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Why did Aegon the Conqueror didn't have more children?


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@HerblYY

Its suspicious because:

1) Aegon had only two children despite being married to two women at the same time

2) There are no reported miscarriages, stillbirths, or other such medical issues

3) Aegon had sex with at least Rhaenys quite often

4) Rhaenys and Visenya both had children late in life (their 30s and 40ths respectively) despite having been married to Aegon since before the conquest, which took place in their late 20s

5) Visenya announced her pregnancy when it looked like Aenys might die, thus robbing Aegon of his only heir, and accurately predicted the gender of said child despite not having access to modern medicine

6) Visenya was rumored to dabble in sorcery and Rhaenys to have lovers

7) Aenys and Maegor both resemble their mothers more than Aegon

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1 hour ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@HerblYY

Its suspicious because:

1) Aegon had only two children despite being married to two women at the same time

2) There are no reported miscarriages, stillbirths, or other such medical issues

3) Aegon had sex with at least Rhaenys quite often

4) Rhaenys and Visenya both had children late in life (their 30s and 40ths respectively) despite having been married to Aegon since before the conquest, which took place in their late 20s

5) Visenya announced her pregnancy when it looked like Aenys might die, thus robbing Aegon of his only heir, and accurately predicted the gender of said child despite not having access to modern medicine

6) Visenya was rumored to dabble in sorcery and Rhaenys to have lovers

7) Aenys and Maegor both resemble their mothers more than Aegon

1) Again, the world is not either black or white. Sometimes it's grey. Someone's not either sterile or fertile. He may be not that fertile, or almost infertile(I have examples of this from IRL, yet they after 10 years managed to have 1 child, the man was 36 at the time, the woman 33). The problem of course was Aegon in this case. He probably had fertility issues, that does not make him instantly sterile. He just has a low chance of impregnating someone.

2) I doubt there ever was. In medieval ages, chance of carrying out a child was around 75-80%. That's not that bad. Infant mortality is another thing.

3)Yes, he had. Unlike other valyrians, Aegon had 2 wives. The thing is, I doubt Rhaenys married Aegon not loving him. He didn't had to marry him if he doesn't wanted to.

4)There's the example i gave you earlier, I know those people.

5) I'm not saying everything was clear about impregnating Visenya. But people( and this happened on the IRL case I mentioned earlier) might have more fertile periods in later ages too. 

6) Visenya practiced sorcery no doubts, but Rhaenys having lovers only came out when Aenys was boen weak and ill and people tought he couldn't be Aegon's. Never bwfore or after.

7) Now this is an interesting thing. Why should they resemble their father? Jaehaerys did resemble his own? No. Neither did Aegon the Uncrowned. Neither did Vaegon. Neither did Daemon and Viserys. Neither did Aemond. Neither did Aegon III. Neither did Baelor resemled his father. Neither did Aegon IV. Neither did Aegon V, nor Jaehaerys, nor Aerys II, nor Rhaegar. And the list goes on. People are different.

The thing is, I think George choose this way. He did not want more dragonriders, more brothers or more daughters, or anything like that. Neither he wanted Aegon's heirs to be old when they inherit the throne. But this is my opinion, and I gotta admit that this theory has its chances to be true. The only thing I can not accept is that "Maegor was infertile because his father was too", since Maegor wasn't infertile, and fertility isn't really affected by what you inherit from your ancestors. 

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2 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@HerblYY

I know. Some people have only one kid and others a dozen. Why is anyone's guess. I'm just laying out why some people think the Targaryens are basically Romanovs.

These people I am talking about actually went to doctors to ask about it. They said that the chance of children is pretty low, but not impossible. Several years after they managed to have a kid. Aegon's case might be the same, or might not. Stannis too only has 1 daughter, and he's married for almost 20 years now.

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Stannis is uncomfortable around women in general. Plus, neither him nor Selyse like each other on a personal level. In fact, if it weren't for Melisandre I would think he's asexual.

