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Why did Aegon the Conqueror didn't have more children?


Angel Eyes
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32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course one can imagine this as a completely made up story (but I don't think we have to do that due to the Visenya anecdote - there may not have been an Ape Prince but we do have our Ape Queen now) but it is kind of odd to use a prince from a specific house for that - like 'Once upon a time there was a prince of the House of Windsor...'

If you do that, then people tend to ask 'What was his name, when did he live, who was his father', etc. When you say 'once there was an (English) prince' then this is less likely.

Also, Axell isn't a singer, nor is he telling a fairy-tale. His anecdote is supposed to tell something about Davos ... and that doesn't work all that well if the story is completely invented.

I gotta reread this story and meditate on it because, even after reading it, I still don't get the point of it.

Are we sure that it's supposed to be saying something about Davos?

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4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I gotta reread this story and meditate on it because, even after reading it, I still don't get the point of it.

Are we sure that it's supposed to be saying something about Davos?

That is the story:

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Queen Selyse had feasted Salla and his captains, the night before the fleet had set sail. Cotter Pyke had joined them, and four other high officers of the Night's Watch. Princess Shireen had been allowed to attend as well. As the salmon was being served, Ser Axell Florent had entertained the table with the tale of a Targaryen princeling who kept an ape as a pet. This prince liked to dress the creature in his dead son's clothes and pretend he was a child, Ser Axell claimed, and from time to time he would propose marriages for him. The lords so honored always declined politely, but of course they did decline. "Even dressed in silk and velvet, an ape remains an ape," Ser Axell said. "A wiser prince would have known that you cannot send an ape to do a man's work." The queen's men laughed, and several grinned at Davos. I am no ape, he'd thought. I am as much a lord as you, and a better man. But the memory still stung.

The point of it basically is that Davos is no proper nobleman/lord but merely Stannis' trained ape. People do not mock the king's ape when he is around, but they still know what Davos is and that he does not belong with people of high birth and proper lineage.

And that's the story Gyldayn gives us about Queen Visenya and her ape in FaB:

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Queen Visenya did not share her sister’s love of music and song. She was not without humor, however, and for many years kept her own fool, a hirsute hunchback called Lord Monkeyface whose antics amused her greatly. When he choked to death on a peach pit, the queen acquired an ape and dressed it in Lord Monkeyface’s clothing. “The new one is cleverer,” she was wont to say.

It seems to be pretty obvious to me that this little anecdote is the inspiration for Ser Axell's little story - somewhat adapted by him so better suited to humiliate Davos, but it is 'the grain of historical truth' of this story if there is any to be had.

Basically, the only difference between Axell's and Gyldayn's story is who the Targaryen in question was and who was replaced by an ape. The core part of the story - the ape of a Targaryen wearing human clothes - remains the same.

And the fact that Visenya apparently enjoyed her ape-fool better than poor Lord Monkeyface could definitely imply that the kind of antics the queen enjoyed with the ape involved using it to humiliate and confuse courtiers and lords she did not particularly like.

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On 2/10/2021 at 9:30 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

@Angel Eyes

I'm not entirely unsympathetic given the size of the family tree I'm currently working on. Nonetheless, the lack of cadet branches during the Dance really weakens the whole "golden age going to shit" vibe GRRM was clearly going for.

True. Even GRRM can't make sense of his family trees, just look at the story of the Estermont family tree from the wiki.

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On 2/13/2021 at 11:39 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is the story:

The point of it basically is that Davos is no proper nobleman/lord but merely Stannis' trained ape. People do not mock the king's ape when he is around, but they still know what Davos is and that he does not belong with people of high birth and proper lineage.

And that's the story Gyldayn gives us about Queen Visenya and her ape in FaB:

It seems to be pretty obvious to me that this little anecdote is the inspiration for Ser Axell's little story - somewhat adapted by him so better suited to humiliate Davos, but it is 'the grain of historical truth' of this story if there is any to be had.

Basically, the only difference between Axell's and Gyldayn's story is who the Targaryen in question was and who was replaced by an ape. The core part of the story - the ape of a Targaryen wearing human clothes - remains the same.

And the fact that Visenya apparently enjoyed her ape-fool better than poor Lord Monkeyface could definitely imply that the kind of antics the queen enjoyed with the ape involved using it to humiliate and confuse courtiers and lords she did not particularly like.

Thanks.

I used to be a fan of Queen Visenya but now it's like I'm always disappointed with her. Like the more that we learn about her, the more mean-spirited she becomes.

Now I know why Aegon could hardly stand her as he got older.

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14 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Thanks.

