Why did Aegon the Conqueror didn't have more children?

[C.T. Phipps]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Maegor was always a monster, his head injury didn't really change him.

I'd argue his behavior in Fire and Blood shows a dramatic difference as Maegor isn't a kinslayer or usurper before his injury. He is, indeed, very important to the protection of his brother's kingdom despite the gross insults as well as lack of support he got from him. He wiped out enemies of the Crown but his cruelties are stated in the text to have been added retroactively when he was just harsh and humorless.

I don't dispute the "Maegor was made with magic" business but I also think his actions prior to his resurrection were a lot more reasonable. I will point out that the points to his being Aegon's son is the fact that he was accepted by his father's dragon as well.

I also should note that conception can be surprisingly difficult for some couples and that some can, indeed, try for decades without issue. The books never imply any alternative explanation for Maegor finally conceiving later in life and I'm inclined to think that it was simply the Targaryens with low sperm account over complete sterility.

Perhaps because Maegor is a zombie or was conceived with black magic. But there's no implication his three sired children weren't Maegor's actual children-children. It's also possible "Maegor's bastard" really was just his bastard son at the Great Council and the fact they dismissed him was solely because he WASNT a deformed monster.

(Probably because Tyanna didn't poison their mother)

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'd argue his behavior in Fire and Blood shows a dramatic difference as Maegor isn't a kinslayer or usurper before his injury. He is, indeed, very important to the protection of his brother's kingdom despite the gross insults as well as lack of support he got from him. He wiped out enemies of the Crown but his cruelties are stated in the text to have been added retroactively when he was just harsh and humorless.

I suggest you reread the chapter in question. The one thing that is suggested to have been a retroactive calumny is Maegor killing a cat with his first sword at the age of three. Confirmed is that he stabbed a palfrey who had kicked him at the age of eight, slashing off half of the face of the stableboy who came running at the screams of the animal (indicating Maegor enjoyed torturing the animal rather putting her out of her misery quickly).

During the reign of the Conqueror there are no other atrocities reported - also one imagines that he showed no mercy in the campaigns he partook in those years - but then we get to the Arryn rebellion where he showed no mercy at all and broke with the social norms by hanging all the traitors, independent of their birth (nobility would have had the right to a clean beheading).

Another insult to social norms and to his wife and king was his second marriage in 39 AC which literally triggered the whole Faith Militant Uprising. Maegor wasn't an asset of the Targaryen dynasty, he was the one who rocked the boat.

Maegor was also already a usurper before his head injury, crowning himself on Dragonstone before flying to KL, and murdering the aged Grand Maester protesting his usurpation.

There is no remarkable difference in Maegor's behavior after the head injury. The only thing that changed is that he had royal power afterwards and used it as he saw fit.

And his atrocities as king grew only worse overtime. At first he didn't persecute his own family ... he only killed Aegon when he actually rebelled, and Viserys he only tortured and killed after he Alyssa and the younger children fled.

It seems that the death of Visenya had more to do with Maegor's atrocities than his head injury. She stopped him from staging too many executions after the defeat of Aegon the Uncrowned.

11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I don't dispute the "Maegor was made with magic" business but I also think his actions prior to his resurrection were a lot more reasonable. I will point out that the points to his being Aegon's son is the fact that he was accepted by his father's dragon as well.

I don't think that's a good argument in light of who the dragons Vermithor and Silverwing accepted.

11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I also should note that conception can be surprisingly difficult for some couples and that some can, indeed, try for decades without issue. The books never imply any alternative explanation for Maegor finally conceiving later in life and I'm inclined to think that it was simply the Targaryens with low sperm account over complete sterility.

Both Maegor and Aegon had more than one woman to try with. Aegon apparently kept no mistresses but he had two wives and both only got pregnant very late in life when they were married for a decades. Ceryse may very well have been barren, but Maegor likely had other women beside her in the years of their marriage before falling in love with Alys.

11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Perhaps because Maegor is a zombie or was conceived with black magic. But there's no implication his three sired children weren't Maegor's actual children-children. It's also possible "Maegor's bastard" really was just his bastard son at the Great Council and the fact they dismissed him was solely because he WASNT a deformed monster.

Chances are not that good that the Great Council bastard was Maegor's son because Maegor desperately wanted a son and would have likely legitimized any male bastard he had to have an heir that wasn't Aerea.