Anyway, we'll never know if Aegon I was incapable of fathering children but I personally think the truth could go either way.

Edited by The Grey Wolf
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The problem is that Aegon the Conqueror was married to Rhaenys for a decade or more before Aenys was born. He is born in 7 AC and you have to add the two years of the Wars of the Conquest ... and it is not stated that the siblings married immediately/shortly before the Conquest. They were already in their early/mid-twenties in 2 BC, and that is a rather late age for marriage, especially when we talk about the incestuous marriage practices of House Targaryen. There you marry in your early, mid- or late teens.

Thus chances are that Aegon-Rhaenys were already married for not little more than a decade by 7 AC but perhaps even a time being closer to twenty years. And there are no other pregnancies miscarriages, stillbirths, or children dying in the cradle recorded for them. In light of the fact that women are most fertile in her late teens/early twenties this is all quite remarkable, especially since we are sent the message that Aegon and Rhaenys had sex often and quite regularly throughout their marriage.

And then there are the rumors repeated even 300 years later that Queen Rhaenys entertained multiple lovers, increasing the likelihood that she just reached a point where she couldn't take Aegon failing her in the pregnancy department and helped herself with multiple sperm donors.

With Visenya it is even more suspicious. She would have been married to Aegon as long as Rhaenys - or possibly even longer as her in light of that the she was the elder sister and we don't know for sure that there was only one marriage ceremony for both sister-wives - yet with her there is specifically recorded no pregnancy prior to Maegor (when Visenya was around forty) since it is stated that Visenya was 'childless and perhaps barren' when Rhaenys died, and the king was pushed to take another wife. A barren woman usually doesn't get pregnant. They wouldn't have said Visenya was 'perhaps barren' if she had had multiple (failed) pregnancies in the past.

Another crucial point indicating that people even back during the Conquest thought Aegon might not be capable of fathering children is the fact that Queen Sharra Arryn offered Aegon to marry him if she named her son his heir in return. In light of the fact that Aegon had two wives already it seems very presumptuous that he would not produce a large family, doubling the number of children the average husband would have in a monogamous marriage.

Queen Sharra would not have lived in a vacuum. She would have known how long Aegon was married to his sisters and that neither sister had given him a child so far. Meaning her offer may have been both ambitious on her part as well as helpful to Aegon who could gotten a proper heir in Ronnel Arryn.

1 hour ago, HerblYY said:

1) Again, the world is not either black or white. Sometimes it's grey. Someone's not either sterile or fertile. He may be not that fertile, or almost infertile(I have examples of this from IRL, yet they after 10 years managed to have 1 child, the man was 36 at the time, the woman 33). The problem of course was Aegon in this case. He probably had fertility issues, that does not make him instantly sterile. He just has a low chance of impregnating someone.

It is not that relevant whether Aegon was 100% sterile ... but rather that he is not the father of Aenys or Maegor because he couldn't impregnate either of his wives. Saying he was sterile just helps to underline or stress that idea. But I think you can say chances are very high he could not father children on any woman.

1 hour ago, HerblYY said:

6) Visenya practiced sorcery no doubts, but Rhaenys having lovers only came out when Aenys was boen weak and ill and people tought he couldn't be Aegon's. Never bwfore or after.

The reason those rumors died down was Aenys bonding with the dragon Quicksilver. Dragons are viewed as markers of legitimate birth with the Targaryens, despite the fact that they would not give a damn whether the riders they bond with are born true or false nor whether they have the blood of the dragon on both sides.

It is similar with Rhaenyra's sons - when their dragon eggs hatch and they mount their dragons the rumors surrounding their parentage also lose credence to a point.

And you are right that Aemon-Jocelyn having only one child is also quite odd. It is a mistake on George's part, I think, to not more elaborate on that. Laena/Laenor not so much, I'd say, because Corlys and Rhaenys could have decided that they did not want more children.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The problem is that Aegon the Conqueror was married to Rhaenys for a decade or more before Aenys was born. He is born in 7 AC and you have to add the two years of the Wars of the Conquest ... and it is not stated that the siblings married immediately/shortly before the Conquest. They were already in their early/mid-twenties in 2 BC, and that is a rather late age for marriage, especially when we talk about the incestuous marriage practices of House Targaryen. There you marry in your early, mid- or late teens.

