Why did Aegon the Conqueror didn't have more children?

[Lord Varys]

15 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that major reason why Targs had problem with the Faith was that Maegor's first wife was a Hightower. Or her uncle misused his authority to keep Ceryse as a member of royal family. So if M would have had different wife the Faith might not been happy but almost certainly had caused less problems. In fact I am almost certain that if Maegor's new wife had been a Hightower, or if Hightower had gained more power via that divorce, the Faith almost certainly had even supported it.

That may be the case, but we don't really know that the High Septon of 39 AC who started the Faith Militant Uprising was Ceryse's uncle. That was the guy back 25 AC when Maegor married Ceryse. And when the Uprising High Septon died in 43 AC he was only 53 years old, meaning he would have to be 35 years old when he married Ceryse to Maegor ... which would be a rather young age for a High Septon, one assumes.

I agree that the narrative seems to imply that it is the same High Septon, but the numbers don't seem to support this idea.

Also, the whole issue the Faith had with Maegor's second marriage seems to be the fact that it was effectively a divorce and a remarriage not so much polygamy as such. Alys wasn't added to the first wife, Maegor declared Ceryse was barren, separated from her, and co-habited only with Alys. He also never asked permission from Aenys or the High Septon to take a second wife. Perhaps they would have permitted that. With his barbaric Valyrian marriage rites he pretty much spat on the Faith.

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That may be the case, but we don't really know that the High Septon of 39 AC who started the Faith Militant Uprising was Ceryse's uncle. That was the guy back 25 AC when Maegor married Ceryse. And when the Uprising High Septon died in 43 AC he was only 53 years old, meaning he would have to be 35 years old when he married Ceryse to Maegor ... which would be a rather young age for a High Septon, one assumes.

I agree that the narrative seems to imply that it is the same High Septon, but the numbers don't seem to support this idea.

I was thinking about this some time ago, and there could be a reason why there was such a young High Septon in 23 AC. If Ceryse's uncle was the High Septon during the uprising, there would have been five High Septons between 11 AC and whenever the uncle was chosen, so aproximately a new one every two years. It would make sense for the Most Devout to decide they want a young and vigorous one after that decade. And he would have had the support of Lord Manfred Hightower, as well.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I was thinking about this some time ago, and there could be a reason why there was such a young High Septon in 23 AC. If Ceryse's uncle was the High Septon during the uprising, there would have been five High Septons between 11 AC and whenever the uncle was chosen, so aproximately a new one every two years. It would make sense for the Most Devout to decide they want a young and vigorous one after that decade. And he would have had the support of Lord Manfred Hightower, as well.

Yes, yes, that would be my reading as well ... if you want to go with a scenario where it is just one High Septon all along. Which I think is what the narrative suggests. If Ceryse's kinship to the High Septon were to play no role in the start of the war then it could have just been dropped. And if there had been a succession of High Septons between 25 and 39 AC then Ceryse's connection a long-dead High Septon would have been irrelevant.

We can speculate that a string of old High Septons going the road of the first couple of Grand Maesters led to the election of a younger man.

In this context:

@Ran, can you enlighten us where you got the information that the High Septon who was Ceryse's uncle was 'kin by marriage' to the Hightowers, i.e. Ceryse's uncle on her mother's side and not on her father's?

You have that in TWoIaF but neither the text of TSotD from 'The Book of Swords' nor FaB as published specifies how exactly Ceryse and the High Septon are related. It just states that the guy was her uncle:

Quote

FaB text: 'His High Holiness proposed a different bride for Maegor: his own niece, Ceryse Hightower, maiden daughter to the Lord of Oldtown, Manfred Hightower (not to be confused with his grandsire of the same name). King Aegon, mindful of the advantages of closer ties with Oldtown and its ruling house, saw wisdom in the choice and agreed to the match.'

TSotD text: 'He proposed a different bride for Maegor: Ceryse Hightower, maiden daughter to the Lord of Oldtown (and the High Septon’s own niece). Aegon, mindful of the advantages of closer ties with Oldtown and its ruling House, saw wisdom in the choice and agreed to the match.'