[C.T. Phipps]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are not that good that the Great Council bastard was Maegor's son because Maegor desperately wanted a son and would have likely legitimized any male bastard he had to have an heir that wasn't Aerea.

Undoubtedly he would have but he was a product of rape and not one of his kept mistresses. You don't even have to speculate hard about why Maegor wouldn't know about the man. It's a Ramsay Bolton situation where the mother is left with the aftermath of one of a lord's cruelties.

As stated, Maegor has already shown himself to be fertile. It's just the children were deformed and we have an in-universe reason why that may be.

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During the reign of the Conqueror there are no other atrocities reported - also one imagines that he showed no mercy in the campaigns he partook in those years - but then we get to the Arryn rebellion where he showed no mercy at all and broke with the social norms by hanging all the traitors, independent of their birth (nobility would have had the right to a clean beheading).

Another insult to social norms and to his wife and king was his second marriage in 39 AC which literally triggered the whole Faith Militant Uprising. Maegor wasn't an asset of the Targaryen dynasty, he was the one who rocked the boat.

The Arryn campaign is a weird place to call an atrocity because not only are the traitors regicides (or lordicides) and led by a kinslayer no less, but they are double-traitors that not only killed their first lord but then promptly killed the second one they were following. The book makes no attempt to frame the act as an atrocity and it seems closer to Cregan Stark's justice.

As for his second wife, that is base hypocrisy on the part of Aenys given his own behavior with his children. I blame him for not supporting his brother's second marriage. Given so many Westerosi lords have mistresses and more, complaining about Maegor's second marriage to a willing woman is also ridiculous.

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Both Maegor and Aegon had more than one woman to try with. Aegon apparently kept no mistresses but he had two wives and both only got pregnant very late in life when they were married for a decades. Ceryse may very well have been barren, but Maegor likely had other women beside her in the years of their marriage before falling in love with Alys.

We know Maegor sired 3 children, possibly four. The description of the children's deformities matches the ones with Daeny's unborn child and so its very likely that magic was involved on Tyanna's part, which is another reason the Bastard might be fine.

We also don't know if Tyanna was preventing any other pregnancies. Its only outside of her auspices that we'd know what sort of offpsring maegor might have.

[Lord Varys]

51 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Undoubtedly he would have but he was a product of rape and not one of his kept mistresses. You don't even have to speculate hard about why Maegor wouldn't know about the man. It's a Ramsay Bolton situation where the mother is left with the aftermath of one of a lord's cruelties.

So we are assuming the alleged bastard himself - who wasn't there when he was conceived - knew the truth, but Maegor himself was never told? That strikes me as unlikely. Ramsay's mother ensured Roose learned about the consequences of his actions, so that woman would have likely done something similar if she had truly carried Maegor's son to term.

51 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The Arryn campaign is a weird place to call an atrocity because not only are the traitors regicides (or lordicides) and led by a kinslayer no less, but they are double-traitors that not only killed their first lord but then promptly killed the second one they were following. The book makes no attempt to frame the act as an atrocity and it seems closer to Cregan Stark's justice.

It shows that Maegor was already capable of cruelty long before his head injury.

The narrative just isn't one of change after a near death experience. Maegor is not Caligula (although in his case that's also just weird narrative), he was always a sadistic brute. It is just that he finally could do what he wanted after he was king and after his mother was finally gone.

He wasn't a good guy first and then some sickness turned him into a monster.

51 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

As for his second wife, that is base hypocrisy on the part of Aenys given his own behavior with his children. I blame him for not supporting his brother's second marriage. Given so many Westerosi lords have mistresses and more, complaining about Maegor's second marriage to a willing woman is also ridiculous.

Maegor's second marriage was done without the king's permission nor with the leave of the Faith. And it wasn't just the inclusion of a second wife in the continuing first marriage ... but rather effectively a divorce and a remarriage. Maegor declared Ceryse was barren and then separated, living only with Alys afterwards. In light of who and what Ceryse was that was clearly both a humiliation and provocation of the Faith.

