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Why did Aegon the Conqueror didn't have more children?

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Hmm looking back at this thread alot of people really seem to feel Big Egg was sterile. I do wonder why

Edited by Destiny Arrives

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42 minutes ago, Destiny Arrives said:

Hmm looking back at this thread alot of people really seem to feel Big Egg was sterile. I do wonder why

It makes sense. Especially since we know that Maegor was sterile too.

If it were my story though, I would've had Aegon the Conqueror have a few more children. Two daughters with one of them being the firstborn and the one who was a small child when her father unified Westeros and a son that either came in between Aenys and Maegor or after Maegor.

Would've liked to see the entire family (a bigger family) come to despise and turn on Maegor rather than see your run-of-the-mill, pre-Dance civil war.

Edited by BlackLightning

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38 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

It makes sense. Especially since we know that Maegor was sterile too.

If it were my story though, I would've had Aegon the Conqueror have a few more children. Two daughters with one of them being the firstborn and the one who was a small child when her father unified Westeros and a son that either came in between Aenys and Maegor or after Maegor.

Would've liked to see the entire family (a bigger family) come to despise and turn on Maegor rather than see your run-of-the-mill, pre-Dance civil war.

Yes, there could have been a daughter born prior to the Conquest, for instance, so old that they would not even consider to marry her to Aenys or Maegor because she was already married to Daemon Velaryon or Orys Baratheon's heir by the time Aenys was old enough to even consider to marry.

Not to mention that Aegon could have simply decided to marry a daughter not to one of his sons but rather to another house for this or that political reason ... and to not provoke the enmity of the Faith. Then Maegor could have later made that (half-)sister a widow so that he could properly practice both polygamy and incest - as things stand, he just married a niece, which isn't incest according to Westerosi customs.

But, yeah, the idea is that Aegon I was sterile and neither Aenys nor Maegar are actually his seed.

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Honestly, if F & B is any indication, GRRM is terrified of family trees. Just look at the fact that despite nine of Jaehaerys I's thirteen children surviving childhood he has only seven known grandchildren, three of which are bastards.

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On 11/19/2020 at 3:02 AM, BlackLightning said:

It makes sense. Especially since we know that Maegor was sterile too.

Eh? He had three stillborn children, all three of whom featured the signs of "monstrosity" that we see with some other Targaryen stillbirths. While it was claimed Alys's was from a lover rather than from Maegor, that was from Tyanna and then the work of torturers, and in any case she later claimed to have poisoned the child in the womb, which seems to be what she did to any of the queens who Maegor knocked up.

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@Ran

On the other hand, neither Ceryse (who had sex with Maegor for over a decade) nor the whores he apparently also bedded ever conceived. Furthermore, Tyanna was, according to rumor, a dabbler in alchemy and sorcery who may or may not have resurrected Maegor revenant-style from his coma. Finally, there is the fact Maegor's mother, who was herself rumored to dabble in sorcery, had him, her only child, late in her childbearing years and confidently predicted his gender as well. 

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Ran

On the other hand, neither Ceryse (who had sex with Maegor for over a decade) nor the whores he apparently also bedded ever conceived.

Ceryse could have been infertile. We don't know how many prostitutes he bedded, we don't know what measures they took, etc. If one or more gave birth to a stillborn child, or died while carrying a child, would we even have been told? The claim that he had no bastards would still have been true.

The Tyanna and Visenya matter are neither here nor there. Tyanna did not claim credit for creating the children, and Visenya was dead when Jeyne and Elinor conceived.

Again, Maegor had three wives concieve three monstrous stillborn children. Even if we accept the dubious claim that Alys's was somehow concieved by someone else, there's no question in the text that Jeyne and Elinor were carrying anything but Maegor's children.

Now, if you want to say that while Maegor was not sterile, there was some genetic issue that was causing his progeny to die in the womb, I'd be willing to go with that. This would rather suggest that Tyanna didn't actually play a role in the deaths of the women or the deformities of the children, but rather claimed it out of spite knowing that she was going to die regardless what she said.

Edited by Ran

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13 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Honestly, if F & B is any indication, GRRM is terrified of family trees. Just look at the fact that despite nine of Jaehaerys I's thirteen children surviving childhood he has only seven known grandchildren, three of which are bastards.

I thought GRRM was into that type of detail, just look at the appendixes for each ASOIAF book.

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He certainly has created thousands of characters. But there's a limit to how much he can reasonably keep track of and write about, and it was pretty clear he avoided having too many recent cadet branches forming for any particular house so that he didn't have to deal with figuring out what became of them.

Personally, I find it perfectly reasonable, but critics will critique.

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Maegor wasn't sterile, but he clearly had massive fertility problems. He failed to produce children with Ceryse and Tyanna and Rhaena and Alys (for the first five years of their marriage) ... and whatever children he produced were apparently not viable to say the least.

And while Tyanna could have indeed poisoned the children of Alys and Jeyne, the chances that she could poisoned Elinor's child are not that good.