I used to be a fan of Queen Visenya but now it's like I'm always disappointed with her. Like the more that we learn about her, the more mean-spirited she becomes.

Now I know why Aegon could hardly stand her as he got older.

Well, she lived too long and was cursed with a son who basically turned into a monster while the son her brother favored wasn't up to the challenges of being king. It is not that surprising that a person who was always somewhat bitter and dark gets really nasty in old age when she realizes that she will indeed never get what she may have wanted - the love of her brother-husband, her son being their favorite, Maegor turning into a great guy, etc.

But for what it's worth it is clear that she remained a positive influence on Maegor - only after her death did he start to persecute his own family. The treatment of Prince Viserys seems something that was unthinkable while Visenya was still around. And Aegon the Uncrowned was slain in battle. That was a clean and honorable death.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But for what it's worth it is clear that she remained a positive influence on Maegor - only after her death did he start to persecute his own family. The treatment of Prince Viserys seems something that was unthinkable while Visenya was still around. And Aegon the Uncrowned was slain in battle. That was a clean and honorable death.

That is true. She was a positive influence. And she got along very poorly with Tyanna for a reason and undoubtedly tried to warn Maegor.

Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Visenya was really okay with Maegor becoming a kinslayer, death in battle.

Maegor's best bets were to either abdicate once Aegon became of age and announced his intentions on making good on his claim or to have just done everything in the name of being Prince Regent, Lord Protector and Hand of the King.

It always struck me weird that neither Visenya nor Maegor relieved Aegon and Rhaena at Crakehall or Casterly Rock.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

the son her brother favored wasn't up to the challenges of being king

I didn't get the impression that Aegon favored or liked either son over the other.

Not at all.

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17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Regardless, I find it hard to believe that Visenya was really okay with Maegor becoming a kinslayer, death in battle.

She helped him crush Aegon's uprising, and Aegon the Uncrowned died in a dragon battle. We don't have to imagine that Maegor wanted to kill him, it was just the consequences of their clash in mid-air.

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Maegor's best bets were to either abdicate once Aegon became of age and announced his intentions on making good on his claim or to have just done everything in the name of being Prince Regent, Lord Protector and Hand of the King.

But Maegor definitely wanted to be king ... and Visenya wanted to see her son on the Iron Throne, too. She is the kingmaker in this regard. Even if she didn't murder Aenys, she fetched Maegor back from Pentos, she helped him seize power on Dragonstone and then later in KL, and she kept his cause alive during his coma. She even arranged the Trial of Seven before Maegor got knocked out.

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

It always struck me weird that neither Visenya nor Maegor relieved Aegon and Rhaena at Crakehall or Casterly Rock.

Why should they? They were not in the game to help them ... nor did they view them as dangerous. One of the few redeeming qualities of Maegor is that he just usurped the throne in the beginning. He wasn't obsessed with eradicating his half-brother's bloodline preemptively. He allowed them to live and only turned on Aegon the Uncrowned when he made the first step, proclaimed himself king and tried to depose Maegor.

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I didn't get the impression that Aegon favored or liked either son over the other.

Oh, but that was very obvious. Aegon I always kept Aenys at his side, had him accompany him on his progresses, had him train with the Kingsguard, etc. ... whereas Maegor was, for most of the time, stuck with Visenya on Dragonstone, a fact that even earned him his moniker 'Prince of Dragonstone'.

Aegon did keep Maegor out of sight, and it seems he only gained some prominence in the Realm when he became that super warrior. Then his father acknowledged his accomplishments and used him in a couple of military campaigns. But that was pretty late in Aegon's reign - in the late 20s, early 30s.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should they? They were not in the game to help them ... nor did they view them as dangerous. One of the few redeeming qualities of Maegor is that he just usurped the throne in the beginning. He wasn't obsessed with eradicating his half-brother's bloodline preemptively. He allowed them to live and only turned on Aegon the Uncrowned when he made the first step, proclaimed himself king and tried to depose Maegor.

 A logical move would have been to bail them out and preemptively pressure them to bend knee and surrender their claims. On grounds like, Aenys lost the realm so if Maegor recovers it it is Maegor´s realm, not Aegon´s inheritance - but Aegon is still Maegor´s cousin so bailing him out is still priority.

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15 hours ago, Jaak said:

 A logical move would have been to bail them out and preemptively pressure them to bend knee and surrender their claims. On grounds like, Aenys lost the realm so if Maegor recovers it it is Maegor´s realm, not Aegon´s inheritance - but Aegon is still Maegor´s cousin so bailing him out is still priority.