Polygamy wasn't a common Targaryen custom, especially not for one who wasn't the head of his house. Incest was the rule, though, so Aenys deciding to marry his children to each other wasn't exactly a surprise. It certainly may have been unwise to do that at this point before the Maegor issue had been resolved.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So we are assuming the alleged bastard himself - who wasn't there when he was conceived - knew the truth, but Maegor himself was never told? That strikes me as unlikely. Ramsay's mother ensured Roose learned about the consequences of his actions, so that woman would have likely done something similar if she had truly carried Maegor's son to term.

I'm not sure there's a train connecting the points here. How would Maegor be told about some random Smallfolk person he raped having his bastard? There's certainly many reasons not to tell him about it from her perspective as well. He could be a pretender but there's also the fact he could simply be Maegor's issue not poisoned by Tyanna.

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The narrative just isn't one of change after a near death experience. Maegor is not Caligula (although in his case that's also just weird narrative), he was always a sadistic brute. It is just that he finally could do what he wanted after he was king and after his mother was finally gone.

No, I think he died and came back as a shadow of his former self as resurrection into something less than what you were is a thing that happens in Westeros.

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Polygamy wasn't a common Targaryen custom, especially not for one who wasn't the head of his house. Incest was the rule, though, so Aenys deciding to marry his children to each other wasn't exactly a surprise. It certainly may have been unwise to do that at this point before the Maegor issue had been resolved.

Fire and Blood says that its not as common as incest but it's something that has happened in the past so it wasn't a decision by Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

39 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'm not sure there's a train connecting the points here. How would Maegor be told about some random Smallfolk person he raped having his bastard? There's certainly many reasons not to tell him about it from her perspective as well. He could be a pretender but there's also the fact he could simply be Maegor's issue not poisoned by Tyanna.

In light of how desperate Maegor was to prove that he was a real man by having a child one could actually think he actually kept track of all the smallfolk women that he raped.

And of course - the raped woman would both not want to care for the king's rape child and know that the king didn't have any children ... so it could be quite profitable to inform him about this. Like Ramsay's mother did.

39 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

No, I think he died and came back as a shadow of his former self as resurrection into something less than what you were is a thing that happens in Westeros.

No indication that Tyanna had any connection to the red priests, so that's not very likely. Nor is it particularly likely that a public figure like a king could actually hide rotting body parts or lethal injuries. Not to mention that chances are very bad that such creatures are still able to have intercourse or father children. Vice versa, I'm also not expecting that Lady Stoneheart is going to get pregnant soon.

Maegor didn't die, he was just in a pretty long coma.

39 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Fire and Blood says that its not as common as incest but it's something that has happened in the past so it wasn't a decision by Aegon.

Yes, there is precedent for polygamy among the Valyrian sorcerer princes, and Lord Aenar apparently also had multiple wives at the same time. But Maegor was supposed to stick to Ceryse and he knew that. If he had thought it was okay to take a second wife he would have invited Aenys and his other family and Ceryse and the High Septon to the wedding. He may have even asked the High Septon to officiate at that wedding like he had done for the first.

But that didn't happen. He married in secret and without royal permission, causing a huge scandal.

There is certainly a chance that King Aenys or any other Targaryen monarch may have been able to cite Aegon's sister-wives as a precedent why kings could practice polygamy (some First Men kings did it as well), but Prince Maegor wasn't a king yet, and he didn't have the permission or support of his royal brother in this matter.

As king Maegor forced the people to kind of accept his many wives, but not to the degree that his successors on the Iron Throne followed his example. Jaehaerys I gets very angry when Saera tries to emulate her great-uncle, suggesting she could take multiple husbands. And it doesn't seem that the problem there is that Saera was a girl ... but rather the polygamy thing.

This is a rather interesting issue since it certainly does reflect on the Rhaegar situation. He as a mere prince could likely also not take a second wife without the leave of his royal father. If he married Lyanna in secret or without Aerys' permission and support, the status of that marriage should be more or less the same as the status of Maegor-Alys while Maegor wasn't king yet. And at that point we can expect that Aenys and the Westerosi would have viewed any children from that union as bastards, not legitimate children.