Thus chances are that Aegon-Rhaenys were already married for not little more than a decade by 7 AC but perhaps even a time being closer to twenty years. And there are no other pregnancies miscarriages, stillbirths, or children dying in the cradle recorded for them. In light of the fact that women are most fertile in her late teens/early twenties this is all quite remarkable, especially since we are sent the message that Aegon and Rhaenys had sex often and quite regularly throughout their marriage.

And then there are the rumors repeated even 300 years later that Queen Rhaenys entertained multiple lovers, increasing the likelihood that she just reached a point where she couldn't take Aegon failing her in the pregnancy department and helped herself with multiple sperm donors.

With Visenya it is even more suspicious. She would have been married to Aegon as long as Rhaenys - or possibly even longer as her in light of that the she was the elder sister and we don't know for sure that there was only one marriage ceremony for both sister-wives - yet with her there is specifically recorded no pregnancy prior to Maegor (when Visenya was around forty) since it is stated that Visenya was 'childless and perhaps barren' when Rhaenys died, and the king was pushed to take another wife. A barren woman usually doesn't get pregnant. They wouldn't have said Visenya was 'perhaps barren' if she had had multiple (failed) pregnancies in the past.

Another crucial point indicating that people even back during the Conquest thought Aegon might not be capable of fathering children is the fact that Queen Sharra Arryn offered Aegon to marry him if she named her son his heir in return. In light of the fact that Aegon had two wives already it seems very presumptuous that he would not produce a large family, doubling the number of children the average husband would have in a monogamous marriage.

Queen Sharra would not have lived in a vacuum. She would have known how long Aegon was married to his sisters and that neither sister had given him a child so far. Meaning her offer may have been both ambitious on her part as well as helpful to Aegon who could gotten a proper heir in Ronnel Arryn.

You have some points, but that rumor was just wrote down in a book 300 years later. The foundation of these rumours was that Aenys was nothing like his father. In an earlier reply I just wrote down a couple of Targaryens (most of 'em kings) who were nothing like their fathers. This rumour has no basis, after all.

Sharra Arryn might have been joking when he tought that a dragonlord would let his line die out, or anything, leaving everything on someone who has nothing to do with it. Either way, it wasn't the smartest offer I've heard (I just don't know how to feel about the situation, feels kinda weird and dumb). As I remember, Sharra put all his hope in her past beauty.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not that relevant whether Aegon was 100% sterile ... but rather that he is not the father of Aenys or Maegor because he couldn't impregnate either of his wives. Saying he was sterile just helps to underline or stress that idea. But I think you can say chances are very high he could not father children on any woman.

The reason those rumors died down was Aenys bonding with the dragon Quicksilver. Dragons are viewed as markers of legitimate birth with the Targaryens, despite the fact that they would not give a damn whether the riders they bond with are born true or false nor whether they have the blood of the dragon on both sides.

It is similar with Rhaenyra's sons - when their dragon eggs hatch and they mount their dragons the rumors surrounding their parentage also lose credence to a point.

And you are right that Aemon-Jocelyn having only one child is also quite odd. It is a mistake on George's part, I think, to not more elaborate on that. Laena/Laenor not so much, I'd say, because Corlys and Rhaenys could have decided that they did not want more children.

Well, at least this is clear for both of us. 

After all, your personality does not originate from your blood. It depends on your education, childhood events, etc...but this all only adds up to the original "seed" of your personality, that always is you. I don't know if you find understandable what I just said.

What I am saying is that we couldn't know for sure. Having 1 child with a wife during the middleages is a rare and odd case, obviously, but does not stand without any examples.

To me, the biggest problem is with Rhaenys, whom I couldn't believe to cheat on her husband. But whoknows, maybe she did for a greater good, or something.

