House of the Dragon Series Order Announced

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

So you’re still convinced it’s skipping the conquest?

I guess so.

But then, honestly, the promo add doesn't feel like the Dance - 'Fire will reign' isn't the kind of slogan would expect for a Dance show. That would be something like 'When the dragons clashed' or something of that sort.

'Fire will reign' sounds like something that would work with the Conquest.

But everything George gave us points in the direction of a Dance show - as do the more reliable reports we got before the official announcement came.

[The Dragon Demands]

Interesting...turns out this Wes Tooke fellow also wrote the screenplay for the "Midway" World War II film coming out this weekend. Comes from a Navy family.

The thought just struck me:  

Battle of the Gullet

Good to have a guy like this on the team.

[The Dragon Demands]

I think these are the only writers.  Though it's good that they're making Sapochnik a co-showrunner.  I don't think he's a "writer", but given the repeated behind the scenes production debacles from Benioff and Weiss since the failed pilot (bragging, BRAGGING that they didn't have any training! ) it's great that they're recognizing the production end as important enough to put Sapochnik at the top of the hierarchy in a dedicated position.

But in terms of writing, it looks like we've got Ryan Condal, Wes Tooke, Claire Kiechel, and Ti Mikkel.

Pro:  HALF the writing staff are women.  Two out of four.

Con:  Unfortunate that it has no racial diversity in there.

But...if I had to pick one, getting women in the writer's room is by far the more pressing issue.  it was a much more pervasive problem on Game of Thrones, and there are female characters in every storyline (D&D failed non-white characters too....but if I had to triage which one we desperately need addressed...)

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

But...if I had to pick one, getting women in the writer's room is by far the more pressing issue.  it was a much more pervasive problem on Game of Thrones, and there are female characters in every storyline (D&D failed non-white characters too....but if I had to triage which one we desperately need addressed...)

FaB does have a lot of diversity in the sexual department (the Viserys I/Dance would have Laenor Velaryon, his favorites, Laena/Rhaenyra (who may have been bisexual), Jeyne Arryn, Sabitha Vypren Frey, Alysanne Blackwood, and Racallio Ryndoon). And then there would be Rhaena and her train of favorites, too, if there were non-Dance material to be adapted.

As per the characters the author described there would be very little room for non-white people. There would be Nettles and then one could assume to make some other dragonseeds also of a mixed origin (they all come from a fishing villages and harbor towns where a lot of foreign ships land and people intermingle). For instance, despite the fact that Addam and Alyn of Hull are described as prototypical Valyrians I'd not mind if they and their mother were visibly non-white in some manner.

But the way not only House Targaryen but Westerosi nobility as such is set up - all white guys who intermarry only with other white aristocrats or their white sisters - it should be very difficult.

[The Dragon Demands]

Jeyne Arryn was just a vicious rumor.

 

as for race, simple answer: “foreign mercenaries”.  

the greens ally with the Triarchy: many of them can be nonwhite.  Also seems that Rhaenyra’s side hired a lot of mercenaries from the other free cities, ie  at Second Tumbleton.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

I hope Sean Bean plays old Stark. And do you have any suggestion for Mushroom (who will play him) ?

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

7 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

I hope Sean Bean plays old Stark. And do you have any suggestion for Mushroom (who will play him) ?

They're not going have Sean Bean play another Stark.  That would be like Emilia Clarke playing another Targaryen.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Jeyne Arryn was just a vicious rumor.

In the Dance section it is a rumor, as are her sexual appetites, but when she dies during the Regency her apparent/alleged lover Jessamyn Redfort, called her 'dear companion', is with her and she dies in her arms.

9 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

as for race, simple answer: “foreign mercenaries”.  

the greens ally with the Triarchy: many of them can be nonwhite.  Also seems that Rhaenyra’s side hired a lot of mercenaries from the other free cities, ie  at Second Tumbleton.

There are not many mercenaries in the Dance, and what we know of the Triarchy's involvement indicates Lys, Myr, and Tyrosh actually sent their own fleets rather than sellsails to fight in the Gullet - else people would not have been that pissed about the losses after the battle.

And Rhaenyra doesn't seem to have mercenaries at all - her people at Second Tumbleton were all Riverlords.