If the High Septon were actually born a Hightower himself (one would assume he would have to be a younger brother of the second Lord Manfred Hightower in this case) this would help explain his hold over the city throughout the war as well as making his murder - assuming the Hightowers were behind that - all that more grievous considering he was a close relative of theirs. Especially if Lady Patrice actually did the deed, since she, as Martyn's maiden aunt, would then have been the High Septon's own sister.

[King Jon Targaryen I]

It's possible he couldn't have children and Aegon did not care if those children where his cause his logic they have the blood of the Dragon because they would be his sister's children. I think Maegor is Aegon's trueborn son but thru magic while Aenys is his nephew, but he treated him like a son because he liked Rhaenys. This is my theory on Aegon and the possibility that he was sterile. 

[GOTSeriesfan]

Aegon was already married to Rhaenys and Visenya and he had two children with them, Aenys and Maegor, and he wasn't promiscuous or irresponsible in any way, so that's why he didn't have any more kids

[EggBlue]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:09 PM, Angel Eyes said:

How come Aegon the Conqueror only had two children? These were born relatively late; Aenys was born when Aegon was 34, and Maegor when he was nearly 40. Compare with Ned Stark who had five children (six if you count Jon) by the same age. It just seems unwise, since Aenys was a weak heir whose parentage was disputed, and Maegor was a psychopathic monster.

maybe they did not enjoy each other's company as spouses quite so much . " the dragon must have three heads "  sounds so utterly idiotic if it's a reference to Aegon and his two sisters and their polygamic relationship. it must be an older more magical reference , possibly one that convinced the three siblings to wed , conqueror seven kingdoms and have kids out of duty . 

but more realistically , probably George wanted the two brothers against each other a lot and more siblings would have complicated the matters! 

[Lord Varys]

On 5/18/2022 at 2:01 PM, EggBlue said:

but more realistically , probably George wanted the two brothers against each other a lot and more siblings would have complicated the matters! 

Nah, he could have turned the younger brothers into maesters or septons or Kingsguard. They could have still played roles in the succession crisis and stuff, but not as pretenders in their own right.

And of course, both Aenys and Maegor having a younger full brother could have added spice to the later struggles, adding a dragonrider to each faction.

The Targaryens being constantly just a nuclear family, and sometimes down to just one heir is a constant threat to the dynasty, and while it is fun to see this as well, there should also have been times when this wasn't the case. And the early days are basically the best time for this. Especially since both Maegor's reign and the Dance could have dealt with most or all the cadet branches.

[EggBlue]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, he could have turned the younger brothers into maesters or septons or Kingsguard. They could have still played roles in the succession crisis as stuff, but not as pretenders in their own right.

And of course, both Aenys and Maegor having a younger full brother could have added spice to the later struggles, adding a dragonrider to each faction.

The Targaryens being constantly just a nuclear family, and sometimes down to just one heir is a constant threat to the dynasty, and while it is fun to see this as well, there should also have been times when this wasn't the case. And the early days are basically the best time for this. Especially since both Maegor's reign and the Dance could have dealt with most or all the cadet branches.

then I go back to my theory. read above

[Angel Eyes]

14 hours ago, GOTSeriesfan said:

Aegon was already married to Rhaenys and Visenya and he had two children with them, Aenys and Maegor, and he wasn't promiscuous or irresponsible in any way, so that's why he didn't have any more kids

Then the matter of the question goes back to why there weren't more before them; contrast with Ned Stark who had five children by the time he was 35 (six if you count Jon Snow), a year older than Aegon was when Aenys was born.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Then the matter of the question goes back to why there weren't more before them; contrast with Ned Stark who had five children by the time he was 35 (six if you count Jon Snow), a year older than Aegon was when Aenys was born.

Yes, the core problem basically is that both sons - but especially Aenys - are born only this late after the Conquest. Both boys or Aenys at least could have been born (some time) before the Conquest. That way the lack of children could have been explained by both Rhaenys and Visenya having trouble to conceive again - or no longer being able to bear children - due to a troubled and very dangerous pregnancy.

Instead, we get a polygamous marriage which remains childless for years and years, possibly even decades, before one of the woman so much as gets pregnant.