But the chances are even, to be honest, yet I would put my bet on the kids being Aegon's now. But your "solution" too is reasonable.

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2 hours ago, HerblYY said:

You have some points, but that rumor was just wrote down in a book 300 years later. The foundation of these rumours was that Aenys was nothing like his father. In an earlier reply I just wrote down a couple of Targaryens (most of 'em kings) who were nothing like their fathers. This rumour has no basis, after all.

Oh, to be clear there is a fact there, and two different rumors. The fact is that Queen Rhaenys was a great patron of singers and mummers and the like, and surrounded herself with a coterie of male favorites. This is not a rumor, it is a fact.

The first rumor says that whenever King Aegon did his marital duties with Queen Visenya - which allegedly didn't happen all that often compared to Rhaenys (only one in ten 'sex nights' for Aegon were spent with Visenya - the other nine with Rhaenys) - Queen Rhaenys (one imagines because of jealousy) entertained herself by having sex with some of her favorites.

The second rumor, coming up after Aenys' birth and when it became clear he did not resemble his alleged all that much, is that Aenys was produced by the Conqueror's seed but by one of Rhaenys' many alleged lovers from the circle of her favorites.

The idea that she had affairs is not based on the looks/qualities of her son, but on the fact that she was surrounded by handsome favorites.

In that sense - this whole thing is actually pretty telling, especially if you think about what Cersei could pull right under Robert's nose. And Aegon was a much more active king, having two royal residence he switched back and forth between, and then making a progress essentially every year. Not to mention the First Dornish War which took place during most of the years Rhaenys was still around.

The line which - in my opinion - is supposed to give the truth away without actually doing it - is when Gyldayn - after mentioning the singers among Rhaenys' favorites - goes on mentioning that Aenys was a fine singer himself, with a soft, sweet voice. That is the way you do it when you write a history which officially cannot state Aenys Targaryen wasn't the Conqueror's son because he ascended the throne as his son and all the Targaryens are descended from him.

But the idea for both Aenys and Maegor not being Aegon's biological sons is not the king being cuckolded in secret in Rhaenys' case, but them realizing that they had to take measures to ensure the survival of the dynasty. Aegon would have given Rhaenys permission to explore other ways to get pregnant, just as Visenya would have looked for help in sorcery to produce Maegor.

You have to keep in mind that the late birth of Aenys means they were without a clear heir for seven years after the Conquest ... after a war that left scars and at an age when conceiving children would get ever more difficult, not to mention staying alive. After the Conquest they could realistically expect, say, ten years of good health, and another ten of decent health. That Aegon and Visenya lived into the sixties and seventies in good health was luck if you compare them to their descendants.

And in general - most Targaryens actually do look like their parents of close relatives. And to be clear - Aenys may very much have looked like Aegon physically - just as his sons (Jaehaerys included) could have had their father's nose, face, hands, etc. - but he wasn't all that impressive insofar as physical build, force of will, and prowess at arms were concerned.

The tricky thing with Aenys' character is that we don't know anything about his grandfather Aerion's character or the other Targaryens on Dragonstone ... but if you look further down the family tree then 'the Aenys-trait' sort of comes back in Viserys I, Daeron the Daring, Baelor the Blessed, Daeron II, Daeron the Drunk, Jaehaerys II, etc. Just as Vaegon's apparent autism comes back in Jaehaera, Aegon III, and especially Aerys I.

There is a limited variety in the Targaryen bloodline - mostly they turn out to be physically and mentally impressive, but they never bred out the bad traits.

2 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Sharra Arryn might have been joking when he tought that a dragonlord would let his line die out, or anything, leaving everything on someone who has nothing to do with it. Either way, it wasn't the smartest offer I've heard (I just don't know how to feel about the situation, feels kinda weird and dumb). As I remember, Sharra put all his hope in her past beauty.

She may have been stupid to consider seducing Aegon ... but such a marriage alliance proposal wasn't dumb.