But this is not something we can figure out since it is all hearsay. Just we won't ever know whether Alys got pregnant by Maegor or by her many lovers ... or whether they were invented by Tyanna, too, or not.

What the narrative implies is that Tyanna may have a motive to destroy Alys Harroway since Maegor made his other queens (Ceryse and Tyanna) serve Alyn after he learned she was pregnant. Could be that we are to believe Tyanna was motivated by basic female jealousy. But then - would she both kill the child in the womb as well as destroy Alys with the story about those lovers? Could be ... or not.

And her confession after Jeyne's stillbirth could also have been a false confession, goading Maegor into killing her quickly. She would have known that the king would blame her for this the moment he confronted her.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Ceryse could have been infertile. We don't know how many prostitutes he bedded, we don't know what measures they took, etc. If one or more gave birth to a stillborn child, or died while carrying a child, would we even have been told? The claim that he had no bastards would still have been true.

FaB revealed that in addition to the two living black brides Maegor also had this harem of mistresses/whores ... which could have numbered dozens or scores of women. Knowing that King Maegor was obsessed with having an heir of his body for his entire life, but especially in his later reign, we can reasonably expect that any child of his - but especially a son - would have immediately replaced Aerea as Maegor's presumptive heir.

In that sense, I'd say that the pregnancies of the queens could have something to do with magical cures and potions even if the text doesn't indicate any of that sort. Maegor may have tried everything in his power to impregnate the black brides.

Overall there is something missing in the story of Maegor's fertility issues, just as there is something missing in the fact that we have no clue why Aemon and Jocelyn only had one child despite the fact that they apparently loved each other very much. If King Viserys I has issues being stuck only with a daughter, then Prince Aemon would have been, too. And King Jaehaerys I as well, if he did not want his granddaughter to succeed his eldest son and heir one day.

For Maegor a narrative where he took extreme measures both in 44 and 47-48 AC to produce an heir of his body could have been very interesting. More interesting, in fact, than this idea that Tyanna poisoned the children.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

He certainly has created thousands of characters. But there's a limit to how much he can reasonably keep track of and write about, and it was pretty clear he avoided having too many recent cadet branches forming for any particular house so that he didn't have to deal with figuring out what became of them.

Personally, I find it perfectly reasonable, but critics will critique.

That isn't really a good response here. I mean, imagine Viserys I having uncles and aunts and first cousins hanging around all the way to the Dance? How would one have to invent more characters if said people could have been on the Small Council or be married to the same powerful lords and ladies we met in 'The Dying of the Dragons', anyway? And if he didn't want to complicate things by having them marry outside the family, then go with the standard sibling or cousin incest thing. 'Problem' solved.

I mean, part of the fun of succession wars is that many royals do run around, and while the Dance had two main pretenders it would have been great if there had been more Targaryens around whose dragons could have played a considerable role in the fighting.

And if the family tree was supposed to be cut down after the Dance then why not make the Strongs, Otto Hightower's descendants, or even the Baratheons or Lannisters or Arryns Targaryens through the female line? The Dance could have taken out the entire ruling branches, causing the lordships to pass or revert to relations who don't have Targaryen blood.

If you look at the family tree at aroun 103 AC then the most fertile Targaryen couple - which is made this fertile to illustrate and symbolize the prosperity of that era - is down to a king with just one female child, a brother stuck in a childless marriage due to a possibly barren wife, and the Velaryon cousins.

Basically the great Viserys I had just as many heirs as Aerys II.

Nobody ever wanted the Targaryens to multiply the way real-world royal dynasties do. But there should have been more around until the Dance ... and even afterwards some obscure cadet branches could have survived.

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On 10/30/2019 at 12:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, my theory on that - which I think has gained some popularity over the years - is that Aegon I was sterile and his two sons are not, in fact, his children at all. Aenys would be the child of some singer (there is that funny reference in FaB telling us he was a fine singer himself), and Maegor, considering that Visenya is a reputed sorceress, the result of spell (possibly a male clone of Visenya herself, considering the fact that George used that very plot device in his 'Nightflyers' novella).

SNIP

It was also rather unpleasant that Aenys didn't have any children but Jaehaerys and Alysanne survive Maegor as well as the fact that Maegor left no children at all. There could have been sons, daughters, and some acknowledged bastards. After all, Maegor was a usurper who was eventually toppled. Any children of his may have simply not been allowed to succeed to the throne. And a son of his could have become a maester, septon, black brother, or even a Kingsguard.

As much as it bruises the part that houses my bullshit male patriarchal ego, I don't think this theory far-fetched at all anymore. After all they'd be no less Targaryen than any other Targ born not of the sister-brother unions and without the ickiness; there's always the potential for another Aegon in there.

 

I think it more likely the sorcery bore fruit in Maegor from Aegon but not a ton more likely. I'm confused though, as Rhaena Targaryen did survive, she just never bore children which I guess is what you're referring to?