[EggBlue]

I've just realized that originally Aegon wasn't a polygamist .. in Blood of the Dragon novella which was published about 1 month before a Game of thrones , apparently Aegon has only one wife ... so , had George just changed his mind and thought 3 is a better number? or , as I speculate , it's got something to do with "the dragon has three heads" which is first stated in Clash of Kings ? which brings me back to my little assumption/theory that Aegon and his sisters did not wed out of "Aegon married Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of love"* and that they actually had some reasoning behind their sudden polygamic relationship . which can explain why they apparently (at least according to this thread) didn't try hard enough for more children . they were bound due to duty , not affection nor passion . note that (if I recall correctly) after Aenar , our Aegon is the first and last Targaryen lord in Dragonsrone who had more than one wife .

 

*may I just rant a bit about how that statement in F&B is so conveniently conventional? of course , Aegon married the more feminine sister out of love after having to tolerate his more unconventional sister.... and no explanation as to why Visenya would be alright with sharing her husband and her status as lady of Dragonstone and Queen with her younger sister, without so much of uttering a complaint...

[C.T. Phipps]

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Jaehaerys I gets very angry when Saera tries to emulate her great-uncle, suggesting she could take multiple husbands. And it doesn't seem that the problem there is that Saera was a girl ... but rather the polygamy thing.

@Lord Varys

I believe there's an Occam's Razor explanation that Jaehaerys wasn't infuriated about the polygamy matter (which was ridiculous as an assertion under the circumstances anyway) but the fact she was invoking MAEGOR THE CRUEL who Jaehaerys had been personally terrorized by. It would be somewhat akin to Daenerys being told about a precedent by Robert Baratheon or Aegon III by Aegon II.

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This is a rather interesting issue since it certainly does reflect on the Rhaegar situation. He as a mere prince could likely also not take a second wife without the leave of his royal father. If he married Lyanna in secret or without Aerys' permission and support, the status of that marriage should be more or less the same as the status of Maegor-Alys while Maegor wasn't king yet. And at that point we can expect that Aenys and the Westerosi would have viewed any children from that union as bastards, not legitimate children.

This is actually something that I was wondering about the fan theory regarding because Rhaegar marrying Lyanna Stark in a Targaryen polygamous marriage is not nearly the, "Well, it will be immediately accepted and Jon Snow is the legal heir to the Seven Kingdoms" that I think fan theorists think it is. Especially since the Conciliator made the exceptionalism doctrine for incest not polygamy.

The show actually corrected this even if Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Dorne makes him even scummier as well as disinheriting his legitimate children that I don't even think is a thing in Westeros. Otherwise, Maegor would have done it with his first wife (and without issue was a way in RL to get an anunnlment).

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*may I just rant a bit about how that statement in F&B is so conveniently conventional? of course , Aegon married the more feminine sister out of love after having to tolerate his more unconventional sister.... and no explanation as to why Visenya would be alright with sharing her husband and her status as lady of Dragonstone and Queen with her younger sister, without so much of uttering a complaint...

I honestly would love some more analysis about what their real feelings were regarding the relationship as they seem to have gotten along quite well (albeit, Visenya may have murdered her nephew so it may not have been as good as it seemed). Certainly, Aegon also seems to have been fairly blaise about the possibility of his second wife sharing her bed with other men as well.

We also don't know Visenya's actual sexual proclivities were. Was she attracted to her brother or was he someone she married for duty as well? Certainly, she seems to have taken no lovers after Aegon.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I've just realized that originally Aegon wasn't a polygamist .. in Blood of the Dragon novella which was published about 1 month before a Game of thrones , apparently Aegon has only one wife ... so , had George just changed his mind and thought 3 is a better number? or , as I speculate , it's got something to do with "the dragon has three heads" which is first stated in Clash of Kings ? which brings me back to my little assumption/theory that Aegon and his sisters did not wed out of "Aegon married Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of love"* and that they actually had some reasoning behind their sudden polygamic relationship . which can explain why they apparently (at least according to this thread) didn't try hard enough for more children . they were bound due to duty , not affection nor passion . note that (if I recall correctly) after Aenar , our Aegon is the first and last Targaryen lord in Dragonsrone who had more than one wife .

That at least indicates that George came up with the polygamy thing only later and that it isn't as crucial to the Targaryen conception than the incest thing.

However, I think narratively the polygamy thing isn't there for Jon Snow - although it certainly is convenient now since it would allow some people to view him as a legitimate Targaryen prince if Rhaegar and Lyanna actually married - but rather for his future plans for Daenerys. Chances are pretty good that she is going to emulate the Conqueror in the sense that she has three dragons and will marry the riders of the other two dragons.