That would be a logical move if Maegor cared about his nephew and niece ... and if he gave a damn about 'justifying' his usurpation. Maegor was of the view that the Iron Throne should go to the man strong enough to seize it. He had not interest in sugarcoating what he did.

And he tried to get them out of Casterly Rock but failed to do so.

Overall, Maegor dealt with Aegon the Uncrowned masterfully. He allowed him to turn himself into a rebel and pretender and then he finished him off.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be a logical move if Maegor cared about his nephew and niece ... and if he gave a damn about 'justifying' his usurpation. Maegor was of the view that the Iron Throne should go to the man strong enough to seize it. He had not interest in sugarcoating what he did.

And he tried to get them out of Casterly Rock but failed to do so.

Overall, Maegor dealt with Aegon the Uncrowned masterfully. He allowed him to turn himself into a rebel and pretender and then he finished him off.

And lost dragons and dragonriders in the process.

Maegor risked his life and wasted a month being wounded in his Battle of Seven.

Flying two dragons - Balerion and Vhagar - to Crakehall and either preemptively pressuring Aegon to bend knee or making him look bad for ingratitude could have made a lot of sense. Better than leaving a loose cannon at Casterly Rock.

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17 minutes ago, Jaak said:

And lost dragons and dragonriders in the process.

Maegor risked his life and wasted a month being wounded in his Battle of Seven.

Flying two dragons - Balerion and Vhagar - to Crakehall and either preemptively pressuring Aegon to bend knee or making him look bad for ingratitude could have made a lot of sense. Better than leaving a loose cannon at Casterly Rock.

Exactly!

 

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Well in my view Aenys isn't Aegon's son and is Rhaenys with a singer or another man, but Aegon didn't give a shit because for him the child has his blood with Rhaenys being his sister. Aegon wouldn't have cared and its clear he spoiled Aenys and loved him very much ( he cried when Rhaena was born cause she reminded of him of her) compared to Maegor we don't know but it was distant has Visenya raised Maegor. I don't think he is a clone based on magic, well not the way I think. Aegon and Visenya both agreed to have Maegor based on Visenya's ritual of Valyrian magic. So in essence I think Maegor is Aegon's trueborn son thru magic in my honest opinion. It was a ritual similar to Shadow babies though maybe different since it's Valyrian magic and requires sexual intercourse , thus my theory that Maegor is Aegon trueborn son. 

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On 2/20/2021 at 2:44 PM, Jaak said:

And lost dragons and dragonriders in the process.

Maegor risked his life and wasted a month being wounded in his Battle of Seven.

Flying two dragons - Balerion and Vhagar - to Crakehall and either preemptively pressuring Aegon to bend knee or making him look bad for ingratitude could have made a lot of sense. Better than leaving a loose cannon at Casterly Rock.

Prince Aegon wasn't yet a dragonrider (and wouldn't become one until he stole away with Quicksilver while Maegor was campaigning against the Faith), and Rhaena's dragon was safely in King's Landing, separated from its rider (King Aenys had feared that Rhaena having a dragon would make the dragonless Aegon look weak/illegitimate). Why would Maegor care what happened to his niece and nephew? They're never going to fight battles on his behalf, and even if they bend the knee, there's nothing stopping them from reneging on that oath and trying to usurp him later, as he did them. They're a bigger threat to him if they are reunited with their dragons in the capital, so the most prudent course is to keep them locked up in Crakehall and Casterly Rock as he can, as that leaves the majority of a continent between them and their dragons.

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On 2/20/2021 at 9:44 PM, Jaak said:

And lost dragons and dragonriders in the process.

Maegor risked his life and wasted a month being wounded in his Battle of Seven.

Flying two dragons - Balerion and Vhagar - to Crakehall and either preemptively pressuring Aegon to bend knee or making him look bad for ingratitude could have made a lot of sense. Better than leaving a loose cannon at Casterly Rock.

Maegor never gave a rat's ass about his sister-in-law or their children. When Alyssa Velaryon wasn't on Dragonstone but Driftmark when he returned from Pentos he just shrugged.

Aegon the Uncrowned was basically just a fly to him, not really an asset he cared to use.

On 3/1/2021 at 12:23 PM, Aegon the Restorer said:

Prince Aegon wasn't yet a dragonrider (and wouldn't become one until he stole away with Quicksilver while Maegor was campaigning against the Faith), and Rhaena's dragon was safely in King's Landing, separated from its rider (King Aenys had feared that Rhaena having a dragon would make the dragonless Aegon look weak/illegitimate). Why would Maegor care what happened to his niece and nephew? They're never going to fight battles on his behalf, and even if they bend the knee, there's nothing stopping them from reneging on that oath and trying to usurp him later, as he did them. They're a bigger threat to him if they are reunited with their dragons in the capital, so the most prudent course is to keep them locked up in Crakehall and Casterly Rock as he can, as that leaves the majority of a continent between them and their dragons.