We don't know when Aegon married, but even if they married a year before the beginning of the Conquest, it would still take Rhaenys a decade to give birth to Aenys, and fifteen years until Visenya produced Maegor. What we know about Targaryen marriage customs, though, would imply that they married years before the Conquest, around the time Aegon himself was 15-16. And that would mean that they actually married in 11-12 BC, about a decade before the (beginning of) the Conquest.

The fact that the Targaryens were apparently down to Aegon and his sister-wives (and the unacknowledged Targaryen bastard Orys Baratheon) at the time, it would also make little sense to assume that the marriage was postponed. The Targaryens needed children who could inherit Dragonstone and ride their dragons even before they made plans to conquer all of Westeros.

But after the Conquest the idea that they would sit on their asses for 6-7 and 11-12 years not trying to produce children is completely unbelievable. Aegon would have tried with Rhaenys and when it wouldn't and wouldn't work he would have turned to Visenya to try with her as well, although perhaps not as frequently and determined as he tried with Rhaenys.

Yet there were no pregnancies and no children until the birth of Aenys. And even then it took five years for Maegor to be born.

[BlackLightning]

On 5/18/2022 at 7:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yes, the core problem basically is that both sons - but especially Aenys - are born only this late after the Conquest. Both boys or Aenys at least could have been born (some time) before the Conquest. That way the lack of children could have been explained by both Rhaenys and Visenya having trouble to conceive again - or no longer being able to bear children - due to a troubled and very dangerous pregnancy.

Instead, we get a polygamous marriage which remains childless for years and years, possibly even decades, before one of the woman so much as gets pregnant.

We don't know when Aegon married, but even if they married a year before the beginning of the Conquest, it would still take Rhaenys a decade to give birth to Aenys, and fifteen years until Visenya produced Maegor. What we know about Targaryen marriage customs, though, would imply that they married years before the Conquest, around the time Aegon himself was 15-16. And that would mean that they actually married in 11-12 BC, about a decade before the (beginning of) the Conquest.

The fact that the Targaryens were apparently down to Aegon and his sister-wives (and the unacknowledged Targaryen bastard Orys Baratheon) at the time, it would also make little sense to assume that the marriage was postponed. The Targaryens needed children who could inherit Dragonstone and ride their dragons even before they made plans to conquer all of Westeros.

But after the Conquest the idea that they would sit on their asses for 6-7 and 11-12 years not trying to produce children is completely unbelievable. Aegon would have tried with Rhaenys and when it wouldn't and wouldn't work he would have turned to Visenya to try with her as well, although perhaps not as frequently and determined as he tried with Rhaenys.

Yet there were no pregnancies and no children until the birth of Aenys. And even then it took five years for Maegor to be born.

Yeah, if I was to rewrite anything about this early part of the series, I would make it so that Aegon had -- at most -- two daughters by Rhaenys: one that was born on Dragonstone before the Conquest and another that was born in King's Landing sometime after the Conquest but before the First Dornish War.

I wouldn't want to add any more children beyond that. If the Conqueror had too many children (especially if he had more male children), then that changes everything.

A big part of Maegor's tyranny is that Maegor was usurping and abusing his underaged, dragonless nieces and nephews. If Aegon I had more children, then Maegor's most dangerous adversaries would not be a brood of children and their widowed, isolated mother: he'd be pitted against his full-grown siblings who would likely have spouses, children, armies and dragons of their own. Not to mention that these siblings would almost certainly be significantly older than him which puts his claim much further down the totem pole. Being so far down the line of succession, in turn, would make Maegor's military strength unbelievable.

Who - outside of Maegor's household guard and the smallfolk he commands - would bend the knee to him in that case? Especially with the Faith of the Seven so antagonistic towards him. Unless he was able to incapacitate and slaughter his siblings and their families in one or two fell swoops, he'd be hopelessly outnumbered and there'd be too many better, more sensible options. Maegor would also have to be a signifcantly different person to wipe out huge chunks of his own family so that he could be king. Maegor, as the story is written, had a good reason for doing what he did after Aenys died. He was cruel but not monstrous. More Tywin, less Ramsay.