In that context it is also interesting that the original outline didn't have Dany hatching three dragon eggs in the Dothraki Sea but rather only one.

49 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

@Lord Varys

I believe there's an Occam's Razor explanation that Jaehaerys wasn't infuriated about the polygamy matter (which was ridiculous as an assertion under the circumstances anyway) but the fact she was invoking MAEGOR THE CRUEL who Jaehaerys had been personally terrorized by. It would be somewhat akin to Daenerys being told about a precedent by Robert Baratheon or Aegon III by Aegon II.

Certainly the Maegor thing also played a role there. But if she had cited Maegor for something her father would approve of or did/do himself, he wouldn't get angry over that. Like, say, if she had about Jaehaerys' and Maegor's laws against the Faith Militant, etc.

49 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

This is actually something that I was wondering about the fan theory regarding because Rhaegar marrying Lyanna Stark in a Targaryen polygamous marriage is not nearly the, "Well, it will be immediately accepted and Jon Snow is the legal heir to the Seven Kingdoms" that I think fan theorists think it is. Especially since the Conciliator made the exceptionalism doctrine for incest not polygamy.

Yes, that's the other thing. Also Jaehaerys' reasoning about the cause of the Faith Militant Uprising Gyldayn later gives - namely, that Maegor's second marriage was the really big problem, not so much the Aegon-Rhaena match.

I mean, I'd have liked to see another polygamous Targaryen after Maegor, preferrably a dragonrider prince or a dragonrider princess (or a king - Viserys I could have easily married Alicent Hightower while Aemma Arryn was still alive), but since George didn't take that route - and also gave Aegon IV only one wife despite the fact that this monarch must have been more than inclined to take multiple wives if he had felt he could get away with that - the message clearly is that this is truly an outragenous thing to do.

49 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The show actually corrected this even if Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Dorne makes him even scummier as well as disinheriting his legitimate children that I don't even think is a thing in Westeros. Otherwise, Maegor would have done it with his first wife (and without issue was a way in RL to get an anunnlment).

Maegor effectively divorced Ceryse ... but couldn't push it through because he didn't rule the Faith at that time. Alys is his replacement wife, not really a second wife in addition to Ceryse. Because Ceryse is barren and therefore of no use to Maegor. She gets discarded.

An annulment for Rhaegar is out of the question considering the Aegon plot is a thing in the books, and something like that would have severe repercussions for Aegon's cause ... not to mention the relationship with Dorne. There is also no precedent for an annulment when you actually have children from your wife. Renly wants Robert 'to set aside' Cersei for Margaery ... but we don't know if he was legally aiming for an annulment there or rather a kind of divorce.

George could, of course, give other grounds for an annulment, and the inability to have (more) children could be one such. But he would have to introduce such grounds.

In context, though, I think there is no chance Rhaegar would get an annulment from the High Septon - nor the permission to take a second wife. He was not in KL when he took Lyanna, and there is no indication he returned there with her for a wedding or a talk with the High Septon. Further, he wasn't on good terms with his royal father ... and the king ruled the High Septon and the Faith, not the Heir Apparent. But most importantly, according to TWoIaF Aerys II recently very much ingratiated himself with the Faith, humbling himself in front of the Seven and the High Septon with his walk of atonement to the Great Sept in the wake of his mad episode in the wake of the early death of his son Jaehaerys. That should have made the High Septon and the Most Devout very happy with the king who swore to leave all his mistresses and affairs behind and henceforth only share the bed with his wife and sister the queen. Rhaegar never made such a public display of piety and submission to the Faith, so I cannot see him getting permission for something that the Faith would see only the prince thinking with his cock, basically.

49 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I honestly would love some more analysis about what their real feelings were regarding the relationship as they seem to have gotten along quite well (albeit, Visenya may have murdered her nephew so it may not have been as good as it seemed). Certainly, Aegon also seems to have been fairly blaise about the possibility of his second wife sharing her bed with other men as well.

We also don't know Visenya's actual sexual proclivities were. Was she attracted to her brother or was he someone she married for duty as well? Certainly, she seems to have taken no lovers after Aegon.

Visenya shows real devotion to Aegon, saving his life once during the Dornish War and creating the KG to protect him. But I don't think she was romantically in love with. But they seem to have had a decent enough sibling bond in childhood and youth and middle age.