Maegor did demand that they be handed over to him when they were at the Rock, but he didn't push the issue.

As I said, he was pretty smart about them. He gave them enough rope to hang themselves. When Aegon started his campaign he had the pretext to destroy him and that he did.

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19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

What pretext was that?

That Aegon was trying to set himself up as king. Maegor was king now, and Aegon turned himself into a rebel and a pretender.

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  • 1 month later...

Fab revealed that thess rumours are completely false.

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"You are a fool and a weakling, nephew. Do you think any man would ever have dared speak so to your father?"

Visenya considers aenys the son of aegon the conqueror, never would she and maegor have accepted the son of a fucking singer as their king.

They only usurped the throne when aenys proved incompetent as a monarch. Nothing to do with the case of rhaenyra and the children of alicent.

 

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1 hour ago, Hug-hammer said:

Fab revealed that thess rumours are completely false.

Visenya considers aenys the son of aegon the conqueror, never would she and maegor have accepted the son of a fucking singer as their king.

They only usurped the throne when aenys proved incompetent as a monarch. Nothing to do with the case of rhaenyra and the children of alicent.

Visenya also publicly claimed Aegon the Conqueror was 'her love' ... something that is at least questionable considering how they effectively lived apart when Aegon died.

And of course could Visenya not state who and what Aenys was in an environment where witnesses could hear it and historians eventually record it. If it came out that the mighty Conqueror couldn't father any children, then the Targaryen dynasty would collapse and their Conquest would be gone in a fortnight. The idea isn't that merely Aenys isn't the son of Aegon but Maegor, too.

The idea that Visenya would only accept a biological son of Aegon's as her king is also pretty spurious considering Aenys still was the child of her fellow sister-wife Rhaenys. And the child her brother-husband and king raised as his son and had formally named his heir. But then - Visenya undermining Aenys on every turn and Maegor's childlish polygamy are the things that triggered Aenys' downfall. It is not that they do not share a good chunk of the blame. The Faith Militant Uprising started because Maegor could not accept that his wife couldn't give him children ... and his mother actually assisted him in getting 'a new wife'.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/26/2021 at 3:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

And of course could Visenya not state who and what Aenys was in an environment where witnesses could hear it and historians eventually record it. If it came out that the mighty Conqueror couldn't father any children, then the Targaryen dynasty would collapse and their Conquest would be gone in a fortnight. The idea isn't that merely Aenys isn't the son of Aegon but Maegor, too.

 

If Aegon could not produce children, the throne would have passed to his older sister Visenya and her children, then to his younger sister Rhaenys.
Although Aegon's infertility could have caused a great scandal in the 6 crowns.
I am not as alarmist as you.
The lords had already sworn fealty to the Iron Throne and specifically to House Targaryen (Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys) and therefore had to abide by the laws of inheritance which are considered sacred in Westeros,
They are not Dothraki savages.
And the Targaryens had dragons and they are the ones who unified Westeros, Visenya in addition to being a dragoness she was the most fearsome fighter is respected in the kingdom.
The lords would have accepted her as their queen much more than a rhaenyra for example.
The idea that they will only accept biological children of Aegon makes no sense, as long as the child has the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, can ride a dragon and looks like a Targaryen.
Even if he's not his son, that won't be a problem.
All these theories that Aegon and Visenya are doing everything to hide the parentage of their children or supposed children are not very relevant. 

And if Maegor is not also from aegon, do you mean that Visenya has also committed adultery?

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By the time of the Conquest, Targaryens had acted like Westeroshi lords in many things: abolishing slavery, first night, faith of the Seven, son inheritance. After all Aegon inherited the lordship of Dragonstone, not his elder sister Visenya. Even though I have to admit early Targaryen queens were very active in ruling, especially Visenya and Rhaenys. Still a king not producing heirs is a problem. Same for a queen ruling Westeros. She would become a Maegor, burning and killing people who dont accept her right to rule.

Also, FAB records Aegon's feelings for his wifes, not their feelings for him or their feelings for each other. Could be a case that Visenya felt always neglected by Aegon and so became more stern or that she was worried that Aegon would cast her aside for her inability to birth children or that she knew that Rhaenys was having lovers but kept this a secret to ensure their legacy 

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