Unless the goal would have been to have Targaryen civil wars, I understand why GRRM made it so that Aegon I had only two children. Any more and the story would be too similar to the Dance of the Dragons or the First Blackfyre Rebellion...or even the main story of A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

Of course, 

If I was feeling frisky, I might give Aegon a third son by Visenya...one that would be Maegor's junior.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Yeah, if I was to rewrite anything about this early part of the series, I would make it so that Aegon had -- at most -- two daughters by Rhaenys: one that was born on Dragonstone before the Conquest and another that was born in King's Landing sometime after the Conquest but before the First Dornish War.

A pre-Conquest daughter could work easily enough, since she might be already married and/or dead (in childbirth) by the time Aenys Targaryen is born. If we go with Aegon I marrying around 12-10 BC such a daughter could be approaching twenty when Rhaenys got pregnant with Aenys.

George could have even gone with such a daughter marrying into House Velaryon and being the mother of Alyssa Velaryon.

Another daughter born shortly before/around the Conquest could be married to Orys Baratheon's firstborn son (who seems to have been born immediately after the Conquest).

The reason why Aenys and Maegor have no sisters to marry is that George wanted the incest thing be the cause for the Faith Militant Uprising which was to explode only after Aegon's death.

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I wouldn't want to add any more children beyond that. If the Conqueror had too many children (especially if he had more male children), then that changes everything.

More sons could have worked easily enough, especially if they ended up joining the Faith, the Kingsguard, the Night's Watch, the Citadel, etc. But there could also have been room for a brother who just lived alongside Aenys and Maegor and who had the political acumen to stay clear of the succession war or remain on good terms with all factions.

5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Who - outside of Maegor's household guard and the smallfolk he commands - would bend the knee to him in that case? Especially with the Faith of the Seven so antagonistic towards him. Unless he was able to incapacitate and slaughter his siblings and their families in one or two fell swoops, he'd be hopelessly outnumbered and there'd be too many better, more sensible options. Maegor would also have to be a signifcantly different person to wipe out huge chunks of his own family so that he could be king. Maegor, as the story is written, had a good reason for doing what he did after Aenys died. He was cruel but not monstrous. More Tywin, less Ramsay.

We would assume that hypothetical brothers of Maegor had dragons, but not necessarily sisters or the sons of sisters who had married outside the family.

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A pre-Conquest daughter could work easily enough, since she might be already married and/or dead (in childbirth) by the time Aenys Targaryen is born. If we go with Aegon I marrying around 12-10 AC such a daughter could be approaching twenty when Rhaenys got pregnant with Aenys.

Do you mean BC?

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Do you mean BC?

Yes ;-).

[C.T. Phipps]

I think that Aenys is actually Aegon's child but the possibility was there. There's a good deal of humor in the fact that, yes, that pedigree doesn't determine if you're a badass or not. Besides, as we know with this series, breeding with anyone outside of the Targaryen line tends to disrupt their trademark looks.

So are we to assume it was a white-haired violet-eyed singer?

I think not.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Besides, as we know with this series, breeding with anyone outside of the Targaryen line tends to disrupt their trademark looks.

No, it doesn't. Alicent Hightower seems to have had no Targaryen or Valyrian blood at all ... and yet all four of her children had distinct Valyrian looks.

We also have the Velaryons mostly retaining the Valyrian looks despite the fact that they do not not practice sibling incest.

All Rhaenys would have needed for her son to look pretty Valyrian would have been to pick a fair-haired, blue-eyed guy as a father.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it doesn't. Alicent Hightower seems to have had no Targaryen or Valyrian blood at all ... and yet all four of her children had distinct Valyrian looks. We also have the Velaryons mostly retaining the Valyrian looks despite the fact that they do not not practice sibling incest.

All Rhaenys would have needed for her son to look pretty Valyrian would have been to pick a fair-haired, blue-eyed guy as a father.

The Targaryens also turned out to practice a lot of cousin incest over sibling incest as well. They also notably interbred with the Velaryons a lot as well.

Which, well, undercuts that argument a bit.

So while I don't dispute it, I do note that Aegon being the father is not nearly as unlikely as some other theories.

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The Targaryens also turned out to practice a lot of cousin incest over sibling incest as well. They also notably interbred with the Velaryons a lot as well.