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15 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

As much as it bruises the part that houses my bullshit male patriarchal ego, I don't think this theory far-fetched at all anymore. After all they'd be no less Targaryen than any other Targ born not of the sister-brother unions and without the ickiness; there's always the potential for another Aegon in there.

Yeah, the idea that King Aenys and all his descendants have no Targaryen blood at all would be more problematic in light of the entire dragonrider and prophesied savior stuff. But there is no reason why Rhaenys' son by some singer couldn't pass on those traits to his children. After all, quite a few later Targaryens have spouses who have no Targaryen blood at all.

15 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

I think it more likely the sorcery bore fruit in Maegor from Aegon but not a ton more likely. I'm confused though, as Rhaena Targaryen did survive, she just never bore children which I guess is what you're referring to?

Oh, yeah, originally my idea was that Visenya used a spell to conceive a child with Aegon ... but then I read 'Nightflyers' and now I lean to the idea that George implicitly references that story with Visenya and Maegor.

I meant that none of the siblings but Rhaena survived ... and her line ended with Aerea, basically.

It would have been good if Jaehaerys had had a younger brother founding his own cadet branch of the family ... which could later have provided spouses for the children or grandchildren of the king. Weirdly enough, Lord Boremund, Jaehaerys' actual half-brother, seemed to have played neither a dynastic nor a role in the government of the Realm. That is rather odd, too.

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A bit odd, but more due to the fact in how important Boremund was to the defense of the realm IMO, and later by his marked support of Rhaenys.

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@Ran

I agree its more likely that Maegor had fertility issues. My problem with the Targ family tree is the obvious compression. If there was ever a place where the family tree could and should have exploded it was under Jaehaerys I what with the Dance right around the corner. For example, would giving Daella another child or having Viserra die after her marriage produced an heir or letting Prince Aegon live have been too difficult? I personally doubt so.

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11 hours ago, Leonardo said:

A bit odd, but more due to the fact in how important Boremund was to the defense of the realm IMO, and later by his marked support of Rhaenys.

From what we know he wasn't part of the court despite that his uncle Garon ruled Storm's End during his youth. With Jocelyn marrying Aemon and them both being half-siblings of the king and queen one would expect more royal favors thrown at him - a royal marriage, a seat on the Small Council, and other honors. Boremund's son(s) - when they were finally born - should also have had places of honor at court. Not like Borros Baratheon who effectively gives the impression of a backwater lord in 129 AC, being confused about his own kinship to the royal family ;-).

In fact, if Boremund couldn't get a Targaryen bride due to the age gap thing - Alyssa being for Baelon, Maegelle for the Faith and being nearly ten years younger than Boremund - then Borros should have had a shot at Rhaenys, Aemma, Laena, and, especially, Rhaenyra, depending when exactly he was born. But the Baratheons are not even mentioned as potential spouses for any Targaryen between Aemon and Aemond.

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Ran

I agree its more likely that Maegor had fertility issues. My problem with the Targ family tree is the obvious compression. If there was ever a place where the family tree could and should have exploded it was under Jaehaerys I what with the Dance right around the corner. For example, would giving Daella another child or having Viserra die after her marriage produced an heir or letting Prince Aegon live have been too difficult? I personally doubt so.

Another interesting opportunity would have been to have one or multiple of Saera's bastards come to court after Viserys I took the throne - perhaps because the guy had taken a liking to some of his cousins when they showed up for the Great Council. Thus they could have been some kind of Targaryen Beauforts, being entrusted with important offices but without being in the official line of succession.

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On 11/18/2020 at 9:02 PM, BlackLightning said:

It makes sense. Especially since we know that Maegor was sterile too.

If it were my story though, I would've had Aegon the Conqueror have a few more children. Two daughters with one of them being the firstborn and the one who was a small child when her father unified Westeros and a son that either came in between Aenys and Maegor or after Maegor.

Would've liked to see the entire family (a bigger family) come to despise and turn on Maegor rather than see your run-of-the-mill, pre-Dance civil war.

I for one don't think he was and that Aenys and Maegor were his, but i guess i can see why people would speculate has you said. 

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Maegor was not sterile. He had 3 stillborn children, all of them poisoned by Tyanna.  I've never undestood why having 2 children makes you sterile. I mean, you can find examples for this IRL too, a lot of them. Also, fertility isn't an extremist thing: you are not either steril or a fckn rabbit. Does this mean Aemon (son of Jaehaerys) was steril? He lived more than 30 years and had only 1 child. Corlys only provided 2 children with him. Was he sterile? No. And the line goes on. Having only 2 children is not an argument for Aegon being sterile. How many times the king of your nation had only 1 or 2 heir? This is not an argument. Neither is that Maegor was sterile. If Aegon spent 10 nights with Rhaenys while only 1 with Visenya, how didn't he figure out that Rhaenys doesn't even loves him, if that's the case? 

This just does not make sense.

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