But in any case - such people would at best be faces in the background, not crucial characters.

[Mystical]

13 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

But...if I had to pick one, getting women in the writer's room is by far the more pressing issue.  it was a much more pervasive problem on Game of Thrones, and there are female characters in every storyline (D&D failed non-white characters too....but if I had to triage which one we desperately need addressed...)

Gender rarely has anything to do with being a good writer. Even women can write dreadful female characters or scripts. GoT episode 2x04 was written by a woman. That was the episode with Sansa being stripped and beaten in court and the lovely, never ending scene where Joffrey commanded Ros to beat the other sex worker. So we had a female writer and she wrote....that.

While I agree that for certain issues a female perspective can be good and should be made use of, it doesn't automatically mean good scripts, the right handling of sensitive issues from a female perspective or even a female character that's written well.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

1 hour ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

They're not going have Sean Bean play another Stark.  That would be like Emilia Clarke playing another Targaryen.

It wouldn't. People are fed up with Dany played by Emilia but not with Ned.

[The Dragon Demands]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra doesn't seem to have mercenaries at all - her people at Second Tumbleton were all Riverlords.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_Trombo

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_Trombo

Ah, okay, forgot that guy - thanks.

Yes, he would definitely be another black guy.

[The Dragon Demands]

it's not a lot, but shit, it's something.

I sort of rank "diversity" into 3 categories, based on two inverse factors:  1 - how easy it is to put them in, 2 - how important the character actually is.

• Important, major characters.  By definition, it is difficult to simply invent new ones.  Particularly with race, you can't easily say "oh yeah, there was a Stark who happened to be black" (you COULD have a mixed child like Sarella Sand, or Nettles, but you have to explain why such a half-foreigner would be accepted into the power structures of feudal, aristocratic Westeros).  If you DO manage to incorporate a major cast member with racial diversity, even one like Nettles, the impact is greater.  If you incorporate them WELL though.
• Mid-level characters.  A balance between difficulty of incorporating them into the story and importance.  Not as difficult to put them in, but not as important (i.e. "why don't we just change that mercenary sellsail admiral from the Free Cities to make him black?  People from the Free Cities can be black in the storyverse)
• Lower tier, minor characters.  while their narrative impact is minor....SO LITTLE effort would be needed to incorporate them into the story, that there's really no excuse not to.  Granted, their presence wouldn't really give the best diversity, but it's...the only reason you wouldn't put them in is if you just plain forgot.  Such as Chataya and her daughter - why the hell NOT put in some minor black characters from the books themselves?  Not much impact on the plot to be sure, but I've yet to hear of any real explanation for that.  

I'm rambling.  Point is, what really upsets me is point three there:  there's really no excuse to leave out minor background characters, which would require no real effort to put in.  Scatter in some foreign mercenaries here and there - it's a *token gesture* ….all the more insulting when GoT wouldn't do something so easy.  

So I don't know if we're talking a Bronn-scale character or something but....I fear we're forgetting how relatively diverse or …"well traveled" the ASOIAF version of events actually was, given how much GoT "streamlined" it down even in early seasons.  After Whispering Wood, a Tyroshi sellsword company switches sides from the Lannisters to Robb Stark (only to go up the stairs with Chuck Cunningham, never to be seen again...) - or the god-damned Brave Companions!  

Not that unusual to see foreign mercenaries in westeros during major wars.  

So why not just have some foreign mercenary characters fighting at the Butcher's Ball or Bitterbridge or whatever?   it wouldn't be as much impact as a major character, but conversely....it requires such little effort!

[The hairy bear]

18 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Point is, what really upsets me is point three there:  there's really no excuse to leave out minor background characters, which would require no real effort to put in.  Scatter in some foreign mercenaries here and there - it's a *token gesture* ….all the more insulting when GoT wouldn't do something so easy.  

It's a complicated issue, and it can be hard to accommodate all the sensibilities in a satisfying way. For instance, there are many people who would be outraged if all the black skinned people who appeared in the show were unreliable mercenaries or whores. Producers may prefer to be accused of ignoring black people than insulting them.

Another thing to consider is that the show is probably being filmed in Northern Ireland (or at least in Europe), where the racial diversity can be much more reduced that in the United States. Wikipedia says that black people in Northern Ireland amount for 0.2% of the population.