The elder Visenya kind of turned into a mean woman, possibly because she got too invested in her ill-begotten son.

I guess Aegon shares part of the blame there, possibly by sanctifying Rhaenys after her early death while ignoring both Visenya, her feelings for him and their late sister, and by showering Aenys and his children with favors and affection while Maegor was little more than an odd spare you better hid from the public eye (not just because of his sadistic tendencies but also because he had no charisma and no ability to make friends).

In the end both Visenya and Maegor betrayed Aegon's legacy and Rhaenys' descendants with the Alys marriage and the subsequent usurpation. Aenys would have never failed if Maegor hadn't fucked things up ... and the desire to have children of his own by a second wife was selfish and uncalled for. The royal bloodline was secured by Aenys and Alyssa's five healthy children. Maegor needed no children of his own.

[C.T. Phipps]

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In the end both Visenya and Maegor betrayed Aegon's legacy and Rhaenys' descendants with the Alys marriage and the subsequent usurpation. Aenys would have never failed if Maegor hadn't fucked things up ... and the desire to have children of his own by a second wife was selfish and uncalled for. The royal bloodline was secured by Aenys and Alyssa's five healthy children.

The sheer ineptitude of Aenys is something that I think you're understating. The man managed to turn a pacified kingdom into a complete clusterfuck that he was utterly unable to deal with. Maegor may have married a second woman but it is Aeny's inept response to the matter that ruined things as he banished his brother who was his strongest ally.

Even if Maegor hadn't married a second woman, he married his children to one another and refused to let them intimidate others with their dragons. So he was always going to run headfirst into failure.

It's also betraying Maegor that turned the Cruel against his brother and children.

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Maegor needed no children of his own.

If Aerys was indeed a bastard, Visenya may have been trying to secure Aegon's lineage. She might have planned to do it a "soft way" with her magically born child wedding Aenys' offspring and thus heading off any real problems of secession.

But it turns out that magically created children may, in fact, be low sperm count even if they are at least semi-fertile.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The sheer ineptitude of Aenys is something that I think you're understating. The man managed to turn a pacified kingdom into a complete clusterfuck that he was utterly unable to deal with. Maegor may have married a second woman but it is Aeny's inept response to the matter that ruined things as he banished his brother who was his strongest ally.

Aenys reacted very badly to the rebellions in 37 AC, yes, but his Hand, his lords and Maegor took care of those for him. At the end of the year the Realm was pacified again ... and Aenys and Maegor ruled jointly in peace. Until Maegor fucked everything up with his second marriage.

The Faith was pissed about Aenys because he didn't properly discipline his half-brother. They and the Hightowers wanted Aenys to effectively end Maegor's second marriage. A limited exile was a punishment that satisfied no one. Visenya and Maegor were angered, the Harroways were angered, and the Faith and the Hightowers not satisfied.

And this certainly was an insult where Aenys should have shown strength and determination by executing Maegor.

12 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Even if Maegor hadn't married a second woman, he married his children to one another and refused to let them intimidate others with their dragons. So he was always going to run headfirst into failure.

He certainly made mistakes, too, but Visenya and Maegor were his biggest problems. One may have murdered him, and the other murdered two of his sons later. The Faith never caused him that much problems.

12 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's also betraying Maegor that turned the Cruel against his brother and children.

Maegor was Aenys' servant and subject, and he betrayed his king by taking a second wife, not the other way around. Aenys put him above everybody else at his court by giving him Blackfyre and making him Hand ... and he repaid this generosity with treason.

12 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

If Aerys was indeed a bastard, Visenya may have been trying to secure Aegon's lineage. She might have planned to do it a "soft way" with her magically born child wedding Aenys' offspring and thus heading off any real problems of secession.

Not her call. The king rules on his succession, not the queen. But there is no indication she had any such inclinations. She wanted Maegor to succeed Aegon from the start.

[Frey family reunion]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Faith was pissed about Aenys because he didn't properly discipline his half-brother. They and the Hightowers wanted Aenys to effectively end Maegor's second marriage. A limited exile was a punishment that satisfied no one. Visenya and Maegor were angered, the Harroways were angered, and the Faith and the Hightowers not satisfied

Actually the spark that seemed to set off the High Septon and the various religious factions was Aenys decision to marry Aegon and Rhaena much moreso than Maegor's decision to take a second wife.  