Which, well, undercuts that argument a bit.

So while I don't dispute it, I do note that Aegon being the father is not nearly as unlikely as some other theories.

It is not just Alicent - most of Daeron II's sons had Valyrian looks (Maekar even had very distinct Valyrian looks and it also seems that most of his children did, too, aside from Daeron ... but even he was fair-haired). And then you have Egg's wife Betha Blackwood - only one of her sons (and likely none of her daughters) inherited her dark hair, and none of her grandchildren or great-grandchildren.

Rhaegar's son by Elia Martell, Aegon, also looked Valyrian.

Rhaenyra's three son are rather exceptional in the sense that none of them looks like their mother. In most cases most of the Targaryen children inherit the Valyrian looks. Although Jaehaerys and Alysanne demonstrate that even in an incestuous union some children might look distinctly different.

As I laid out above repeatedly ... the biggest issue with Aenys is that Aegon had only that one child with Rhaenys and that late in their marriage ... and that there were rumors both that he wasn't the Conqueror's seed and that his mother, Queen Rhaenys, entertained lovers. That is enough for doubt.

And if the Conqueror and/or his sister-wives had realized that his sperm simply couldn't do the trick ... the logical next step is to get the queen(s) pregnant by outside assistance, especially at such a late point in their marriage. They needed heirs, not just to continue the dynasty but to preserve their conquest. If there had no clear heir to protect and help them in their old age, to mount a dragon to deal with potential usurpers and rebels and lords who wanted to wear their crowns ago ... the mob may have butchered as soon as they showed any weakness. Those dragons aren't any good if nobody can fly them. And we see that Alysanne was incapable of flying Silverwing almost ten years before her death. Visenya, of course, retained that ability nearly until her death ... but there was no guarantee for that.

And it is certainly quite fitting to assume that the two kings who felt like having multiple wives at the same time were actually sterile. It is even better in Aegon's case than in Maegor's.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is certainly quite fitting to assume that the two kings who felt like having multiple wives at the same time were actually sterile. It is even better in Aegon's case than in Maegor's.

This is kind of my point as Maegor isn't sterile. He's sired multiple children, they were just stillborn.

Either because:

1. He's very likely a R'hlorite Zombie at this point.

2. Tyanna really was working dark magic on them.

I note that Maegor wasn't personable or fun but he wasn't a MONSTER until his traumatic brain injury/zombiefication.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

This is kind of my point as Maegor isn't sterile. He's sired multiple children, they were just stillborn.

Either because:

1. He's very likely a R'hlorite Zombie at this point.

2. Tyanna really was working dark magic on them.

I note that Maegor wasn't personable or fun but he wasn't a MONSTER until his traumatic brain injury/zombiefication.

Maegor was distinctly sterile with Ceryse Hightower, his wife for decades, for years with Alys Harroway and Tyanna of the Tower (Alys was with him from 39-44 AC, and Tyanna joined during the Pentoshi exile in the same year), and with his niece Rhaena (although only a few months with her).

He eventually got Alys pregnant ... or not. Her child could have been conceived with outside assistance.

Jeyne's and Elinor's pregnancies may have been caused by him, true enough, but it is still rather odd that Maegor was only capable of fathering a child in 44 AC and then later on in 47/48 AC. We don't know how this happened, but chances are not that bad that magic may have played a role there as well. Rather than poisoning the children as she claimed, Tyanna could have helped Maegor to impregnate his wives.

Maegor was always a monster, his head injury didn't really change him. The only difference is that King Maegor could do as he pleased ... while Prince Maegor couldn't do that. He was kept in line first by his father and then by his elder brother.

The idea with Aegon is that Rhaenys turned to a sperm-donor while Visenya may have also resorted to magic to conceive Maegor ... with or without Aegon's involvement. The coolest theory about Maegor is that he is actually a male clone of Visenya created by magic, mimicking one of the main characters from George's 'Nightflyers' novella. Both sons of the Conqueror are actually dialed-up, male versions of their respective mothers. So it could really make sense if their alleged father really had nothing to do with their conception.

They would still be Targaryens through their mothers. That's the fun part when you have incestuous marriages and the 'magical bloodline' is important for the plot of the main books.