(By the way, if we are talking about diversity, we should not center only on black people. There are many other ethnic groups that get much less representation than them...)

[The Dragon Demands]

Well yeah when I think Myrish I think more often Dornish looking

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

On 11/11/2019 at 11:49 AM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

It wouldn't. People are fed up with Dany played by Emilia but not with Ned.

That's not really the point. They're not going to hire a actor from the previous hit show. Especially a actor who played a major character.

[biosnake20]

There is no way any actor from the previous show is getting hired to play a character. Only thing I could see is Emilia being hired for a voiceover and even that's a stretch.

[M.Alhazred]

On 11/13/2019 at 1:42 PM, biosnake20 said:

There is no way any actor from the previous show is getting hired to play a character. Only thing I could see is Emilia being hired for a voiceover and even that's a stretch.

I can see her bookending the seasons.

[aFeastForDragons]

I'm so glad the Long Night was cancelled. I'm sure there was a good story but after S8 it would have been a mess.

 

Targaryen show has potential but I've lost a lot of interest in ASOIAF. I imagine they'd get some high profile actors for this. 

[Lord Varys]

@The Dragon Demands

Oh, I agree with you that one should keep and include as many non-white as possible in whatever small roles there are in the background. And you really hammered home that fact with your video on them cutting characters like Chataya and Alayaya and turning Dornish ladies into men (and Tanda Stokeworth). But this doesn't really change the fact that on a whole there is effectively not much racial diversity in the books.

I mean, technically only the Salty Dornish look somewhat different than the other people of Westeros. The Stony Dornish are actually known for their fair skin and blond hair, being essentially no different from the Marcher people. There would be some darker skinned people at Sunspear - and especially within House Martell, but if we got, say, an accurate panorama shot of an assembled Dornish army then it should be about half or even two thirds white with only some of them looking like the Rhoynar. And if we had ever any scenes at Yronwood or Skyreach or with the Wyls then the people there would look exactly like the Westerosi people north of the Red Mountains.

If you want to stay faithful to the source material then there is just not a lot racial diversity to be found there. But then, I'd really not mind if some characters who are not from Westeros were not exactly white - even characters like Mysaria who would, if we follow the book description, be just as pale and fair as any other Targaryen.

One could even make Daenaera Velaryon a non-white person (and thus her children not exactly prototypical Targaryens) without causing any internal problems within the family tree considering the branch from which Dany and Jon are descended never absorbed any descendants of Aegon III back in their line.

On 11/12/2019 at 7:32 PM, The hairy bear said:

It's a complicated issue, and it can be hard to accommodate all the sensibilities in a satisfying way. For instance, there are many people who would be outraged if all the black skinned people who appeared in the show were unreliable mercenaries or whores. Producers may prefer to be accused of ignoring black people than insulting them.

Another thing to consider is that the show is probably being filmed in Northern Ireland (or at least in Europe), where the racial diversity can be much more reduced that in the United States. Wikipedia says that black people in Northern Ireland amount for 0.2% of the population.

(By the way, if we are talking about diversity, we should not center only on black people. There are many other ethnic groups that get much less representation than them...)

The way to introduce more overall racial diversity on a meaningfoul level would be to make Marilda of Hull and her children have some non-white ancestry - with Driftmark being that prosperous a place in those days she could have some non-Westerosi ancestry. And if Marilda and her boys looked somewhat Asian, say, then this wouldn't even mean that Monford and Monterys and Aurane from the books - if we pretended for a moment that show and books should be more or less the same thing (GoT never featured any Velaryons, so we don't know how they look there) - would have to look different than they are since I'm not sure that this would still be recognizable after so many generations.

Hugh and Ulf could also look different, although that would feed the common narrative of non-white being the bad guys.

Although one could certainly also make Two Betrayers much more sympathetic and more rounded characters, giving us an actual explanation for their betrayal rather than just speculation, not the mention that it would be possibly to shift the blame for the betrayal more to the Green agents recruiting them to their side rather than them being just disloyal turncloaks. And especially Hugh could be portrayed as a charismatic warrior-king type of guy, who does not only draw scum to his side. The real scum in that story are the Caltrops, Prince Daeron included.