2 hours ago, HerblYY said:

Well, at least this is clear for both of us. 

After all, your personality does not originate from your blood. It depends on your education, childhood events, etc...but this all only adds up to the original "seed" of your personality, that always is you. I don't know if you find understandable what I just said.

Oh, well, Westerosi are dumb. With the inbred Targaryens it is not a surprise that certain traits jump a generation. Just how prowess at arms jumps around - you have Maegor, Jaehaerys, Daemon, Aemond, the Dragonknight, Daemon Blackfyre, Baelor Breakspear, and so on.

Similarly, being unusually smart/competent also jumps around - that's with, say, Aemon and Baelon, Viserys II, Daeron II, Aegon V, Maester Aemon, Rhaegar, and so on. Even things like gluttony pop up again and again, with Viserys I, Aegon II, Aegon IV, and so on.

Looking for a specific trait in a direct descendant is stupid. I think that's very much illustrated in FaB when people remark on how Jaehaerys I resembles his uncle Maegor when he is angry. They are uncle and nephew, part of the same family, and not as far apart as one would like or expect.

With Aenys and Maegor the interesting thing is that both are dialed-up, male versions of their mothers. Rhaenys was changeable, fickle, and no true warrior ... and her son takes those traits to the next level. Just as Visenya was a stern, unforgiving warrior with a dark side, and Maegor is mirrors her there in the extreme.

Neither of 'the Conqueror's sons' have much in common with their 'father'.

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The fly in the ointment in the theory is simply that Rhaenys had just the one child. Why not two or three or four with these lovers, if Aegon was fine with it? Better for the realm, after all. And no rumors of miscarriages or stillbirths or aborted pregnancies with her, either.

All three were clearly low in fertility, likely the product of a bit too much incest without fresh infusions of non-Valyrian blood. One need not question Aenys's relative virility if you buy he's the son of Aegon and Rhaenys, because Alyssa may be a Velaryon... but she was half a Massey, and her mother was quite fertile. 

As others say, we'll never really know unless George decides to say at some point.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

The fly in the ointment in the theory is simply that Rhaenys had just the one child. Why not two or three or four with these lovers, if Aegon was fine with it? Better for the realm, after all. And no rumors of miscarriages or stillbirths or aborted pregnancies with her, either.

Because she died before such a thing could be reasonably well entertained?

Aenys was born in the midst of the Dornish War, and Rhaenys had to suckle him herself as the histories tell us, since he refused the milk given by wetnurses. That would have prevented Rhaenys from getting pregnant very shortly after Aenys' birth, and to properly do this kind of thing - and prevent the real impression that the queen's child is fathered by the king - they would have to be together at the time of conception. That would be twice as difficult in war, but also in peace times. We don't know any details, but Aenys being completely devastated after the death of his mother would imply they were very close, meaning Rhaenys and the boy likely spend 7-10 AC mostly at one of the residences - and if I had to guess that more likely on Dragonstone than the Aegonfort, which wouldn't have been the best place to raise a sickly child - while Aegon went on his progresses, spend time at the other residence, and flew out into the field to continue his war.

Also, one could imagine that Rhaenys was very concerned for the well-being of her sickly only child, hovering out the boy in those years and not being all that interested in trying again ... regardless with whom. Considering Visenya was the truly martial sister-wife, we could also assume that she was more with Aegon in the field in those wars, doing her decent share of castle burnings and the like while it fell to Rhaenys to sit the Iron Throne in the absence of both her siblings.

Overall, you get a 'divided we stand' vibe from the Targaryen siblings - that's also how they did it during the Conquest.

But I imagine the plan would have been to produce more children after the end of the war. She was the youngest of the siblings - I'm not sure we have a canonical birth year for her, but Visenya is now confirmed to have been to years Aegon's elder, so if Rhaenys was two years his younger (and not just one year) then she would have been not that old in 11 or 12 AC.

