planets sent representatives to Coruscant to be on the Galactic Senate, so every planet should have direct knowledge of the Jedi.

Oh, everyone had heard of them; but virtually nobody ever actually saw one with their own eyes.

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4 hours ago, Relic said:

Han says in a New Hope that the Jedi are a myth, a legend, probably a hoax. You'd think that the events in RotS happened hundreds of years prior to a New Hope based on his words. 

Say it with me now, "Pro-pa-gan-da, clap clap clap clap clap."

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Except all those other planets sent representatives to Coruscant to be on the Galactic Senate, so every planet should have direct knowledge of the Jedi.

Funny how they had such great technology but lacked a social media platform. Or T.V. It doesn't seem like information traveled all that easily for the plebs in this universe. 

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