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Actually the spark that seemed to set off the High Septon and the various religious factions was Aenys decision to marry Aegon and Rhaena much moreso than Maegor's decision to take a second wife.  

Not according to Gyldayn's depiction of Jaehaerys' own interpretation of the events that led to the uprising:

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With secrecy finally at an end, the king and his court waited to see how the realm would respond. Jaehaerys had concluded that the violent opposition that had greeted his brother Aegon’s marriage had several causes. Their uncle Maegor’s taking of a second wife in 39 AC, in defiance of both the High Septon and his own brother, King Aenys, had shattered the delicate understanding between the Iron Throne and the Starry Sept, so the marriage of Aegon and Rhaena had been seen as a further outrage. The denunciation thus provoked had lit a fire across the land, and the Swords and Stars had taken up the torches, along with a score of pious lords who feared the gods more than their king. Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena had been little known amongst the smallfolk, and they had begun their progress without dragons (in large part because Aegon was not yet a dragonrider), which left them vulnerable to the mobs that sprung up to attack them in the riverlands.

And this does make sense.

The Targaryen tradition was sibling incest, and the Faith and the Realm at large knew this. King Aenys is certainly naive when he thinks he can explain why Aegon must marry Rhaena in a letter after the recent Maegor scandal ... but this attitude indicates that the Conqueror never brought up his son telling him that his grandchildren couldn't or shouldn't marry each other. In fact, it is made pretty clear that Rhaena and Aegon were prepared by their parents and grandfather to marry each other one day. They were just not formally betrothed as small children.

And Jaehaerys and Alysanne grew up with the same expectation. That wouldn't have happened if Aegon had thought he couldn't convince the Faith to accept Targaryen incest. Aenys and Jaehaerys and Alysanne were not motivated to arrange incestuous marriages because they read about those in old books.

Maegor taking a second wife and discarding Ceryse Hightower who happened to be the High Septon's own niece was a direct insult to the Voice of the Seven on Earth - Aegon-Rhaena could never have been as insulting on a personal level.

In that sense it seems clear the first big issue was Maegor's second marriage, King Aenys' ineffective punishment of his brother, and then subsequently certainly the betrothal and wedding of Aegon-Rhaena which showed that this king wasn't willing to make amends to the Faith. It provided the Faith with a pretext to increase hostilities and to incite the people against the Targaryens.

If Aenys had effectively ended the Harroway match and forced Maegor to return to Ceryse, and making other amends to the Faith (we have to keep in mind that the earlier decision to expel all the septons and septas from the Iron Islands would also have angered the Faith) to then privately approach the High Septon and asking him for permission to marry his children to each other things may have worked out like they did for the later Targaryens.

In the end the deciding factor there is whether the leader of the Faith condones something ... or not. The Faith Militant effectively followed the lead of the High Septon, just as the pious lords did.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Not according to Gyldayn's depiction of Jaehaerys' own interpretation of the events that led to the uprising:

Maegor’s second marriage was the first sign of trouble between the Faith and the Targaryens (even though undoubtably there were always tensions under the surface).  But the uprisings in the streets seemed to take place after Aegon and Rhaena’s wedding.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Maegor’s second marriage was the first sign of trouble between the Faith and the Targaryens (even though undoubtably there were always tensions under the surface).  But the uprisings in the streets seemed to take place after Aegon and Rhaena’s wedding.

Yes, but it seems as if the Aegon-Rhaena match simply served as a pretext or focal point for the High Septon and his buddies to move their anti-Targaryen campaign to the next level. It wasn't was caused the uprising, it helped them organize it, so it could escalate further.

The High Septon wanted to hurt/do away with the Targaryens because of the Maegor thing.

[C.T. Phipps]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, but it seems as if the Aegon-Rhaena match simply served as a pretext or focal point for the High Septon and his buddies to move their anti-Targaryen campaign to the next level. It wasn't was caused the uprising, it helped them organize it, so it could escalate further.

The High Septon wanted to hurt/do away with the Targaryens because of the Maegor thing.

I think it escalated things further from bad to open revolt and turned the public against them. Personally, I think this makes sense as incest (at this time period) seems to have been viewed far worse and more like in our world versus polygamy. The personalness of the insult having seriously upset the Septon earlier.