That Aegon eventually turned to Visenya to produce heirs was clearly unplanned and an emergency solution. It was a way to produce a spare should Aenys die - and looked like a possibility in 10 AC - as well as shut down the morons who were trying to push another queen on Aegon. Which, I imagine, would have further destabilized the internal Targaryen power machine in the wake of Rhaenys' death. Especially to the detriment of Visenya who, as a childless queen, could have easily be pushed aside in favor of a young and hot wife Aegon may have chosen ... especially if she had been fertile. Her dragon would have countered that to a point, but a queen's function is to breed, and if she doesn't do that, she has problems.

1 hour ago, Ran said:

All three were clearly low in fertility, likely the product of a bit too much incest without fresh infusions of non-Valyrian blood. One need not question Aenys's relative virility if you buy he's the son of Aegon and Rhaenys, because Alyssa may be a Velaryon... but she was half a Massey, and her mother was quite fertile. 

I don't know, Alyssa and Aenys are cousins twice over - closer cousins of unknown degree on the Velaryon side, since we have to assume that Aenys' grandmother Valaena Velaryon was Alyssa great-aunt or something, and somewhat more distant cousins on the Targaryen side if Valaena's Targaryen mother is also the mother of the first Daemon Velaryon (and a close relation of Aenys' immediate Targaryen ancestors - a sister rather than a distant cousin to Aelyx, Baelon, and Daemion, say).

Also, I guess we can tentatively assume that the Masseys were not exactly completely unrelated to the Velaryons at the time of the Aethan-Alarra match. One expects that the Velaryons intermarried with the local noble houses since they first came to the Narrow Sea, especially since so far nothing indicates they ever practiced sibling incest.

There is a funny thing there that Corlys and Rhaenys are also rather closely related on the Velaryon side. People tend to overlook that Rhaenys' grandmother and Corlys' grandfather (Alyssa and Daemon Velaryon) were siblings. They are second cousins on the Velaryon side - on the Targaryen side their most recent common ancestor would have that Targaryen mother of Valaena Velaryon - if she is also the ancestor of the main Velaryon branch.

And Jaehaerys-Alysanne turning out to be as fertile as they were - and Rhaena-Aegon also have success in the birthing bed quickly - with their mother not exactly bringing in something we could call 'fresh or unrelated blood' doesn't seem to underline for me that we should take away that the incest was Aegon's problem there - especially since we have no clue how inbred the Dragonstonian Targaryens were. The only incest matches that we know about are Gaemon-Daenys and Aegon-Elaena. The rest could all have married more distant relations or even outside the family altogether. And if some of them had Velaryon wives then the first such marriage would count as 'fresh blood' because we can assume that they didn't intermarry with Velaryons while they were back in Valyria.

Instead, I'd go with the idea that the Targaryens generally do have a fertility issue problem - something that's there and comes to the fore once in awhile.

The Conqueror would be the most extreme case if I'm right with the idea that he didn't father any children, but Maegor is another, then we have Aemon-Jocelyn, Aemma Arryn (who seems to have been the problem in her marriage with Viserys), Daemon with Rhea Royce (although 'no intercourse' may have been their problem), Naerys, possibly Daeron-Kiera and Aerion-Daenora (each only child despite the fact that they could have been married for years), Duncan-Jenny (if their marriage was childless), Jaehaerys-Shaera (who must have tried to have more than the two children they had, considering the length of their marriage), and, of course, Aerys-Rhaella.

Especially the later cases are interesting, considering that those Targaryens weren't particularly inbred compared to the earlier generations, even though Aerion then married a cousin and Jaehaerys II his sister. Duncan's Jenny wouldn't have been even a very distant relation, one imagines, so theirs should actually have been a rather fruitful marriage...

1 hour ago, Ran said:

As others say, we'll never really know unless George decides to say at some point.

Oh, I hope he never says anything about that thing. It is supposed to be vague. It would spoil the fun if he made proclamations about that - like him telling us when Mushroom was right or dead wrong.

But what would interest me is if George has ever said anything about who the presumptive heir of the Conqueror and his sister-wives was before Aenys' birth? Did you ever ask him about that? They had no children, but if Aegon died somebody would have to follow him. I guess the women would have taken over, but they would also have to make preparations for a next generation since they would not get any younger.

My guess is that it would go down to the second Daemon Velaryon (who seems to have been born around the Conquest) and Rogar Baratheon's father - who has to have been born around 1 AC if he is to have Rogar in 17 AC.

And about what we all would like to know more about is what kind of problems Jocelyn and Aemon had in the children department.

Because the point you make above - that Aegon and Rhaenys could have tried to have more children - should definitely be the case for Aemon and Jocelyn. Especially in light of the fact that their only child was a girl.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Lord Varys

Viserys I bedding Aemma when she was thirteen for no good reason is more likely the cause.

I agree about Aemon and Jocelyn. Personally, I would have suggested GRRM give Rhaenys a younger brother who died shortly before Aemon. Said son could even be named Aenys (because Jaehaerys and Alysanne naming a child after one parent but not the other is mean, especially what with Jaehaerys's downright Freudian "I don't need a second father" given the fact said father died when he was less than ten years old) or Boremund and ride either a new dragon or maybe Dreamfyre since the blue she-dragon isn't mentioned to be lazy the way Syrax is.

Plus, there should be more Targs named Aenys, Aenar, Aerion, Daenys, and Valaena in general.

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On 12/6/2020 at 6:01 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

If the belief leads us right back to blaming women for men's fertility problems, we might want to question it a bit. 

One Maegor wife had lot of fertile men to get her with child IIRC. So yeah, medieval or modern, it's true 

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9 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And didn't Taena "confess" under torture? As we know, torture always produces 100% reliable facts! :rolleyes:

I get the gist. But gut feeling tells me she and her dad were guilty. There are other torture confessions that aren't convincingly true 

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The case of Alys Harroway is somewhat dubious, sure, but the sheer number of people accused to be involved in the affair could be a hint that something was indeed going on there. But we cannot know because we cannot independently assess the hold Tyanna had over the king and the court at that time. If she had the power to ensure every accused and tortured person testified exactly what she wanted them to tell then it could all be fabrications.

If not, then (some of) the accusations might be true. I mean, the way Gyldayn tells us the story is that Tyanna went to Maegor with accusations and then he, Maegor himself, looked into the matter before arresting and torturing the people in question.

A rigged scenario there would only work if Maegor did not attend the torture sessions himself - unlikely - or if he was already sold that they were guilty before the torture sessions started - and the latter doesn't seem to be the case because he did not want to believe Tyanna originally.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/24/2020 at 8:50 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Stannis is uncomfortable around women in general. Plus, neither him nor Selyse like each other on a personal level. In fact, if it weren't for Melisandre I would think he's asexual.

If it weren't for Melisandre, I would think Stannis is either gay or asexual. But most likely gay.

On 12/6/2020 at 6:31 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:
On 11/24/2020 at 3:02 AM, HerblYY said:

Maegor was not sterile. He had 3 stillborn children, all of them poisoned by Tyanna. 

 

No they weren't all poisoned by Tyanna.

In any case, even if all of Maegor's children were aborted by Tyanna, it does't explain how he could be married to Ceryse Hightower for 10+ years and not have any children. It also doesn't explain why Maegor can be married to Tyanna and, again...not have any children

On 12/20/2020 at 4:32 AM, Lion of the West said:

I figured it was simply because they didn't want many children. Its not like all people crave lots of children. :dunno:

In the case of Aegon and his sisters, not having lots of children (or at least, a decent amount of children) is self-sabotage.

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3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

In the case of Aegon and his sisters, not having lots of children (or at least, a decent amount of children) is self-sabotage.

For the dynastic purposes that's very possible. But not necessarily for how they wanted to live their lives as human beings. I figure that most people feel a duty to their house and such. But this duty probably isn't the only think they care for or want to do with their lives.

Edited by Lion of the West
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