But I should note that the book also makes it clear that simmering anger over the conquest in the first place and failures against Dorn were there among the nobility.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think it escalated things further from bad to open revolt and turned the public against them. Personally, I think this makes sense as incest (at this time period) seems to have been viewed far worse and more like in our world versus polygamy. The personalness of the insult having seriously upset the Septon earlier.

Incest was viewed as sin and abomination, yes, but it is one thing to view it that way (as the smallfolk more or less continue to do even after the Doctrine of Exceptionalism is invented) and quite another to rise in bloody rebellion against the king because he practices incest.

That people did rise in rebellion boils down the High Septon public and outspoken condemnation of the Targaryens. And that attitude goes back to Maegor's second marriage, not to the Aegon-Rhaena match. Nobody felt personally insulted or betrayed by that.

In context we should also keep in mind that polygamy certainly was the queerer and uglier custom. Not only was it never revived against after Maegor (despite the fact that it could have helped Aemon and Viserys I and Daemon with their problems of fathering sons) but we also see Prince Maegor not finding a septon - not even on Dragonstone - to marry him to Alys Harroway, thus being forced to turn Visenya for a Valyrian rite. And even as king Maegor has to kill several septons before he finds one willing to marry Tyanna to him as his third wife (once he has broken the Faith and installed his own lickspittle High Septon he can summon him to marry the black brides to him, of course, but that's at a point when he has clearly won the struggle).

This is especially intriguing in light of the fact that the septon on Dragonstone in 39 AC should have been the very same Septon Oswyck who had no problem at all to marry Jaehaerys to Alysanne ... yet he apparently refused to marry Maegor to Alys. This tells us something about how incest was viewed compared to polygamy among the clergy who were friends and supporters of House Targaryen. Septon Murmison also had no problem officiating at Aegon-Rhaena's wedding in KL.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/27/2022 at 10:16 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

The Targaryens also turned out to practice a lot of cousin incest over sibling incest as well. They also notably interbred with the Velaryons a lot as well.

Which, well, undercuts that argument a bit.

So while I don't dispute it, I do note that Aegon being the father is not nearly as unlikely as some other theories.

Cousin incest isn't incest in Planetos.

Nor is it considered incest to vast majority of people in the real world.

You might have an argument with first cousins but not at all with second, third and fourth cousins.

On 7/27/2022 at 11:01 PM, Lord Varys said:

Both sons of the Conqueror are actually dialed-up, male versions of their respective mothers. So it could really make sense if their alleged father really had nothing to do with their conception.

Dialed-down in the case of Aenys and Rhaenys.

Queen Rhaenys would've handled the situations that King Aenys was dealing with a lot better.

 

This Maegor resurrection theory is interesting though. Not buying into it yet...but it's an interesting thought.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Dialed-down in the case of Aenys and Rhaenys.

I meant that the boys are both more extreme versions of their mothers. Rhaenys liked praise, was changable, liked singers and artists and the like. Aenys is a male version of his mother, with the problematic traits are amplified.

Ditto with Maegor. Visenya had no charisma, was harsh, distant, cold, suspicious ... and a fine warrior. Just like Maegor is, although his traits are much more problematic than Visenya's.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Queen Rhaenys would've handled the situations that King Aenys was dealing with a lot better.

Sure enough ... but Rhaenys' mother wasn't shot down in Dorne. Rhaenys was, and that had a pretty big impact on Aenys and his willingness to ride Quicksilver in war. If Aegon or Visenya had died like Rhaenys, a surviving Rhaenys may have reacted in a similar manner as her son.

One could also see her not having the stomach to deal harshly with rebels and the like. Aenys' tendency to want to be loved and praised by his subjects is something he had in common with his mother. Rhaenys had Aegon and Visenya to deal with the uglier aspects of rulership. She didn't have to make the hard decisions herself - but Aenys did. And he refused to make them most of the time.

[C.T. Phipps]

4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Cousin incest isn't incest in Planetos.

Nor is it considered incest to vast majority of people in the real world.

You might have an argument with first cousins but not at all with second, third and fourth cousins.

Which is my point. The Targaryens didn't do nearly as much brother-sister pairing as they're reputed as doing.